Byron
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Post by Byron on Aug 25, 2009 12:13:57 GMT -5
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Post by kiwi on Aug 25, 2009 14:21:53 GMT -5
This article states workers tell the friends who to marry and that the internet is strictly prohibited. It also says that convention meals are "carefully scripted". LOL! what a joke! In other words lies are being posted on VOT?
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Post by Geoff on Aug 25, 2009 15:10:32 GMT -5
The article is rather full of factual errors - a pity that. You'd think people would do the research to get it right.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2009 17:31:50 GMT -5
If Pastor Ken "phreak4jesus" Armstrong wrote that article, it is strange that the style is not like his other writings. Plus, anyone who is writing a serious article will interview the people they skewer. Here's a sample on one of his sex writings:
Oh, baby, oh!
Did you know that God has a book in the Bible that talks all about how great sex is? Oh, there are some scholars who say that the Song of Solomon (click here) is all about the relationship of God with his people, but even if that's true, he compares it to how great sex is.
Obviously, God thinks he did a pretty good job when he invented sex. For the record, we agree. Also obviously, he wants us to really enjoy sex!
But there's a catch. (Awww, just when it was getting good!)
You know, in life, you can grab adventure, and have fun. You can make money and do whatever you want. But if you don't do those things with Jesus as your highest priority, you keep wanting more and more. You keep grabbing for something else. Nothing quite makes it all work except getting the Jesus-power of the Holy Spirit down deep inside of you.
With that Jesus thing going on inside of you, suddenly everything clicks! and the things you do totally rock and satisfy. He doesn't rule out the adventure, fun, and stuff. He just gives you the juice to get what really makes it all work.
Want to have really great, hot, steamy sex? Want it to feel like they make it look in the movies? Then refer to your user's manual, written by the Manufacturer. Save the sex for a marriage, and commit that marriage to God. Maybe you bought into the get-it-all-now media concepts designed to turn you into mindless consumers and willing sex partners. Horny old guys like Hugh Hefner, Ron Jeremy, and Larry Flint created the culture you're buying into - not cool people your age, like you think. They created huge media empires and spent billions of dollars, and they did it mainly because they wanted lots of willling young girls putting out all the time, so they'd get what they wanted. (Just looking at their pictures in the links above should cool you off faster than having your mom fold your underwear in front of your friends.)
If you're already hooking up at parties or doing it with FWBs, or even if you have a special someone who could end up being "the one," today is a new day. Decide what you really want in your life.
Grab the moment? Sure, you can do that. But when you're taking meds for your STDs, or you lost out on the fun of being young and free because what you were doing made a baby, or you're a burned out skank who can't even pay a total loser to hang out with you, you're gonna ask yourself if it was such a great idea. You'll remember the day you read this and you'll say, "Oh, snap!, DaPhreak was right!"
Or you can take your time (and lots of cold showers) and find a person who is seriously forever committed to you. The two of you lock in the vertical link to the King of the Universe and let him fill up every pore of your bodies with his unmatchable milk 'n' honey goodness. You stand before God and the people who care about you, and you promise to be one couple tapped into the source of everything good in the universe.
Then ... oh, baby, oh ... go crazy!
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Post by What Hat on Aug 25, 2009 20:16:59 GMT -5
Fits right in with VOT and hope they keep it on the site. I remember the "Plain Truth" from when I was a kid listening to Garner Ted Armstrong and 'The Woorrrld To-MORR-ow' on AM radio. It was quite fascinating listening for an 8 year old and the world would have been a lot more exciting place if any of his wild theories would have been true. Oh, yeah. They kicked out the Armstrongs. Where have we heard that before?
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Post by JO on Aug 26, 2009 17:59:39 GMT -5
This looks like a fake written especially for VOT.
Can you verify that Ken Armstrong wrote it?
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Post by ilylo on Aug 26, 2009 18:08:40 GMT -5
Can you verify it is fake?
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Post by JO on Aug 26, 2009 19:00:21 GMT -5
Don't need to.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2009 19:25:50 GMT -5
It probably was included in The Plain Truth.
If Armstrong had anything to do with the article, it was to read it, put a title on it and add a couple of comments at the beginning and the end. The plain truth about the article is bound to be kept well out of plain sight.
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Post by sharon on Aug 26, 2009 19:55:01 GMT -5
This article states workers tell the friends who to marry and that the internet is strictly prohibited. It also says that convention meals are "carefully scripted". LOL! what a joke! I wonder if carefully scripted meals means that the cook keeps a running recipe of what was served on set days of the conv. and how many were fed that day, so the next year they will have some mathematical equations to come up with when buying groceries for next year or next conv. I
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Post by ilylo on Aug 26, 2009 20:48:55 GMT -5
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Post by JO on Aug 26, 2009 22:03:23 GMT -5
It seems that this article was published by "The Plain Truth". I don't know who would take such a magazine seriously though. From Wikipedia: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Editorial impact This outline warning of the "end times" had been published before the end of World War II when Herbert W. Armstrong fully expected Hitler to become victorious. In the May/June edition of 1941, Herbert W. Armstrong wrote (using emphasis shown) that: Since the last issue many things have occurred, every one in accordance with prophecy! ... War events thunder on, rapidly approaching the prophesied climax!... Hitler now emerges as the "BEAST" of Revelation! Bible prophecy shows the Roman Axis forces will take Egypt, Suez, Palestine, — even Gibraltar. Britain will go down. And, unless we turn as a nation to God our beloved United States will have to go under ... we lack TOTAL Defense, without which we shall never win. We are at the END of the present order. ARMAGEDDON is now just a short way off.
According to Armstrong there was one key element that had to occur before the return of Jesus Christ as Messiah and that was the rebuilding of the Temple by the Jews. Since the location of the Temple had been in that part of Jerusalem which was a part of the modern day kingdom of Jordan, Armstrong believed that Israel would eventually retake that part of Jerusalem in order for construction to commence. On page 4 of the October 1958 edition, The Plain Truth magazine reported that: A temple or sanctuary is yet to be built by the Jews in Jerusalem. It shall happen in less than 14 years from now (1972).When Israel gained control of East Jerusalem in the Six Day War, Herbert W. Armstrong wrote in a 1967 editorial in The Plain Truth that: There will be a Jewish Temple built in Jerusalem, with animal sacrifices once again being offered -- probably within about four-and-one-half years. It is going to take some time to build such a Temple. And I don't see how they have another month to spare. ... There will very soon be a Temple in Jerusalem, with daily sacrifices once again being offered.In Australia this editorial was read by Michael Dennis Rohan who decided to act upon this same information and cause the destruction of the Al Aqsa mosque which he believed was preventing the Temple from being rebuilt. The aftereffects of his attempted arson are still being experienced today in attacks upon Israel which are carried out to avenge this act. The cause of the arson was, of course, not the State of Israel, but a person's attempt to carry out his interpretation of the editorial policy of The Plain Truth magazine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plain_Truth
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 26, 2009 22:41:44 GMT -5
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Post by JO on Aug 27, 2009 0:10:52 GMT -5
Maybe someone should let Ken Armstrong knows how the innies reviewed his article on the TMB so he could come and ask questions for himself about the 2x2s ministry and church on here. No point Nathan. I'm fairly certain he hasn't written it with the approval of innies in mind. We would like to think a Christian pastor cares whether his writing is truthful or not, but I suspect he doesn't because that article is so skewed it's almost laughable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 0:11:11 GMT -5
I think the article deserves a thorough analysis from an insider. I would like to do it but don't have the time.
This guy claims excellent sources ("good and solid") and then names the KLewis book. I wonder if he is interested in buying a share in the Brooklyn Bridge? He should have gone right to the source, ask a few workers or friends, or have a look at the Dr. Jaenen book, written by an eminent scholar. Including the Lewis book would then make it a fair and balanced article.
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Post by gray on Aug 27, 2009 1:47:00 GMT -5
It seems that this article was published by "The Plain Truth". I don't know who would take such a magazine seriously though. From Wikipedia: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Editorial impact This outline warning of the "end times" had been published before the end of World War II when Herbert W. Armstrong fully expected Hitler to become victorious. In the May/June edition of 1941, Herbert W. Armstrong wrote (using emphasis shown) that: Since the last issue many things have occurred, every one in accordance with prophecy! ... War events thunder on, rapidly approaching the prophesied climax!... Hitler now emerges as the "BEAST" of Revelation! Bible prophecy shows the Roman Axis forces will take Egypt, Suez, Palestine, — even Gibraltar. Britain will go down. And, unless we turn as a nation to God our beloved United States will have to go under ... we lack TOTAL Defense, without which we shall never win. We are at the END of the present order. ARMAGEDDON is now just a short way off.
According to Armstrong there was one key element that had to occur before the return of Jesus Christ as Messiah and that was the rebuilding of the Temple by the Jews. Since the location of the Temple had been in that part of Jerusalem which was a part of the modern day kingdom of Jordan, Armstrong believed that Israel would eventually retake that part of Jerusalem in order for construction to commence. On page 4 of the October 1958 edition, The Plain Truth magazine reported that: A temple or sanctuary is yet to be built by the Jews in Jerusalem. It shall happen in less than 14 years from now (1972).When Israel gained control of East Jerusalem in the Six Day War, Herbert W. Armstrong wrote in a 1967 editorial in The Plain Truth that: There will be a Jewish Temple built in Jerusalem, with animal sacrifices once again being offered -- probably within about four-and-one-half years. It is going to take some time to build such a Temple. And I don't see how they have another month to spare. ... There will very soon be a Temple in Jerusalem, with daily sacrifices once again being offered.In Australia this editorial was read by Michael Dennis Rohan who decided to act upon this same information and cause the destruction of the Al Aqsa mosque which he believed was preventing the Temple from being rebuilt. The aftereffects of his attempted arson are still being experienced today in attacks upon Israel which are carried out to avenge this act. The cause of the arson was, of course, not the State of Israel, but a person's attempt to carry out his interpretation of the editorial policy of The Plain Truth magazine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Plain_Truth In case you are interested, there is far more recent info; www.equip.org/articles/the-worldwide-church-of-god-resurrected-into-orthodoxyThe Worldwide Church of God: Resurrected into Orthodoxy DW070 Doug LeBlanc Herbert W. Armstrong died in 1986 at the patriarchal age of 93, and his Worldwide Church of God has been burying portions of his theology ever since. During this decade-long funeral, the WCG itself has experienced an institutional suffering and dying, losing 130 or more of its 450 ministers and seeing at least 30,000 members scatter into 25 splinter churches or out of church life entirely. ...
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Post by gray on Aug 27, 2009 1:48:14 GMT -5
www.equip.org/articles/the-price-of-changeThe Price of Change A Follow-up on the Worldwide Church of God JAW060 John A. Peters This article first appeared in the News Watch column of the Christian Research Journal, volume 28, number 6 (2005). For further information or to subscribe to the Christian Research Journal go to: www.equip.orgThe Worldwide Church of God (WCG) began its voyage into the pale of mainstream Christianity nearly two decades ago. Its continuing journey is remarkable, as are the splinter groups that left the WCG to remain true to the teachings of WCG founder Herbert W. Armstrong. ...
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Post by gray on Aug 27, 2009 1:48:52 GMT -5
www.equip.org/articles/two-by-twosTwo By Twos Also known as: Go-Preachers, The Jesus Way, Cooneyites, and Christian Convention DC690 CRI Statement Research for this report has come from CRI's files, the Spiritual Counterfeits Project in Berkeley, from J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions, Heresies Exposed by W. C. Irvine, from limited contact with members of the movement itself, and from generous contributions and correspondence from Mrs. Mary Schoeff of Cheney, Washington. Because these people do not publish any material on their collective beliefs, and because the movement is a loosely-knit group of semi-autonomous house churches with no real central headquarters and whose ministers are traveling preachers, it is difficult to establish absolutely authoritative information on this group. The only way one can ascertain their beliefs is to study carefully their personal correspondence and meeting notes, attend numerous meetings, and personally interview its ministers and adherents. Even then doctrinal analysis is hindered by the group's significant lack of preaching on and interest in doctrine, which may cause some variation in beliefs within the group itself. ...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 6:56:28 GMT -5
On one hand it is "loosely-knit" and "semi-autonomous", and on the other hand people's lives are dominated by the workers. Which is it?
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Post by alia on Aug 27, 2009 8:49:00 GMT -5
I don't think many people read that magazine, so I wouldn't be too concerned about it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 8:52:45 GMT -5
Does the old saying "it takes one to know one" hold true in the cult business? Here's what someone is saying about "The Plain Truth": The Hottest New Cult Tara and I received a free subscription to “Plain Truth”, a Christian magazine. We had never heard of the magazine, but the articles were interesting. There were certain topics the editor seemed to like to constantly revisit, but the magazine as a whole had a reasonably broad, balanced and current coverage of topics.
In the last few issues, some of the articles started getting a little strange. They argued unconventional views more strongly than in the past. We began to look at Plain Truth Magazine as interesting, but possibly dangerous. Then we received a notice from the publisher that prompted me to do a bit more research…From: stein.everybody.org/journal/posts/the-hottest-new-cult/
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Post by ClayRandall on Aug 27, 2009 9:06:25 GMT -5
I've never been published in any journal, scientific or otherwise; however, I think I've done enough reading in my lifetime to recognize writing that is overly sensational and misleading.
Despite what I think are its shortcomings, the 2x2 Fellowship does not warrant comparisons to apocalyptic death cults. To do so is simply irresponsible.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2009 9:44:51 GMT -5
I think the article deserves a thorough analysis from an insider. I would like to do it but don't have the time. This guy claims excellent sources ("good and solid") and then names the KLewis book. I wonder if he is interested in buying a share in the Brooklyn Bridge? He should have gone right to the source, ask a few workers or friends, or have a look at the Dr. Jaenen book, written by an eminent scholar. Including the Lewis book would then make it a fair and balanced article. There are just a few reputable sources that have written about our group. Their articles contain errors but at least the authors have a good reputation for fact checking and are considered reliable sources. If more authors checked these sources first we would have fewer problems. Here is what I sent to the editor of Plain Truth, not that he will bother to read it or even see it (state of email these days). As a member of the "No Name" cult I can state that the author Ken Armstrong appears to have used a couple of highly unreliable sources for his information. Kathleen Lewis's book is a self-published work. The book is loaded with generalizations without backup, as is Ken's article.
He could perhaps have checked J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions, where our group is listed under the name Two by Twos. Another reliable source of information is; www.religioustolerance.org/chr_2x2.htm
Wikipedia has an article about our group called "Christian Conventions". As it was recently updated it's somewhat off but not bad.
You'll see the articles all have a common linkage point which is the role of William Irvine in its beginning.
Please review these articles and you will obtain a different perspective.
You'll find me as a frequent contributor on <name removed>. What a surprise as our group would never allow such a thing according to Mr. Armstrong.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2009 9:52:21 GMT -5
www.equip.org/articles/two-by-twosTwo By Twos Also known as: Go-Preachers, The Jesus Way, Cooneyites, and Christian Convention DC690 CRI Statement Research for this report has come from CRI's files, the Spiritual Counterfeits Project in Berkeley, from J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions, Heresies Exposed by W. C. Irvine, from limited contact with members of the movement itself, and from generous contributions and correspondence from Mrs. Mary Schoeff of Cheney, Washington. Because these people do not publish any material on their collective beliefs, and because the movement is a loosely-knit group of semi-autonomous house churches with no real central headquarters and whose ministers are traveling preachers, it is difficult to establish absolutely authoritative information on this group. The only way one can ascertain their beliefs is to study carefully their personal correspondence and meeting notes, attend numerous meetings, and personally interview its ministers and adherents. Even then doctrinal analysis is hindered by the group's significant lack of preaching on and interest in doctrine, which may cause some variation in beliefs within the group itself. ... Other than the conclusion, which I believe should be prefaced by a statement of the implicit bias of the author, this is probably the most accurate and well written article I've seen on our group. Could some of you read it and indicate what you think? I might be wrong. Made my day after that Plain Truth botch-up.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2009 10:06:31 GMT -5
In case the article changes, the version on which I or anyone else should comment is attached here. (Getting wiser about this after the way the wiki article was screwed up.) PDF supplied by DCI. Attachments:
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Post by gray on Aug 27, 2009 12:27:28 GMT -5
www.equip.org/articles/two-by-twosTwo By Twos Also known as: Go-Preachers, The Jesus Way, Cooneyites, and Christian Convention DC690 CRI Statement Research for this report has come from CRI's files, the Spiritual Counterfeits Project in Berkeley, from J. Gordon Melton's Encyclopedia of American Religions, Heresies Exposed by W. C. Irvine, from limited contact with members of the movement itself, and from generous contributions and correspondence from Mrs. Mary Schoeff of Cheney, Washington. Because these people do not publish any material on their collective beliefs, and because the movement is a loosely-knit group of semi-autonomous house churches with no real central headquarters and whose ministers are traveling preachers, it is difficult to establish absolutely authoritative information on this group. The only way one can ascertain their beliefs is to study carefully their personal correspondence and meeting notes, attend numerous meetings, and personally interview its ministers and adherents. Even then doctrinal analysis is hindered by the group's significant lack of preaching on and interest in doctrine, which may cause some variation in beliefs within the group itself. ... Other than the conclusion, which I believe should be prefaced by a statement of the implicit bias of the author, this is probably the most accurate and well written article I've seen on our group. Could some of you read it and indicate what you think? I might be wrong. Made my day after that Plain Truth botch-up. Thank you for your ‘expert’ endorsement of CRI DC690, What. That is a significant step forward for the TMB viewers. Within that document you have endoresed as ‘making your day,’ it states, “from limited contact with members of the movement itself…” That limited contact is a typical response from 2x2s who have been asked for their input by researchers. It does not suggest that the researchers did not seek professing 2x2 input. If the 2x2s fail to reply to requests regarding their doctrines, the results unavidably are these; “The only way one can ascertain their beliefs is to study carefully their personal correspondence and meeting notes, attend numerous meetings, and personally interview its ministers and adherents. Even then doctrinal analysis is hindered by the group's significant lack of preaching on and interest in doctrine, which may cause some variation in beliefs within the group itself.” And the conclusions drawn from available sources, while 2x2 ministers historically refuse to clearly state their doctrines even to their converts, are these; “Paul said, "I have determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified" (I Cor. 2:2). Paul believed that what was essential for salvation was meeting the Lord who died for our sins. With their emphasis on the manner of the walk, their neglect of the atoning work of Jesus, their very shaky stand on the nature of Christ, their exclusiveness, and the focus on a life-style rather than a living Lord, leads us to conclude that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, for someone to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through this ministry. From what we have learned so far, the Two by Two ministry is not only a much to be avoided legalistic trap, it is also a heretical cult "denying even the Lord that bought them" (see 2 Pet. 2:1).”
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2009 12:56:34 GMT -5
Of course, I do disagree with the Conclusion, as I said. However, given that the conclusion is based on a certain value bias quite in conflict with ours, and that that bias is understood, I don't really have a problem with it. The same as if a Buddhist or Taoist said I was on the wrong path; wouldn't really have much significance would it.
I'm never perturbed by assessments of our belief; the only thing that gets my dander up is when those beliefs are misstated in the first place. I believe that the article author took pains to describe or characterize preaching as it has been preached. As opposed to saying "they say Jesus was just a man" or some such gross distortion.
As far as 'expert' endorsement I assume you are being facetious so I won't tell you why I'm not an expert.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2009 13:16:22 GMT -5
Sounds good What.
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