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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 14, 2010 18:40:32 GMT -5
Hey Ram, please also keep in mind that the facts should never get in the way of a good story. Yes JO, agreed, but remember too, that "facts" and a "good story" should never get in the way of "Truth!" One has to seek the truth in the largest nation in the world, where the imagi repository exists! I'm away to do some research. While you are there, check out the old convention grounds and hymnals and..........................
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 14, 2010 18:48:35 GMT -5
~~ Here is the order from George Gittens.. WI sister met these folks first and told WI about them (these folks).... and LATER the sister and WI met these folks together. Nathan, it's really hard for people who think logically to fit this into what is known and recorded about the beginning of the F&W's fellowship. When did this meeting occur between WI, his sister and "these folks"? Is it documented? If WI and his sister really did meet "these folks", who were they and why did WI and his sister not become part of their already established fellowship? Why wouldn't WI want to be connected to them seeing as they were the whole reason he came to know about and believe in the 2X2 method message? Why would he and others not talk about the wonderful thing they had found and who had brought the method message to him? "These folks" are a figment of someone's imagination, wishful thinking and desire to justify some supposed apostolic connection. It doesn't make sense and if it doesn't make sense then it probably isn't true, as Judge Judy would say! Your not calling them liars are you? After all is there any difference between saying someone is being dishonest, a figment of someones imagination or calling them a lair. There appears to not be according to some on this board.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 14, 2010 18:50:46 GMT -5
Yes JO, agreed, but remember too, that "facts" and a "good story" should never get in the way of "Truth!" One has to seek the truth in the largest nation in the world, where the imagi repository exists! I'm away to do some research. Facts? Truth? What is this, some kinda history board? Can we get back to religion?
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Post by JO on Apr 14, 2010 19:17:19 GMT -5
Yes JO, agreed, but remember too, that "facts" and a "good story" should never get in the way of "Truth!" One has to seek the truth in the largest nation in the world, where the imagi repository exists! I'm away to do some research. While you are there, check out the old convention grounds and hymnals and.......................... .............workers lists?
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Post by JO on Apr 14, 2010 19:27:00 GMT -5
Edward Cooney said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way... it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men...To Impartial Reporter" 10/7/1909.
When Eddie referred to "this Jesus Way" he wasn't referring to a religious system of conventions, special meetings, workers lists, overseers and formalized worship.
He was speaking of "Christ in you, your hope of glory" and walking with God in a personal relationship. He was speaking of hearing the Shepherd's voice and following him - not joining the organized 2x2 system that Eddie became so concerned about over the next few years.
Referring to the religious system as "God's way" probably developed with second generation 2x2ers.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 14, 2010 20:54:41 GMT -5
Edward Cooney said, "We did NOT start this Jesus Way... it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men...To Impartial Reporter" 10/7/1909.When Eddie referred to "this Jesus Way" he wasn't referring to a religious system of conventions, special meetings, workers lists, overseers and formalized worship. He was speaking of "Christ in you, your hope of glory" and walking with God in a personal relationship. He was speaking of hearing the Shepherd's voice and following him - not joining the organized 2x2 system that Eddie became so concerned about over the next few years. Referring to the religious system as "God's way" probably developed with second generation 2x2ers. Actually it started when they took up the Living Witness Doctrine that JK preached about when he was but a lad....
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Post by open mind on Apr 14, 2010 22:19:20 GMT -5
Some say it was the Rev. John Mc'Neill; some say William Irvine's sister was the means of spiritual life to him, This in no way proves that WI's sister brought him to the 'truth', it may just mean she was highly religious...
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Post by kiwi on Apr 14, 2010 22:44:38 GMT -5
~~ How can I attend the Sunday meetings when I have to work on Sunday? How can I be in two places at the same time? By the way, you ARE attacking me by calling me dishonest. I attend conventions every year where the professing attend.... Does that make me proffesing?
After leaving the work without a college education, without work experience/history for 8 yrs, without money I had to find any type of work to support myself and family. The job I have now has been supporting my family for 15 yrs, the company has good health insurance, retirement funds, holidays pay, X-mas bonuses, etc...
The State of Oregon, where I live has the highest unemployment rate in the USA. Many people have no jobs, their homes are gone right now so I am thankful to have a job to support my family through this difficut times.
I must earn a living and care for my family God KNOWS my heart and don't worry too much what others think or say. [/color]...To Impartial Reporter" 10/7/1909. [/color][/quote] I appreciate all you have been through and the struggles you are faced with Nate. God does know the heart and he understands where you are at.[/quote] What a nice kind kiwi ;D
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Post by JO on Apr 14, 2010 23:50:33 GMT -5
Some say it was the Rev. John Mc'Neill; some say William Irvine's sister was the means of spiritual life to him, This in no way proves that WI's sister brought him to the 'truth', it may just mean she was highly religious... God brings spiritual life to whomsoever he will. The Living Witness Doctrine is simply man's wisdom that leads into a maze and error that grows in bypath ways. Does God use living witnesses to help people? Yes. Does God rely on living witnesses to help people? No. Mankind's only hope is Calvary. Its not good for a ministry organization to think its mankind's only hope.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 0:01:53 GMT -5
In 60 odd years I have never heard of 'living witness doctrine' in a meeting. Methinks this is a strawman argument.
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Post by jason on Apr 15, 2010 0:37:57 GMT -5
In 60 odd years I have never heard of 'living witness doctrine' in a meeting. Methinks this is a strawman argument. Neither have I. I tend to think it is an invention.
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Post by JO on Apr 15, 2010 1:26:57 GMT -5
What the LWD amounts to is that no man can come to the Father except through the workers.
You must have come across people who believe that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 1:48:26 GMT -5
The LWD is merely a name, not necessarily coined by or used by the F&W's, to describe a steadfast fundemental belief of many, if not the greater majority, of those in the fellowship.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 3:00:59 GMT -5
In 60 odd years I have never heard of 'living witness doctrine' in a meeting. Methinks this is a strawman argument. Neither have I. I tend to think it is an invention. Yea there seems to be a lot of inventions turned into make believe facts. Just as well that God is our judge otherwise we would be hung drawn and quartered by now
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Post by kiwi on Apr 15, 2010 3:03:44 GMT -5
What the LWD amounts to is that no man can come to the Father except through the workers. You must have come across people who believe that? Actually we are told that we can only go through Jesus to come to the Father, so it looks like another wishful thinking invention trying to turn into fact
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 3:26:28 GMT -5
What the LWD amounts to is that no man can come to the Father except through the workers. You must have come across people who believe that? Never heard anyone say that. Funny how people erect these belief structures, like Don Quixote windmills, and tilt at them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 3:38:18 GMT -5
The LWD is merely a name, not necessarily coined by or used by the F&W's, to describe a steadfast fundemental belief of many, if not the greater majority, of those in the fellowship. The subtlety of the argument must escape you Ram. We have no Living Witness Doctrine - what we DO have is a requirement that anyone who wants to join our church go through the correct channels. We believe that many people, in many ages and cultures, when there was (or is today) no Truth, can be found of God. Furthermore, we hold that no-one can judge another person's salvation. What we are asked to judge is, for ourselves, what is right and wrong.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2010 3:38:20 GMT -5
So kiwi and Bert have not heard how the workers are the only true servants of God? So do you both believe that people can be saved by preachers of the Gospel other than your own workers?
I am sure I grew up believing that one can only be saved through hearing the Gospel through a worker. Things must have changed since my day and I thought that Bert is older than me.
One must go through the right channels. I though the only channel was Jesus or do you mean the workers?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 4:29:26 GMT -5
Yes, I believe in our workers. I would not, for instance, believe in an Orthodox or Catholic priest. Those who believe all ways lead to God (ie the World Council of Churches) are forced to make so many concessions to each others beliefs that in the end all they can believe in is love - and belief in God is optional.
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 15, 2010 4:39:40 GMT -5
What the LWD amounts to is that no man can come to the Father except through the workers. You must have come across people who believe that? Never heard anyone say that. Funny how people erect these belief structures, like Don Quixote windmills, and tilt at them. It's funny too how I thought I heard people say that. I'm sure that is what they said, or at least what they inferred. Maybe they didn't inferr that at all. Perhaps I just thought they did, when in fact they were really talking about something else. Maybe they were talking about the weather. Maybe I was on Betelgeuse.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 6:16:50 GMT -5
Betelgeuse is very hot. Compared to sunny Australia, at least.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 7:00:29 GMT -5
Neither have I. I tend to think it is an invention. Yea there seems to be a lot of inventions turned into make believe facts. Just as well that God is our judge otherwise we would be hung drawn and quartered by now Worse then that, Kiwi! According to that, we'd done been rocessed, ground and put into 1 lb. tube packages and sold hither and yon! ;D
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Post by jason on Apr 15, 2010 7:00:20 GMT -5
What the LWD amounts to is that no man can come to the Father except through the workers. You must have come across people who believe that? I have never heard this belief promoted either. The problem stems, I think, from people who get confused on issues of theology which, after all, can be quite complex. Ecclesiastical issues (those pertaining to the church) are quite different from salvific issues (those pertaining to salvation). Whilst I have heard throughout my nearly 20 years of professing that the Fellowship is the "only true way" and that other "worldly churches" are wrong and false (an ecclesiastical perspective), I never heard the conversant belief that people could only come to the Father through the Workers (a salvific matter). I agree that there are implications and undertones in all of this, because the term "fellowship" and "gospel" are often used interchangeably by the Friends. To "receive the gospel" is to enter the Fellowship; to enter the Fellowship is tantamount to receiving the gospel. But it would be a gross over-simplification to suggest that that is all there is to it, or worse, that the Workers teach the heresy that you cannot know God except through their works or mediation. The Workers, I believe, do teach Christianity, even if sometimes it is bogged down in secondary matters. They may not always do it perfectly; they may not preach our individual favoured doctrines. But they do, for the most part, preach Christ and him crucified, and the necessity to follow him. There is a robust doctrine of sanctification, which is to say, that once saved we must labour to be a holy people; even (as the great Reformed theologian R.C. Sproul writes) "pummeling our own bodies if necessary to bring that is pleasing to God" into them. That is the strength of the fellowship; the most attractive thing on offer: the promotion of how to live a Christ-filled life.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 7:03:22 GMT -5
Yes, I believe in our workers. I would not, for instance, believe in an Orthodox or Catholic priest. Those who believe all ways lead to God (ie the World Council of Churches) are forced to make so many concessions to each others beliefs that in the end all they can believe in is love - and belief in God is optional. no optional thing about love at all, Bert! 1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 7:05:30 GMT -5
Never heard anyone say that. Funny how people erect these belief structures, like Don Quixote windmills, and tilt at them. It's funny too how I thought I heard people say that. I'm sure that is what they said, or at least what they inferred. Maybe they didn't inferr that at all. Perhaps I just thought they did, when in fact they were really talking about something else. Maybe they were talking about the weather. Maybe I was on Betelgeuse. I KNOW for a certainty that it is still held as a primary and most important thing for salvation....I had an email from an overseer who stated it most emphatically....they must hear the gospel through us......
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 7:08:20 GMT -5
You misread me. Love can be the lowest common denominator in these things, but often it isn't God because there is no agreement on whether there is a God or not. And as for loving Jesus - many clergy will admit there might have been some original guy called Jesus, but beyond that... how do you love a dead Jew who may or may not have existed?
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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 7:16:41 GMT -5
You misread me. Love can be the lowest common denominator in these things, but often it isn't God because there is no agreement on whether there is a God or not. And as for loving Jesus - many clergy will admit there might have been some original guy called Jesus, but beyond that... how do you love a dead Jew who may or may not have existed? Say What?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 7:29:39 GMT -5
Oh, sorry, haven't you heard? Lots of clergy these days don't believe Jesus was the Son of God. Some do believe in God, or gods, but beyond a general belief, all is vagueness. And does it matter if we are all saved anyway?
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