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Post by oh on Dec 3, 2006 12:36:42 GMT -5
That's a question you need to ask the Author because none of us made that dictionary.
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Post by How Come on Dec 3, 2006 14:39:12 GMT -5
That's a question you need to ask the Author because none of us made that dictionary. What a cop-out. You all can sure argue about the scriptural meanings. The same translators of those scriptures added a dictionary to help you understand meanings and definitions in context of what you are arguing about. Maybe you should ask the Authors of the Bible what it means. ("you have to ask the author" Duh) Stupid is as Stupid does. If you can't accept that it is there to help you understand the concepts for which you are aruging then perhaps you should not believe in anything from the Bible.
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Post by dictionary on Dec 3, 2006 18:39:03 GMT -5
That's a question you need to ask the Author because none of us made that dictionary. The same translators of those scriptures added a dictionary' I have yet to read a KJ dictionary . Was it authorized by King James or what??I believe some religious words are explained in dictionarys to explain what the majority of the peoples are attempting to convey, when certain words are used. An english dictionary, traces the usage of words and explains the various thoughts the speaker is trying to convey.
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Post by Truthstater on Dec 3, 2006 18:47:05 GMT -5
More false statements will never make you right. Liar is as liar does.
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Post by not robbing God on Dec 3, 2006 21:56:23 GMT -5
You just said "I refuse to disreguard the importance of stating they are equal and therefore EACH can be reguarded seperately and individually." by making Jesus equal to God. To me "God" is NOT just a name- it is also the absolute highest divine nature, essence, power (what ever you want to call it) that is ONLY possessed in it's purest form by The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. We as humans can possess some of this nature, but ONLY the Father, Son and Holy Spirit possess this in it's pure totallity so that we can worship all three equally and individually- yet as one God (or Godhead if you will). HFA I can appreciate what you are saying, but there is a misunderstanding of the context that I stated what I stated, and seeing we are having wknd off, I will save my reply for later. But nonethe less Jesus said,... that He considered it NOT 'robbery' to be equal to God. That is what Jesus said, and we believe Him. Why do we believe Him? Because we have already been made to know that God gave all things to His Son.
How could God give all things to His Son? Because God is infinite, and His riches are infinite {God, as we already have agreed is a seperate being from His Son, right?} Ok, God gave all things to His Son, really is saying that He is giving His Son all He has, yet, God is infinite, and infinite riches are NEVER ending {see: the parable of the barrel of oil, it never ceased supplying ,etc} therfore God still has infinite riches.
God allowed Jesus to take our place on calvary. Now , He is in heaven and God has given Him His throne....they are devoted to each other, and Jesus did not feel it 'robbery' to being equal to God. Since Jesus is able to understand what He meant by that statement, and I do not fully understand it, because I have not seen God, but Jesus has. If we subtract some of what Jesus said, and , saying He was[{notice left out}[not feeling it robbery]equal to God . It may have raised some questions about this not actually being the case, but as Jesus said, He was given permission {He did not 'rob' God} to have all things the Father had, It is plain that ALL things did originally belong to God, and that Jesus at some point in time, received all things from God.
wow I think I may have lost you as this subject is quite a bit over my head, but I was doing my best, MY FRIEND , to explain what it is that I am meditating on, as far as this subject is concerned, It often seems easy to comprehend for me, but when I try to explain it, it gets way to wordy, and is still quite lacking in all it should be, I HOPE you accept my feeble effort and please feel free to share your thots, too.This verse definitely shows that Jesus was illustrating that there was a ''infinite'' being, that He was manifesting in this world. It is illogical that Jesus is saying that he was not robbing ''Himself'', if one was purporting that this is what He meant. Surely not.
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Post by I Thank What on Dec 4, 2006 13:16:44 GMT -5
The same translators of those scriptures added a dictionary' I have yet to read a KJ dictionary . Was it authorized by King James or what??I believe some religious words are explained in dictionarys to explain what the majority of the peoples are attempting to convey, when certain words are used. An english dictionary, traces the usage of words and explains the various thoughts the speaker is trying to convey.I think what the poster referencing the KJV bible dictionary ment was that it is in the back of our bibles. I never really looked up all the definitions in back of my KJV Bible until now. And yes I do see the words trinty and incarnation used under "GOD". Reading this also points to certain scriptures which helps one to understand context. Humm not being a trinitarian I am now forced to study this subject more.
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Post by Hope For All on Dec 4, 2006 15:43:45 GMT -5
I can appreciate what you are saying, but there is a misunderstanding of the context that I stated what I stated, and seeing we are having wknd off, I will save my reply for later. But nonethe less Jesus said,... that He considered it NOT 'robbery' to be equal to God. That is what Jesus said, and we believe Him. Why do we believe Him? Because we have already been made to know that God gave all things to His Son.
How could God give all things to His Son? Because God is infinite, and His riches are infinite {God, as we already have agreed is a seperate being from His Son, right?} Ok, God gave all things to His Son, really is saying that He is giving His Son all He has, yet, God is infinite, and infinite riches are NEVER ending {see: the parable of the barrel of oil, it never ceased supplying ,etc} therfore God still has infinite riches.
God allowed Jesus to take our place on calvary. Now , He is in heaven and God has given Him His throne....they are devoted to each other, and Jesus did not feel it 'robbery' to being equal to God. Since Jesus is able to understand what He meant by that statement, and I do not fully understand it, because I have not seen God, but Jesus has. If we subtract some of what Jesus said, and , saying He was[{notice left out}[not feeling it robbery]equal to God . It may have raised some questions about this not actually being the case, but as Jesus said, He was given permission {He did not 'rob' God} to have all things the Father had, It is plain that ALL things did originally belong to God, and that Jesus at some point in time, received all things from God.
wow I think I may have lost you as this subject is quite a bit over my head, but I was doing my best, MY FRIEND , to explain what it is that I am meditating on, as far as this subject is concerned, It often seems easy to comprehend for me, but when I try to explain it, it gets way to wordy, and is still quite lacking in all it should be, I HOPE you accept my feeble effort and please feel free to share your thots, too.This verse definitely shows that Jesus was illustrating that there was a ''infinite'' being, that He was manifesting in this world. It is illogical that Jesus is saying that he was not robbing ''Himself'', if one was purporting that this is what He meant. Surely not. One of the keys to my faith in the full Diety of Christ, was when I understood and accepted the absolute perfect humility that Jesus has. Would (or could) Jesus ever say "I am equal to my Father?" If he did would he still be a perfect son? I don't think so. Once I realized that he would never boast about who he really was- all the verses where Jesus seems to be avoiding manifesting his full divinity take on a different meaning- one of true humility. HFA
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Post by howabout on Dec 4, 2006 19:34:52 GMT -5
This verse definitely shows that Jesus was illustrating that there was a ''infinite'' being, that He was manifesting in this world. It is illogical that Jesus is saying that he was not robbing ''Himself'', if one was purporting that this is what He meant. Surely not. One of the keys to my faith in the full Diety of Christ, was when I understood and accepted the absolute perfect humility that Jesus has. Would (or could) Jesus ever say "I am equal to Jesus seems to be avoiding manifesting his full divinity take on a different meaning- one of true humility.A better thought, would be to consider the humility of God, first. So how does God the Father remain humble, isn't He MOST humble as anyone. It really is inspiring to think of all that the 'infinite God' bestowed on His Son, truly gave Him a wonderful place and He also gave Jesus power. I think that God absolutely trusts His Son, so much and this is a wonderful demonstration of their heavenly relationship.
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Post by Hope For All on Dec 4, 2006 20:38:49 GMT -5
One of the keys to my faith in the full Deity of Christ, was when I understood and accepted the absolute perfect humility that Jesus has. Would (or could) Jesus ever say "I am equal to Jesus seems to be avoiding manifesting his full divinity take on a different meaning- one of true humility.A better thought, would be to consider the humility of God, first. So how does God the Father remain humble, isn't He MOST humble as anyone. It really is inspiring to think of all that the 'infinite God' bestowed on His Son, truly gave Him a wonderful place and He also gave Jesus power. I think that God absolutely trusts His Son, so much and this is a wonderful demonstration of their heavenly relationship. I have no references that comes to mind that says God is humble. But Jesus was the express manifestation of God. I believe that it was when Jesus was made into human flesh that "God humbled himself". Humility was something Jesus had to learn- it says he "made himself" humble and lowered himself to our level. This was a big part of the reason why Jesus came to earth. I will never forget the time I got a picture in my mind of God himself hanging on the cross for me. That was one of the most humbling pictures I have ever received. HFA
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Post by Brad Lewis on Dec 4, 2006 21:56:34 GMT -5
Either Jesus is God, or he is not good. Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. If he is God, then he is good, and He is a perfect and acceptable sacrifice for our sins. Jesus accepted worship also. Brad Kathy Lewis book is available online now too. www.2x2church.com
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Post by ranman77007 on Aug 20, 2007 11:55:55 GMT -5
You could substiute your mane for Emmanuel and your father's name for God. For example let's say your name is Joe and your father is Jeff. "they shal call his name Joe which being interpreted is Jeff." In other words, the son is a part of the father, not THE Father. No trinitarian believes that the Son is the Father. Also, you mis-paraphrased Matthew 1:23, which says "God with us."i cannot substitute my mane. i don't have a mane.... ;D
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Aug 20, 2007 12:28:29 GMT -5
"The only passage in the entire bible that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity is found in 1 John 5:7-8. However these verses are not authentic. It came from a homily in the 8th century and was added to a Latin text and wasnt even translated into Greek until 1520. However the Council of Constantinople and AD 381 and Chalcedon in AD 451 emerged with explicit statements affirming the Trinity." (this comes from Daniel Wallace who is the worlds leading expert in ancient Greek and director of textual criticism at the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts)
The bible however does contain these four truths:
1. The Father is God 2. Jesus is God 3. The Holy Spirit is God 4. There is only ONE God.
Therefore the 3 must be ONE.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 20, 2007 12:40:22 GMT -5
We're gonna resurrect this topic once again? Yes, we can logically deduce that Jesus is God. We can also logically deduce that he is not.
In many places, the writer speaks of Jesus talking to God (not "the Father"), sitting on the right hand of God (not "the Father"), etc. Such writers do not display any understanding that Jesus actually was God. Or any part of God.
Different N.T. writers had different opinions. Period. Or rather, many seemed to have no opinion at all; the idea of Jesus being God never crossed their mind at all.
The fact that this discussion continues after 2000 years is evidence enough to me that the scriptures are ambiguous and may be interpreted in multiple ways. The most logical reason for this is that different writers displayed different understandings. Is that such a horrible thing to admit, when Jesus himself seemed determined to hide his identity?
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 20, 2007 13:45:41 GMT -5
Hi Diet,
When it comes to basic truth as in Jesus there need not be ANY difference in what people see as important to salvation. Yet there is all the time. Why?
When I hear people disputing the clear and consistently written and distinct words of scripture and twisting them to mean something else- I just have to shake my head.
As far as the subject of the Trinity goes -this discussion will never go away.
One needs to ask why our own viewpoint (Jesus is God) or (Jesus is not God) is so important to us personally.
1. It seems that some people just like to argue and blindly parrot the same basic arguments over and over.
2. Others see one aspect of Jesus nature and over emphasis it to the detriment of the other.
e.g -The RCC belief that Jesus is God has made Mary into the Mother of God and one who can be prayed to.
e.g. Many F&W who do not see Jesus as God only see him as a man who was perfect through extreme prayer, dedication, commitment and effort- and believe that we too can achieve the same if we just try hard enough.
3. Then there are those who see Jesus as The LORD God in the Flesh. One who could have sinned because he was Human but who did not sin because he was God.
They see Christ as The LORD who came forth from God as God's Word, Wisdom, Arm, Light and was the "Face of God" in human form to the world.
As for me it is only when I see Jesus as in #3 above that I can fully reconcile all the scripture about One God saving the World with his own arm, manifesting himself to the world, being flesh in the world or raising himself from the dead.
Peace, HFA
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Post by wonderin on Aug 20, 2007 13:47:44 GMT -5
We're gonna resurrect this topic once again? Yes, we can logically deduce that Jesus is God. We can also logically deduce that he is not. In many places, the writer speaks of Jesus talking to God (not "the Father"), sitting on the right hand of God (not "the Father"), etc. Such writers do not display any understanding that Jesus actually was God. Or any part of God. Different N.T. writers had different opinions. Period. Or rather, many seemed to have no opinion at all; the idea of Jesus being God never crossed their mind at all. The fact that this discussion continues after 2000 years is evidence enough to me that the scriptures are ambiguous and may be interpreted in multiple ways. The most logical reason for this is that different writers displayed different understandings. Is that such a horrible thing to admit, when Jesus himself seemed determined to hide his identity? When was Jesus annointed the 'Christ' ? Who annointed Him as the 'Christ'?
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Post by why is it on Aug 20, 2007 14:06:43 GMT -5
I was reading recently about Jesus.
He is the express image of God.
He is the Word of God, just as God is the divine Letter, that makes up all things [including words, etc]
I will find the article pertaining to 'Image' and post some of the meanings behind this perfectly devine concept.
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Post by diet coke on Aug 20, 2007 14:14:10 GMT -5
HFA, I enjoy your posts!
My observation is that in general a person devises their religion first, and then goes about seeking to validate it. I hope you don't mind me paraphrasing you: Jesus is God because that is what makes sense from what you know of God. I do this too: I have experiences/feelings/guidings that I chalk up to "The Spirit", and go in search in the Bible of verses that show others feeling the same thing. My belief in what the Spirit is, personally, helps me find the verses that validate that belief and discard the verses that do not.
This seems to be fine when the topic is religion. Nothing in this arena is really provable, anyway, and it's not likely to kill us if we guess wrong. A healthy understanding of how little solid foundation really exists underneith my spiritual world-view, however, helps me to be more accepting of other views.
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Post by doe we see on Aug 20, 2007 14:40:25 GMT -5
Seeing God through His Son , Jesus.
The express Image of God.
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Post by noumenal on Aug 20, 2007 15:20:33 GMT -5
The perfect image, would be the exact likeness, and could be seen as the same, but yet, one is the original, and one is the image.
It is confusing concept, and many bright scholars have a difficult time grasping this noumenal .
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Post by hmm mmm on Aug 20, 2007 18:01:09 GMT -5
5015811]You just said "I refuse to disreguard the importance of stating they are equal and therefore EACH can be reguarded seperately and individually." by making Jesus equal to God. To me "God" is NOT just a name- it is also the absolute highest divine nature, essence, power (what ever you want to call it) that is ONLY possessed in it's purest form by The Father, Son and The Holy Spirit. We as humans can possess some of this nature, but ONLY the Father, Son and Holy Spirit possess this in it's pure totallity so that we can worship all three equally and individually- yet as one God (or Godhead if you will). HFA[/quote] I can appreciate what you are saying, but there is a misunderstanding of the context that I stated what I stated, and seeing we are having wknd off, I will save my reply for later. But nonethe less Jesus said,... that He considered it NOT 'robbery' to be equal to God. That is what Jesus said, and we believe Him. Why do we believe Him? Because we have already been made to know that God gave all things to His Son.
How could God give all things to His Son? Because God is infinite, and His riches are infinite {God, as we already have agreed is a seperate being from His Son, right?} Ok, God gave all things to His Son, really is saying that He is giving His Son all He has, yet, God is infinite, and infinite riches are NEVER ending {see: the parable of the barrel of oil, it never ceased supplying ,etc} therfore God still has infinite riches.
God allowed Jesus to take our place on calvary. Now , He is in heaven and God has given Him His throne....they are devoted to each other, and Jesus did not feel it 'robbery' to being equal to God. Since Jesus is able to understand what He meant by that statement, and I do not fully understand it, because I have not seen God, but Jesus has. If we subtract some of what Jesus said, and , saying He was[{notice left out}[not feeling it robbery]equal to God . It may have raised some questions about this not actually being the case, but as Jesus said, He was given permission {He did not 'rob' God} to have all things the Father had, It is plain that ALL things did originally belong to God, and that Jesus at some point in time, received all things from God.
wow I think I may have lost you as this subject is quite a bit over my head, but I was doing my best, MY FRIEND , to explain what it is that I am meditating on, as far as this subject is concerned, It often seems easy to comprehend for me, but when I try to explain it, it gets way to wordy, and is still quite lacking in all it should be, I HOPE you accept my feeble effort and please feel free to share your thots, too.b[/quote] You are over my head.
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 21, 2007 12:36:10 GMT -5
Dear hmm,
Sorry- You combined 3 or 4 quotes from different people into one post so I am not sure what you are saying?
HFA
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Post by Hope For All on Aug 21, 2007 13:05:17 GMT -5
HFA, I enjoy your posts! My observation is that in general a person devises their religion first, and then goes about seeking to validate it. I hope you don't mind me paraphrasing you: Jesus is God because that is what makes sense from what you know of God. I do this too: I have experiences/feelings/guidings that I chalk up to "The Spirit", and go in search in the Bible of verses that show others feeling the same thing. My belief in what the Spirit is, personally, helps me find the verses that validate that belief and discard the verses that do not. This seems to be fine when the topic is religion. Nothing in this arena is really provable, anyway, and it's not likely to kill us if we guess wrong. A healthy understanding of how little solid foundation really exists underneith my spiritual world-view, however, helps me to be more accepting of other views. Dear Diet, Thanks for your words of encouragement- I just try and lay out what I feel God reveals to me-understanding that we all have our own way of relating to who God is. You are right in some cases as far as "fitting our thoughts into scripture". I have done that and usually end up changing my mind more than once before it's all said and done. In other cases I only "adjust" my thinking about something to fit scripture after I have read enough verses about it to have it come clear to me. I can honestly say this was the case with my getting a fuller understanding of the deity of Christ. For many years I saw Jesus as less than God. One who sat somewhere between God and the Angels. One who took a risk by coming to earth and who could have turned completely against what his father wanted and thus caused all mankind to be lost forever. I saw each saved person as being Jesus' equal in a saved eternity in that we are all his younger brothers and sisters and he the elder brother. I saw Jesus as Lord- but Lord in the sense of being like a King here on earth who we would call Lord with equal reverance. I was a died in the wool Anti-Trinitarian in every sense of the word. Summed up with-"How could Jesus be God when he prayed to God??" It was not until I started reading scripture with the honest desire to really know who Jesus was that I slowly started understanding the fullness of his Deity. What amazes me now are verses like those in Heb 1. It was like that chapter was not in my Bible up until about 5 years ago. Isaiah is filled with images and promises of Christ as The LORD that were completely closed to me before. I can read Zechariah and actually love what I am reading- it is no longer "the white edges of my bible". ;D So for me when it comes to the understanding I have of Christ as God, it was not the case of me trying to match my "religious understanding" to fit into scripture- but scripture that forced me to change my thinking. Peace, HFA
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Post by hawk on Aug 21, 2007 13:30:17 GMT -5
The perfect image, would be the exact likeness, and could be seen as the same, but yet, one is the original, and one is the image. It is confusing concept, and many bright scholars have a difficult time grasping this noumenal . 'Likeness' being the operative word. This topic is one reason I have not read my bible in several months. This argument or debate creates friction even among friends and could cause hazy vision. I have my belief for my reasons and am content with that. Some friends have their beliefs for their reasons and are content with that. But I am afraid there will be division among friends - I have seen it in this small community. One church divided to become two over this and similar topics and if you do not believe as the second believes, then you are set aside and possibly ignored. We all have our own beliefs and opinions on various topics and our friends do as well, but when this topic is considered, it seems friends part company. Why is that? We are human beings with opinions. Is my knowledge less than yours? Are you that full of yourself? ('You' is generalized throughout this post.) One thing that really scares me about this and similar topics is the gradual adaptation of Catholic beliefs. 50 some thousand church doctrines in the US and many are 'coming around' to Catholicism. If Catholicism is right, then become a Catholic; why waste your efforts to resist if you believe the same? You don't believe entirely the same? You will . . . give it time. Is it so terrible to be Catholic? Do you consider where you are today, what it took you to be who you are today, and consider the same for those around you? Do you have some kind of special lease on life because of your belief? Is it worth destroying others' beliefs? If you destroy one small portion of a person's belief, if just might be the foundation you are destroying. If you destroy the foundation, well, you know what happens. I have close friends of almost every denomination (I clump some, like Mennonite and Mormon; Methodist, Baptist, and Catholic; Pentecostal and JW; Atheist, Lacadaisical) and we can talk about these topics and let opinions be. We don't try to convince the other party that we are right but rather try to understand why they believe what they do. Most of my friends are okay with any topic knowing that we all have opinions and we are human. I just don't understand how people sever relations because of difference in doctrine or any such item. As Christians, aren't we all brothers and sisters? This reminds me of my short time spent in the Council Bluffs area and the day we were driving down the road to see some people. I asked my companion why we hadn't been to see Mr. and Mrs. so and so and their kids. "They haven't been to mtg for several months and show no interest," he said. Well, excuse the poop out of me, but isn't that a primary job? Aren't we supposed to seek the 'lost'? "Feed my lambs and feed my sheep." Seems to me that verse is in the Bible. I realize the purpose of a message board is to share posts but is the purpose of a Christian to stone those who do not share the same opinions? Didn't Jesus go out of His way to help others? Didn't He miss appointments because He stopped along the way to assist? I don't recall Him killing anyone or stomping on feet. Maybe He did in a bible I have not read. Maybe he snubbed people who did not show interest or share his opinion. Maybe he walked away from the needy. Maybe he knew judo and kicked the feet out from underneath people. Maybe he destroyed foundations everywhere he went. That 'he' is not the He I know. The guy I know is the one who takes anyone and everyone under His wing. He intercedes for me because He knows where I am and what I am going through. He loves and cares for me like no one ever could. He wants me to be with Him and His dad forever. He walked on water. He performed miracles. He denied Satan. He is divine by God's will through a human female. He is a brother I would never have had if I had not accepted Him. He is a brother who does not judge me for my opinions. He listens. He is a brother like no other. He is God's Son and I am God's son. I am thankful for Jesus because without Him I would most likely not make it to heaven. I don't take salvation for granted. Hawk
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Post by hawk on Aug 21, 2007 13:34:38 GMT -5
Good post, HFA, re: reply #77.
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Post by Zorro on Aug 21, 2007 14:22:38 GMT -5
This topic is one reason I have not read my bible in several months. This argument or debate creates friction even among friends and could cause hazy vision. I have my belief for my reasons and am content with that. Some friends have their beliefs for their reasons and are content with that.If you're content with your position, don't let this keep you from allowing God's Word to feed you. And as you read, if something causes you to challenge yourself, just go with it. We all have our own beliefs and opinions on various topics and our friends do as well, but when this topic is considered, it seems friends part company. Why is that?I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't consider this topic to be essential for salvation and I certainly don't feel agreement on it is essential for fellowship with other Christians. That doesn't mean I don't get a bit passionate about it, because I obviously do....but don't misunderstand my motive. Basically, the reason I vigorously defend the doctrine is because it completely opens up the Bible. When I read these verses I can just take them at face value: John 1:18 (New International Version) No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.Romans 9:5 (New International Version) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.Another thing that nags me is that I'm convinced the reason this is such a huge issue in the fellowship and on this forum is because of decades of poor teaching by the workers. You won't find this kind of discord on the topic on bible.org's forums. You can ask a Baptist teenager if Jesus is God and they'll say yes without hesitation. Bottom line is that I lay the general state of doctrinal confusion regarding this subject, and many others, at the feet of the workers....and I'd never let it be the cause of a severed friendship
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Post by Y wood u on Aug 21, 2007 14:42:39 GMT -5
I have never shot anyone that didn't believe what I believed, else this would be a poor example to be. Yet, In my experience those that believe the trinitarian view, are more set on warfare of this kind, believing that is is futile to live up to the standard that Jesus left us to follow. I feel sorry for them, as it is not really their fault, as they get indoctrinated at a very early age through their system of cathecism, etc. There are a few that are open minded to reasoning with Truth, but for those that are not, they are haplessly missing the point of Christ coming to this earth. Bless them
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Post by Zorro on Aug 21, 2007 14:51:53 GMT -5
Yet, In my experience those that believe the trinitarian view, are more set on warfare of this kind, believing that is is futile to live up to the standard that Jesus left us to follow.Which leads directly to the workers inability to correctly teach about grace
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Post by not So on Aug 21, 2007 14:57:17 GMT -5
Yet, In my experience those that believe the trinitarian view, are more set on warfare of this kind, believing that is is futile to live up to the standard that Jesus left us to follow.Which leads directly to the workers inability to correctly teach about grace For me, at least. .. They even teach to turn the other cheek to people like uoY.
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