I have found the 2X2'

[ariandgabe]

I have found the 2X2’s this ‘Way’ and this is what I learned:

A 2X2 Member wrote me:
“We do pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and we search the scriptures for answers. The Holy Spirit does not teach one group of people one thing, and teach something different to another group.”

Odon:
“The Holy Spirit does not teach one group of people one thing, and teach something different to another group” that is true, but you assume that your ‘Way’ was started by the Holy Spirit. Yet I have asked you and the Workers over and over again to look at Matt 10 and Luke 10, and that your group does NOT fit into those verses. Your group of 2X2 Workers are NOT mentioned among the names of the 12 Apostles, nor can they be the ones from the 70 sent out 1900 years ago who later (the Bible quotes) ‘came back rejoicing’. Neither do they have the ‘powers’ given to the original 70 or the 12. They don’t even believe in them.

2X2 Member wrote:
Just for clarification, we are not following William Irvine. We are following Christ.

Odon:
Every Christian, or non-Christian denomination says that; “We don’t follow Mohammad, but Allah, we don’t follow Joseph Smith, but we follow Jesus Christ, we don’t follow the ‘name’ Jehovah, but we follow a ‘god’ whose name is ‘Jehovah’, we don’t follow a god of ‘Sabbath’ but we follow a god who can be worshipped ‘only on the Sabbath’, and so on.

Dear Members and Workers; the Workers that are “leading” your church are NOT the twelve chosen by Christ.
Please read: Matt 10:1
“And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease”

First; your workers do not even believe that they can have; “power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease, and to raise the dead.” So why keep pretending and grieving the Power of the Holy Spirit?

Second; The very reason that the Bible mentions the names of these twelve is to make sure no one ‘else’ will duplicate the announcement of the arrival of Christ; “Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot.”
God knew that many will try to imitate, and has been already announced, the arrival of “another” and we know that is the “Anti-Christ”. So just please, in the name of Jesus and His Holy Spirit, think; who are your “Workers” and ‘what’ are they really achieving? I have never read of a woman Apostle named June or Joyce chosen by Christ.

You may not be following William Irvine himself anymore, but you are definitely following the crooked path he started.

I am so sorry that you (2X2 Member) took the ‘burden’ of this spiritual battle, which is supposed to be fought by the leaders of your church, those who supposed to have been double blessed and are trained to stand up against just such adversity; Eph 6:12
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

I am challenging the very foundation of your church as to what it’s been built on, and your leaders, the shepherds of the flock are hiding in silence. Shouldn’t they be defending your faith?
(This too should give you a hint as to who exactly started this “Way” and why your Elders and your church must remain hidden.)

John 3:21
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV

Now that we proved that Irvine’s 2X2 Workers are NOT any of the twelve, let’s see if we can identify them in the 70 that Jesus sent out;

Luke 10:1-12
10:1 The Seventy Sent Out
After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go. 2 Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3 Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. 5 But whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. 8 Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you. 9 And heal the sick there, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.' 10 But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11'The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.' 12 But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom than for that city.
NKJV

First, when Jesus seen that; “The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few” the seventy were sent to ‘prepare the way’ for Christ “After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.”

Where? Where He himself was about to go. There was a sense of emergency; “Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves. Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road.” This plan had to be done quickly, because He said; “I assure you that you will not finish your work in all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.” Matt 10:23 So it could be fulfilled exactly as prophesied, before that Dragon; Satan could raise his army to mess things up, as he tried at Christ’s birth by killing all the children up to two years old in hopes of killing the Holy One.

“And remain in the same house.. Do not go from house to house.” None of this is done by these “Workers” Irvine sent out. Matter of fact, they do the opposite, and teach the opposite;
“behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves” Indicating ‘un-believers houses’
“Do not go from house to house” Instead they go house to house of those who are already members.

“And heal the sick” “19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19 Instead the Workers teach that no one has those powers of the Holy Spirit anymore.

But the most important thing of all was to; “say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you'”

If your 2X2’s preach that 'The kingdom of God has come near to you' it is the wrong message because the Kingdom of God has arrived at Pentecost 1900 years ago.

If they teach that people should be baptized in the “name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”, why do they claim to be the seventy and the twelve that Christ sent out for a special purpose? This is the duty of “ALL” Christians today.

Luke 10:17
Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." Here again we see that today’s 2X2’s are NOT who they claim to be, since the “original seventy” has “returned with joy”, 2000 years ago rejoicing that; "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." thus, completing their task. (I heard of no demons cast out of people, or dead raised by Irvine’s 2X2’s because by their own admission, they do not even believe in those Spiritual powers.)

By reading the letters that William Irvine wrote, it is obvious that he believed he was more then just a man. He thought he was someone great, even as great as Jesus himself. Just like many other self proclaimed prophets of his time. The Mormon prophets and now gods, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, has also done the same thing. He too sent his workers out two by two to “prepare a way” for him. You will see that these men were one of many anti-Christ’s who deceived their followers.

By going out 2X2, you have accepted William Irvine as the "Alpha Prophet" spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Acts 3:20-23.

But we know very well that the scripture was written by Holy Prophets of God pointing to the coming of Jesus Christ and His Kingdom, NOT about these false prophets like; Mohammad, William Irvine, Joseph Smith, George Walker and the ‘like’.

Like many other false prophets, William Irvine tried to imitate Christ by starting to send his own disciples 1900 years later to ONCE AGAIN preach; 'The Kingdom of heaven is near!' This time, it was for his own glory.

Also, “8 He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff — no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belt”
Workers today say that they depend on their ‘faith’ for everything in their lives. But in reality they depend on the church. They go from “member to member” who supply them with cars, money, food and lodging, which is no different from the Catholic nuns. But that is NOT the only point, the point is, the job of the ones that Jesus sent out 2 by 2 has been accomplished, they returned and now waited for that “Promise”;

Acts 1:4-8
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV

We are to “die” to this flesh and walk according to the Spirit and be a “light” to this darkened world.

The Apostles and the early church members gathered in the synagogues, in homes, in rented buildings any time of the week as many times as they could. If building a building is more convenient for the congregation, so be it.

If by any chance you (or Elders, Workers, Prophets) can find me even ONE place where the Bible apposes the gathering of the believers in a building or synagogue, or cathedral or stadium, by the riverside, on farms, fields, barns, anywhere other then houses, please show me.

Please (Members), you are smart and intelligent people, so I ask you to search your hearts and the scriptures and tell me; what is the difference between renting the Lyons Club, or building an exact building and assemble there?
My old church “The Apostolic Nazarenes” gathered in houses first and when the congregation grew bigger, they added a hall to the ministers’ house and gathered there. When that became too small, they built a big building and assembled there. What is wrong with that? Just don’t make “It” (the building) the “Church”. Make sure that we never forget that where two or three are gathered together is the church.
All the utility bills are added up and paid by the members. There is NO collection of money in church, everyone gives the person who’s responsible for paying the bills their portion. If a member needs help, they do take up a collection, but it is for that purpose only. They call the church; “The Gathering”, like we ask; where is the ‘gathering’ next week?

No one ever got ‘paid’ for any service and there was always an abundance of Ministers and Elders.

So I really don’t understand this big deal that the 2X2’s make of this; “church in a house’ thing? Thousands of other believers throughout the world do the same thing.

Dear friends in Christ, this very thing what continues to keep the world in darkness; the desire to worship the visible (people we see, a church that has a particular belief system) over the invisible God described in the Bible. Why is it that a god has to be visible for people to believe in Him?

If someone teaches the truth that cannot be disproved, people shy away from that person no matter how great or lowly or weak or powerful he may be. As Jesus said; 43 I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. John 5:43

But why settle for less then the whole truth? Why settle for waiting till the end where you get to the door, bang on it, and get the answer; “Get away from me you workers of iniquity!”?

Well, you don’t have to. I don’t care what cult you belong to, or how many generations your family have been serving and slaving for a denomination, or a sect, or a ‘Way’, if you have that true desire to know the Lord, I mean that one True and Only God, you can. Unless you pull up a chair or a bed and retire, you WILL find the Spirit or the Spirit will find you, even hell itself cannot prevail against it.

I didn’t say this, God said it. And if God said it, then you better believe that He will not rest until His Son has you in His arms.
Matt 7:7-11
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Who are the ‘Wonderful and nice’ people? Let’s see who is nice according to the Bible?
Mark 8:33
33 But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." NKJV

Wow! He called Peter, Satan. So how was Gods plan; “18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Matt 16:18 going to be fulfilled?

Here is the secret; “For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

This is how you find the right church, the right Christians, the right and true ‘Way’. To find others on this ‘narrow path’, you must look at what’s on the persons mind. What is he ‘mindful’ of?
Many will say; “we are the closest to the Bible, we follow a narrower path then any other church. If you find a closer followers of the Bible then us, then we will follow them.”

But when they find a church that carved even a closer path to the Bible then they have, they don’t jump to meet them, instead they remain in silence. By showing NO interest, they revealed their fakeness and shows just how ‘cold’ they really are.
To ‘follow’ a ‘lie’, you must lie yourself.
Matt 24:23-25
23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
NKJV

People have been deceived into thinking that we should just stay where we are, leave everyone alone and God on the last day will sort everything out. Sorry, but that’s the biggest lie of the Devil yet. Mark 2:21-22
21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins."
NKJV

You cannot be a new wine in an old wineskin, meaning you cannot be filled with the New Spirit of Truth, that is ready to burst out and tell all the world of what you know and have, and remain in your old church, with their old worn out traditions and sermons. You wouldn’t want to put on a new peace of cloth on your old worn out clothes, it would just tear away from the rest and make even a bigger hole. Dear friend, get out of those rags and put on a brand new robe and come walk with the Lord into that wedding fest before the door is shut, because; “26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'“ Luke 13:26-27

[Scott Ross]

Hey Odon,

I have never read of a woman Apostle named June or Joyce chosen by Christ.

Not sure if you read on the main board, but June passed away.

Scott

[ariandgabe]

Yes, I just found out. Thank you Scott.

I am so sad, but this is why we must turn to the truth as soon as the Spirit of Truth stirs our hearts because tomorrow may be too late.
I pray with tears for her partner Joyce, because I truly believe that she understood what me and June D were talking about; this false 'Way' of the 2X2's. I have done all I could, this is why it is written:
Heb 3:7-15
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, 'They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.'
11 So I swore in My wrath,
'They shall not enter My rest.'"

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

"Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."
NKJV
In tears of sadness, a brother in Christ: Odon

[ariandgabe]

Are there Apostles today?
Dear brothers in Christ, the first instruction that is given to those that study the Scriptures is to examine what is written by some basic rules, like; when it was written (like for instance, before the ascension or after), and to whom it is written, and ‘by whom’ it is said, or who is saying this.

First of all read Acts 1:21-26; “And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples” to talk. With Jesus ascension, he was the rock that held them together until the coming of the Holy Spirit. They were just talking about closing the door (or book) on Judas and prayed to the Lord as to who should it be to take his place; Acts 1:25 “to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." But there was no answer.

Second, It was ‘not’ the Holy Spirit that called them together to do this, it was the Apostles idea. As you read on, you will see that as they prayed; “24 and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.” The Apostles did not hear Jesus answer, or a voice by the Holy Spirit, or an angel. God had other plans that were already in the making. Because of their impatience, they tried to do a very important thing without the Holy Spirits guidance. And without that, they had to resort to their old ways and customs of casting lots; “26 and they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”

So here they thought that they did something wise by rushing to replace Judas so their number would remain 12, but as we read later on, Jesus had someone else in mind. As He personally picked the original 12 Apostles, it was Jesus that would later pick the replacement and NOT men. Gal 1:1
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead).

Grace Bible Church:
This LAST passage is devastating for those who believe that there are apostles today. In order to be an apostle one has to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. Paul says that Jesus was seen last of all by him. He is the last one to see Jesus after his resurrection. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle. Therefore, there can be no apostles today.

Wow, who says there cannot be Apostles today? Who says what God can or cannot do? As I showed you from scripture that it was the Apostles idea to pick a replacement for Judas. It was also they who try to come up with some kind of standard as to what this person should be like. This is NOT how God operates in the New Kingdom. He doesn’t go by; who saw what, how long was he with Christ, how many wonders did he see Jesus do, this is mans ideas. And then, since many fit those categories, they resorted to casting lots.

When Jesus chooses an Apostle, He will do it with power and might. It is between Him and the man He choose and NOT depending on the roll of a dice. This is why all the confusion, people think that since it is written in the Bible, it is Gods Words talking. Whoa there, Satan and the Pharisees say a lot of things in the Bible, are we to build a church on that too? Oh yes.. that’s exactly what’s happening.

The good people of Grace Bible Church has set a standard for God in picking Apostles; “Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.” Sorry God, Peter and the rest of those 120 gathered together has made the rules.

Not likely my dear friend that is NOT what the Bible teaches. But neither are the ‘Workers’ or ‘Elders’ of the 2X2 church, Apostles. No Apostle of our day could possibly ‘hide’ when someone challenges the very foundation of their church. And what Apostle would say: “Sorry, we ran out of power to do miracles. Come back later.
I pray Lord:
Acts 26:17-18
“… gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'”
NKJV

[pianoman]

I am not wanting to be contrary, but you sound like you have all of the answers and I am going to tell you straight up, that anyone that I meet that "has all the answers" is the last person I am going to rely on. I can take scripture and turn what you believe on its head, but that is not my purpose. I am not defending the 2x2's but am simply pointing out what I have found and I have been around for a few years. Everyone is taught something and maybe there is something in all things that we need to listen to. This is not a personal attack, or an attack of any kind, just something that needed to be said, in my most humble opinion.

[ariandgabe]

Thank you Pianoman, and may God bless you for that response.
It was nice of you to point something out, anything is better then to keep silent when you believe someone is headed toward error. But I'm a bit confused;

You said:
I am going to tell you straight up, that anyone that I meet that "has all the answers" is the last person I am going to rely on.

I will answer to that with: "Anyone I meet 'that has all the answers' (I settle with even just 'some' answers) is the FIRST person I seek out, call on and invite in my home."

If you have been around for a few years my friend, then you should have learned that; very few seem to have the answers when it comes to the true interpretation of the Bible. That is because most Biblical Scholars, Preaschers are led by human wisdom and not by the Spirit.
Second; they are 'mindful of worldly things' and not the things of God.

How sad that you made up your mind NOT to 'rely' on me because I seem to have all the answers. Well then my dear friend, you are left with sitting in a church and listening to preachers who not only 'don't have all the answers', but half the time 'don't even know what they're talking about'.

If God found me worthy enough to reveal the truth, then:

John 8:46-47
46 Which one of you can prove that I am guilty of sin? If I tell the truth, then why do you not believe me? 47 He who comes from God listens to God's words ..."
TEV

As for 'having all the answers', may the Name of the Lord be glorified, if you truly believe that, and that I am not contradicting by 'adding' or 'taking away' from His Words.

And 'no' my dear friend, you are NOT being contrary, and if you DO find anything I say 'contrary' to the Scriptures, then please let me know by pointing it out for me. I will only LOVE you more for it.

Jesus has 'all the answers', and He said 'we can too';

Matt 7:7-11
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

For now, we will have to settle for Christ talking through men (each other) to get 'all our answers' from. Jesus will NOT come down in person to teach you. He will use those who truly desire to know Him, who want to serve Him NOT for some temporary worldly gain, but to win a crown for themselves and others in that 'Eternal Kingdom'.

So do you really mean that; 'one who has all the answers would be the last person you would rely on'?

I ask only this: "walk with me" only if we see eye to eye. I am seeking out 'believers' whom I can walk with, NOT to lead, or to be led by.

Friend, you should 'Rely' on only those who speak the truth as is revealed in the Bible. If you notice contradictions, 'go and tell that brother. If he doesn't listen to you and two or three others', stop relying on that person. But "Follow" NO ONE except Christ.

God bless you my friend,
In Jesus name: Odon

[pianoman]

Dear Odon, I am glad that you did not take offence as none was intended, truly. I just have been around so many that believe they are annointed by God and I look at their take on certain scriptures and I must say I find error. If you read, and I know you do, you know that God will allow and even cause men to have delusions about the scriptures, 'that they would believe a lie'. Scholars are book smart but when it comes to the bible I have to say that knowledge of God's word and plans are only given to those that are humble and willing to receive them. Once again I am not judging, as I am not the final judge, but I read some of your other postings and I will have to say that I am not convinced that what you write is accurate. One small example is regarding Apostles. Paul only saw Jesus in a vision and we don't know if others have also seen Him in a vision. Jesus ascended into heaven after spending the 40 days with his disciples and "the number was about 120" shortly before the Pentacost. Now this is what I read in my bible the KJ version. I am saying that this is what I read and believe. What you have translated in speaking about apostles and other things like the diciples, is your translation. I also want to point this very important fact out. I really believe that all of this minutiae is what cause division in people. I look at the things that Jesus did and said and if I follow that, which is a lifetime job, none of the rest matters. I have seen too many time where one man can tear apart another man's accounting or translation by putting a little twinge on a scripture. Isnt' it really more important that in our everyday lives we are following Jesus and not trying to re-write the bible or translate it so we can understand it better. In Peter's letter it say the if we pray for understanding we will get it. If we don't believe that, we are limiting God's power as we do in so many other things. The reason I stated what I did is that I have met too many that feel that they can answer every question on the bible and Jesus, who knew all things would not answer certain questions, because they were asked in the wrong spirit. I simply would listen to anything someone has to say, but I still think that if someone has all of the answers, then being a human being, they have to be in error somewhere. If they are not human, then they can't be wrong and they also can't be from God. (I am referring to men today.) I certainly don't have all of the answers, but have seen those that are on such a quest for knowledge that they miss the entire point and that comes from Jesus and Paul. Jesus thanked His Father for revealing these things unto babes and Paul warns, in Corinthians about the "wisdom" of man. You tell me that if I notice contradictions, to tell that brother and bring two or three others. Well I have seen two or three others that are totally indoctrinated in their ways, be it Baptist or 2x2, and they will agree because they have been taught to believe a certain way and they will not listen to another point of view. Another thing about those that have all of the answers, I find they are like me in that they also have two ears and one mouth, the difference being they usually spend twice as much talking with one mouth, than listening with two ears. I certainly do not want to be negative as the love of Christ cannot live in that atmosphere. I really don't know why what you wrote made me re-act, but I did. I am constantly in trouble for speaking my mind, especially to those that appear to have more authority than me. I claim no authority, but the words of my Saviour, Jesus and I wish you all of the best in your relationship with Him and our Father. Please forgive me if I caused one moment of anguish to your spirit, Sincerely in Him..........Pianoman

[ariandgabe]

Thank the Lord and you Pianoman, for answering once more with the intent of correction and admonishment.

First of all, I listen carefully to everything anyone tells me especially when it comes to the Bible.
Over the years I had the pleasure to debate with a few scholars and when they felt that their theories were threatened, they used their knowledge as ‘armor’. They used words that I had to look up to get its meaning. I felt so helpless; my words seemed to just bounce off of them.

The Christian denominations like the Lutherans, Baptists, Adventists, the Pentecostal movements were all started by some great scholars of the time, and God used them to break away from the corrupt mainstream Catholic faith which was left over from the church that Paul established in Rome.

But you know what happened, Pianoman? What these brave souls started (breaking away from the main church) no one really picked up the yoke to further the walk. People became content with what, let’s say, Luther established. Instead of praying to the Holy Spirit to refine their work that these brave men started, they just built their churches on them. They defined who they were; ‘Lutheran’, and with the contentment to be called such, they strayed from the path that Christ laid down.

1 Cor 1:12-13
12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? NKJV

Now to answer your letter you said; “you know that God will allow and even cause men to have delusions about the scriptures, 'that they would believe a lie'. Scholars are book smart but when it comes to the bible I have to say that knowledge of God's word and plans are only given to those that are humble and willing to receive them… I read some of your other postings and I will have to say that I am not convinced that what you write is accurate.”

So you feel deep in your soul that what I write is NOT accurate. You really believe that God has lead me (because of my pride and unwillingness to receive the truth) to believe a lie.

To prove this, you pointed out the things I wrote about the Apostles; “One small example is regarding Apostles. Paul only saw Jesus in a vision and we don't know if others have also seen Him in a vision.”

No, they did not, but they did ‘hear’ something.
Acts 9:7 “And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.”
NKJV

I said that it was Jesus who picked Paul to be an Apostle, not the Disciples; Gal 1:1
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), NKJV

This is what is written in the Bible, and whether or not Jesus did this in a ‘physical’ body or appeared in a light where only His voice was heard, does not matter. (No one was there to witness creation, but lo, here we are.) So, just like you, I too must believe what the Bible says.

So, it comes down to which one of us is interpreting the Bible the right way. And how are we to know this? It is by “what we are mindful of”.

It seems to me that you would have me be quiet, to be submissive by making me doubt. By revealing what the Lord revealed to me, it threatens your way of thinking. I too have been there, so please hear me out.

In your letter, you who seem to doubt that Paul was a real Apostle (as did many in his time and even now);
1 Cor 9:1-2
Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. NKJV

This is the same doubt that you express towards me and what I say. You have been taught to believe only the things your church tells you, so when you hear things that are new to you, you automatically reject it. Dear friend, don’t end up like the Pharisees who claimed that they followed Moses, and yet they could not accept Christ’s new teaching; “Do you look at things according to the outward appearance? If anyone is convinced in himself that he is Christ's, let him again consider this in himself, that just as he is Christ's, even so we are Christ's.” 2 Cor 10:7-8 NKJV

My friends just think about this for a moment; who are the twelve Jesus was talking about, who will sit on the thrones in the New Age judging the twelve tribes of Israel?

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, "You can be sure that when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne in the New Age, then you twelve followers of mine will also sit on thrones, to rule the twelve tribes of Israel. TEV

Also in; Luke 22:30
30 You will eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and you will sit on thrones to rule over the twelve tribes of Israel. TEV

When He said this, the twelve He was talking to included Judas; Matt 26:14 “Then one of the twelve disciples — the one named Judas Iscariot — went to the chief priests” TEV

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
NKJV

So how can Judas, a fallen Apostle, one that He called a devil being one of the twelve, sit to judge a tribe of Israel? He can’t. Matt 26:24
24 The Son of Man will die as the Scriptures say he will, but how terrible for that man who will betray the Son of Man! It would have been better for that man if he had never been born!" TEV (Even though he once called Peter ‘Satan’ who later on went to deny the Lord, but Peter sorrowfully repented of those things.)

I can find only one other man that Jesus himself chose as a ‘super’ Apostle; it is Paul. If you can find anywhere where you believe my interpretation of this is wrong, please by all means show it to me. I am on a ‘path’, and people walk on the path, and not sit or sleep. I am always learning and sharing the things God reveals to me. Not just to people in my fellowship, but EVERYONE I have a chance to.

You said:
“I also want to point this very important fact out. I really believe that all of this minutiae is what cause division in people. I look at the things that Jesus did and said and if I follow that, which is a lifetime job, none of the rest matters. I have seen too many time where one man can tear apart another man's accounting or translation by putting a little twinge on a scripture. Isnt' it really more important that in our everyday lives we are following Jesus and not trying to re-write the bible or translate it so we can understand it better.”

I listened to the ‘Workers’ and what they had to say, I also listened to their preaching. You speak with that same tone of; “I look at the things that Jesus did and said and if I follow that, which is a lifetime job, none of the rest matters”

You say; ‘none of the rest matters’ but you have preachers in your church don’t you? Why? You are suggesting that I should just follow what Jesus taught in the Bible and I will be fine. So why listen to someone preach in church for week after week, year after year if you feel that it does not matter?
You revealed that answer when you said: “I have seen too many time where one man can tear apart another man's accounting or translation by putting a little twinge on a scripture.”

This is exactly what I witnessed in the 2X2 Sunday Worship Services. They literally ‘tear apart’ Christ’s message ‘by putting a little twinge on the scripture’. By this interpretation they have ‘re-written the Bible’ as you said. And sadly, this is the ‘path’ the ‘Way’ that they follow. Many other denomination do the same (every one I went to so far).

You wrote:
In Peter's letter it say that if we pray for understanding we will get it. If we don't believe that, we are limiting God's power as we do in so many other things.

Are you suggesting by this that we should not listen to anyone explain things from the Bible? That Everyone should just stay to themselves (hidden under a bushel) and don’t worry about anyone else? (The 2X2 church actually teaches that). But then, why the meetings? How do you reach the lost? How do your kids learn, unless there is someone who preaches to them? How do you explain on the day of judgment when Jesus will ask you: “Haven’t I told you to go out to all the world and preach the Good News that the Kingdom has arrived and you must repent and be baptized or else you will be cast out into eternal darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?”

Can you explain to me the following?

Matt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. KJV

Matt 13:45-46
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
KJV

Matt 13:47-48
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. KJV

Matt 13:52
52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. KJV

By your own admission, you can’t explain these things to anyone because you believe that it doesn’t matter. And people should just pray for understanding, and if they don’t get it, it is because they are limiting Gods power with their unbelief.

You said
“I look at the things that Jesus did and said and if I follow that, which is a lifetime job, none of the rest matters.”

”if we pray for understanding we will get it. If we don't believe that, we are limiting God's power”

As for me having ‘authority’ over anyone, is just a matter of opinion. But the authority that some of these churches have over their members is deceitful and devilish to say the least.

No Pianoman, you did not cause me even a moment of anguish. Matter of fact, you reassured my conviction in reaching out to everyone who will give me an ear. Maybe, Gods willing I will cause someone to turn from the darkness to seek after the light. Where there is a will, God will provide the way. May the Lord find me a worthy instrument in doing this. I pray with a humble heart that you would be one of them.

In Jesus name:
Odon

[pianoman]

I can see that in reading what I wrote, you misunderstood many things just in that. I only want to say this. I was asked to leave the 2x2's because I wouldn't accept certain teaching.
Once again, when I say we need to follow Jesus and the rest is minutiae, I mean that we can get too hung up on whether or not certain geographical things happened a certain way, and like you said, what form did Jesus encounter Paul, these things are really not important. They do not have a direct, great impact if any at all, on our salvation.
I never meant to imply you were believing a lie, because that would be judging you and I am not allowed to do that. Paul said we need to check these things to see if they be right, and that is discernment. We are told to discern a spirit. You sound like the 2x2's that I disagree with when you speak of those in darkness that you would cause to turn from it. That is a noble thought and I have to go back to the crux of what I believe. If we devote our lives to learning about Christ's life and then attempt to follow it, others will see it and they will decide if they want to have what you have, in their lives, that seems to give you the peace they are seeing. I agree that we need to learn, but we need to make sure of what we are learning and we need to discern the spirit to see if it is something from God, or not. I read and re-read the scriptures, and receive something new from it each time. I know that is because whatever God is trying to show me, He has a completely open and softened heart in which to put the seeds of knowledge, and then I have to have Him help me work that into my life in my daily walk with Him. Now don't take this the wrong way as none of what I write is directed at you unless I state that it is, in other words I don't put things in here aimed at you and make it look like it is a general statement!!! This is one of the best things we both can remember all of our lives.....

WHEN YOU ARE ARGUING WITH A FOOL, HE IS DOING THE SAME THING !

I want you to know that I truly hope that you find the things that God has placed out there, the things that Paul calls the "mistery of the gospel" (in many places) and live a fruitful life. I am 60, and have been a teacher for many years, and sometimes I have to teach what is contrary to what I believe, but have found a way to do that too, thanks to God. I know that anyone that searches with an open, honest, and willing heart, that they will be enriched. I am stengthened in my belief that people keep trying to change me, and some teach me, and others strengthen, what I know and others I just look at what they are saying and shake my head, because I can see that they are not willing to put their pride to the side and listen to someone that is making sense, and not willing to do the things that Jesus asked.
Good luck to you in your search and mission to have God in your life.......P

[ariandgabe]

Pianoman wrote;
WHEN YOU ARE ARGUING WITH A FOOL, HE IS DOING THE SAME THING !
and sometimes I have to teach what is contrary to what I believe, but have found a way to do that too, thanks to God.

Once again I thank you Pianoman for your response.
Please understand that I am not continuing this conversation with you because I see that I am achieving anything positive with you, No I don't. I see that either you have closed your eyes many years ago, or you have NEVER been able to see at all.

I don't misunderstand you my dear friend, it is you who is living a misguided Cristian life. If I can't reach you, then I pray for the benefit of others who might read this post, that they will see exactly what remaining in darkness can be like.

As I quoted you saying; "and sometimes I have to teach what is contrary to what I believe, but have found a way to do that too, thanks to God." proves that you are not walking in the light. Please don't take this the wrong way, I love you more then you now know.

My friend, I would rather 'die' than for me to find a way to teach 'contrary to what I believe' in any subject, especially if I was a teacher of our youth. But please friend, don't thank God for something you do that offends and hurts HIM.

THIS is the very reason God created us and put us on this earth and then cast Satan down here, to see if we would stick with the 'Truth' no matter even if they kill us. (Or if we would take Satans side as did one third of the angels in heaven)
Satan is a lier and the FATHER of lies. If we teach "anything' contrary to the 'truth', we are NONE of Gods, and He says that we walk in darkness.

I am so sad that Christians think that we can 'tweak' the truth in certain cases. NEVER. (Anything 'contrary' to the truth is a lie).

I just read a Christian sight where they are talking about 'truth' in Christianity, and they mention that it is O.K. to lie in instances like; (During the Nazi holocaust, Christians were hiding Jews in their homes, and when asked, they had to lie that they were NOT doing so.) How sad. They think that God needs a little help sometimes, so it's O.K. to lie. What is that called, WHITE LIES? Yes. And those belong to the 'good Witches' who practice 'White Magic'. Next, Christians will be thanking 'God' for 'Hellboy' who comes to earth to save us. This is the same reason Christians pray to Mary 'the Mother of God'. Because hey, what can a little baby do for us anyways, right? She is the 'MOTHER' (the source) of God, right?
NO.

God is in complete control my friend, this is why you remain in darkness, you not only believe in lies, but humbly promote contrary to Christian beliefs in our schools. And then, you thank God for it.

My dear friend, I pray that God will open your eyes, and with all the love that God was able to force into me, I will leave you with this quote (I am not judging you, the Bible teaches us that if we reject the truth, we have been judged already. Here is why):

Jesus was upset because the people would not believe Him, but they eagerly followed lies. He said:

John 8:44-47
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.
When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."
NKJV

[Deleted]

If by any chance you (or Elders, Workers, Prophets) can find me even ONE place where the Bible apposes the gathering of the believers in a building or synagogue, or cathedral or stadium, by the riverside, on farms, fields, barns, anywhere other then houses, please show me

Worship did not take place in synagogues after the crucifixion. These were seen as opportunities to preach to respectful Jews.

And soon as they did, Christians were banned from them.

We hold that the New Covenant STRESSES the importance of the spiritual building, and sees the physical building as something belonging to the Old Covenant, and nothing more than another form of idolatry.

[ariandgabe]

We hold that the New Covenant STRESSES the importance of the spiritual building, and sees the physical building as something belonging to the Old Covenant, and nothing more than another form of idolatry.

Are you saying that God will not be present at a church service if it is held anywhere other then in a home? (and by a couple of 2X2 women ministers?)

"where two or three are gathered in MY name, ..."

"THERE I AM in the midst of you."

[pianoman]

Ignorance abounds. Ariandgabe, did you cut the verse out of your bible, or scratch out some words, where it says, "Judge not lest ye be judged"

Thank you for putting me in my place, judging me, and letting me know that I am not walking in the light. I guess that I can only hope to be as wise and well informed as you are some day, but I feel I would need to live another 100 years and have acute attacks of delusions of grandeur about myself, but I will try and get by.

Another saying I remember is to keep quiet and be assumed a fool or open your mouth (or fingers) and remove all doubt.

I am sorry I ever responded to you or gave you a second thought, but I thought you might be in a position to examine things, which I see is impossible with your extremely high IQ, and personal profession that you are, indeed, speaking for God and cannot possibly be wrong.

Thus endeth the lesson for life, and I will not respond to you again. I know enough folks like you that I am avoiding now. Good luck, and next time God speaks to you, have him send you a fax which you can post on here and cut out the middle man! (unless you need the strokes)
Pianoman, over and out

[ariandgabe]

Pianoman wrote:
1. Ignorance abounds. Ariandgabe
2. need to live another 100 years and have acute attacks of delusions of grandeur about myself
3. keep quiet and be assumed a fool or open your mouth (or fingers) and remove all doubt.
4. did you cut the verse out of your bible, or scratch out some words, where it says, "Judge not lest ye be judged"?

How long have you been a Christian Pianoman? I know you are in your 60’s so it had to be a while. As with your other letters, you continuously ‘judge’ me while saying; ‘judge not …’ I do examine things, that is the very reason you are saying you will ‘not respond to me anymore’. I am praying for you my friend, I just shined a little light on you, (candle light) and obviously you don’t like it. What if I shone the ‘floodlight’ God has given me?

If you truly believe that I am wrong in my interpretation of the Bible, shed some light on it so I can once again see. How long will you (and the rest of so-called Christianity) remain ‘babes in Christ’? “When I was a child …” Even as a Christian adult, I only know the things that my physical mind can understand;

1 Cor 13:12
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
NKJV

Many fall in this category because of the ‘word’, they immediately stumble:
Matt 13:20-22
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
NKJV

When Noah was building the ark, do you think he said anything to the people around him? According to you and your church, he would have remained in silence and just went about his work. I mean, he had a lot to do, as busy as he was, why would he stop and talk to them, right? ‘Don’t worry about the others, worry about yourself, Noah’, you would tell him. Same with Lot, according to you, he would have kept himself hidden in his house and not worry about the rest; “Judge not and you shall not be judged”, right?

No.
Noah spoke to the people and WARNED them that unless they repent from their evil and crooked ways, they will ALL DIE.

‘All die you say’ the people would have responded, ‘you mean that this God of yours will kill even these innocent little children of ours? You and your God are cruel even to say that. Just look at this cute little innocent faces, how could you say such evil and mean things that this God of yours would kill them?’

Yep, Noah, Lot, and all the Apostles are ‘cruel and judgmental’ according to you. How could they preach ‘burning in hell for an eternity’ without being judgmental? And hey, who wants’ to listen to people like that anyways, right?

John 1:5
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
NKJV

Luke 11:35-36
35 Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.
NKJV

John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
NKJV

Eph 5:13-14
13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. 14 Therefore He says:

"Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light."
NKJV

[Happy Feet]

ariandgabe is dogmatic and controlling, who says his way is right or the highway. He takes the place of God, judges, condemns those who do not agree 100% with him.

If I was to determine a man of God the Pianoman gets full marks. It is impossible to dialogue with ariangabe. He believes he is right and everyone else wrong. He believes he has the full revelation and everyone else is wrong i.e. all Christianity is wrong except him as he states. He is not difference from the 2x2s he condemns. He is threatened by anyone who gives another point of view. He somehow rests his salvation on doctrine rather than the Holy Spirit dwelling within.

Thank you Pianoman for your Godly attitude in answering this domineering individual.

Heaven will be a lonely place for you ariandgabe as it seems you will be the only one there. You are not teachable or open to any teaching. You claim to have all the answers. Your condescending tone says a lot about you.

[pianoman]

Believer, thank you as I have no more time to waste on our self appointed savior. Please don't get caught up in a verbal battle with this person. There are so many more other things that are serious and can be discussed without having a resident expert to try to "show the light" You said it all. Pianoman

[jdouglas]

A very good read for me. Thanks Ariandgabe. God bless, Jen

[ariandgabe]

Thank you jdouglas, and God bless you too. Hey, you scared me. I have been corresponding with 'jdouglas' for a few months, she was a 'Worker' named June. She just died a few weeks ago, and that was her e-mail address; 'jdouglas@ ..."

After her second visit in our home, she realized that I was not just blabbing my mouth when it came to the interpretation of the Bible, and she looked very worried, especially when she realized that her lifelong work was not what she thought to be (one of the 12 and 70 sent by Jesus) and that all those years of service was not for the Kingdom, but for the church. We talked about 'Mother Teresa' and when I showed her that all the wonderful work Teresa did was not for God either, but for her Church and her 'father' on earth, the Pope, June just sat there in silence for awhile and then said: "I guess you are right, she won't get any reward for that, ..." A week and a half later June died at the age of 88. 66 of those years were for serving her church. Oh how I wish she could have stayed a little longer, I just know that she understood what I was saying and showing her.
Matt 24:42
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.
NKJV

Matt 25:11-13
11 "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' 12 But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
NKJV

I pray for the ‘Way and the 2X2’s’ especially those Workers:

Luke 12:47
47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
NKJV

She too was upset at me at times, (just like 'Pianoman' and 'Believer' here) but when we talked, she knew that I was talking in the Spirit of Truth because when I answered her questions, it was always from the scriptures. She also admitted that I had a willing and an open heart. Her partner Joyce is a witness to that.
Mark 13:11
But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

Please my friends, if there is more important thing then revealing the 'light' in us to a darkened world, then please tell me what it is. I just watched the Olympics, and for the first time in my life, (and I believe the history of US Olympics) I did not hear any of our athletes thank God or their Savior Jesus Christ for anything. Not one word with 'God' in it, no matter how incredible the win was. Not that God cares about the Olympics, but it just reveals to us just how DARK this country and world has become.
And why not, just look at the responses of those that call themselves Christians and 'believers'. But I understand, I too walked in the same kind of darkness for many years, and that is why I pray to God to open these eyes that we may all see:

Matt 6:23
23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
NKJV

I love you Pianoman and Believer, I would love to talk to you both in person so that you could show me my errors and open my eyes. You know my e-mail address, why can’t we set it up? And after meeting me and my family, you still think I’m self-righteous, then I’ll post it on every site myself.
It does take time to change our old ways, but with God, nothing is impossible. But you must have a will and a desire to change. Once you meet me (as June did) you would not judge me so wrongly. Time is short and eternity too long to wait any longer.

[shushy]

We should not promote our own ministry. The Lord makes room for us.

[jdouglas]

Ariandgabe, in post #9, I keep thinking about what you wrote concerning the people protecting the innocent from the Nazis by telling a lie. I wonder if that was wrong. Look at Rahab and the spies in Joshua 2, saving innocent life from killers by telling a lie, and she is mentioned as a faithful one in Hebrews 11. Also, I don't know how we can (or why we should try to) judge the heart of Mother Teresa. Can you expand on those two things, please. Thanks, Jen

[pianoman]

Arindgabe, Even though I vowed not to respond, this will be the last as I don'nnt want your question about why we can't communicate in emails, so that I can tell you how and why you are wrong.

to quote Believer "ariandgabe is dogmatic and controlling, who says his way is right or the highway. He takes the place of God, judges, condemns those who do not agree 100% with him. "
If you take a chill pill and read everything that I wrote, I never once judged you or told you that you were wrong, if you don't print it out of context like you have. You have made it look like I am judging you and I never did. I simply told you that I steer clear of those that "seem to have all the answers"
NO MAN HAS ALL THE ANSWERS, PERIOD!!

I did point out some things from the scriptures simply to think about, but I can see quite clearly that you can't even read a statement and absorb it into your mind without putting your twist on it and that my friend is a judgement (by me) backed up by the above writings. I have no desire to try and communicate with someone, that in my limited experience with them, is incapible of communication, again a judgement (by me) from the writings here. Please let me stumble along blindly and you go forth and teach the masses as I am sure they are pounding a path to your door.
With your strength, knowledge and special appointment as "HAS THE ONLY RIGHT ANSWERS", which is so IRONIC since you came on here to blast the 2x2's for doing the same thing, but I am sure that is not how this will read to you. Have you sought professional help? Anything will help! Now this is all that I will respond to you. Period!

[ariandgabe]

Ariandgabe, in post #9, I keep thinking about what you wrote concerning the people protecting the innocent from the Nazis by telling a lie. I wonder if that was wrong. Look at Rahab and the spies in Joshua 2, saving innocent life from killers by telling a lie, and she is mentioned as a faithful one in Hebrews 11. Also, I don't know how we can (or why we should try to) judge the heart of Mother Teresa. Can you expand on those two things, please. Thanks, Jen

Dear Jen.
I used to think that certain ‘sins’ were O.K. to do if it was to further the Word of God. I grew up in a cult-like sect as the 2X2’s, ours was called the ‘Apostolic Christian Church of the Nazarenes’. We were not allowed to have TV’s, radios, or go to movies, dancing or do any other activities that were considered ‘worldly’ by Biblical standards, but even greater emphasis was given to the things that were considered worldly by the ‘Apostolic Churches’ standards and lying was NOT one of them.
It was only after I was excommunicated from my church did I go out to see if I can find ‘God’, because I knew He’s Holy Spirit was NOT with the church I grew up in. This is when I realized (God opened my eyes) to those questions like you just gave me about Mother Teresa, and Rahab. (Here again we see how God works in our lives; I had to be ex-communicated in order for God to open my eyes.)

You see my dear friends, I was never allowed to question my church leaders (I was told), because who was I to question Elders and Ministers of ‘Gods Chosen’? How would I dare to even ‘think’ of such things as to go up to the only ones going to heaven? And you know what, this is the very reason Christians of all denominations accept Mother Teresa as someone ‘holy’ and beyond scrutiny. Instead of shining Gods Word to reveal who she really is, people just accept what the ‘Church and the Pope’ tells them.

John 12:40
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them." NKJV

2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. NKJV

This was with me also, as long as I remained in my ignorance, wallowing in my confusion; I was considered a ‘good and loyal’ member. It was when I started to question that I was labeled a heretic. It is when I inquired other ministers regarding ‘Elders’ who were so-holy in church, yet they were pathetic liars outside of it, is when I was told that; ‘sometimes we have to BEND the truth. It is written to be wise as serpents but gentle as doves.” So hey, it sounded pretty good to me, so I too lived a double life. But when I listened to unbelievers who were pointing out my hypocrisies, I asked God to open my eyes and when He did, I did not like what I seen in myself. This made me seek the truth the more.

So with this thought, let’s start with Mother Teresa. You said: “I don't know how we can (or why we should try to) judge the heart of Mother Teresa”.

First of all, look at; Rom 4:1-4
“What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.” NKJV

I don’t know how much you know of the Catholic Church, but there, IT IS by works that people can get into heaven. If your works were not good and you died, your family can ‘buy’ your way out of purgatory by paying the priest money (penance) so he can pray to Mother Mary, who in turn asks her baby son Jesus to free the damned soul who has done more ‘bad’ then ‘good’ in his life. So the verse; “ For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.” Applies to Teresa, because as I said before, her ‘works’ were accounted as ‘debt paid’; “4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.”

Read also; Titus 3:4-7 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.” (And many other places in the Bible regarding ‘grace, mercy, debt paid, sacrifice etc.)

So what about the ‘heart’ of Mother Teresa? First of all, I am not a judge of souls, neither was Christ when He was here, it is “Gods Word’ that judges mankind and the Word says;
John 12:48-49
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him — the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

So we are free (and not only that, but it is also our duty) to use the Word of God to shine light on everything to expose it.
John 3:20-21
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (This is why my friend Pianoman and others are angry.)

Mother Teresa was a devout Catholic who put her service to her ‘church’ above all things. She referred to the Pope, (a man) as the; ‘Holy Father’.
Matt 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

She bowed down and prayed to idols all her life, and she taught and encouraged others to do the same.
1 Cor 12:2
2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
NKJV

1 Thess 1:9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
NKJV

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.
NKJV

Rev 9:20
20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

She had her favorite ‘Saints’ that she prayed to for certain needs she had and again, taught and encouraged others to do the same.

Many years of her life Mother Teresa was deeply troubled and lived in confusion. She was quoted as saying things like; “I don’t know if I’m serving God or Satan? I have dreams that God is NOT with me.” She used to go into panic with delusions as one possessed by demons.
In response to this, the Church performed exorcisms on her many times (At least 3 times). To add to her suffering, she was told that it was because she was so ‘close to God’ that the demons entered her. They miss-use scripture like Matt 16:23 to justify that even Peter had a demon in him;
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." NKJV
And it works on those that remain in darkness. If we read the text with our Spiritual mind, we understand that it was Peters ‘boasting’ that allowed Satan to enter him, NOT because he was doing ‘good’ all the time as they claim Mother Teresa was. It was ‘pride’ and being ‘mindful of things of men’ that opens the door for the Devil, not ‘good deeds’. This is why we are encouraged and instructed to; “pray without ceasing,” 1 Thess 5:17

Teresa prayed, she had her prayer beads and repeated her prayers, but in Matt 6:7 it says; “And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.” kneeling before the statue of Mother Mary and asking her to intercede, but here again; “1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,” but as you can see, her actions contradicted the Word of God.

So can we justify all those things Mother Teresa did and taught millions of people to do that contradicted and opposed the many warnings in the Bible just because she helped and fed the poorest of the poor?
John 6:49
49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. …
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever." NKJV

No. We are not going to be rewarded for doing good if it is to further our own religious beliefs and sect, and that is exactly what the Catholic Church did in using Mother Teresa. She has done more damage and has taken more souls into bondage of the ‘Church’ then any other person in its history. God has called the poor soul many times, but she refused the call of the Spirit in exchange of a more worldly reward, ‘fame’ in the form of ‘Sainthood’. I know, you will say that she was the most humble person on earth, she only wanted to help. If it was so, then Jesus would have taken her out a long time ago.

You see, as I pointed it out, her master was of this earth. It was the Pope that she called out to as ‘Holy father’. He was her ‘shepherd’ and she heeded ‘his’ voice. But when she was in trouble and in torment, the false shepherd left her to the wolf;
John 10:12-13
12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

Instead of trusting in Jesus who said:
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
And also;
Matt 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
KJV

This is by no way to say that she was not rewarded for her good deeds, the whole world got to know her and what she did, but it was not a lasting reward.
Matt 6:2
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet (as the Catholic Church did for her) before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. NKJV

As Christians, God sees our ‘faith’ by the works we do and not the other way around. We can’t work our way into the Kingdom.

TEV
Titus 3:8
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

James 2:20-26
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

This is NOT to say; “I will keep on doing good, and maybe I’ll get into heaven?” Instead it is because I believe in God and His Son who died for me, and to show that I believe and that I am saved through repentance I do good works. Not only will I do good works, but I will not do wicked things like worship and pray to idols, I will not put a man like the Pope above God whose Words are eternal and can never be changed. I will never pray to a dead woman Mary or elevate a statue and call it the ‘Mother of God”. I will not teach that the body of Christ is a piece of bread that we must eat to stay alive in our faith. I will never accept a man to have authority (like the Pope) to add or take away from the Scriptures and will never teach others to do the same. I will never let my dead body be elevated to be worshipped by others, but teach that those who are true believers are the ‘Saints’ before our God in heaven. These are the things I will and will not do, as commended and instructed to us all believers in the Holy Bible, and cannot be changed by a church or a man.

Lies - (not big ones, just the little ones):

Now as for ‘twisting the truth’ to help out God a little is the trick of the Devil.
John 8:44
“44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it” (You noticed that the above verse does not say; ‘he is the father of ‘Big’ lies, nor can we find anywhere in the scriptures where lies are separated into levels where some enter heaven and the rest remain in hell.)

He is the first one who twisted the Words of God with Eve when he said: Gen 3:1
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" when he knew very well that God said: Gen 3:2-3
"We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'" NKJV

Today he uses those small ‘twisting of the truths’ and has convinced many Christians to do the same. Let us see why Rahab was rewarded, was it because she lied?
Heb 11:31
31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
NKJV

Rahab was justified because of her faith in the living God of the children of Israel over the gods in her own country, NOT because she lied. She believed that the God of these spies is the One and True God and she acted upon it. God has ignored her lie because of her ignorance of the ‘law’;
Rom 3:25
In the past God was patient and overlooked people's sins; but in the present time he deals with their sins, in order to demonstrate his righteousness. In this way God shows that he himself is righteous and that he puts right everyone who believes in Jesus.
Acts 17:30
30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
NKJV

How about Esau and Jacob? Did God ask Jacob to lie to his father?

Gen 25:29-34
Now Jacob cooked a stew; and Esau came in from the field, and he was weary. 30 And Esau said to Jacob, "Please feed me with that same red stew, for I am weary." Therefore his name was called Edom.
31 But Jacob said, "Sell me your birthright as of this day."
32 And Esau said, "Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?"
33 Then Jacob said, "Swear to me as of this day."
So he swore to him, and sold his birthright to Jacob. 34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and stew of lentils; then he ate and drank, arose, and went his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.
NKJV

God has already told his mother that; “The older shall serve the younger.” Gen 25:23 not that she should lie. Esau did not value his birthright and before the Lord, with an oath sold it to his brother for a bowl of stew. If Rebekah would have had a little more faith in the promise of God, she would have never lied and make Jacob lie too.

The same thing happened to Sarah, Abrahams wife; she did not believe the angel of the Lord that she will have a son, so she gave her maidservant to Abraham to have the son God promised him. As you know, she was way, way past the age of getting pregnant, so she didn’t want Abraham to look foolish because of Gods outdated promise. But we also know who was the one who ended up looking foolish and her super idea with the hand-maiden turned out to be the thorn in her side and not only hers, but her children’s children also. To this very day, the conflict and hate between the children of Ishmael and Isaac (Israel) lives on.

The same with the Children of Israel when they left Egypt, up to the time they entered the promised land they kept on doubting Gods ability to free them even after all the wonders God has done up to the point. When they have entered the Promised Land, they complained; ‘surely God did not realize that there are mighty giants in the land, or He would have never lead us into this forsaken place.’ And once again came the thoughts of unbelief; ‘It would have been better for us to stay in Egypt then to die by the hands of these giants.’

Oh dear Christians, when are we ever going to learn? (I still struggle with doubts, and I’m sure Noah had them until he finished the Ark and the rain started to come down.)
These are the same doubts in Gods ability that come to us also; ‘maybe if I just lie a little bit, it will save these poor Jews from certain death. I mean they are Gods chosen people and I’m sure God wouldn’t want harm to come to them?’

We forget who it was that allowed such horror to come upon the Jews in the first place. It was by their own mouth that God judged them by; “25 And all the people answered and said, "His blood be on us and on our children." Matt 27:25 NKJV

God does not, nor has He ever needed Satan’s little ‘white lies’ to ‘help Him out’. We are to help those in need especially those that asks us for help, but NEVER does God ask us to lie, even if it’s a little lie that could seemingly help the lives of hundreds, even thousands of people. Satan was the ‘father of all lies’, including the little ones.
When it seems that with just a small lie we could divert all kinds of problems, we are not looking at the big picture. Lot could have said to the men in the city of Sodom that; ‘the two men you are looking for have left through the back door, if you hurry, you will be able to catch them.’ But he didn’t. Instead he put his faith in to the hands of God, and he and his family were delivered untouched because of it.

Abraham could have told his son Isaac to run, and later tell God that he could not catch the young lad, so he could not sacrifice him for God. But then, Abraham would not have been the ‘father of our faith’ would he?

Trying to come up with ways to twist the truth a little to avoid big problems has caused nothing but bigger problems for Christianity, and the Devil is laughing at us. Look at this story;

Gen 26:6-10
6 So Isaac dwelt in Gerar. 7 And the men of the place asked about his wife. And he said, "She is my sister"; for he was afraid to say, "She is my wife," because he thought, "lest the men of the place kill me for Rebekah, because she is beautiful to behold." 8 Now it came to pass, when he had been there a long time, that Abimelech king of the Philistines looked through a window, and saw, and there was Isaac, showing endearment to Rebekah his wife. 9 Then Abimelech called Isaac and said, "Quite obviously she is your wife; so how could you say, 'She is my sister'?"
Isaac said to him, "Because I said, 'Lest I die on account of her.'"
10 And Abimelech said, "What is this you have done to us? One of the people might soon have lain with your wife, and you would have brought guilt on us." (Abraham did the same thing before this too) NKJV

Isaac, a man of God and yet it was a Philistine named Abimelech that straightened him out. How shameful it must have been for Isaac not to have trusted in his God that the foreigner has shown fear of.

Will the unbelievers show more faith in our God then us Christians? Back when I was going to my church, many times I heard unbelievers tell me; “Hey, you lied, I thought you were a Christian. Christians are not supposed to lie!”

So what will we answer back; “Well, it was just a little lie, I mean look at all the problems telling the truth would have caused. It is better this way; God would have wanted it thus.”

And the answer back from (what we consider) the ‘un-believer’ would be; “Yeah right, a typical Christian and his two-faced god.”
Rom 2:24
24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.
NKJV

No, my dear friends, we must always tell the truth no matter how grave the situation or how many lives we ‘think’ telling a lie might save. We must put our ‘faith’ in GOD at all times. Let Him figure out a way to save the Jews. (Oh yea, He did. A few months after punishing them, after the war He gave them back their own country that they were chased out of for almost two thousand years.)
God created every molecule in the universe, He has our hair numbered, and He takes care of our next breath, even our next heartbeat. Are we going to put an alarm clock next to us to make sure we take the next breath, you know, incase God forgets to do it for us? I mean hey, there are six billion of us, what if he forgets me for a second, and oops - heart stopped - I’m dead, no, not a chance. Have you seen the movie; “China Cry” yet? My dad was put before a firing squad like that because of his faith against bearing arms. He died sixty years later and NOT from the bullets either, but from old age in his sleep.

Rev 21:27
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. NKJV

I pray this helps, my dear friend Jen.

[jdouglas]

Wow, Ari, that is a lot of words! I appreciate your reply and it gives me something to think about. I heard something about Sis Teresa lately, that she said: she never heard God speaking to her----the first time I ever heard anything like that about her. But I understand what you're saying about the RCC, and if she was doing it for the Pope and not the Lord that wouldn't be good. Thanks for your explanations. It will take awhile for me to digest all you wrote. Maybe I will write more later. Glad you told your story. Sounds like you went through similar trauma because of lies, as we did in the 2x2's. God bless, Jen

[ddowdy]

Pianoman is clearly a Kool-Aid swiller of the first degree. Please don't let any of the criticisms detract from Odon/Ari's words. This man is someone I am very proud to call a friend he doesn't nor, has he ever claimed to have ALL the answers. However it is abundantly clear that he has devoted significant time, thought and deep study to the bible and the matters discussed herein. I also know as a fact that he approached this cult with an open mind (I made the mistake of castigating him at the time because I believed him sympathetic of a group deserving no sympathies). It was only after collecting all of the facts and reviewing all of the evidence that he came to his conclusions and I have the utmost respect for them and for anything this man has to say. Keep on educating and illuminating Odon, you are surely a treasure.

[sharon]

QUOTE FROM ARIANDGABE: "where two or three are gathered in MY name, ..."

"THERE I AM in the midst of you." UNQUOTE

There's a problem with this inference here! One needs to go back to that scripture and read the entire subject or even the whole chapter. The subject that Jesus was teaching was "witnessing" with 2-3 witnesses when brother had transgressed against another brother! I know that churches have all taken these words out of context! And have lost Jesus' intent of lesson! Jesus intent was that those "witnessing" against another would have the mind of Christ. He went on to tell His disciples right after the above mentioned scripture to forgive someone 70 X 7.....Think of it like this, if one professes to be Christian then enters into "witnessing" against someone and then has to "take part" against someone, would they not soon find themselves less then Christian? Was it not Jesus Christ who came to save the world and not condemn it? Isn't that His own words? How dare any of us seek to hold a wrong against another....how dare any of us accuse another man's servant? Jesus died for all of us, every last one of us! So if we feel obliged to take "witnesses" with us against a brother, then we should pray we all go into that gathering "in the name of Jesus" and that "Jesus" is with us. If we do that, then it'll turn out just like it did when the accusers took the adulterous woman to Jesus in the midst of those in the temple. Time immemorial has been spent worrying and fretting about what Jesus wrote on the ground. But many have lost the lesson obtained in that picture. Jesus wrote on the ground to give the accusers time to reflect on themselves, how did they stand before Jesus? Then Jesus finally told them that whosoever was without sin could cast the first stone. Then later Jesus told the women that He himself didn't accuse her, but for her to go and sin no more! The "accuser of the brethren" fought that war in heaven and the archangel and the host of angels threw him and his angels out of heaven for all time! And that was when Jesus was on the cross, through Jesus blood the "accuser" of the brethren was to be no longer in heaven.....so should we not be on earth, for as Jesus "warned" His disciple whatsoever they retained on earth, was retained in heaven and whatsoever was released on earth was released in heaven. Otherwords, don't let old human nature make you want to hold a grudge against your brother, even though he's wronged you. Also when you start involving more witnesses, the more the hard feelings against the one who's done wrong. Making it so much harder for him to achieve the "feeling of forgiveness and love" should he repent!

[pianoman]

Ddowdy, I am glad to know you are friends with ariandgabe. I would hate to think there would be more than one that could so completely misunderstand a person. I suggest that you and "ari" start your own thing and if anybody even says anything that you think might be a criticism, you will be sure that they can be banned immediatly. If you read all that is written, I was pointing out certain things and only when I stated that I was judging, and if you have any education and desire to learn rather than jump on a bandwagon with four flat tires, you will see that the judgements are backed by what is written. I did not attack "ari" but he is so defensive that he took it as that. I guess that he is maybe on the defensive all of the time. I am certainly not going to start up with you, as I don't know you and don't judge folks, unless all the signs point to a conclusion, which in the above mentioned case did, you are welcome to show your deep commitment to Christ and as a follower, do as he did and I will be your Kool-aid swiller. By the way, what bible and scripture refers to "Kool-aid swiller"?

[ddowdy]

Out of Touch...Out of Tune! After finally making some semblance of sense out of your most recent post in this thread I am replying against my better judgment. I am glad to consider Odon/Ari a friend. In fact, I am honored to do so. Even more, he is my brother in Christ and I value him greatly. Apparently you are enmeshed within the darkness and bondage of the 2x2 cult. I assume that in order to fashion an explanation with respect to the befuddlement and confusion that your post reflects.

Certainly neither my friends or myself have ever indicated that we are starting some sort of religon nor do I believe any of us have the intent to do so. It is a matter of clear fact that the beliefs my friends and I espouse and testify to have already been started...long ago by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The tenets established by Jesus are the guidelines we strive so imperfectly to follow.

In psychology there is a type of behavior that is labeled projection. I will not attempt an explication of what is a rather complicated subject here but suffice it to say that your accusations regarding Odon/Ari and myself seem to be excellent examples of the projection phenomenon. It seems that it is you who is consistently on the defensive. True, you often employ offensive tactics but the abundantly simple fact is that just because you might be offensive it doesn't mean that you are on the offensive.

Am I on the offensive with respect to this cult? Is Odon/Ari? And, if we are, isn't that in and of itself offensive? I mean shouldn't we just live and let live? Yes, I am on the offensive and while I won't speak for my friend, I believe he is as well. Our words and our actions may very well offend some. They may hurt others. For that I do apologize. However we may cause some to think and rethink. To use logic. To study. To pray. It is my great hope and I believe Odon/Ari's also that some of these individuals may eventually discover the truth about this cult. It is my prayer that God might provide them (and yourself) the strength to cast off the shackles of ignorance, deception and manipulation with which the cult has restrained them, so they might be free to know and embrace their saviour and develop the kind of deep personal relationship with Him that His sacrifice intended.

Because of my beliefs I feel compelled to try and reach people struggling with the bonds of this cult. To say or think that my motivation or Odon/Ari's stems from anything other than genuine love and concern is false and it is wrong. I have researched and investigated this cult for many years and for me not to freely share the fruits of that labor would in my view be sinful. I know that Odon/Ari could never permit his heart to be so hardened and his soul so calloused that he would permit himself to sit idly by while even one of God's children had their opportunity to fully know and love the heavenly Father who so dearly loves and cherishes them threatened by entanglement within this cult.

So in closing Mr. pianoman the intention of my post and I am certain Odon/Ari's as well was not to attack, befuddle or confuse you. It was not to damage, expose or frighten you. I did not intend to belittle, berate or aggravate you. I singled you out and perhaps you feel that I criticized you...if that is the case...if your feelings are hurt and you believe me responsible for in some manner having done you injury with my words...I do apologize to you with all my heart and I most fervently hope that my intentions and motivations however imperfectly expressed have become more clear by virtue of this post. With that I wish you all the best and know that I shall remember you in prayer.

[ariandgabe]

Sharon
Re; 'where two or three are gathered...'

Yes, you are right sister, but only up to a point. We are NOT to ‘plan’ a stoning as you say, but make way for forgiveness. I see what you mean, that as we go to gather witnesses against a brother, is the same like the time that Jesus is writing on the ground. This is the time we should use to reflect on our own sins before throwing the stones, right?

I am sorry if I gave the impression that I am holding a grudge and am calling fellow Believers to a stoning. I hold no grudge against anyone, but I do retain a mental picture of those that misrepresent the Word and respond to them in a stern way knowing how dangerous the twisting of Scripture can be to others seeking after the truth.

I, myself have gone through hell trying to block out the perversion of scriptures I have been taught all those years by my old church.

As for my quote; ‘Where two or three are gathered …’ was an anxious response without even a second thought to what the writer was saying, and THAT was wrong;

[font=Verdana]“We hold that the New Covenant STRESSES the importance of the spiritual building, and sees the physical building as something belonging to the Old Covenant, and nothing more than another form of idolatry.”[/font]

Is a true statement and my response seemed as if ‘stoning’ and I am sorry for that. Thanks for the admonishment; it humbles me when I see myself this way, doing and saying things from Odon instead of letting Christ Holy Spirit talk through me. May God forgive and grant me more faith in Him.

(My reaction was against the 2X2’s doctrine to worship only in a home instead of a building. It should not matter to us, neither does it matter to God if we got together for worship in an old abandoned Buddhist Temple, as long as we don’t consider the ‘building’ as a “place of worship”. If we rent a Baptist Church with a cross on top because it is a convenient place for our entire congregation to gather in, so be it, as long as we do not pick the building ‘because’ it had the cross on it.)

You are so right Sharon, we Christians loose the sight of what Jesus was teaching and because of ignorance we start flinging the Words of Christ as stones against our fellow believers. So true that we must be careful that we are not gathering witnesses for a stoning, but our intention must remain focused on ‘saving a brother from a multitude of sins’, but the fact that Jesus wants us to rebuke an erring Believer does not change;

1 Tim 5:19-20
20 Rebuke publicly all those who commit sins, so that the rest may be afraid.
TEV

Dear Sharon, I hope you are not insinuating that we ‘let’ the prostitute remain as an unrepented ‘sinner’ amongst us are you? I mean I understand what you are saying in the story that when the mob caught the woman in adultery, they did not bring her before Christ with the intention of ‘forgiving’ her, but to ‘stone’ her. We, on the other hand are to lovingly approach the erring brother/sister and tell him/her of their errors and plead for their repentance, but; “17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matt 18:17”
Right?

In my posts regarding the doctrine of the 2X2’s, I am NOT gathering a mob to stone them, I believe I have done exactly as the Lord taught us; I went and talked to the Workers over and over again pointing my case from scripture in it’s proper context, but they ‘refused to hear me’. Then I went and talked to the members who would listen and they too turned a blind eye and my plea fell on deaf ears, so I turned to my present church of ‘believers’, you wonderful people on this Post, and revealed what I saw and heard of this group. I pray that this is not ‘stoning’ but a loving revelation of the truth. I have NEVER closed the door on them, and have given them every opportunity and have called on them to prove their case and show me if I am in error, but they have refused it. The things they say to me is based on ‘feelings’ and NOT scripture: “You are judgmental, think you are always right, you are making your own ‘ministry’” and so on.

I am truly looking for a group (even a few like Mr. Dowdy and others who I believe understands where I come from and what I seek) believers that have not severed themselves from the ‘Head’ which is Christ. I cannot just accept a church because THEY think they are the true way, I must believe it myself and the only way I can do that is compare their services, their doctrine to Gods Word. I cannot just sit down, tell my wife to put her hair up, and no matter how erroneous their interpretation of the scripture, just sit there in total submission.

Dear Sharon, the phrase;

Matt 18:20
20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them." NKJV

Is NOT only for approaching a brother who has sinned, but it is to remind us that where two or three are gathered in His name, He will be right there with us to help us fulfill His glorious purpose.

The simple commandments Jesus left us with are NOT stones as this shameful example of Christianity would like everyone to believe. Read the following and tell me in truth if these words are ‘STONES’ Jesus is relating to us, or ‘WARNINGS’?

2 Tim 3:1-9
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.
NKJV

Try and tell this to your minister or anyone in your church, using it in proper context and you will see that they will interpret it to mean ‘stones’ and you will be labeled a hypocrite who should hide and ‘remove the beam’ from your eyes before quoting scripture of this nature. ‘Bad girl, how dare you’!!!!

Sharon, can you quote me even one place in all my posts where I ‘judge’ any group to a punishment? Have I ever said that anyone should be stoned, killed, whipped, or should pay a fine, or that I cast them to hell? You see, THAT would be judgment which we are NOT to do.

But to; [i]“20 Rebuke publicly all those who commit sins, so that the rest may be afraid.
1 Tim 5:20” [/i]is a commandment we must never abandon because we know that “a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”.

1 John 5:16
“16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.”

And which sin is it that leads to ‘death’? ANY sin that we refuse to repent from;

“18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.” NKJV

The problem of Christianity today is NOT that we have a lot of ‘stoning’, but quite the opposite; we let sin dwell within the Church for so long that the whole church dies and severs itself from the head which is Christ.

Just like Achan who after fighting the Babylonians kept some of the treasures and hid them under his tent, we as Christians let this same thing happen too often and under the pretence of not trying to be judgmental, we let the ‘sin’ remain in the brother and the whole congregation suffers for it.

Matt 18:15
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. NKJV

What’s happening today, is that when we see a brother or sister sin, we talk about her (gossip) but no one dares to or more realistically, ‘cares to’ tell it to her, rather it remains as a cancer eating her up and the whole church with it.
Instead what we should do with sin is to; “laid them out before the LORD” (Josh 7:23)
and raise over them a ‘heap of stones’ so ‘the Lord may turn from the fierceness of His anger’ (Josh 7:26)