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Post by jphillips on Dec 6, 2008 21:28:08 GMT -5
I guess what befuddles me is that there's absolutely 'ZERO' attempts to recapture those that might have lost out.
Their willingness to let others, that at one point in time were cherished within the fold, die away, with the ease and unconcernedness like a drop of sweat falling from their noses.
And yet they are supposed to be those compassionate Shepherds.
Their dispositions seems to be "Oh, TOUGH LUCK."
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Post by heal on Dec 6, 2008 21:29:20 GMT -5
The workers need to hand out secret sect books at convention this is the best way...to try and get around the ex2x2 would end in disaster...come out clean.. allow the Internet..because it ain't going away & they'll use it anyway are are presently doing so anyhow
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Post by jphillips on Dec 6, 2008 21:43:03 GMT -5
The workers need to hand out secret sect books at convention this is the best way...to try and get around the ex2x2 would end in disaster...come out clean.. allow the Internet..because it ain't going away & they'll use it anyway are are presently doing so anyhow The book is hard to come by, they'll need another publishing. Websites likes HALF, Amazon, .. has copies for $40-$75. I happened to pick up a copy from HALF for $20, which is an abnormality, a month ago after 8 months of waiting.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 6, 2008 22:27:03 GMT -5
I guess what befuddles me is that there's absolutely 'ZERO' attempts to recapture those that might have lost out. Their willingness to let others, that at one point in time were cherished within the fold, die away, with the ease and unconcernedness like a drop of sweat falling from their noses. And yet they are supposed to be those compassionate Shepherds. Their dispositions seems to be "Oh, TOUGH LUCK." That's because the workers are not shepherds. They get into their little power trips and don't get out.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 7, 2008 8:58:00 GMT -5
The workers need to hand out secret sect books at convention this is the best way...to try and get around the ex2x2 would end in disaster...come out clean.. allow the Internet..because it ain't going away & they'll use it anyway are are presently doing so anyhow The book is hard to come by, they'll need another publishing. Websites likes HALF, Amazon, .. has copies for $40-$75. I happened to pick up a copy from HALF for $20, which is an abnormality, a month ago after 8 months of waiting. The book is distributed by RIS in America- go to TTT home page - select LINKS on the left sidebar and close to the top of the list is RIS with ORDER BOOKS HERE written beside it. There is a new printing in the works.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2008 10:20:29 GMT -5
I guess what befuddles me is that there's absolutely 'ZERO' attempts to recapture those that might have lost out. Their willingness to let others, that at one point in time were cherished within the fold, die away, with the ease and unconcernedness like a drop of sweat falling from their noses. And yet they are supposed to be those compassionate Shepherds. Their dispositions seems to be "Oh, TOUGH LUCK." I'll try to unbefuddle you. The most common stance toward those who quit the church is this : "they know where to come" so they are left to come back on their own if they want to......and a few do. I don't believe that it necessarily indicates a lack of compassion although that would be a component in some cases. It's more a lack of recognition that the church may have been part or all of the cause of leaving to begin with. We simply cannot come to terms with the possibility that we may be at fault for someone leaving the meetings. There is nothing to resolve or straighten out, nothing for us to apologize for or make right. So, the idea of "they know where to come" is really quite logical under the circumstances. Put yourself in the shoes of people still in the meetings and here's the logic: 1.Our church is the only right church and there is almost nothing wrong with it. It is the perfect way even though the people aren't perfect. 2.Those who leave the church already know that ours is the only right church so there is nothing new for us to approach them with. 3.Since the exes know it's the right way and they know how to find the meetings again, we don't need to chase after them. They will come back if they see the light again or feel their need.
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Post by toffeecrumble on Dec 7, 2008 10:20:42 GMT -5
Excellent question! Here's a list I put together. Things the workers could do to set the record straight: 1. Hold a workers meeting and ensure that all workers are on the same page when it comes to the origins of the faith. * 2. Then over the course of the next year, have the workers visit all of the meetings in their flock and discuss the origins after the meeting.* 3. Instruct all elders to correct anyone who claims a different origin during their testimony (after the meeting so as not to embarrass anyone) 4. Have a topical bible study about the saving Grace of God. (This should clear up any belief that the “Truth” is the only way. 5. At each convention, ensure that at least one worker speaks on the topic of the origins for at least the next couple of years.* Things the workers should do going forward to ensure this never becomes a problem again: 1. Ensure each new worker is aware of the origins before they become a worker.* 2. Write up a pamphlet or letter that contains the facts behind the origins so that people can refer to it should there be a question. 3. Be open about the origins to any new members who ask about them.* 4. Talk about the history of the church from time to time at conventions and special meetings.* *Can also include their opinion of why it doesn’t matter. Oh, yes, some of these are sound ideas, but, how do you expect the average friend to react?
"Oh Yeah, OK then, right, we will all suddenly forget what we were told before and switch to believe this new stuff."
I doubt it!!!!
How do you expect them to just swallow the past untruths and accept that what they are now being told is the truth??
There's a lot at stake here. There has been a great deal of trust invested, in the way, in the workers, the workers' word. It will not be easy to rectify and reasons will be required. Like WHY had all this not been known and revealed before? Families have been broken up in favour of going along with what workers taught. The bottom will fall out of friends'lives if they are to be disillusioned of the former facts as they have come to know them.
Members in the past have been excluded from fellowship for questioning the workers. Now, you think they can tell the remaining friends that the questions were valid and sweep it all under the carpet again to continue with a different story??If the people were naive and trusting the first time, they will not be the second time. They will be outraged. Except for the ones who have known all along and sneakily kept it to themselves.
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Post by glory2god on Dec 7, 2008 11:02:11 GMT -5
Sharon wrote:I think what bothers me the most about this exiting the faith as well as the prominency of excommunications...is the workers generally don't appear to be disturbed by it! Do they not care what happens to folks? Have they become complacent because of all the trust funds laying about, they don't have to worry about ready cash flow from ever increasing numbers of members? Something is not right with this attitude amongst some of the workers in regards to the ease with which they accept or push the exiting of members! I thought that was what workers were supposed to do was give their lives for the sheep and now they sheep are scattering and some don't seem to give a care! I just don't get it!
I can see this attitude among the workers also. the last few years I professed, I noticed this change. I remember growing up in the 2x2 way that everytime someone would drop out, the workers had many visits with them to try and convince them otherwise, then I saw where the workers didn't do the ambulance chasing anymore, but would rather discredit them in the meetings about how they let down their guard or lost their faith and no longer walk among the chosen. When I quit going almots 2 years ago, I never had ONE worker call, write or visit to see what the matter was. My wife quit going about a year later, as it was so bogus, this "front" they put up to make themselves so superior that they do not feel they have stoop to the level of those that they considered have failed.
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Post by JO on Dec 7, 2008 13:23:00 GMT -5
If the people were naive and trusting the first time, they will not be the second time. They will be outraged. Except for the ones who have known all along and sneakily kept it to themselves. "Sneakily kept it to themselves" is a bit harsh. We've discussed what senior workers could do, and what parents could do. What could junior workers and elders do to avoid being accused of "sneakily keeping it to themselves"?
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Post by september on Dec 7, 2008 13:29:45 GMT -5
As long as the Workers practice the erroneous beliefs of William Irvine and his peers and are influenced by his beliefs and teachings, they should take full responsibility and accountability for their movement. They should recognise Irvine's historical and spiritual role and be honest about it. Irvine has influenced every person who has ever been a member of the 2x2 sect, irrespective of whether or not they have ever heard of him. His ideas dominate the sect today many of which are not of Christ or proper Biblical interpretation. Therefore you may not know anything about Irvine, but by following this way you are at least in part an Irvinist. I don't think a lot of the ideas of doctrine can really be all attributed to WI...there's too many similarities to the Faith Mission as far as dress and appearance and behavior codes are! It is eery when you find this out just by accidentally running into those of the AC denomination...yes, they've modernized perhaps more in the past 100 yrs. then the truths' fellowship...but it just seems that the kindredship is there! There are significant differences in FM doctrine and that of the fellowship. FM believes OSAS, the fellowship doesn't. They believe in the finished work of Jesus, the fellowship doesn't. The FM is not a church per se, (unlike the exclusive position taken by the fellowship) they minister to all Christians regardless of denomination and encourage them to take a more active interest in their own church. The only similarity is the format of the meetings as I outlined somewhere else on these boards.
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Post by chester on Dec 22, 2008 0:27:15 GMT -5
The trouble with this suggestion is that there are workers lying from the platform. Some parents may be telling it—but how do we get the workers to tell the truth?
In your suggestion, parents were following a God given instruction that came from Moses and Aaron. And the parents were telling the same stories to their children that Moses and Aaron were telling--which was all the truth.
The challenge that your suggestion does not address is that even if parents are telling their children the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God--the workers are not. So then these informed children who know the historical truth go to meetings and/or have contact with the workers, and get a different story from the workers who are the authority figures.
How does that work, and why is this so? And if there are friends today who are actually doing what you suggested, then what do they tell their children when their children come up against contradictory information (the workers version of truth) from what their parents told them?
Hmmmm.... Bottom line here is the workers and the friends/parents would not all be on the same page concerning telling the truth--how can this be right?
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Post by todd on Dec 22, 2008 2:54:08 GMT -5
I guess what befuddles me is that there's absolutely 'ZERO' attempts to recapture those that might have lost out. Their willingness to let others, that at one point in time were cherished within the fold, die away, with the ease and unconcernedness like a drop of sweat falling from their noses. And yet they are supposed to be those compassionate Shepherds. Their dispositions seems to be "Oh, TOUGH LUCK." I'm not sure if this one features on Bert's contradiction list, but it should. I have heard people complain that they make it clear that they aren't interested, yet the workers still visited them. You can't please everyone I guess. I hope nobody minds me quoting these verses again... 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. 34The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! and... For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2008 6:44:28 GMT -5
Todd. Your posts interest me. I have saved many of them for future reading It was by accident I encountered your remark here. I don't read all the threads, or all the posts in a given thread. So if you have something for me to read, could you Private Message me? Thanks. Your verses, "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!"and... "For many bare false witness against him, but their witness agreed not together."remind me of how much I have learned from this board. I say ALL the fellowship should come and read this stuff.
Yes, I have encountered this argument before about workers visiting the apostates, and not visiting the apostates. I will add it to my list. ;D I have nearly 800 quotes. I suspect that EVERY quote has at least one ANTI-QUOTE.I have a science background. We have a saying that if there are many answers to a question, then there are no answers to that question.
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Post by lin on Dec 22, 2008 7:03:57 GMT -5
Chester: You are again forgetting where workers come from. They are our own children. If they know truth they are going to preach truth.I have already heard some things said at convention that were just the idea or opinion of the speaker. Between the meetings I have heard discussion about the opinion whether it's right or not. It's a wrong opinion for people to believe that the workers tell us what to believe. We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
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Post by todd on Dec 22, 2008 8:19:47 GMT -5
It was by accident I encountered your remark here. I don't read all the threads, or all the posts in a given thread. So if you have something for me to read, could you Private Message me? Thanks. Bert, I didn't really mention your quotes specifically for your purpose, but just that we were seeing another one typical of them. Thanks for posting them by the way. Quite funny, even though it is a bit sad that people just want to be the false witness even though it means contradicting themselves. It's reasurring to know that we are facing what Jesus faced. If you want to follow Jesus, you are going come up against the exact same people. Anyway, having said that, if I come across any good/bad comments for you I'll let you know. I suspect that I read less posts than you do though. Hmm... I haven't heard that one before. There sure are a lot of different answers here. Todd
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 22, 2008 8:36:00 GMT -5
Lin:
Lin:
Lin - Those that become workers would already know. This is absolutely NOT true. Do you want everyone of the exes to come on here and tell you about when and how they learned this? We can do it! Then VOT could make up a nice collection of their statements and post it on their website. You well know that many workers dont know before they go in the work and many friends/parents do not know now--so how could they pass on the info to their children??
Who told you about the 2x2 history and Wm Irvine, Lin, and how old were you? How old was your son when you told him? Did he ask, or did you volunteer the info? What exactly did you tell him??
As you know, I grew up on the Jackson Mississippi convention grounds. Before we moved to MS in 1958, there wasn't a conv. in that state. So my family was there from its inception. My mother was B&R in Mississippi. My father was B&R in Texas. Through the 30+ years my parents lived on the conv., grounds, probably 100's of workers came there and visited with my parents--including the Overseer of the Eastern USA: GEORGE WALKER. In all those years, there was NOT ONE who ever mentioned the history or Wm Irvine. My parents learned of it after I discovered it in 1989.
My Grandparents were were not told about the history or Wm Irvine so they could not tell my parents; and so our parents could not tell my brother or me what they did not know. And so, my parents faithfully taught my brother and I what they had been taught...the lie--that the church physically started when Jesus sending out the disciples 2x2.
My brother gave up all his possessions, became penniless and went in the work not knowing any different--in his first 2 weeks at preps another very young brother worker took it upon himself to enlightened him. The older workers didnt bother. I know other workers who did not learn about the church's short history until after they were in the work...AFTER they had given up ALL their possessions. What a con job! If this happened in the business world, the workers would be sued for fraud in a New York minute.
So Lin, some families had the knowledge--others did not--even when there were numerous opportunities when they could have been told. How are those parents going to tell their children what they do not know?
We weren't all as lucky as "September" and her parents, whose parents told them precisely how/when it started when she/they asked. But then, her Grandmother was THERE in the beginning and knew firsthand. She didn't have to be told.
So, Like the CSA letters sent out to inform the entire state---this matter needs to be told to EVERYONE who has a right to know--EVERYONE. Then parents would be able to pass it down accurately. And the same story would be told and not 25 different vague stories that nobody is sure about. Workers could speak of it freely. It could become common knowledge. Everyone could get on the same page...unity! Wouldnt that be wonderful!
These verses that the F&W love to use, show the principal that somebody has to know something--in order for it to get passed on.
Romans 10:14: "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
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Post by lin on Dec 22, 2008 9:06:14 GMT -5
Cherie: You are the crusader,why don't you write all of the workers a letter demanding this be made known,instead of bickering and barking from the sidelines.Maybe coming from you with your background it would be the magic wand.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 22, 2008 9:35:35 GMT -5
Cherie: You are the crusader,why don't you write all of the workers a letter demanding this be made known,instead of bickering and barking from the sidelines.Maybe coming from you with your background it would be the magic wand. Because she refuted your comment, that means she's bickering and barking? Hmmm.... maybe this is your way of admitting that she's right and you're too proud to bring yourself up to the level of a man and actually saying it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 22, 2008 9:36:57 GMT -5
Cherie: You are the crusader,why don't you write all of the workers a letter demanding this be made known,instead of bickering and barking from the sidelines.Maybe coming from you with your background it would be the magic wand. Why dont you check with your buddie, Barry Barkley, and see how he would react if I did that. What would be my chances of success?
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Post by lin on Dec 22, 2008 9:37:09 GMT -5
What if I'm a woman?
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Post by jh62 on Dec 22, 2008 15:28:15 GMT -5
If you're a woman, you've listed the wrong gender in your profile. (It shows up under your name as: "male".)
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Post by jh62 on Dec 22, 2008 15:33:08 GMT -5
todd said: "It's reasurring to know that we are facing what Jesus faced."
My goodness! You should have mentioned this earlier! None of us had a clue that you're facing a long painful execution on a cross!! I don't think any of us had a clue that you are a martyr. If we would have known this, I'm sure everyone would have shown a lot more compassion. When did you find out there is an execution planned for you? How can you possibly deal with this? How is your family handling this news?
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Post by lin on Dec 22, 2008 15:33:16 GMT -5
I lie remember?
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Post by jh62 on Dec 22, 2008 15:34:42 GMT -5
Handy piece of information there!
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Post by lin on Dec 22, 2008 15:41:10 GMT -5
Just kidding I'm male
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Post by jh62 on Dec 22, 2008 15:52:02 GMT -5
Nathan, you should tell of some specific cases of this. It would be inspiring to know of the f&w's who have been suffering for the gospel in this manner.
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Post by jh62 on Dec 22, 2008 16:02:28 GMT -5
Just to be clear, Nathan, I didn't really believe Todd was facing execution. I just wanted to point out the innaccuracy of him saying he was facing what Jesus faced in His day. Most of us, (I would say greater than 99% of us) will never in our lifetime face what Jesus did. Most of us will never see the beatings and torture that he did. Most of us will never die because of our beliefs, and our love for others. We should not put ourselves on the same level with Jesus.
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White Knight
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THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
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Post by White Knight on Dec 22, 2008 16:15:43 GMT -5
Just to be clear, Nathan, I didn't really believe Todd was facing execution. I just wanted to point out the innaccuracy of him saying he was facing what Jesus faced in His day. Most of us, (I would say greater than 99% of us) will never in our lifetime face what Jesus did. Most of us will never see the beatings and torture that he did. Most of us will never die because of our beliefs, and our love for others. We should not put ourselves on the same level with Jesus. Pending if one is sincere or not, but knowing of a truth there’d be few and far between. "Most of us will never see the beatings and torture that he did." I think you meant (that he went through.)
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