I have found the 2X2'

[pianoman]

Mr. ddowdy. Let me keep this real simple and see if you can follow it that way.
Number 1: You and your friend can't seem to understand that I am not judging you.
Number 2: You and your friend take anything that is mentioned, and twist it around to have it appear that it is a judgement against you.
Number 3: You and your friend really need to READ the things that I have written to see that the only things that are judgments are labled so, by me, and that simply refers to the text that has been twisted around by you and your friend to have my coments appear as something other than what they are.
Number 4: If you and your friend will do this with simple comments that are not aimed at anyone, how much weight should be given to anything else that you write?
Number 5: I know what projection is in psycology, and that is so appropiate for you to bring that up as that is what you and your friend are doing with any comments in general that aren't aimed at anyone in general, so you project them in a fashion that makes them look like an attack.
Quote from your post refering to me:
It was not to damage, expose or frighten you. I did not intend to belittle, berate or aggravate you. I singled you out and perhaps you feel that I criticized you...if that is the case...if your feelings are hurt and you believe me responsible for in some manner having done you injury with my words...I can only sit here with a huge smile on my face and shake my head in my disbelief of your ability to believe that I would take anything that you say to me as any of the descriptive words you use, like frighten, expose, damage. You do not have the power to do any of this to me and I pray you don't really believe that you have the power to do that to anyone else, but then again, unlike you and your friend, I actually read your posts and am amazed at what I read!

[learnedaboutgrace]

ariandgabe

hi,

I couldn't tell whether you were agreeing or disagreeing with the Grace Bible Church's stand on apostles...

My understanding is that the 12 apostles=12 tribes and 1 apostle, Paul, apostle to the gentiles =1 group, the Body of Christ

[pianoman]

Nathan9, that is a great point you made. When someone is in attack mode all of the time, and not real good at listening and then taking everything as a personal attack against them, they are not a very good candidate for a good open debate. I will listen to almost anyone for a while, but if I don't agree with them, I don't have to attack them or think they are attacking me.
Also, when you are reading or listening to someone else, just take it at face value. It doesn't have to be an attack or opening for an argument, just a different point of view. When you can't listen to a different point of view, you are pretty much all done learning. Personally, I have a lot to learn, so I listen to others points of view. Sometimes there comes a point where I just have to turn them off and listen to something else and if I am saying something that others don't agree with, if they want to point it out and let it go, that is great, but with me, wait until I criticize you or attack you. Don't take a general statement and turn it into something it is not.

[ddowdy]

Oct 2, 2008 19:40:00 GMT -5 @pianoman said:

Mr. ddowdy. Let me keep this real simple and see if you can follow it that way.
Number 1: You and your friend can't seem to understand that I am not judging you.
Number 2: You and your friend take anything that is mentioned, and twist it around to have it appear that it is a judgement against you.
Number 3: You and your friend really need to READ the things that I have written to see that the only things that are judgments are labled so, by me, and that simply refers to the text that has been twisted around by you and your friend to have my coments appear as something other than what they are.
Number 4: If you and your friend will do this with simple comments that are not aimed at anyone, how much weight should be given to anything else that you write?
Number 5: I know what projection is in psycology, and that is so appropiate for you to bring that up as that is what you and your friend are doing with any comments in general that aren't aimed at anyone in general, so you project them in a fashion that makes them look like an attack.
Quote from your post refering to me:
It was not to damage, expose or frighten you. I did not intend to belittle, berate or aggravate you. I singled you out and perhaps you feel that I criticized you...if that is the case...if your feelings are hurt and you believe me responsible for in some manner having done you injury with my words...I can only sit here with a huge smile on my face and shake my head in my disbelief of your ability to believe that I would take anything that you say to me as any of the descriptive words you use, like frighten, expose, damage. You do not have the power to do any of this to me and I pray you don't really believe that you have the power to do that to anyone else, but then again, unlike you and your friend, I actually read your posts and am amazed at what I read!

Ah my poor confused mr. pianoman have no fear, keep your smile I won't engage in a battle of wit with you. You see sir, I refuse to take advantage of an unarmed opponent. It would be nice if you could let it go but clearly you can't. Your post still made no sense, was still befuddled and confused but at least it was somewhat better organized so you are improving a little. If it were possible my friend I would throw you some IQ maybe 20-25 points worth...perhaps boost you up to average. I have plenty to spare and you are clearly in need. Alas it doesn't work that way. Keep trying though my challenged friend with all the room you have for improvement you can't help but to make some sort of progress.

On the bright side you claim to know all about projection and, I will admit you seem to employ it almost constantly. For today's lesson I will teach you about psychology let us start with how to spell it...p..s..y..c..h..o..l..o..g..y.

Grab yourself a copy of the DSM III or IV and look up members of religous cults for some personal insight. I will know what is required for your next lesson after your next post. Keep that huge smile on your face but try not to drool too much.

[ariandgabe]

Dear learnedaboutgrace
What you understand seems to make sense to me too.

You wrote;
My understanding is that the 12 apostles=12 tribes and 1 apostle, Paul, apostle to the gentiles =1 group, the Body of Christ

That explains a lot of things, the twelve thrones were for the 12 tribes of Israel, I was wondering; hey, what about us?

I can't remember the post on Grace Bible Church, can you refresh my memory please?

I love those that use Gods Word to figure out the hidden secrets (and there are a lot).
God bless you and keep on seeking and teaching others. God knows that Spiritual wisdom is lacking today more then ever.
In Jesus name:
Odon

[pianoman]

ddowdey. Thanks for the offer of the IQ points, but I wouldn't want you to go negative on the scale. Why didn't you use 5 or 10 points in your reply here?
Why do you feel the need for an opponent? I can clearly see that you have a very large ego, or are those numbers supposed to be the rest of your IQ?
I am very pleased to be "judged" by you, as well as your friend.

Thank you for the spelling lesson, and when you are talking about transference, use the correct term, as not all will be able to reach down that far to see what you were trying to impress the readers here, but then again, I am trying to type while taking care of 5 grandkids, and am prone to mistakes because of that and being human.

You might want to grab any bible and read about man's intelligence in I Corinthians, but it looks like the bible is to empty to you without reading books that explain what everyone that starts a new religion writes as the "true" meaning of the bible. You see there are so many of us fools out here that can simply read scripture and not have to have it dissected by "experts" and then we go to the one "Expert" and ask him for the real meaning. Try it some time.
As for me, I will let it go at this, as I see that you are following "Ari" so close that if he stops suddenly, you may need a surgeon to separate you two. Good luck and Good Bye

[ariandgabe]

Thank you my friend Pianoman for that uplifting and encouraging words to my friend Mr. Dowdy. I know he must be humiliated to even answer your post, so I hope he won’t mind me answering for him on this one (it includes me too).

I understand how cheated you must feel to have spent all these years with a sect that now you see and know walk in darkness. It must be devastating to have read so much of scripture and now to find out that most of it you really don’t understand, that you have been taught wrong. That everything you know of the Bible you must throw out and start fresh. But it is not too late my friend, not for you or Nathan (well, I don’t think Nathan knows that yet).

But you MUST seek that which you ‘hate’ the most; WISDOM.
You see my friend, wisdom is not bad, it takes wisdom to come nearer to God, and to search the scriptures so you could stand up to wicked men with their lies (Like the Workers) and not be ashamed.

Ps 111:10
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever.
NKJV

Matt 13:54
54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works?

Ps 37:30
30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom,
And his tongue talks of justice.

Can’t you see that the world is in darkness, that they can’t seem to understand the basic instructions to ‘life’, and the first one is; ‘fear the Lord’.

Prov 1:7
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
NKJV

The Workers reacted the same way you and Nathan do, that is when they realized that God has given me spiritual wisdom, they became defensive and even angry at times. They couldn’t just mumble a bunch of meaningless chatter mixed with a few distorted quotes from scripture to me, so to protect their pride they said I was un-teachable.

But when I proved to them that I am willing to hear ANYTHING they had to say to me, they kept their silence. I begged them that if they were not able to relate to me through scripture, then get someone who could, but gain, silence and shunning.

Pianoman, I love to hear wise people talk, because I always thought that I was stupid, since that is what my parents always told me. I mean, you are a teacher for Pete-sake. I hope you don’t respond to any of your students who said something you didn’t know or understand the way you respond to Mr. Dowdy and me? Do you punish the students that you see wisdom in, and send them to detention for ‘being smart’? Maybe you have, according to your posts and how you respond to people you think are smart, there is a huge possibility you have. (I hope not)

I am honored that Mr. Dowdy finds my writings smart and exciting. It takes a wise and a humble man to acknowledge that. We both know he’s much smarter then I am, but he knows that many of the things I say cannot be from me, for even Einstein could not comprehend even the basic spiritual meanings hidden in the Bible. If he could have, he would have have been known as a Christian and not an agnostic (or whatever a nonbeliever prefer to be called

My friend, why don’t you take your own advice that you gave us:
Take a chill-pill, humble yourself
Read your Bible and pray that the Holy Spirit would give you wisdom that comes from above, instead of following the traditions of your church and attack anyone you don’t understand. I know it’s frightening, I know they promised you that there is no other belief and interpretation of scripture as close to God as they are ( I grew up in a church that taught the same thing) you are not left alone, the Lord promised that; “and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matt 28:20

1 Peter 4:7-9
But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."

[learnedaboutgrace]

Jul 3, 2008 22:56:04 GMT -5 ariandgabe said:

Are there Apostles today?
Dear brothers in Christ, the first instruction that is given to those that study the Scriptures is to examine what is written by some basic rules, like; when it was written (like for instance, before the ascension or after), and to whom it is written, and ‘by whom’ it is said, or who is saying this.

First of all read Acts 1:21-26; “And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples” to talk. With Jesus ascension, he was the rock that held them together until the coming of the Holy Spirit. They were just talking about closing the door (or book) on Judas and prayed to the Lord as to who should it be to take his place; Acts 1:25 “to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." But there was no answer.

Second, It was ‘not’ the Holy Spirit that called them together to do this, it was the Apostles idea. As you read on, you will see that as they prayed; “24 and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.” The Apostles did not hear Jesus answer, or a voice by the Holy Spirit, or an angel. God had other plans that were already in the making. Because of their impatience, they tried to do a very important thing without the Holy Spirits guidance. And without that, they had to resort to their old ways and customs of casting lots; “26 and they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”

So here they thought that they did something wise by rushing to replace Judas so their number would remain 12, but as we read later on, Jesus had someone else in mind. As He personally picked the original 12 Apostles, it was Jesus that would later pick the replacement and NOT men. Gal 1:1
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead).

Grace Bible Church:
This LAST passage is devastating for those who believe that there are apostles today. In order to be an apostle one has to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. Paul says that Jesus was seen last of all by him. He is the last one to see Jesus after his resurrection. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle. Therefore, there can be no apostles today.

Wow, who says there cannot be Apostles today? Who says what God can or cannot do? As I showed you from scripture that it was the Apostles idea to pick a replacement for Judas. It was also they who try to come up with some kind of standard as to what this person should be like. This is NOT how God operates in the New Kingdom. He doesn’t go by; who saw what, how long was he with Christ, how many wonders did he see Jesus do, this is mans ideas. And then, since many fit those categories, they resorted to casting lots.

When Jesus chooses an Apostle, He will do it with power and might. It is between Him and the man He choose and NOT depending on the roll of a dice. This is why all the confusion, people think that since it is written in the Bible, it is Gods Words talking. Whoa there, Satan and the Pharisees say a lot of things in the Bible, are we to build a church on that too? Oh yes.. that’s exactly what’s happening.

The good people of Grace Bible Church has set a standard for God in picking Apostles; “Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.” Sorry God, Peter and the rest of those 120 gathered together has made the rules.

Not likely my dear friend that is NOT what the Bible teaches. But neither are the ‘Workers’ or ‘Elders’ of the 2X2 church, Apostles. No Apostle of our day could possibly ‘hide’ when someone challenges the very foundation of their church. And what Apostle would say: “Sorry, we ran out of power to do miracles. Come back later.
I pray Lord:
Acts 26:17-18
“… gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'”
NKJV

Here is the post where I saw the reference to Grace Bible Church and was confused by what was meant.

I believe that they way the replaced Judas was the way it was "spose" to be done so he was a legitimate apostle.

[ariandgabe]

Learnaboutgrace wrote:
Here is the post where I saw the reference to Grace Bible Church and was confused by what was meant.

I believe that they way the replaced Judas was the way it was "spose" to be done so he was a legitimate apostle.
***** ***


Dear learnaboutgrace,
Thank you for that reminder; I now see what we were talking about.

After reading a lot of posts here on TMB, I read a few that made me re-think what I wrote about picking Apostles and learned many other things too.

The Holy Spirit was not yet with the 11, so I guess casting lots would have been traditionally proper for them to do. I was going to say; I don’t believe that once they (and we) receive the Spirit, should or would have cast lots to choose a Apostle or a minister, but then I have never been in that position to do so either. (I mean, if there were 3 qualified Apostles that I had to choose from, I would have chosen all 3.)

So since they wanted to fill the emptiness of a lost one, and then later Jesus picked Paul which would mean that there were 13 living Apostles at that time, I don’t understand why did they have the need to have 12 in the first place?

Was it for the sake of the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel as you said? Then what is Paul going to do? (I do see that he is the Apostle for the Gentiles) But then where do you see him sitting? (Can you show me in the Bible?)

I always thought that we (Gentiles) were grafted in, so WHAT tribe were we grafted into since we ‘too’ are children of God being of ‘one flock’? Is it the 13th tribe that Apostle Paul will be judging over? Where is that in the Bible? (I’m just asking)

John 10:16
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
NKJV

As for what your churches quote:
This LAST passage is devastating for those who believe that there are apostles today. In order to be an apostle one has to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. Paul says that Jesus was seen last of all by him. He is the last one to see Jesus after his resurrection. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle. Therefore, there can be no apostles today.

I can find NO scripture (as far as I can see for now) to refute that. I would also like to believe this, since there are so many false teachers and those that have been chosen ‘Apostles’ and ‘Prophets’ by churches today have turned out to be nothing but egotistical liars.

Until I study and find something opposing to how your church understands this, I recant and apologize for jumping to such conclusions as to say that; ‘Grace Bible Church set a standard in picking Apostles’. You did not set a standard but only conveyed what the Bible had already said.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I would have hated to remain in ignorance thinking there are a bunch of Apostles walking around today.

All in Jesus name
Odon

Prov 27:17
7 As iron sharpens iron,
So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.
NKJV

[ddowdy]

Thank you Odon (ariandgabe) for your words. I am not going to respond to mr. pianoman because it would only be nurturing components of my spirit that are better left unencouraged. Also I couldn't have responded any more accurately than my friend did. It is sad to see one who should be benefitting from the wisdom and experience of his years instead reveal a heart full of disillusionment and bitterness.

In his post mr. pianoman did get one thing right...I do feel close to my friend Odon. He is someone who can be counted on not only to stand up for his friends but also to share his wisdom and his knowledge. Perhaps the handful who frequent this board to criticise him would realize these things if you could get beyond the bitter realities you have been confronted with and recognize as both my friend and I have done...that God gives us these experiences for a reason. Although it may seem as though your lives have been thrown away in your struggles to conform to a cult based on the whims of men rather than the word of God. It is not yet too late to take your experiences and apply them to a new life full of new hope with Jesus at the helm instead of some random person. I would be virtually certain that Odon is already in your corner praying for you, interceding on your behalf and hoping that each of you will take the hand offered before time does run out.

[pianoman]

FOR ODEN, DDOWDEY, AND ARIGABE. Thanks again for judging me so well (so what if the bible tells us not to judge) and next time God speaks to you, could you put me on three-way with you? I promise not to say a word, but only listen, since you both have deemed me as unworthy of the knowledge you posess that you have received from God directly and only you have that knowledge. I don't know who you are, and would like to keep it that way, I am sorry to say. You can understand God's speaking to you, but a humble, simple man like myself, you seem to miss the simple points. If the blind lead the blind...................?

THE END

[ddowdy]

Oct 9, 2008 15:48:12 GMT -5 @pianoman said:

"FOR ODEN, DDOWDEY, AND ARIGABE. Thanks again for judging me so well (so what if the bible tells us not to judge) and next time God speaks to you, could you put me on three-way with you? I promise not to say a word, but only listen, since you both have deemed me as unworthy of the knowledge you posess that you have received from God directly and only you have that knowledge. I don't know who you are, and would like to keep it that way, I am sorry to say. You can understand God's speaking to you, but a humble, simple man like myself, you seem to miss the simple points. If the blind lead the blind...................?"

Like most in your cult you begin your argument with a fallacy, base it upon more fallacies and then reach an illogical conclusion. Neither my friend nor myself have ever judged you piano. Neither of us have claimed to be speaking directly with God. Those are your lies which you have perpetuated. Showing yourself to be not only a liar but a pathetic old fool who has nothing better to do than try to antagonize others. Leave it alone. I am not going to continue a dialogue with you and, I suspect neither will my friend. You simply are not worth it. Just a lonely old man with nothing to show for his wasted life. Sad? Yes. Unfortunate? Unfortunately. Sick? Too much so for me to fix. Redeemable? That is not up to me. That is it for me...even though I know piano that you will be back on here with more of your lies and circular logic or, should I say illogic? Like a zoo monkey you can't help it...willing even to debase yourself for something that passes as social contact in your small small world. Adios.

[ariandgabe]

Brother Daniel, you just can't help answering him can you?

I know, he has that effect on me too, "over and out" but I could hear him squaking me. But this too is the Lords will. It refreshes our minds why we left the church of the 2X2's. And this is also proof to others of the damage it can do to those that stay.

I still pray for you pianoman, God is my witness.

1 Tim 5:24-25
24 Some men's sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. 25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.
NKJV

I pray the later for us all.

[ddowdy]

True Odon my brother. Just as you bring out the best of me. Mr. Piano brings out my worst. I am through with him though now.

[pianoman]

I just read the post of the week that was dated Nov. 4th , by Sapphire. I think if all of the people that come on this site would read that, they may understand how different opinions are alright and come from different "parts of the body" . If we are not capable of that, we need to do as the scripture says, "if your hand offends you, cut it off" I think then we would have a lot of folks, myself included, that may not have many body parts left. Please everyone, read that and consider the wisdom..................