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Post by Gene on Sept 10, 2008 14:14:41 GMT -5
How I love this message board where we can have such a good discussion between us without being marred by the personal vitriol we often see on the other boards. As we share our thoughts, it crosses my mind that if all of you were not elect, then you just would not be taking part at all. If you have responded to God's drawing power (which we all obviously have, despite having some differing opinions) then then be joyful and so very grateful to Him - it all could have so easily have passed us by. I don't understand. I am participating here, but I certainly do not feel I am one of the 'elect'. Do you think I am, simply by virtue of the fact that I participate in this discussion?
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Post by MsMarie on Sept 11, 2008 4:06:19 GMT -5
What I was implying is that those who are not drawn to God at all, would have no interest whatsoever in participating. The hallmark of unbelievers is their total lack of interest in the whole subject and you just cannot make them want even to discuss anything remotely connected. Yes, I suppose I do tend to think that those who are interested enough to take part in discussions such as these boards have, certainly have a work in progress at least. God is obviously drawing you in some way or you would not bother even looking at what people have to say. I cannot say whether you are elect, only God can say that, but as long as your interest holds, then I would venture you have a good chance!
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Post by Gene on Sept 11, 2008 15:20:16 GMT -5
What I was implying is that those who are not drawn to God at all, would have no interest whatsoever in participating. The hallmark of unbelievers is their total lack of interest in the whole subject and you just cannot make them want even to discuss anything remotely connected. Yes, I suppose I do tend to think that those who are interested enough to take part in discussions such as these boards have, certainly have a work in progress at least. God is obviously drawing you in some way or you would not bother even looking at what people have to say. I cannot say whether you are elect, only God can say that, but as long as your interest holds, then I would venture you have a good chance! Thanks for the feedback! g
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 12, 2008 0:12:18 GMT -5
MsMarie, Gene Nelson is open gay. Does God 'draw' people who are proudly living in sin? I thought that God draws only those with repented hearts, who feel sorry for their sins and are looking for repentence and asking for Gods grace, NOT someone who feels no guilt of a sin that God sees as abomination.
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Post by MsMarie on Oct 14, 2008 1:57:47 GMT -5
Jesus showed openly that he would associate with sinners and collected quite a lot of criticism for doing so. He required repentance and a willingness or determination not to fall into sin again and I think this has not changed. We cannot visit our standards of judgment. If God is drawing someone, then He deals with them and the Holy Spirit does His inner work of conviction of sin. If then a person chooses to wear his own standard of righteousness (filthy rags) and not accept Jesus' robe of righteousness, then this person will not enter the kingdom where only those wearing the wedding garment can go. The true sheep hear His voice and obey it. Those who love Me keep my commandments.
I come from a generation where gay people were once arrested, imprisoned, disgraced and often committed suicide. Whilst I cannot as a Christian feel I can condone either these punishments or the promotion and practices of gays (and remember this is my personal opinion) I look upon homosexuality in the same way and with the same sympathy as any affliction - life would have been much easier for this group of people had they been born the same as everyone else and the same norm as the Bible says is the only acceptable way to God.
But perhaps I shall be castigated for saying so, I also believe that even these afflictions can be overcome with God's help and it would be His desire for such an individual to overcome and if that means a life battling against sinful desires, then that is where our sympathy should lie.
Coming back to the subject of this thread, maybe one is elect, and in which case, there will be nothing which will not be overcome, or not - walk away to the perceived wisdom and acceptance of this present world. God help all those who daily struggle to overcome affliction or adversity either mentally or physically and we can only mourn those who will not.
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Post by lin on Oct 14, 2008 6:02:20 GMT -5
ariandgabe: Why do we have to be the exposer of what people are, who cares? Being the one who exposes to me is the worse sin.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 14, 2008 7:21:39 GMT -5
Odon, MsMarie, Gene Nelson is open gay. Does God 'draw' people who are proudly living in sin? I thought that God draws only those with repented hearts, who feel sorry for their sins and are looking for repentence and asking for Gods grace, NOT someone who feels no guilt of a sin that God sees as abomination. Are you judging? Is that what we are supposed to do as Christians, or are we supposed to love our neighbor-regardless of their personal circumstances in life? In regards who God draws, He certainly isn't interested in drawing the righteous, he of course draws those who ARE full of sin. I know because He drew me. I wasn't feeling too guilty or looking for repentance for several years. I lived in sin and more or less practiced sin. Not much point in ignoring us sinners.... That's who Jesus died for on the cross wasn't it? Scott
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Post by degem on Oct 14, 2008 7:52:48 GMT -5
~~~ " Jesus hates the sin but loves the sinner." ~~~
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 14, 2008 11:59:41 GMT -5
MsMarie, you are truly an admirable person by what I read in your posts, but what if you ARE castigated, even killed? Speak up girl, don’t EVER put a bushel over the light God has given you.
Please, both you Marie and the rest of you wonderful people, read what I wrote once more:
“MsMarie, Gene Nelson is open gay. Does God 'draw' people who are proudly living in sin? I thought that God draws only those with repented hearts, who feel sorry for their sins and are looking for repentence and asking for Gods grace, NOT someone who feels no guilt of a sin that God sees as abomination.”
Now I did not just spurt out this without a great deal of thought, Gene has over 2000 Posts and I have been observing him for a while, as I have dietcoke and few others who continuously ‘bash’ the Bible and its authority.
Jesus did NOT go to sinners (like hookers, tax collectors, thief’s) houses to chat with them about their perversions, but to expose them so they would come to repentance. Many DID. Do you really think if those people that He went to would have started to give Jesus their opinions on how stupid and nonsense the ‘Torah’ sounded like and would have started to mock Moses and belittle the miracles God did through him as cheap deceitful tricks, that Jesus would not have left their houses shaking the very dust off His clothes?
ONLY to those that showed a great interest in his teaching (like Zacchaeus and some tax collectors) did He go and eat with, because they showed ‘fruits’ for repentance.
On this very post, Gene was only trying to fit in with Believers, those that have given themselves to Christ, ‘Christians’. He said; “I don't understand. I am participating here, but I certainly do not feel I am one of the 'elect'. Do you think I am, simply by virtue of the fact that I participate in this discussion?”
He was asking you if; ‘simply by virtue of the fact that I participate in this discussion?’ was enough, or a sign of him being one of the ‘elect’, or 'accepted' before God.
Where do you see in his response that he’s agreeing with you? (read his other posts) He, just like thousands of other ‘Gays’ are flocking into churches, holding each others hand and hugging each other as they enter KNOWING that the Bible is clear on defining its stand on homosexuality; that IT IS an ABOMINATION to God.
By being accepted by Christians ‘as they are; ‘HOMOSEXUALS’, and being welcomed as such, you are telling them that it is OK with God. Just listen to what they say at ‘gay parades’ wearing tutus, bras, high heals kissing and reviling front of the cameras and OURKIDS: “God loves us”!!!! And they DON”T mean the sinner but ‘INCLUDING’ their sin. And this YOU ALL guard by ripping at me?
[Dietcoke: Believe it or not, I envy you, aurora. I think "rewriting the Bible" would help a lot of people like me reach your level. Why make it so hard? I vote we drop that Satan fella, too.
Gene Nelson Do you REALLY envy Aurora, DC? Or are you quite pleased to have progressed beyond a faith-based reading of the bible to a view of the bible based upon science and logic? It's okay if that's the case, really!]
Above is another discussion between DC and Gene about rewriting the Bible dropping the ‘Satan Fella’ too. The NIV Bible has already removed tremendous amount of verses from the Bible, hey, how about us Christians re-write it again but this time remove the words; ‘homosexuality, sexual perversion, adultery, thieves, liars, idolaters, murderers’ and so forth? Would that please DC and Gene and the rest who are comfortable living in their sins?
Look at this video on YouTube (if you dare) it is a CNN Larry King live interview with the minister of the biggest church in America, in Huston TX.
Look up: ‘Joel Osteen on the gospel’ and if you want to hear more, listen to other interviews on YouTube. THIS is where America stands as far as Biblical gospel goes. You here sound no different.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 14, 2008 12:29:39 GMT -5
ONLY to those that showed a great interest in his teaching (like Zacchaeus and some tax collectors) did He go and eat with, because they showed ‘fruits’ for repentance. I guess I don't read anything in Jesus' words about only hanging around those that 'show a great interest in His teachings'. He spoke to just about every type of person that crossed his path from what I read in the bible. People are human. Full of sin and all that stuff that God hates. I'm one of those. I am not any better than the next sinner, as I feel sin is sin. Are we supposed to judge others based on their degree of sinfulness, or perhaps our degree of sinfulness? I think that I have enough to worry about without concerning myself with whether someone else is more of a sinner than I am. What I read in your words is that you have a fear that those you think are sinning (by how you believe) are causing a danger to us who have a relationship with Jesus/God. You somehow think that they are going to cause us to lose our faith in Jesus/God because we don't shun them. How in the heck are WE supposed to show OTHERS what Christ means in our lives if we decide to shun everyone who are 'not of us'. Somehow, I think this is the same argument we have concerning other issues here on the TMB. Another thing I feel I should point out to you. You have asked the question, 'isn't this a Christian board?' (something like that) Actually NO.... it isn't. It is a place where people come to discuss their issues regarding the church known as 'The Truth', or THE FRIENDS AND WORKERS'. Many of us ARE Christians here however, but not all.... You are in a minority here. You are in the same category here as others such as Illinois Gal. You did not grow up with this denomination, so are actually not 'ONE OF US'. You belong here however because of the fact that you have had meetings with some of the workers that I put you in touch with there in Texas. So.... Just like every natural family, we are made up of a very diverse group of people, all who have made their choices along the way. MOST of us feel love toward each other even though we may appear to be at each others throats most of the time. Just like in a natural family, there are those who make choices that the 'rest of the family' may not agree with. BUT.... WE ARE STILL FAMILY, and family does not just turn their backs on one another and walk away because of differences. I am sure glad that my natural family didn't do so when I wandered off drinking and drugging and whatever. If anything their love INCREASED because..... it had to. Just my thoughts, Scott
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Post by Gene on Oct 14, 2008 13:59:31 GMT -5
Actually, just to be clear, i don't go to a church, though I have no problem with the gays that do. But just like you, I do find it difficult to comprehend how they can say that same-sex activity is not proscribed by the bible. I LOVE those parades! I've been to the one in Dallas a few times (I used to live there) -- would I have seen you there by any chance? There are usually some Christian groups there, protesting against the gays. And I hear the one in Houston is held at night because it's cooler after sundown. Ever been to that one? It's actually immaterial to me whether those words are in the bible or not. Except that I think it's a pretty cool book as it is (especially the KJV), so I guess I would be opposed to changing anything. It's a pretty good record of the tragedy of mankind over a few thousand years -- and a few dazzling points of light. The story of Jesus is remarkable -- what a man he must have been, and what an example of morality. Pity that the OT description of his heavenly father paints such an opposite and dark picture.
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 14, 2008 14:00:19 GMT -5
Part 2
Gene Nelson, Dietcoke and the rest of you, you will realize on Judgment day that I was the ‘only one’ that truly loved you here. Don’t let their kindness fool you guys, their intention is not good. I do really understand your sins, even though you don’t talk about it much, I know what it is to be tormented by them.
John 3:20-21 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." NKJV
I have been a worse sinner then any of you, so I know what is going on here, don’t let their kind words lead you into everlasting damnation.
PLEASE READ THIS SCRIPTURE
Luke 17:28-30 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. NKJV
Rev 14:9-11 "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." NKJV
Matt 16:23 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." NKJV
Luke 17:1-4 … 3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." NKJV
Luke 19:45-46,
1 Tim 5:19-22 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. 22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. NKJV
2 Tim 4:1-5 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. NKJV
Titus 1:11-16 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. NKJV
Luke 6:37-40 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you."
(DON’T think this means NOT to mention the sin your fellow man is doing, we are to bring all things to the light that the SINS may be laid out before the Lord (confessed) so He can forgive them.)
39 And He spoke a parable to them: "Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? NKJV
Matt 9:10-13 10 Now it happened, as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Him and His disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, "Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance. NKJV
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 14, 2008 14:05:41 GMT -5
I have been a worse sinner then any of you, so I know what is going on here, don’t let their kind words lead you into everlasting damnation.And how did you determine this Odon? I know of what my sins were, but I don't know how you could know of them. Our past is gone with the acceptance of Jesus into our lives wouldn't you agree? To claim: you will realize on Judgment day that I was the ‘only one’ that truly loved you here. You are saying that your love for your 'neighbor' is better than any one elses love? How do you determine that? By judging others? Scott
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 14, 2008 14:12:01 GMT -5
Part 3
Scott Ross Do you think Jesus sat with those sinners to hear them knock the Torah? To listen to their filthy jokes, their mocking Moses and his miracles he did through the power of God like DC and Gene is doing? Do you think the gay men of the town came in holding and kissing their partners with their head in Jesus lap? (This is exactly what many books have written regarding Jesus and homosexuality)
Jesus DID NOT condone sin because He went in to sinners houses. He showed how much he loved humanity (as I am doing) and that Gods grace will set ‘even’ them free.
You are making Gene Nelson think that his perverted way of life and his misconceptions and mockery of the Bible are welcomed and condoned!
Luke 13:26-28 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. NKJV
How many of you pointed to the following scripture to Gene Nelson? Let me look at the previous POSTS and see for myself???
Matt 13:41-43 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV
Matt 13:49-50 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 22:12-13 12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' NKJV
Matt 24:50-51 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. NKJV
I have great respect for you Scott Ross and you know that. But even for you I will not leave the truth hidden. If there is something bothering you, some still un-confessed sin, please IM me and we can share and lay these things before the Lord so Christ’s blood can wash them away, before IT IS TOO LATE. And then maybe you can help me with some of my sins.
(Some have fought in the war and feel the guilt of killing another human all in the name of their country. But this as with other misconceptions, Jesus made it clear that we must ‘love our enemies’ and gave NO hint on any justification to do otherwise. We walk in the newness of life, not as those that fear ‘them that can kill the body’ but we ‘fear HIM that can cast body and soul into hell.’
Most preachers point to Romans cutting the passages before and after ‘honoring the king’. Of course we honor and respect all, especially those in authority. But just because Hitler was a great leader, being a loyal German citizen, I still would not go and partake of any of the killings no matter how ‘evil’ I have been convinced of the Jews to be.
Why disobey my king or my countries ruler in cases like this? Because Jesus is my King now, and He said NOT to even ‘think’ of killing anyone, no matter how wicked and evil. We are to turn ALL to Christ, and it would be hard to do that once I shot them dead.
Rom 12:14-21 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion. 17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men.
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. (This above verse is probably the most perverted peace of scripture in the whole Bible. Some make it read; “If it is possible, if it is not, shoot him.” But we know that it means that if it is NOT possible to live in peace, then LET them hate me. I have done all I could as a Christian, the Lord does NOT hold me responsible for others action of hate towards me.
John 16:20 20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. NKJV
Luke 6:27-31 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. NKJV
19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. NKJV
In Jesus name: ariandgabe
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 14, 2008 14:20:49 GMT -5
you will realize on Judgment day that I was the ‘only one’ that truly loved you here.
Scott Ross You are saying that your love for your 'neighbor' is better than any one elses love? How do you determine that? By judging others?
I'm only responding to these posts here, NOT life in general. I never met any of you except for what I read here. You are welcome to point out my error and show me other posts where others have tackled this 'homosexuality' problem. Thanks Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 14, 2008 14:27:19 GMT -5
Jesus DID NOT condone sin because He went in to sinners houses. He showed how much he loved humanity (as I am doing) and that Gods grace will set ‘even’ them free.I don't think that anyone has said that Jesus condoned sin. No, I don't think you are showing how much you love humanity. I think you are showing how judgemental you are regarding what you percieve to be others sin. Personally I think that it is wrong to set ourselves above others as 'having less sin'. You are making Gene Nelson think that his perverted way of life and his misconceptions and mockery of the Bible are welcomed and condoned! I don't think that I am making Gene think anything of the sort. Loving someone as a neighbor doesn't mean I agree with their life and the way they live it. Just because others think and feel different than I do does not affect my salvation. Perhaps how I ACT and SHOW others about how I feel about Jesus may affect THEIR salvation at some point however. I certainly won't do that by running around pointing out those that are 'more bigger sinners' than I am. Sin is sin in my book. Kinda like the Pharisee being glad he wasn't like others...... Scott
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Post by Gene on Oct 14, 2008 14:47:37 GMT -5
You are making Gene Nelson think that his perverted way of life and his misconceptions and mockery of the Bible are welcomed and condoned! Not at all. I understand that the vast majority of Christians consider homosexuality to be a sin. Some of them apply that belief of theirs to their own lives. Others feel compelled to apply it to other people's lives. It seems like that is what you're doing. In general, I find it easier to get along with those who live by their own such beliefs, but do not expect others to live by them. If you search TMB enough, you'll find that every few months someone comes along and shares scripture with the homosexuals. But you see, I know all those scriptures -- memorized a lot of them -- preached some of them -- and read them hundreds of times over the 25 years I was an active christian and the 10 years I was preaching the gospel. But I find my inspiration in other places now. Can you understand that quoting scripture is effective only if the listener believes it is the word of God?
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Post by Sharon on Oct 14, 2008 21:24:38 GMT -5
God's elect would seem to me to be the individuals that meet the criteria that ONLY God knows He desires in them! How do we prepare to meet that criteria? I believe it is simple and God gave us those "commands" in the old testament and Jesus confirmed and affirmed what the ones were that were the "greatest" and "like unto it". "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy mind and with all thy soul. And the second is like unto it. Love thy brethren as thyself!" Jesus didn't feel it necessary to "quote" the other 10 commandments because as Paul wrote if we obey the second commandment we're going to be fulfilling the other ten automatically, without forethought. The greatest commandment of loving our Lord our God with all our hearts, with all our minds, and with all our souls is the secret! That's when God can put into our hearts and minds the other criteria that only He knows will enable us to be of His elect! NO, it is not that God knows when we are born that that person is foreordained to be His elect! No, I don't believe that for that takes away the freedom of choice, and the end reward of the efforts any would try to make to be a godly person. That way would bring about mass chaos because there'd be many to be relying on the fact that "Well, by God's predestination...I was born to my parents either on His elect list or I wasn't....it isn't going to make on whet of difference what I do in my life. NOr do I mean to infer that it's by works that brings us election. It's by love of God that we do things, not because we're trying to "buy" our election but just because we love Him as our Eternal Father! No?
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Post by juliette on Oct 14, 2008 21:45:16 GMT -5
I'm in the camp that believes that the bible is not the infallible word of God, especially when it goes against the guiding of His spirit that I feel. So I completely reject the ideas about homosexuality that are found in the bible, because I don't believe God is that shallow. Why would God condemn love when there is so much hate in this world? Why would God care what gender we love when gender is only temporal? But I also have huge love and respect for those who, no matter what their view on the "rightness" of homosexuality, put first the commandment of God to love your neighbor as yourself. You can't go wrong with that one!
And I guess I'm a Christian in that I believe that God showed us His love in the form of His son. I don't believe that Christians have the lock on God's grace. In fact, I believe that some people are so evolved that they don't even need religion of any sort to feel the guidiance (I can't get that spelling right, and I'm too lazy to look it up) of God. In fact, I believe that there are people who don't even believe in "God" that are led by Him. God is the universe, great and unknowable. We just like to make up names for Him, and then we love to develop a set of rules to make us feel safe.
Religion can be a tool to bring you closer to God. It can also blind you to His awesome power and love. Enjoy Him! You don't have to make other people feel bad to do it!
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Post by MsMarie on Oct 15, 2008 3:00:23 GMT -5
So many stand confidently in their own standards of righteousness, morality, democracy and justice. My ways are not your ways said God, there is no understanding them by our own standards and especially the standards and tolerances of this present world.
What do people say constantly to me? "I am a good person, I would harm no one, nor steal and I keep moral commandments, I lead a good life and I am happy God would accept me", or even perhaps as above, that homosexuality is just another form of love which of course God ought to approve of, being a God of love. Doesn't this sound like the rich young ruler?
All I can say is that the Bible speaks of sending the Holy Spirit whose mission is to inwardly convict of sin. The elect know of this, they would never call themselves anything else but sinners. They know there is no deserving merit in them but they are a grateful people, loving God because of their deliverance and knowing from what they have been delivered. We just will never understand why God draws some and not others.
What I was saying to Gene was that his interest in the subject, even maybe in knocking it all, being intentionally or unintentionally provocative in his situation, places him nearer God than those who are dead to it all. Who pursued Christians with the intention of scoffing, killing and betraying them? Wasn't it Paul?
I do consider the Bible to be the infallible word of God. There is no doubt that homosexuality is not acceptable to God. He specifically said so. But the nominated sinner is drawn, followed by repentance, cleansing, forgiveness and a Spirit inspired determination to fight to overcome. He becomes righteousness in the eyes of God because he has cast off his own righteousness and accepted the righteousness of Christ. No one is hopeless because we don't know God's mind and purpose, or who His people are.
Gene, you are living dangerously if you ignore inner warnings, or if you say you don't feel them when in fact you do. Only you know this. We don't choose to be dealt with by God, it is always the other way round. Sometimes it looks so easy for those who hear no voice, until we consider their end. Who welcomes applying correction to their lives? Sin by our very nature, is usually what we want to do, enjoy doing, and would hate to renounce, but look at the price of the punishment for them paid by Jesus. The life to come is real and God's promises are true because we can trust the Promiser. Personally I wouldn't take the risk of gambling my eternal life against this present one. The stakes are far too high ......
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 16, 2008 11:07:25 GMT -5
Dear Gene Nelson, Juliette, siwells, and the rest,
If we could just erase 80 percent of the Bible, everyone here and in this country would be happy. But since we are NOT to do that, all these scripture pop into mind that ruins the ‘love’ the gay Jesus portrays to his loved ones. You read all those gay stories of this ‘gay Jesus’ haven’t you? That’s the love people today can adhere to, NOT this Jesus of the Bible who comes on nicely then BAM! He throws in His own version and description of ‘LOVE’:
Eph 5:1-7 1 Walk in Love
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. NKJV
John 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. (See Lord, why do you have to attach strings to loving you? Why can’t we just ‘love’ without those attachments?)
John 3:19-21 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. NKJV
Eph 5:10-12 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. NKJV
EXPOSE the unfruitful works of darkness? But then people will be upset at us Lord, how will we maintain LOVE if we go around POINTING FINGERS to those who so arrogantly and proudly walk in sin?
As one of the worlds greatest talk show hosts Oprah put it; “Are you sure this Bible God is the God of love? I’m not going to follow a God that hates, is jealous, gets angry all the time, discriminates by choosing the Jews over the rest of humanity and all kinds of ‘weak’ traits like that!” (see her on YouTube)
John 13:1 when Jesus knew that His hour had come that He should depart from this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. NKJV
Gal 2:17-20 17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not!
18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
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Post by Gene on Oct 16, 2008 14:25:13 GMT -5
Dear Gene Nelson, Juliette, siwells, and the rest, ... You read all those gay stories of this ‘gay Jesus’ haven’t you? ... No, I have not. Can you direct to one or two that you would recommend I read? Gene
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ddowdy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by ddowdy on Oct 16, 2008 14:30:16 GMT -5
When I was a child growing up I strove to live and perform in a manner that would satisfy my parents. In school, in sports or, in whatever endeavor I undertook, I devoted myself to achieving and succeeding for many reasons but among the most important was the satisfaction, pride and approval of my parents.
With respect to my heavenly father I still see myself as a child. Now I would like to live in such a way that satisfies God, that allows Him to take pride in me and, that wins his approval. How does one best accomplish these goals?
I would submit that it is by following the scriptural blueprint that has been provided for us. While it can be extremely difficult and sometimes even impossible, I believe we are fortunate because our Father wants us to succeed and He gives extra credit for effort.
It is simply human nature to want to take our own way instead of His. I know this having spent virtually all of my life doing just that. We are creative and can come up with a myriad of excuses for following our own path but, ultimately we know if we are traveling in the right direction or not.
I see my friend and brother Odon getting a hard time in this thread and I just want to say that his friendship has been a source of encouragement, inspiration and great joy to me. There is no one more willing to extend his hand than Odon. His honesty is one of the gifts that he freely shares. When he says something in these threads it is not to stir up controversy or cause trouble nor, is it to hurt anyone's feelings. He is motivated by Christian love and I am confident that Odon would be among the first of all of us to extend his hand to Gene or anyone else. He is simply too honest a man to sugarcoat the truth because his greatest concern is for the soul rather than someone's wounded pride.
Anyway, God Bless All of You. I wish you all the best.
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Post by Gene on Oct 16, 2008 14:56:13 GMT -5
ddowdy, it's good to read your testimony of Odon. I hope I haven't given him a hard time about his posts here, because I don't feel that way toward him. He has his beliefs, he feels compelled to share his beliefs with me because he believes I'm going to hell. I can understand that in his mind that is a kind of charity - and I can even respect that in some way.
But on the other hand I know the tremendous damage that his kind of discourse does to vulnerable people, and so I feel compelled to present the alternative point of view.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Oct 16, 2008 21:20:57 GMT -5
Seeing the title of this thread from the get go, I avoided it figuring it was about those who seem sinless. How right I was. But after reading Ari and Gabe, I cannot help but relate an observation.
I am surrounded by people in this area who pat each other on the back about being sinless. They truly believe they do not commit sin. One is a preacher at the Christian Church. Another started her own church, first suggesting unity of all churches, but that is another discussion. I told the Christian Church preacher that I could no longer attend his church because some of his congregation stated in bible studies that they are sinless. I wondered why they are christians. I still cannot figure it out. Why do they need a savior if they do not sin? From what are they being saved?
He said he understands them and feels similar. Whoa! I could not believe my ears! The preacher of the Christian Church does not sin!? Holy mackerel! All this time I thought jesus was the only one who did not sin. Guess I was wrong. Then I read this thread and saw more sinlessness. Jesus has come! He is in Houston. No, wait! He is in Dallas. No, wait! He is in Kansas City! No, wait! He is in St. Louis! It is true! He is everywhere! Hallelujah! My neighbor is Jesus!
Ridiculous. Today's christian, if a good follower, is sinless. But it is so distorted from what I read in my bible years ago. I read about a guy who wanted people to join him in a pleasant place. And the way to get to that place was by following him. I do not remember reading anything about first attaining sinlessness.
When I was a kid, I used to wonder how a person could avoid sin. If there are just so many sins or categories of sins, then how is a person to go through life without repeating a sin a few thousand times? Causing envy or anything similar that makes your brother uncomfortable is a sin. Without making it all twisted and convenient for yourself, just take it like it says: If you cause your brother to fall or trip, you should be drowned with a millstone around your neck. So I ask you to consider ALL of your movements since the day you were born or born again, whichever is most convenient for you, and write them down (there will be a long list if you are honest). When you have completed your list, consider how many of those movements caused harm to another. Be sure to remember everything that may have caused your brother to stray, wander, slip, or fall. And do not forget things you may have said to one person that may have been overheard by another who ended life.
So is there a purpose to causing people to hate each other? Is Fred Phelps going to have a better seat in your heaven because he hates gays and the military and has a website about it? Do you really believe that god wants you to point out everybody else's sin? What about that verse that says 'before you take the mote out of your brother's eye, you must first take the beam out of your own'? Is that beam ever removed? Is not that the point of that saying? Lending a helping hand is one thing, but chanting at parades and yelling in the faces of those who do not believe in the same manner as you is hardly christ-like.
Am I judging? You better believe it. I have seen people dwindle to nothing or to the brink of death because of bible thumping stupidity. They say god is love but then they bring out the hate and cram it down people's throats even if their audience is suicidal.
Do you know which of your brothers are suicidal? Should we not treat everyone with kid gloves on the off chance that they are not having the best day? Do you really think that all homosexuals woke up one day and decided to be gay and proud of it? Do you suppose that there could be a terrible inner struggle in some of them? Do you really think that threatening people with hell is going to make them say 'aw, gee, shucks, you are right' and change their ways overnight? Do you suppose it is possible that some people have to accept their innerselves in order to live another day? Could it be that accepting themselves the way they are could be the biggest challenge in their lives?
I hear so many christians talk about the end days and they claim they are happening right now. I have news for you. The end days (their definition of it) are a long way off. Why would your god want a bunch of sinless, arrogant people with him?
Words exchanged about biblical beliefs and differences in the public today are not much different than the ongoing war between the Israelites and the Palestinians. Nobody gets anywhere and all of them are absolutely sure they have the best definitions. How could anyone be proud of a warring religion? How can christians or jews proclaim their god is love? Does his love create humans who war and bash?
I have seen more love in gay communities than I have ever seen in religion. Maybe it is because most of them know the hardships of living. I am not talking about living in the suburbs or at work. I am talking about struggling with life decisions because of a constant burden. A life that started out innocent, grew to wonder, and exploded into puzzlement, mystery, disgust, pity, sorrow, pain, wonder, curiosity, and possibly ends up in love. Is that not the greatest of humanity, the ability to love? Should we trample on those who love? Should we despise them because they do not meet our expectations or standards? Is that not a bit petty? If god is love and one person loves another, should you not be happy? 'Nope, they are not loving the way I think they should love.' lol Cracks me up.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 16, 2008 22:54:55 GMT -5
I believe we are fortunate because our Father wants us to succeed and He gives extra credit for effort.
I guess I missed the part about extra credit. My bible states pretty clearly that our effort means nothing if we are living under the grace of God. And I also like Odon. We had some interesting emails when I was first putting him in contact with the workers in his area. I know others like him who feel it is their duty to point out the sins of others, and like him they feel that they are doing the others a big favor. The problem is that it puts him in the position of being a judge of another's sin. We are to be judged as we judge others we read. We are told to love our neighbors we are told. we are told to take care of the beam in our own eye and not point out the speck in another's eye we are told. And yet I see many who feel it is their job to do the judging of others, to focus on others perceived faults over their own, and to claim it is all being done out of love. Well.... more power to you Odon. If you find people ignoring your warnings, not taking you as seriously as you would like, and find that you are constantly in defense of what you have to say, then perhaps you might want to take a look at yourself and see if there is a reason why these things are happening. I actually kind of tuned you out when you made the statement: you will realize on Judgment day that I was the ‘only one’ that truly loved you here.That is one of the most judgmental statements I have ever seen here on the TMB. Scott
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Post by ariandgabe on Oct 17, 2008 6:33:51 GMT -5
Gene Nelson: But on the other hand I know the tremendous damage that his kind of discourse does to vulnerable people, and so I feel compelled to present the alternative point of view.
I read your alternative view point, may God help those that might be influenced to follow it. But it is too late, views like yours are quickly becoming the norm even for Cristianity.
I will continue to pray for the few whos' desires go beyond your (and others here) point of view and definition of LOVE.
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Post by rational on Oct 17, 2008 7:23:32 GMT -5
Part 2 Gene Nelson, Dietcoke and the rest of you, you will realize on Judgment day that I was the ‘only one’ that truly loved you here. Don’t let their kindness fool you guys, their intention is not good. I do really understand your sins, even though you don’t talk about it much, I know what it is to be tormented by them. Wow! That is really a statement that one does not see much. That is material directly from Jonathan Edwards! From what I have seen from your posts so far, you seem to think the bible is inerrant. Is this your belief? Can you support it? Just wondering. When you make such sweeping judgmental statements it raises a lot of questions, including where you derive your authority. You also seem to pick your topics willy-nilly. Are you refraining from all things that god considers an abomination or just a selected few?
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