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Post by sharonw on Apr 15, 2010 19:31:05 GMT -5
That would be an ambiguous quote of that Impartial Reporter...but I am almost certain that we can pretty well figure this out as the early, young death of WI's sister would cause some of her family to seek salvation.....I think that leaves it wide open as to what happens next and since it is known he confessed Christ before a denominational minister...that this was the result of his great grief over his young sister's death...this is a common reaction to death esp. in someone so young. And another apparent fact that says that the above is likely what happened is the fact that after the rush of success left WI, then he seemed to slip backward into the lifestyle that he'd known previously to some degree.....that in itself says that his fevered pitch of religiousness was due to the death of his very young sister and as his grief wore away, so did his fevered pitch for religiousity. That's pure speculation your part Sharon. You don't know for sure what Irvine's sister's story is, does anyone? One reason I wonder is we knew a lady who spoke of the friends and workers she met here in the US as the same as people she knew as a young girl in the late 1800s in a country Irvine and the early workers weren't in. Maybe Lloyd's right; Looks like William Irvine can't be the founder...It must of all got started on the shores of Galilee right thats what I am starting to think [/quote] That isn't any different then when I read about "itinerant preachers" going 2X2 in my early American history book long years before the workers even become a known thing in Ireland/Scotland...wondering if they were some of those that "went all the way back to the shores of Galilee." No one ever knew what happened to those 2 men itinerant preachersx...they disappeared going West out of the colonies as the country was going West.....supposition? I still say IF WI had really gotten "saved" by the secret sect hiding in Ireland/Scotland, that he would have bragged about them instead of calling his "findings" as the Great Experiment in bhis latter days in Israel...he would NOT have gone off half cocked about the Omega message thinking he was one of the 2 witnesses mentioned in Rev. No, it was all his makeup...maybe he got an idea about it from his dead sister all right...and he might have fed his other sister the story of meeting these folks, but I think he would have written that to his "faithful" followers and it would have been readily available....and I don't think he'd made himself available to the Faith Mission...he'd known for sure that Faith Mission was not the way to go.
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Post by open mind on Apr 15, 2010 22:02:46 GMT -5
I dont know what part of Aus that Bert and Jason are from, but you only had to be at Maroota Convention (NSW, Aus) this year and listen to Peter Doeke ranting and raving to see that it is no lie that some of the workers believe that you can only come to Jesus by them!
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Post by open mind on Apr 15, 2010 22:03:50 GMT -5
We are convicts...just look at our society
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Post by freespirit on Apr 15, 2010 22:34:41 GMT -5
I dont know what part of Aus that Bert and Jason are from, but you only had to be at Maroota Convention (NSW, Aus) this year and listen to Peter Doeke ranting and raving to see that it is no lie that some of the workers believe that you can only come to Jesus by them! What did he say? curious, fs
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Post by open mind on Apr 15, 2010 22:39:42 GMT -5
A whole lot of stuff...condemning 'worldly' churches, the 'servants of the truth' are the way to God and heaven, "only the workers are qualified to baptise"...I switched off about then
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Post by freespirit on Apr 15, 2010 22:46:29 GMT -5
A whole lot of stuff...condemning 'worldly' churches, the 'servants of the truth' are the way to God and heaven, "only the workers are qualified to baptise"...I switched off about then Here ya go: ETA: Have you considered writing him a letter?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2010 22:55:19 GMT -5
One method whereby the unbroken line of succession was preached when I was growing up was the repeated references to the "churches started by man". It was the very fact that all denominational churches had a starting date and founder(s) condemned them as false churches. If people say they never heard that kind of preaching, they probably weren't listening.
In some ways I was fortunate that I wasn't a religious little kid otherwise that kind of preaching would have greatly affected me, especially later when the truth of the 1890's came out. However, it was in my mid to later teens that I gave serious thought to and consciously rejected the exclusivity doctrine so the beginnings of the church only made sense to me. I greeted the knowledge with a sigh of relief, not anger. It's a great feeling when pieces of a puzzle start to come together.
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Post by JO on Apr 16, 2010 0:25:49 GMT -5
One method whereby the unbroken line of succession was preached when I was growing up was the repeated references to the "churches started by man". It was the very fact that all denominational churches had a starting date and founder(s) condemned them as false churches. If people say they never heard that kind of preaching, they probably weren't listening. It would be sad if workers preaching only made sense to those who aren't really listening...
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Post by kiwi on Apr 16, 2010 0:45:39 GMT -5
I dont know what part of Aus that Bert and Jason are from, but you only had to be at Maroota Convention (NSW, Aus) this year and listen to Peter Doeke ranting and raving to see that it is no lie that some of the workers believe that you can only come to Jesus by them! Which of his sermons was he ranting and raving in?
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 16, 2010 8:00:19 GMT -5
There is another sister of Wm Irvine who died at a young age: Elizabeth. She died in 1887, the year after Margaret died (1886) There is no document stating the name of the supposed sister of WmI that this tale is about...Nate ASSUMES it is Margaret, and states it as fact...but it is merely his speculation or opinion. The Eleven Children of John Irvine and Elisabeth Grassom Irvine
John, Margaret, William, James, Agnes, Henry #1, Henry #2, Elizabeth, Jane, Helen, Janet John 1859 Register 483 Kilsyth Entry 47 On March 14th at Newtown Kilsyth Father John Irvine, Ironstone Miner Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressom Informant John Irvine, father, present Margaret 1861 Register 483 Kilsyth Entry 47 On February 24th at Newtown Kilsyth Father John Irvine, Engine Driver Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present William 1863 Register 483 Kilsyth Entry 20 On January 7th at Newtown Kilsyth Father John Irvine, Engine Keeper Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present James 1864 Register 498 Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire Entry 280 On October 5th at Strone Kirkintilloch Father John Irvine, Colliery Manager Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present Agnes (See Agnes Photo in the TTT Photo Gallery) 1866 Register 498 Kirkintilloch, Entry 173 On June 23rd at Strone Kirkintilloch Father John Irvine, Colliery Manager Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present Henry #1 Born at Kirkintilloch, Dunbartonshire Born March 15, 1868 Died in infancy. Henry #2 Born at Govan, Lanarkshire Born January 26, 1870 Nothing further known Elizabeth 1871 Register 646/1 Govan, Lakarkshire, Glasgow Entry 158 Vol II On December 12th at 113 Henderson Street Kinning Park Father John Irvine, Iron Master's Weigher Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present Jane (also known as Jeanie) 1874 Register 483 Kilsyth Entry 40 On February 1st at Newtown Kilsyth, Stirlingshire Father John Irvine, Pit Manager Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present Helen (also known as Nellie)(See Helen's Photo in the TTT Photo Gallery) 1876 Register 483 Kilsyth, Entry 28 On January 25th at Backrow Kilsyth, Stirlingshire Father John Irvine, Pit Oversman Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressham Informant John Irvine, father, present Janet (also known as Jennie) 1880 Register 495 Cumbernauld Dumbartonshire Entry 31 On February 9th at 73 Auchinstarry Row Cumbernauld Father John Irvine, Colliery Oversman Mother Elisabeth Irvine M.S. Gressam Informant John Irvine, father, present Order of Irvine Family Deaths Died 1868 Henry Irvine #1 1870 Henry Irvine #2 1886 Margaret Irvine 1887 Elizabeth Irvine 1897 Elizabeth Irvine, Mother 1913 John Irvine, Father 1918 John Irvine, Son 1928 James Irvine 1938 Agnes I. Freebairn 1937 Jane (Jeanie) Irvine Comrie 1947 William Irvine After 1947 Janet (Jennie) Irvine Clelland (Living at time of Wm. Irvine's Death) 1952 Helen (Nellie) I. Clelland (Living at time of Wm. Irvine's Death) For more Irvine family genealogy, see link below: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_family/
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Post by jason on Apr 16, 2010 8:36:07 GMT -5
Cherie,
Would it be correct to say that according to this family list, none of the Irvine sisters would be in a position to write this "missing link" letter in 1910? They were all deceased. And I see no sister by the name of "Dorothy". Again, this suggests to my mind that the letter is a fake.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 8:49:32 GMT -5
There were 4 Irvine sisters still alive as of 1938, and the youngest would have been 30 years old in 1910.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 16, 2010 9:18:26 GMT -5
Cherie, Elizabeth was only 15 yrs old when she died in 1887... TOO young. So I say Margaret is my choice NOT Elizabeth. NB: Your "choice" isn't "fact." Regardless, the death of a sister of any age could turn a brother to thinking seriously about eternity. And 2 deaths in rapid succession could definitely cause more serious thoughts to enter a brother's mind. The Impartial Reporter articles does not state anythign about the sister hearing it from someone else who brot it from some other country to Ireland. All the 8/10/1910 IMP article says about his sister is this: "So that in other words, derivative or successive christianity is now re-established via William Irvine and Edward Cooney only. This is all the more remarkable and contradictory since William Irvine has a great difficulty to determine his own spiritual Father, and he professedly the great grandfather of all! Some say it was the Rev. John McNeill; some say Wm. Irvine’s sister was the means of spiritual life to him, and some are not very sure but that since Thomas was a doubting apostle, they are contented to be a brother of his, and some do not trouble much as long as they keep near the dinner hour, and do not fall out with headquarters. " (from: www.tellingthetruth.info/brg_newspapers/1910.php#1910August25) This Impartial Reporter article does NOT substantiate the Gittins story who heard it from Robert Darling, who heard it from You would be presenting all the details if you mentioned BOTH sisters deaths - a year a part, instead of presenting your "choice" as a fact, and naming his sister Margaret as "the one" who best fits your scenario which has little to no documented support or basis.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 16, 2010 10:01:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 10:14:54 GMT -5
It's possible that something about his sister inspired WI toward Christian faith. That makes no difference as to whether or not WI was a founder of the mission of workers and development of the house churches of friends.
Many Christian people were inspired by others to faith and then went on to found a church group. Irvine was no different.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2010 10:48:53 GMT -5
It's possible that something about his sister inspired WI toward Christian faith. That makes no difference as to whether or not WI was a founder of the mission of workers and development of the house churches of friends. Many Christian people were inspired by others to faith and then went on to found a church group. Irvine was no different. ~~ William Irvine Founder story has been the straw that broke the camel's back for many of the friends and some workers the last 20 yrs. So, it makes a BIG difference to many of those raise in this fellowship.... NOT to you, me and some of others in the fellowship.
That was the whole agenda of TTT and TLT websites... WI the founder of 2x2 in 1897 from the begining. It was WI own experiement man-made idea/system. There were no workers or friends prior to 1897.Nathan, you know what? It only makes a difference if you believe no one can be saved without being in the 2x2 system. If you don't believe that, then it really doesn't matter that people left the 2x2 system and went to other christian churches or even other religions. I thought you believed that the way to salvation was a belief in god. Why would it matter how one does that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 12:27:27 GMT -5
If your big concern is to prove to people that there were similar practices before WI, then you have done your job. I don't know anyone who disputes that. However, I don't see where WI's sister gives me any confidence that she practiced anything similar. She lived in an era where many people were questioning the old ways and in the 1800's many new breakaway churches got started in an attempt to put something right that they saw as wrong.
The real issue of the history was never so much the history itself, but that the unbroken line idea was one of the three underpinnings of an exclusive franchise on God. When that underpinning was knocked out, it called into question the integrity of the ministry. For those people brought up under the unbroken line idea, your work hasn't helped them at all. The existence of others who have exercised similar practices to the current church means nothing to most people. It's interesting but not particularly relevant.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 16, 2010 13:13:51 GMT -5
From Cherie's TTT website: In about 1967 or 1968, Robert Darling spoke at Silverdale, British Columbia Canada Convention. His text was Daniel 2: 34, 35 & 45, particularly about the stone "cut out of the mountain without hands," which "filled the whole earth." He then said that the stone was William Irvine's sister. She became very ill and died. According to Robert, she supposedly had a dream which she related to William, which deeply stirred him and in some manner supposedly influenced him religiously from then on. Robert Darling's main point was that we should be crediting Wm's sister God took in death before William Irvine even began preaching--instead of crediting William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. Wm's sister was, therefore, "the stone made without hands." ~~~ Donald Fisher, a California brother worker, wrote Fred Miller a letter sometime before 1982: "In 1967, I talked with Robert Darling, at the Olympia conv. grounds. At that time he told me that of the first 116 Workers who went forth, only eight were yet alive, he being one and he told me the names of the other seven. ~~ 1905 2x2s workers list of 200 names. www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_lists/wrkr1905.php#DarlingRobOur conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told an interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine." ~~ When the readers accept William Irvine's sister account then William Irvine founder theory is incorrect. Our conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told an interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine." "In his own mind"...that does NOT speak to fact...how he came up with that over the years is supposition. "crediting William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. [/color] Wm's sister was, therefore, " the stone made without hands."" No, IF WI's sister gave WI the "ideas" then it would be "woman-made"! The history facts don't give the time frame WI's sister worked for the supposed mtg-in-the-home folks. But it apparently was NOT long...so would she really have KNOWN that much about it? Other then it happened? I doubt it....We all know for complete strangers to "come to the truth" takes quite a few gospel mtgs. so fellowship mtgs. take a lot longer...strangers may be "impressed" with what they see and feel, but they have little "facts" to relate to anyone else unless they've been around fellowship mtgs. most often for years...i.e. a retired railroad man started coming to mtgs. with his wife who'd been raised 2X2 but had not professed until about the time he retired. He came every Sun. a.m and sit silently in mtgs. for over 10 years. This man was a very intelligent man, but he never read the bible before he finally told one of the sister workers at a spec. mtg. that he was "joining up" with the fellowship....they then begin to have "bible studies" with him and his wife because the man had NO idea after over 10 years of coming to Sun fellowship mtgs. how to meditate and begin to glean something of the bible for himself. He admitted all of this. This is only 1 out of about 15 people I know of in very similar cases, the quickest one I can think of of those 15 was in mtgs. for about 5 yrs. so with this dying sister, I doubt she would have had enough "clue" other then "home mtgs."! She ccould NOT in any way given enough even out of a dream to have "passed on" anything of the apostolic succession or the works of the Apostles! This is making bird's nests out of air, the eggs are falling through!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 16, 2010 13:22:23 GMT -5
Nathan, you know what? It only makes a difference if you believe no one can be saved without being in the 2x2 system. If you don't believe that, then it really doesn't matter that people left the 2x2 system and went to other christian churches or even other religions. I thought you believed that the way to salvation was a belief in god. Why would it matter how one does that? ~~~ It's not that simple. If it was WI, and 200 friends and workers would NOT have LEFT what they believed it was man-made system to RETURN or follow the method and teachings of Jesus in 1899-2010.
Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-28 "Many will say unto me that day, Lord, Lord, have we NOT prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out demons? and in thy name done MANY wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity."
Jesus said, "Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for WIDE is the gate, and broad is the road, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY enter through it. Because small is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto LIFE! and FEW there be that FIND it.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine and put them into practice, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house on the Rock."
" ~~~ It's not that simple. If it was WI, and 200 friends and workers would NOT have LEFT what they believed it was man-made system to RETURN or follow the method and teachings of Jesus in 1899-2010."
Nathan...for many of us who have left the fellowship...we left for other reasons then WI being the founder! We left that which was supposedly the only true way, but due to all the fruits of darkness that's turning out to have been in the fellowship ever since the day WI started the finding, the founder however you want to say it....this alone makes the fellowship manmade, otherwise there would be NO fruits of darkness IF it was all God made! That's just reasonable thinking....and I'm not saying that there wouldn't be CSA going on, I'm talking about those who are in power positions doing the hiding, secreting away and oppressing the weaker ones, the victims by even to the exclusion found by "excommunication"..[b].that is NOT of the Holy Spirit NOR is it of God....[/b]the fellowship is NO different then all the other Christian sects of this day...maybe a whole lot worse then some for most have a board of directors that hold the preachers feet to the fire when and if something is out of kelter..... So don't continue to say that the fellowship is the ONLY God made sect...it is NOT, never has been for WI was immoral and there has been immorality all the way down to this day.....God is NOT pleased with this "sect"! It is being cleansed now and it may well be out the door.....as far as God is concerned!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 13:48:37 GMT -5
Our conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told an interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine."
"In his own mind"...that does NOT speak to fact...how he came up with that over the years is supposition.
This is how tenuous or highly dubious links are often formed, i.e. "in his own thoughts" or "in his own mind."
History repeats itself. The Dorothy Irvine letter follows the same example, fashioned "in the thoughts of the author."
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2010 14:56:15 GMT -5
The answer to your above question is NO..... but those who believed Christ through the friends will be brought in having fellowship with the workers, the gospel meetings, Sunday morning fellowship and others friends. So.... I guess that I will ask you again a bit differently. Do you believe that someone can believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior without EVER coming in contact with ANYONE affiliated with the truth fellowship and be saved? Scott You could ask the same question about christianity. There were hundreds of years when christianity was unknown in most parts of the world.
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Post by september on Apr 16, 2010 17:48:11 GMT -5
~~~ It's not that simple. If it was WI, and 200 friends and workers would NOT have LEFT what they believed it was man-made system to RETURN or follow the method and teachings of Jesus in 1899-2010. ." Eh? You know that for sure? I'm not certain you understand much of the state of the Christian Churches in the British Isles at the end of the 1800's. In 1859 there was what has been called "The Great Revival" right across Ireland (and to some extent Britain). People were more spiritually aware than in previous times and the effect of the Great Revival lasted for a number of decades so its fairly likely people were still searching and examining themselves and their churches around the time WI was preaching with the FM. The fact that the fellowship was man made had little resonance with those that left mainstream churches. They were seeking simplicity and the fellowship offered that at that time. Then, as now, the fact the fellowship had mere mortals as founders was unimportant. The problems started when the origins were hidden or presented as something else (Robert Darling's flight of fancy re: WI's sister) and the more prosaic (although surely not, if God's hand was guiding?) truth was learned.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2010 18:46:23 GMT -5
Nice summary of what was going on at that time September.
From what I can read from the early worker days, they were looking for more than simplicity, but that too. They found that the cloaked clergy reading a monotonous sermon in his privileged position wasn't bringing life to the uninvolved laity. From that came our participatory meetings, small and simple, preaching without notes so that it would come from the heart prompted by God, and no clerical garb to distinguish the workers from the laity. Our early traditions were largely a reaction against the standard fare of the day. Early workers looked into the bible for clues of the 1st century system for guidance of what to do, and at the mainstream churches for what not to do.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 16, 2010 18:56:25 GMT -5
Nice summary of what was going on at that time September. From what I can read from the early worker days, they were looking for more than simplicity, but that too. They found that the cloaked clergy reading a monotonous sermon in his privileged position wasn't bringing life to the uninvolved laity. From that came our participatory meetings, small and simple, preaching without notes so that it would come from the heart prompted by God, and no clerical garb to distinguish the workers from the laity. Our early traditions were largely a reaction against the standard fare of the day. Early workers looked into the bible for clues of the 1st century system for guidance of what to do, and at the mainstream churches for what not to do. This is the biggest clue of the success of the fellowship.... b]at the mainstream churches for what not to do
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 16, 2010 19:04:53 GMT -5
My impression is that the early workers were responding to the spiritual complacency of mainstream churches. Going to a worship service and giving money to the church was a regular obligation; people did it out of habit, but found themselves unaffected and uninspired.
The early workers seized the opportunity to climb out of a spiritual rut and share their enthusiasm with others.
If we can learn anything from those early workers and the sacrifices they made to spread the gospel message, it should be that we need to continually examine ourselves to be sure that we haven't fallen into spiritual complacency again.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 16, 2010 19:23:41 GMT -5
Cherie, Would it be correct to say that according to this family list, none of the Irvine sisters would be in a position to write this "missing link" letter in 1910? They were all deceased. And I see no sister by the name of "Dorothy". Again, this suggests to my mind that the letter is a fake. Could it be that Dorothy was the name used ie: her second name which I understand was quite common.
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Post by kiwi on Apr 16, 2010 19:25:35 GMT -5
Nice one
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Post by sharonw on Apr 16, 2010 20:55:28 GMT -5
Cherie, Would it be correct to say that according to this family list, none of the Irvine sisters would be in a position to write this "missing link" letter in 1910? They were all deceased. And I see no sister by the name of "Dorothy". Again, this suggests to my mind that the letter is a fake. Could it be that Dorothy was the name used ie: her second name which I understand was quite common. Reach up and knock on wood, Kiwi! The last link is a hoax...and I'm, surprised that you'd want to hang on to any tiny scrap that it was not a hoax... Come on! IF Nathan who has held to the "sister" link for ever in a day doesn't buy the "missing link letter" then nobody else should~ I think someone is having fun at the expense of others! And I'm not certain that it is very nice!
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