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Post by jdouglas on Aug 25, 2008 22:33:25 GMT -5
Our 90 year old bible study teacher made an interesting comment about being chosen. He said God didn't choose us and reject others as unsaveable. He chose us out to tell others and bring them to Christ. The Bible says he wills everyone to be saved. But since he knows our future he knows what our choices will be. Just a thought. Jen
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Post by What Hat on Aug 26, 2008 9:14:40 GMT -5
Our 90 year old bible study teacher made an interesting comment about being chosen. He said God didn't choose us and reject others as unsaveable. He chose us out to tell others and bring them to Christ. The Bible says he wills everyone to be saved. But since he knows our future he knows what our choices will be. Just a thought. Jen That's a good thought. I think also God is working with everyone at some level. I could be wrong about that. I always go back to Romans 1, where Paul speaks of earlier civilizations being held accountable for how God spoke to them through their conscience. My personal sense of fairness doesn't allow for those who have never heard the Gospel to be damned. Of course, God might have a different view on it, but He's not made me to understand anything different.
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Post by ariandgabe on Aug 26, 2008 13:20:14 GMT -5
Wow, I love what Dennis Jacobsen wrote on July 23 2008 regarding predestination. I also like Robs view and some others too. You know it's weird that when I (or anyone else) ask a question that relates to everyday living like: on divorce, head covering for women, bearing arms, I almost instantly get a bunch of scripture verses popping into my head, sometimes so fast that I can't even write them down. But when I start looking into 'predestination' which leads right into the human minds understanding of 'I Am Who I Am', (God), and my mind starts shutting off and I get a headache if I try to push it. I guess I'm not alone.
But I KNOW this much;
Luke 11:9-11 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. NKJV
So I will continue to 'seek' the answer on this subject and see what Gods Spirit reveals. I know there has to be a simple explanation, since why would God create this world, send His only Begotten Son to die if He just picks and chooses who He wants and who He doesn't want without our choice in the matter. The whole creation would not make any sense if that was so. And just by looking at all creation, everything has a beautiful design and purpose, and it all comes together so nice, as He said when He looked at all He made; "and it was ALL good".
Another thing that tells me that God gave us free will is that as I said, everything in creation is perfect, EXCEPT man's heart. 'We have all sinned and come short ...' so THAT is my proof that it is NONE of Gods doing, it is our free will that keeps people hating each other. So SIN is the proof of free will. What you think Bros?
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Post by ariandgabe on Aug 26, 2008 13:43:59 GMT -5
That make sense too Jen, Hope the old guy sticks around for you in your studies.
Rom 8:28-30 28 We know that in all things God works for good with those who love him, those whom he has called according to his purpose. 29 Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many brothers. 30 And so those whom God set apart, he called; and those he called, he put right with himself, and he shared his glory with them. TEV
"and those he called, he put right with himself" is past tense, done deal. So it must be that as the old man said; “so that the Son would be the first among many brothers” why else would God wait any longer; “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise” accept that He is; “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance”?
2 Peter 3:8-9 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. NKJV
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Post by What Hat on Aug 26, 2008 16:23:10 GMT -5
Ari and gabe, Those verses are good affirmations of God's openness and promise to all, and I recall a favourite byline of F&W, that God is not a respecter of persons.
On one point, I'm not sure what you mean - that His Creation is perfect except for man's heart.
Incidentally, one of the philosophical tests I like to use is whether or not a stmt is falsifiable. If you take the opposite of what you've stated, do you end up with something that is really any different.
As an example, people will say - yes, 'once saved, always saved'. You ask, what about so-and-so who said he was saved and now says he has become an atheist. Well, the answer comes back, he never was saved in the first place. We've now made the whole concept of being 'saved' into a very malleable definition in order to make the principle come true. And if you were to say the statement is true or not true, it really doesn't make much difference, since one can feel saved, and not be saved, so how can one make any kind of statement about the state of being saved.
Another example, perhaps, is the idea of saying God's creation is 'perfect'. I'm not sure what your concept of an 'imperfect' creation would be then. What would such a creation function like if the one we have is 'perfect'?
Just probing ....
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 26, 2008 18:07:23 GMT -5
[There is a thread already on the board about 'once saved, always saved' and I would connect to this. Jesus said He would not lose those whom the Father gave to Him (and no man comes to Jesus unless the Father draw him) and I am coming to the belief that yes, once saved (or chosen), always saved because the truly elect cannot be lost, but will always be drawn back by the Father if wandering, will be corrected, chastised and set back on the pathway to heaven - over and over if necessary. If a person falls away completely, then it leads to the conclusion that that person was not elect in the first place. The great mystery is how and why God chose those He would save.]
Msmarie, The day I read those scriptures about the (Father drawing and the Holy Spirit convicting) my eyes opened to the fact. That I can do nothing other than be christ to my neighbor. I felt a release and freedom in my soul. I had been so intense about the world coming to Christ. Psalm 139 v 13-16 is precious to me. It lights me up on the inside the thought of my God considering to create me, the thought that went into it, the time, the plan the purpose.Then for him to guard my life, shape my destiny, allow me freedom to choose. Drawing me close, allowing me to make mistakes, holding me in his hand and nudging me in the right direction. Picking me up when I fall. Always constantly loving me.
[Or, the elect are those whom God foreknew (not fore-ordained) would come to Christ.]
I believe this also. Preordained is something else. The calling and anointing.
Pianoman, No matter how much I learn about our heavenly Father the thing that sobers me is the scripture that refers to the most recent babe in Christ and how much greater they are because they have just entered his kingdom. I enjoy your posts BTW. The thing that makes any Christian 'special' is the grace of God. Without his grace their would be no gift.
[Why do some respond to the Word of God and others do not? Election does explain this.]
I think this is about timing, timing in a persons life. Some find God at a young age, as teens, some as adults and some on their death bed. I believe it is our repsonsiblity to pray for the lost call for them. Jesus Christ ever interceedeth for us, we interceed for the lost. We should never put ourselves over them in a condesending way because we are christians or think that we are better than them because we are not. He created them too. He considered their lives as much as he considered mine or yours. I prefer to meditate on scriptures where Jesus would like that non should perish. Where there is hope for all.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 26, 2008 19:25:36 GMT -5
I'm glad you make this distinction - i.e. that God foreknows but does not pre-ordain. But then is there anything God does not foreknow? Still there are quite a few verses that impress upon us how God did foreknow about those who would serve God, the elect.
This verse talks about things that God has done and things we must do:
1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Can one be 'elect' and yet not be 'saved' in the end? I ask this in all seriousness, not a rhetorical question.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 26, 2008 23:22:07 GMT -5
[ But then is there anything God does not foreknow?]
I seriously doubt that there is anything he does not know simply because He Is All knowing
[ Still there are quite a few verses that impress upon us how God did foreknow about those who would serve God, the elect. This verse talks about things that God has done and things we must do: 1 Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.]
Making your calling and election sure. What does that mean? Is it doing the will of the Father? Obedience is better than sacrifice. Ive gone through times of tremendous obedience for long periods of time and then moments of pure rebellion due to things I was suffering at the time.
[Can one be 'elect' and yet not be 'saved' in the end? I ask this in all seriousness, not a rhetorical question.]
Dont think so. Based on these scriptures: 2 Peter 1:10, therefore my brothers be all the more eager to make your calling and elections sure. For if you do these things you will never fall, and you will recieve a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ. In my bible relating to 2 Peter 1:10 it talks of diligence/calling/security/spiritual abundance/ Christs kingdom/ Eternal kingdom and salvation/Abundant salvation.Rev 7:14
Abundant salvation. Da 12:3 "Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteuosness, like the stars forever and ever." Mt 25:34" Then the King will say to those on his right 'come you who are blessed by my father take your inheritance the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.'" 2 Co 4:17"For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outways them all." 2 Peter 1:11 Rev 7:14" I answered 'sir you know,' And he said, These are they who have come out of the great tribulation they have washed their robes and made them white with the blood of the lamb." Rev 7:15" Therefore they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them."
Predestination Pr 16:4, Acts4:28, Romans 8:29, 9:11,Eph 1:4,,3:11, 1Peter 1:20 the elect Mt 24:22,31, Luke 18:7, Rom 8:33, 2 Ti 2:10, 1 Peter1:2, chosen ones Dt 7:6, Ps 4:3, 1 Co 1:26, Eph 1:4, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:10
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2008 8:59:13 GMT -5
Thanks for all that, shushy. That will be an interesting study and I will go over it the next few days.
Right off the top though. What does it mean to 'fall' in the first verse. Did not even Satan start in heaven and fall?
But no need to answer that. You can see that I will read those verses with some resistance to the idea that one of the 'elect' could not lose out. My gut feel is that we contain the seeds of the Spirit and also of pride; pride that says we don't need the Saviour. I think your point is that once the seed takes hold it cannot fail but the parable of the Sower indicates otherwise. Answer if you wish, but I will read those verses above, so it's not necessary for you to do double work until I've read them.
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Post by shushy on Aug 27, 2008 20:45:19 GMT -5
[Thanks for all that, shushy. That will be an interesting study and I will go over it the next few days.]You are welcome. There is more but didnt have the time. Off the top of my head. Lucifer the arch angel fell into rebellion, which is the sin of witchcraft. He was lifted up with pride, pride came before his fall. He wanted to be worshiped because he led the angels in worship and was jealous of God. A 3rd of the angels were with him when God changed Lucifers image and called him satan. He and the 3rd of the angels fell but were actually cast out of heaven because of the rebellion. Personally I dont think we can fall and him not pick us up or pull us back. Unless we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. We can rebell against his commands, but repentence draws us back. We can stumble etc and he picks us up. Fall is another study. Heres some scriptures.: Ps 37:24,55:22"he will never let the righteous fall.", Ps 69:9,145:14,"TheLord upholds all those who fall" Pr11:28, Isa 40:7,Mt 7:25, Lk 10:18, 11:17,23:30, Romans 3:23,Heb 6:6. Jude 24 "able to keep you from falling" [But no need to answer that. You can see that I will read those verses with some resistance to the idea that one of the 'elect' could not lose out.]Lose out you mean loose salvation? Sorry lose out is a term from the meetings. I havent heard it any where else. These scriptures will help I think. [My gut feel is that we contain the seeds of the Spirit and also of pride; pride that says we don't need the Saviour. I think your point is that once the seed takes hold it cannot fail but the parable of the Sower indicates otherwise. Answer if you wish, but I will read those verses above, so it's not necessary for you to do double work until I've read them.]We have a soul man and a spirit man. Our soul man is at emnity with God. That is why we struggle inside sometimes. Because our renewed spirit man born of the spirit of God is opposed/different to our soul man the one we were born with. Our mind will and emotions are our soul. Our heart responds to Christ and is connected to our mind. Our heart is linked to our spirit. Our mind is the seat of conflict between both kingdoms. Pride/anger/hatred/death/murder etc comes from the soul. The new spirit man grows through prayer, watering by the word of God and nurturing by ministers who teach, preach, build us up in our most holy faith through encourgement and edifying us as the lords children. That is why he says "put off the old man and put on the new man". It is a choice. The new man being the fruit of the spirit and the fruit of repentence. Hope I havent lost you.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 27, 2008 21:29:21 GMT -5
I've not yet heard a so-called 'meeting' term that is not in Scripture. "Lose out" or "neglect".
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
But I agree with you I don't like to see the term applied as it can be in a judgemental way. Mind you, no one else I know in the fellowship likes it either, so perhaps that's from days gone by.
No you certainly haven't lost me on the new man/ old man; nothing I haven't heard before. Except your use of the term "soul man". We usually just use the terms old man/ new man; or more simply, the flesh versus the Spirit.
Were you in the fellowship at one time or have you just heard about it?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 28, 2008 18:03:03 GMT -5
What, I was born and raised and left in my early 30's. Which is now many moons ago.
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Post by worker83 on Aug 28, 2008 20:01:49 GMT -5
Just off the top, as you say, without careful recent study, has anyone considered the 'predestination' to be referring to the 'what' and not the 'who' ? Meaning that which is pre-destined is that we are to be conformed to the image of his son. That's a very simple explanation and requires study to go further. . .just a seed thought to think about . . . .
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Post by What Hat on Aug 28, 2008 20:06:11 GMT -5
What, I was born and raised and left in my early 30's. Which is now many moons ago. More than a few moons for me, too. Since my 30s, that is.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 28, 2008 20:06:44 GMT -5
Just off the top, as you say, without careful recent study, has anyone considered the 'predestination' to be referring to the 'what' and not the 'who' ? Meaning that which is pre-destined is that we are to be conformed to the image of his son. That's a very simple explanation and requires study to go further. . .just a seed thought to think about . . . . Thanks, I will keep that at the back of my mind.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 29, 2008 7:40:44 GMT -5
worker83, I will l try to look at predestination on my day off.
Another thing that tells me that God gave us free will is that as I said, everything in creation is perfect, EXCEPT man's heart. 'We have all sinned and come short ...' so THAT is my proof that it is NONE of Gods doing, it is our free will that keeps people hating each other. So SIN is the proof of free will. What you think Bros]
ari and gabe, theres a scripture[no time to find it] that talks about our hearts being desperately wicked and they are. Yes, sin would be proof of free will.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 29, 2008 9:43:06 GMT -5
I have a little trouble with that concept. It looks to me like our entire world/ nature is imperfect since Adam left Eden.
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Post by Star Welters on Aug 29, 2008 12:44:27 GMT -5
Does God foreknow who will make his calling and election sure? Certainly, but He's not telling us so this is of no consequence to us in our current life. (I think this is a similar line of thinking to what Dennis is saying above). I don't think that Dennis is saying that the election of the Saints "is of no consequence to us." I thought Dennis was bang on in his post. God exists out of time. The whole issue of if and when he calls the elect is a finite issue; God is not bound by these constraints. It is also a testament to the soverienty and Omnipotence of God that we cannot boast of our salvation but only for the work of the Son.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 29, 2008 13:01:17 GMT -5
Predestination:
Pr 16:4, The LORD works out everything for his own ends— even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Acts4:28,28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
Romans 8:29, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:
Eph 1:4,For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
3:11, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1Peter 1:20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
Referring to 'what' and not the 'who.' Looking at these verses tells me, He knows and knew all things. He predestined people for his purposes and chose them. He uses the saved and the unsaved. His Kingdom and his plans for his kingdom are of paramount importance to him.
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Post by ariandgabe on Aug 29, 2008 16:41:39 GMT -5
How, I love you fellow Believers.
Dear ‘What’ regarding your question; “On one point, I'm not sure what you mean - that His Creation is perfect except for man's heart.”
You are right in pointing that out; ‘how could God create everything perfect ‘except’ mans heart?’ and that IS my wrong. God DID make mans heart PERFECT, as was Satan created perfect. What I had in mind and what I wrote seem ‘somewhat’ contradicting (though Shushy picked up on my meaning)
Let me explain in more detail; Satan’s and mans heart was created perfect, which included the ability to oppose, rebel, (SIN) against his Creator. To ‘rebel’ is to defy authority and is NOT a sin. Satan has authority, it is not sin to rebel against him, so even that is a perfect part or attributes that God gave our hearts. It is when we ‘rebel’ against God that this imperfection comes into being. And THAT is ‘our doing’, so Gods creation remains perfect and ‘good’ until we use the rebellion ‘against’ God. (This is what I meant by; ‘except our hearts’ but should have said; ‘what we do with our heart’)
You might say:”Well, if it was God who gave us the ability to ‘rebel’ and if we use it to ‘rebel’ against Him, we become less then perfect. So a part of ‘rebel’ is ‘not perfect’.”
First, the ability to ‘rebel’ is a perfect attribute, and we would NOT be perfect ‘without it’. Perfect means ‘to be whole’ or ‘complete’ and without the ability to ‘rebel’ we would be missing an attribute thus less then ‘whole’. So it is ‘how we use’ those perfect attributes God has given us that can make us either ‘perfect’ or ‘not perfect. This is why we are here, to learn to use all the ‘perfect’ attributes God has given us in a way as to NOT oppose God but we messed up. That ONE mistake of Eve and Adam to oppose God has forever made us imperfect, and we know this, that God is perfect, who NEVER made a mistake nor can He tolerate anyone who has EVER made a mistake.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 29, 2008 17:37:16 GMT -5
Words are such poor instruments. Allow me to elaborate. God's foreknowledge of specific events, and his foreknowledge only, not his plan of salvation or his promises, but his specific foreknowledge of all events, including the choices you and I make each day, is of no consequence to us. It also has no consequences for us. He foreknows, but he does not fore-ordain.
That sounds similar to what Dennis has said. I'm not sure about the entire "outside of time" reasoning to get to that point, as God still seems to think a narrative, sequential structure is a suitable framework for imparting his wisdom to us. I say that because the Bible and its wisdom often utilizes narrative. Outside of that structure we wander into an area of indeterminacy.
Here's another question. Once saved, always saved. Does it matter what we think about that question?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Aug 30, 2008 0:59:55 GMT -5
[Here's another question. Once saved, always saved. Does it matter what we think about that question?]
What, To me it only matters to the point of keeping the faith, my faith in the power of my God. Knowing with confidence that he is able to keep that which I have commited to him. To keep me safe in his arms as I try to make changes in my life to try an fit in with his plan and purposes and most of all that I dont stand in his way but remain with the belief of allowing him to be God. Not have my own agenda. Not be self promoting. Not put myself over another but always to love and prefer my brothers and sisters in the Lord. To stand back and allow God to do it.
[That ONE mistake of Eve and Adam to oppose God has forever made us imperfect, and we know this, that God is perfect, who NEVER made a mistake nor can He tolerate anyone who has EVER made a mistake.]
ari and gabe, I dont understand this comment. The fall of Lucifer caused the casting from heaven to earth of satan, to eat the dust of the earth until the return of Christ. The fall of man caused us to be born into a 'sinful environment.' Now that Lucifer fell and so did adam and eve. Where do you get the fact that God cant tolerate anyone who ever made a mistake? He tolerates me and I make mistakes all the time.
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Post by MsMarie on Aug 30, 2008 12:46:21 GMT -5
I wonder why it is so difficult for our sense of fair play to accept that God is sovereign, King of all creation and that we are His servants - He does the choosing and not us. From the very beginning He did the choosing, from selecting a people and His prophets and disciples, God called and the chosen people responded. His sheep hear His voice.
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Post by shushy on Aug 30, 2008 16:53:52 GMT -5
Those he calls he also equips.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Aug 31, 2008 6:56:13 GMT -5
MsMarie Thanks for your thoughts. As you said in your post - it is a hard thing to understand. We could be inclined to see the unfairness of it but we know this is all in God's divine plan. I have tried to condense my thoughts just for my personal use and this is how they go". "God's elect are chosen by His grace and divine decision alone. By His foreknowledge he knows of their acceptance or rejection of Him but this is not a part of His election process. Because there are some elect this means there are some who are not the elect. God has simply chosen to not include them and it is not for me to question". RA I agree with your statement- God is not on trial here. All stand condemned for their sins. No one seeks after God- He has come to us and made for Himself a people. Why, or how He makes His decisions is beyond us. The Elect are the beneficiaries of a merciful King's decision to grant mercy, otherwise none would be saved.
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Post by ariandgabe on Sept 4, 2008 13:15:29 GMT -5
Shushy Yes, we all make mistakes, God still can't tollerate even one sin, but this is where Jesus and His blood come into play, and it was all Gods idea before creation.
MsMarie wrote:
"I wonder why it is so difficult for our sense of fair play to accept that God is sovereign, King of all creation and that we are His servants - "
very well put, it would have taken me a half a page to explain it my way. God bless you all.
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Post by MsMarie on Sept 6, 2008 3:57:17 GMT -5
How I love this message board where we can have such a good discussion between us without being marred by the personal vitriol we often see on the other boards. As we share our thoughts, it crosses my mind that if all of you were not elect, then you just would not be taking part at all. If you have responded to God's drawing power (which we all obviously have, despite having some differing opinions) then then be joyful and so very grateful to Him - it all could have so easily have passed us by.
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outsidein
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Post by outsidein on Sept 6, 2008 8:49:26 GMT -5
I think it's because we equate fairness and justice which are not the same things.
God never claims to be fair, but just.
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