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Post by rjs on Dec 5, 2008 9:37:40 GMT -5
Any ideas? How should the head workers in the Kingdom deal with the fact that Irish workers STARTED the Truth fellowship in the late 1890s? Deny it and stick their heads in the sand. Admit it when quetioned about it. Act like it isn't important? Question people's salvation who question the Irish background of the Truth?
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Post by Child of God on Dec 5, 2008 10:13:19 GMT -5
I know this doesn't satisfy you and many others here on this board... but it has been said before and I feel it needs to be said again because you continue to frame this issue as an issue instead of just a fact that is well known.
Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. My faith is in him, my faith is in God. What any of those few men did back there in the late 1800's and early 1900's means nothing as far as my faith is concerned. I do feel thankful they were moved to do what they did, and love how it has continued to grow even unto this day.
I am very sorry that you have been hurt by someone and your reaction to that pain is such as it is. I read your post about forgiveness and understand where you are coming from. I want you to know my prayers will include you and your family.
I have found in the past that resistance creates pain... acceptance and forgiveness release that pain and allow you to move on in life. Think of those martial arts guys that teach how to roll with the punch to absorb the punch and use the energy to come back to the assailant with ever increasing force. This is all part of the dynamics of God's wonderful law of the universe. It has helped me to understand how to live in a world filled with others going in opposite directions to what I want to go, yet work and live amongst them without hindering God's work or others fragile natures.
Peace and good will to all!
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Dec 5, 2008 10:40:46 GMT -5
rjs, the best way to bring it into the open (and I admit, even though everybody knows the deep dark secret, it's not in the open) is to speak respectfully. As "Child of God" says, there is no reason to ridicule or be antagonistic; Irvine is no longer important to the faith, regardless of what people here say of his influence.
The last two workers I spoke to about the divinity of Jesus replied frankly that yes, the Bible hints that Jesus is God, and we have to accept that it is so, even if we don't really understand how it can be. That's just an example; grass-roots changes that result from honest conversation slowly bringing things into the light.
So it will be with Irvine, given time.
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H.A.S.
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Post by H.A.S. on Dec 5, 2008 11:45:39 GMT -5
Excellent question! Here's a list I put together. Things the workers could do to set the record straight: 1. Hold a workers meeting and ensure that all workers are on the same page when it comes to the origins of the faith. * 2. Then over the course of the next year, have the workers visit all of the meetings in their flock and discuss the origins after the meeting.* 3. Instruct all elders to correct anyone who claims a different origin during their testimony (after the meeting so as not to embarrass anyone) 4. Have a topical bible study about the saving Grace of God. (This should clear up any belief that the “Truth” is the only way. 5. At each convention, ensure that at least one worker speaks on the topic of the origins for at least the next couple of years.*
Things the workers should do going forward to ensure this never becomes a problem again: 1. Ensure each new worker is aware of the origins before they become a worker.* 2. Write up a pamphlet or letter that contains the facts behind the origins so that people can refer to it should there be a question. 3. Be open about the origins to any new members who ask about them.* 4. Talk about the history of the church from time to time at conventions and special meetings.*
*Can also include their opinion of why it doesn’t matter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2008 11:57:33 GMT -5
The workers should at last be honest, open and public about the origins to get the monkey off their back, once and for all.
However, they won't do the right thing because the founder question does not matter to them. The reason for this is twofold. 1) Many have (mostly unwittingly) promoted the belief in one form or another that this way goes all the way back to the shores of Gallilee, along with the accompanying bogey of only wayism, 2) It matters to many in the fellowship.
The potential for egg on the face and losing grip on an enlightened fellowship are big enough fear factors to confine an honest approach to the question to the "deserted simpliciter" basket !
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H.A.S.
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Post by H.A.S. on Dec 5, 2008 12:11:16 GMT -5
I know this doesn't satisfy you and many others here on this board... but it has been said before and I feel it needs to be said again because you continue to frame this issue as an issue instead of just a fact that is well known. You assume this is a well known fact. I can assure you that this is not a well known fact in the Midwest. I believe this is why the topic of W.I. continues to be an issue in some parts of the world. Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. My faith is in him, my faith is in God. What any of those few men did back there in the late 1800's and early 1900's means nothing as far as my faith is concerned. I do feel thankful they were moved to do what they did, and love how it has continued to grow even unto this day. This is your opinion. While I respect your opinion, you can't assume that we all share your opinion. Would you deny someone the facts simply because you decided the facts were not important? I for one think the facts are very important, as I believe what those few men did back in the late 1800's shaped many of the customs that are continued to this day. That's why I continue to believe this is an issue. I believe the facts should be made available to anyone who asks for them. That way each person can make up their own mind if they are important or not.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 5, 2008 12:19:37 GMT -5
Seems CoG has some points to consider...since there are many within the truth's fellowship that "follow Jesus" and not any mankind, such historical facts are irrelevant to them. However there are those who stumble along within the truth's fellowship doing what many people do in the other churches..."profess to be in the church" because they sure don't want to go to a lost eternity and the truth's fellowship "feels" right to them for whatever reason and are easily influenced by the powers that be! I think CoG's point of being thankful that some man or men were inspired by some sort of revelation to bring the truth's fellowship into being would be a way for any worker or friend to approach the "history" of the fellowship's beginning. Then they are free to move on to speaking about even the most dedicated saint can fall from grace when their heads get too big for them and that's what seems to have happened to one of the initial founders of the truth's fellowship! There's no need for a blatant approach to the historical fact, IMOP, but simply a referral to the facts in such an above manner not only gets the facts out, but also leaves the door open to the fact that there was sincerity in the beginning also! It wasn't contrived to be a manmade church, but a Spirit-led one! And the reiteration of the fact anyone can make mistakes, but that with humble repentance, all can return to the grace of our Lord and Savior! Just a bird's eye view is all! A soft approach without embellishing the negative parts, but of course if the workers are then approached with questions...answer them truthfully and then encourage the questioner to appeal to God for leading and guiding, not mankind!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2008 12:24:20 GMT -5
Here's another idea:
Overseers should seek volunteers amongst the friends to put together a history site. Just the facts. That group could seek Cherie's cooperation (if she was interested) as she has already done most of the work on it and it is already on the TTT.
Then, when the history question comes up, the workers or friends could simply refer people to the site.
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Post by JO on Dec 5, 2008 14:37:47 GMT -5
Some suggestions for overseers concerning the history of the work and fellowship:
1. Recognize that questions about the church's history are legitimate and in no way reflect negatively on the questioner's integrity. All too often a worker will turn the answer around to accuse the questioner of impropriety simply because they asked. Please, answer questions honestly.
2. Ensure that all workers on the staff know the truth about the history. Some senior workers have been doing this. We can hardly take a worker seriously who is ignorant concerning something that is of great concern to a significant number of friends and young folks.
3. Encourage workers on the staff to honestly answer all questions about the beginnings. Lots of "notes" get passed around amongst the friends, so why not pass around some of the accounts of the early days? Goodhand Pattison's account would be a good one IMO.
4. Encourage workers on the staff to preach Jesus only. The gospel is about Jesus and the individual believer's relationship with him. That is the horse. The ministry and church is the cart.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 5, 2008 15:23:18 GMT -5
Here's another idea: Overseers should seek volunteers amongst the friends to put together a history site. Just the facts. That group could seek Cherie's cooperation (if she was interested) as she has already done most of the work on it and it is already on the TTT. Then, when the history question comes up, the workers or friends could simply refer people to the site. I might be willing to help as a consultant. My goal is that the 2x2 history become common knowledge, and that fits with my over all goal. However your own church has an avid worldwide historical group with tons of 2x2 historical data about the church. Looks like they would be the logical ones to put together something neutral about the church history. Coming from a source like them, it would more likely be endorsed by the workers...if that is your goal. (I'm not sure they could be neutral tho...) I feel pretty sure that nothing written by an ex about the history or any other 2x2 subject will ever be endorsed by the workers. So I dont think I would be much help beyond being a consultant and giving direction to information, sources, etc.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 5, 2008 20:24:02 GMT -5
Some suggestions for overseers concerning the history of the work and fellowship: 1. Recognize that questions about the church's history are legitimate and in no way reflect negatively on the questioner's integrity. All too often a worker will turn the answer around to accuse the questioner of impropriety simply because they asked. Please, answer questions honestly. 2. Ensure that all workers on the staff know the truth about the history. Some senior workers have been doing this. We can hardly take a worker seriously who is ignorant concerning something that is of great concern to a significant number of friends and young folks. 3. Encourage workers on the staff to honestly answer all questions about the beginnings. Lots of "notes" get passed around amongst the friends, so why not pass around some of the accounts of the early days? Goodhand Pattison's account would be a good one IMO. 4. Encourage workers on the staff to preach Jesus only. The gospel is about Jesus and the individual believer's relationship with him. That is the horse. The ministry and church is the cart. I think this is a sensible approach...I also think that it's time for some realtime workers convs. where all the workers are united as a group and are told the facts, are told to how to handle legal and criminal things within the fellowship, are told what things the truth's fellowship are going to hold forth as requirements for its' members to dress, behave,etc. About marriage and divorce and remarriage and how to approach each case individually yet have some common guidelines to follow(yes, we know a standard has to be set and tried to be kept). Also should instruct the workers that they are NOT educated NOR experienced to know how to deal effectively with problems within the friends' lives and they should just tell the friends who come to them with every little problem "Hey, I'm not equipped either by education nor experience to help you with that. I can only counsel and advise any one person to pray to God for their personal affairs and seek legal and other counsels as needed." I think to put the workers in that limelight as being the source one goes to with some of our routine life problems is one thing that's enlarged their heads! Given them power and control that they don't know how to handle. I also think that this workers' conv. should address CSA and how to deal with it or the alleged cases, not to become involved personally but to turn it over to the proper authorities immediately. Also discuss the ramifications of being caught up in the web of false accusations of any kind against others. I think sex practices also should be discussed...I think if the workers are going to come down hard on premarital sex where one ends up pregnant and then has to not be a part of mtg. or such, they should address sex completely to all the workers, consensual, rape, homosexual and give them an understanding that workers are not exempt from the same sentence that the workers hand out to the friends. I think to push the idea what's good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak! I think what I read about some of the olden centuried folks who were also trying to have a life and ministry as Jesus set forth...they eventually did form an educational system for the new ministerial candidates, a seminarial pursuit, if you will! I'm not sure that that wouldn't be a very good idea for the younger workers...so that there is consistency in the rules and regs within the fellowship....I think one thing that has slain the hope and promise of so many of the friends is to find that there's a whole lot of different levels of rules and regs. over various things such as D&R, Dating outsiders, marrying outsiders.....that seems like to me that when one dates or marries outsiders to open the doors as wide as possible would be more enticing for the outsiders, wouldn't it and seems like it would open the arms of everyone with love for others, period! I'm seeing a whole lot of loss of love within what should be one of the richest things with love in it! I'm not understanding that at all!
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Post by lin on Dec 5, 2008 21:06:55 GMT -5
Why do the workers have to handle the history issue? Why can't we tell our children? It's our responsibility to tell our children why things are as they are. When the children of Israel crossed Jordan they were to take stones out of the bottom of the river,and make a monument. Then when their children asked about the stones they were to tell them the history of those stones. I have told our son the history as it's called. It's no surprise to him when others bring it up, and does not disturb his faith.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 5, 2008 21:15:25 GMT -5
Why do the workers have to handle the history issue? Why can't we tell our children? It's our responsibility to tell our children why things are as they are. When the children of Israel crossed Jordan they were to take stones out of the bottom of the river,and make a monument. Then when their children asked about the stones they were to tell them the history of those stones. I have told our son the history as it's called. It's no surprise to him when others bring it up, and does not disturb his faith. This is helpful, lin! But all the workers need to be brought up to speed as well, so that W&F's all know the same thing as history puts it then when unsuspecting children bring it up before workers they are not met with evasion, ridicule or oppression. Yes, it's a good thing for parents to clue their children in on what matters, but if the ministry is going to keep their heads in the sand then pain and hurt can be a problem anyway! JMOP
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Post by lin on Dec 5, 2008 21:19:33 GMT -5
The workers would be brought up to speed,because where do workers come from. They come from the people. Those that become workers would already know.
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Post by Brick on Dec 5, 2008 21:58:10 GMT -5
I think a group of workers and 2x2 history buffs should get together and write a book that gives an account of the life and times of WI. Then another book about the early days of the fellowship's ministry. Then a third book that brings things into the current era. Instead of calling the work a trilogy, they could call it the holy trinity! ;D
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Post by kiwi on Dec 6, 2008 0:34:45 GMT -5
Any ideas? How should the head workers in the Kingdom deal with the fact that Irish workers STARTED the Truth fellowship in the late 1890s? Deny it and stick their heads in the sand. Admit it when quetioned about it. Act like it isn't important? Question people's salvation who question the Irish background of the Truth? What on earth for? our salvation has noting to do with W.I. We don't want to stick him on a pederstool, we don't worship him. Jesus is the only one who should have that sort of mention of us. To me it is one of the most stupid of ideas, and again Jesus should be the only one named among us. Besides we don't want to be like other churches do we
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Post by JO on Dec 6, 2008 5:11:53 GMT -5
Any ideas? How should the head workers in the Kingdom deal with the fact that Irish workers STARTED the Truth fellowship in the late 1890s? Deny it and stick their heads in the sand. Admit it when quetioned about it. Act like it isn't important? Question people's salvation who question the Irish background of the Truth? What on earth for? our salvation has noting to do with W.I. We don't want to stick him on a pederstool, we don't worship him. Jesus is the only one who should have that sort of mention of us. To me it is one of the most stupid of ideas, and again Jesus should be the only one named among us. Besides we don't want to be like other churches do we If workers preached Jesus only then it wouldn't matter about the history. However the reality is that they are teaching a salvation that is dependant on membership of the 2x2 church. They can't have it both ways. If membership of the church organization is essential, then so is the history of that organization.
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Post by learnedaboutgrace on Dec 6, 2008 5:21:41 GMT -5
Exactly! Good point. If the workers preached Jesus shed blood and what it has done for us, it wouldn't matter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2008 5:48:29 GMT -5
As long as the Workers practice the erroneous beliefs of William Irvine and his peers and are influenced by his beliefs and teachings, they should take full responsibility and accountability for their movement. They should recognise Irvine's historical and spiritual role and be honest about it. Irvine has influenced every person who has ever been a member of the 2x2 sect, irrespective of whether or not they have ever heard of him. His ideas dominate the sect today many of which are not of Christ or proper Biblical interpretation. Therefore you may not know anything about Irvine, but by following this way you are at least in part an Irvinist.
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Post by ilylo on Dec 6, 2008 10:56:40 GMT -5
our salvation has noting to do with W.I. Who said it did? We don't want to stick him on a pederstool, we don't worship him. Right. That would diminish the role played by the current worker cadre. Jesus is the only one who should have that sort of mention of us. You would think. To me it is one of the most stupid of ideas, and again Jesus should be the only one named among us. You would think. Besides we don't want to be like other churches do we Right. Other churches don't lie about their origin. You certainly wouldn't want to be honest like them.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 6, 2008 12:57:16 GMT -5
The workers would be brought up to speed,because where do workers come from. They come from the people. Those that become workers would already know. lin, what you say is true for "future" workers, but the workers that are now need to be brought up to speed and willing to face it because if they don't the "future" workers will know nothing but oppression and suppression from the older workers. That isn't kosher in my books, but then that's JMOP
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Post by Sharon on Dec 6, 2008 13:02:03 GMT -5
As long as the Workers practice the erroneous beliefs of William Irvine and his peers and are influenced by his beliefs and teachings, they should take full responsibility and accountability for their movement. They should recognise Irvine's historical and spiritual role and be honest about it. Irvine has influenced every person who has ever been a member of the 2x2 sect, irrespective of whether or not they have ever heard of him. His ideas dominate the sect today many of which are not of Christ or proper Biblical interpretation. Therefore you may not know anything about Irvine, but by following this way you are at least in part an Irvinist. I don't think a lot of the ideas of doctrine can really be all attributed to WI...there's too many similarities to the Faith Mission as far as dress and appearance and behavior codes are! It is eery when you find this out just by accidentally running into those of the AC denomination...yes, they've modernized perhaps more in the past 100 yrs. then the truths' fellowship...but it just seems that the kindredship is there!
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Post by JO on Dec 6, 2008 15:01:40 GMT -5
The workers would be brought up to speed,because where do workers come from. They come from the people. Those that become workers would already know. lin, what you say is true for "future" workers, but the workers that are now need to be brought up to speed and willing to face it because if they don't the "future" workers will know nothing but oppression and suppression from the older workers. That isn't kosher in my books, but then that's JMOP I agree with Lin, that we who are not in the work should be open about the history of our church. What I see all too often is parents who firmly believe the "Shores of Galilee" red herring yet their children don't buy it and most leave the fellowship as a result. It unnecessarily divides families and damages relationships. Increasing numbers of younger workers seem to be aware of the history and some older workers have deliberately brought them up to speed with it. Unfortunately other older workers refuse to talk about it, and some overseers continue to preach that we shouldn't delve into the fellowship's history. I see where they're coming from in that our personal relationship with Christ is more important than the 2x2 church's history. To follow that through we should also accept that our personal relationship with Christ is more important than membership of the 2x2 church. This problem won't go away, and eventually the history will be common knowledge I think. I feel more motivated these days to bring it up with workers and friends. I doubt we can more forward as a spiritually prosperous fellowship until we openly and honestly confront this demon and cast it out.
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copy
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Post by copy on Dec 6, 2008 16:34:20 GMT -5
Exactly! Good point. If the workers preached Jesus shed blood and what it has done for us, it wouldn't matter. this is pretty astonishing - someone should tell the workers about it
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Post by Scott Ross on Dec 6, 2008 17:19:48 GMT -5
I agree with Lin, that we who are not in the work should be open about the history of our church. What I see all too often is parents who firmly believe the "Shores of Galilee" red herring yet their children don't buy it and most leave the fellowship as a result. It unnecessarily divides families and damages relationships.And why would they buy that story? You folks that are professing on here should take a look at your kids. Are they teenagers with ready access to the internet? Do you discourage them from looking at sites such as the TMB? If so, ask yourself why..... Is it because you are afraid that they will lose their 'faith' by reading here? (or on the VOT,TTT,TLT and others) They ARE going to be reading these sites. It's just a matter of time. It would be better to read these sites with them, and point out what you agree with or disagree with on these sites (and in your church) After all, it is your kids that are the future of your church. It really doesn't matter how YOU think about these matters that is going to matter, it is how THEY think that will be their guide in the future. I was very fortunate to grow up in a family that did NOT teach exclusiveness. I heard that in meetings, but not too much at home. My folks lived a very Christ centered life, and that is what matters now in my life. THEY were my examples, and they were good ones. In reference to the title of the thread, if the overseers and workers continue to preach 'onlywayism' in regard to the fellowship, I am pretty sure that there will be quite a few of the next generation that will leave the fellowship in the future. Several of those who are now in their 40's and 50's and post here are showing dissatisfaction with the way the fellowship handles issues also. A lot of this has to do with the internet and how easy it is to communicate with others around the world, and likewise how hard it is to cover up wrongdoing in the fellowship. They understand the problems, and want to see real change for the better, and a more Christ focused teaching from the platform, and a whole lot less system teaching. I found it interesting to read emails from some who 'grade' the workers they hear, and that is what determines which conventions and special meetings they want to attend. They have no desire to go and listen to the boring workers who talk about theirs and their fellow workers sacrifices, they want to hear about Jesus and His sacrifice. They have no desire to listen to how they are expected to live under the burdens placed on them by some of the workers, but rather they want to hear about the freedom we experience living under Christ and the the grace of God. Scott
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Post by ilylo on Dec 6, 2008 17:27:53 GMT -5
They ARE going to be reading these sites. It's just a matter of time. Correction: They are reading TLT now. I know that they do because they tell me. I've lost count how many TLT readers have made contact.
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Post by jphillips on Dec 6, 2008 21:02:40 GMT -5
The Workers will continue to ignore the issue.
Many assume numerous exiting the faith if such is proclaimed, but I wonder how many might return.
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Post by Sharon on Dec 6, 2008 21:11:25 GMT -5
The Workers will continue to ignore the issue. Many assume numerous exiting the faith if such is proclaimed, but I wonder how many might return. I think what bothers me the most about this exiting the faith as well as the prominency of excommunications...is the workers generally don't appear to be disturbed by it! Do they not care what happens to folks? Have they become complacent because of all the trust funds laying about, they don't have to worry about ready cash flow from ever increasing numbers of members? Something is not right with this attitude amongst some of the workers in regards to the ease with which they accept or push the exiting of members! I thought that was what workers were supposed to do was give their lives for the sheep and now they sheep are scattering and some don't seem to give a care! I just don't get it!
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