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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 16, 2008 12:47:21 GMT -5
The moon is made of green cheese. The moon that your astronauts supposedly inspected was in a movie studio and in the desert of the earth. The final answer on that question:
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 16, 2008 12:55:27 GMT -5
I know it is attention getting to use emotionally charged words to describe things (the use/misuse of the word cult comes to mind) but it adds little to the discussion to redefine common words without explicitly explaining your new definition. Agreed, and it is those who say abortion is not murder who are attemppting to redefine the word.
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Post by Murderers on Jun 16, 2008 14:37:37 GMT -5
You forgot Exodus 12:29: And it came to pass that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat upon his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.Seems to me that God doesn't seem to mind a bit of child murder every now and then whether inside the womb or out ... so what are we worrying about. He even seems to revel in it. This does not say "I shall not kill." Just "Thou shalt not kill." Every life belongs to God, and it is His to take. That is not true for us, and it is not true for a mother who wants to kill her unborn child. Grateful for Grace Your response baffles me entirely; are you suggesting that good and evil is determined solely by what God says rather than what He does? Is God in fact a hypocrite? It appears to be fine by you for God to torture and murder an innocent child but it's not ok if a mother aborts her baby - hmm! I presume then that it's not the torture and murder of children per se that you have a problem with, but the fact that anyone other than God doing it runs contrary to your interpretation of what God is supposed to have said four thousand years ago? Is it corrrect that you don't actually mind the bloody massacre of babies providing God is doing it? Perhaps you can clear up my bafflement: Do you or do you not think it is wrong for God to carry out the sadistic torture and murder of innocent children? Do you condemn it or support it? And would you be prepared to offer up your own child to satisfy His sadistic craving for the destruction of human life?
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 16, 2008 16:22:52 GMT -5
It is impossible, by definition, for anything God does to be wrong. He is the absolute standard of rightness and truth. All other truth comes from Him. Without Him there would be no morality. He is also the owner of the universe and everything in it. The master of all other beings. He has the right to do as He chooses, regardless of some human's opinion of His actions.
All men have sinned and the wages of sin are death. All men deserve death. However, God has chosen to extend the option of mercy and this purpose He sent His Son to die for our sins and save us from death. Nothing obligated Him to do so. He desired to do so, so He did.
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Post by gratefulforgrace on Jun 16, 2008 20:30:11 GMT -5
I sincerely hope that you can come to understand the love and power and sovereignty of God. Your response baffles me entirely; are you suggesting that good and evil is determined solely by what God says rather than what He does? Is God in fact a hypocrite? Nothing that God says contradicts what He does, and nothing He does contradicts what He says. All life belongs to God. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Life does not belong to us. We have no right to take the life of another person, which life belongs to God, and is a gift from God to that person. God has every right to take a life. We have no place to question His reasons, but we can trust that He does have reasons for all that He does, that work for the good of the Kingdom. And a human death is not always bad. For God's children, it is the beginning of eternal life. Someone is not innocent just because he is a child. Nothing that God does is sadistic. His Will is best. Best for the Kingdom, and best for us. Come unto him, and you will not care for your earthly life. Job's words are beautiful... We can say this, because it is not our natural life that has meaning and value, and we trust in His Will, and look forward to an eternity with our Lord.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jun 16, 2008 23:47:35 GMT -5
Whew. Say or believe what you must. If my wife/girlfriend/female-whatever wanted an abortion, go for it. It is her right as a human being on the face of the earth. If christians decide they must slay her for her decision, they would have to get past my weaponry. She has the right because she is the carrier.
This argument reminds me of spilling seed. I guess masturbators are hell-bound since they are preventing life. I will have plenty of company.
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Post by gratefulforgrace on Jun 16, 2008 23:55:18 GMT -5
Whew. Say or believe what you must. If my wife/girlfriend/female-whatever wanted an abortion, go for it. It is her right as a human being on the face of the earth. If christians decide they must slay her for her decision, they would have to get past my weaponry. She has the right because she is the carrier. This argument reminds me of spilling seed. I guess masturbators are hell-bound since they are preventing life. I will have plenty of company. Big difference between just the seed and a fertilized egg. And I don't think I've said women who have had abortions should be killed. I think what they are doing is wrong. That doesn't mean I want to kill anybody!
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 17, 2008 1:01:36 GMT -5
Whew. Say or believe what you must. If Christians decide they must slay your wife/girlfriend/female-whatever for her decision, go for it. It is their right as human beings on the face of the earth. If you decide you must slay them for their decision, you would have to get past their weaponry. They have the right because they are the observers.
[Christians would not likely decide this, as such. It is a case that should be prosecuted officially through the court system. Then you'd be facing the weaponry of the government...]
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 6:43:26 GMT -5
hmm, U mean like skewed statistics? 30% of atheistic people have lower morals than 20 % of theistic people? or 5% of theistic people have higher morals than 20% of atheses? Actually, I was hoping you had some facts to back up your assertion. I am sure there are ways to look into this. I guess the question you are asking is whether morality is subjective or objective. Let us suppose now that murder is wrong. And the theist says it is wrong because God condemns it. In this case, God has no reason to condemn murder. Because he condemns it, murder is wrong. This means it would not be wrong if God did not condemned it. The flip side says not murdering someone would be wrong if God condemned not murdering. However, this doesn't provide objective grounds for condemning murder. Murder, right or wrong, is be based on god's arbitrary condemnation. Perhaps morality is subjective.
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 6:49:27 GMT -5
I know it is attention getting to use emotionally charged words to describe things (the use/misuse of the word cult comes to mind) but it adds little to the discussion to redefine common words without explicitly explaining your new definition. Agreed, and it is those who say abortion is not murder who are attemppting to redefine the word. No, I am still waiting for you to show a biblical reference where it is pointed out that abortion is unlawful. We all know that the punishment for murder in the bible was death. Yet the punishment for causing an abortion was not a criminal offense but a civil offense where the punishment was decided by the husband. It is clear that the unborn child was considered to be property. You have decided abortion is murder without showing why.
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Post by y iz on Jun 17, 2008 7:04:19 GMT -5
Murder, right or wrong, is be based on god's arbitrary condemnation. Perhaps morality is subjective. Interesting . I will analyize : ''subjectivity'' and get back to you! I just caught this post as I was leaving . good question, The first part of your post deals with whether or not god/God permits/lets us human beings ''interfering'' with his place, (the giver/creator and taker of life) , I have no problem accepting his ''author-ity'' on this issue, for me, although people that do not believe God created them, likely do not think God has a plan/purpose/ for the alloted ''time'' he gives us on this earth, to accomplish what he wants us to, and if we don't accomplish what he plans ....does he have the ''right'' to be disappointed? , perhaps he does (but I find that he can even be sympathetic to 'doubters', right?) ?
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 7:10:36 GMT -5
It is impossible, by definition, for anything God does to be wrong. There are times where god changed his mind (Exodus 32:12-14). We can only assume the change was the result in the first choice being in error. Of course, saying something is impossible for an omnipotent and omniscient being is problematic as well. Not even considering the ramifications of limiting the power of god. So you are saying that all morals come from god and that without a god there are no morals? Odd that the moral code wouldn't be the same worldwide and is so culturally dependent today. Well, until s/he can produce a deed we will just have to take your word for it. Well, this makes sense. One individual eats a piece of fruit and billions are sentenced to death. But think of the crowd of people if everyone lived for ever.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 17, 2008 8:31:27 GMT -5
There are times where god changed his mind (Exodus 32:12-14). We can only assume the change was the result in the first choice being in error. You might assume that, but that would be incorrect. If what is right is defined by Him, then what He did would have been right in either case. So your assumption contradicts the premise (which you implicitly accepted as a premise when you said "we can only assume ..."). You mean like saying it's impossible for Him to do wrong? That's a silly argument, considering that the impossibility stems from the definition of right and wrong. One could also say it's impossible for him not to do wrong, but that's absurd. There are no problems with saying things like that, which depend on definitions, are "impossible". Those "impossibilities" do not limit His power -- they flow from Him. Yes, that is true. The moral code is the same worldwide and is not culturally dependent today. Again, you're contradicting the premise. If the premise is that true morality derives from God, then you cannot also assume that moral code is different all over the world. The difference lies in man who does not fully comprehend, or refuses to obey, the moral code.
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 9:49:26 GMT -5
You might assume that, but that would be incorrect. If what is right is defined by Him, then what He did would have been right in either case. So your assumption contradicts the premise (which you implicitly accepted as a premise when you said "we can only assume ..."). Nope - making the assumption does not imply I accept your premise. In Exodus 32:12-14 God made two decisions. They are contradictory. Can you explain? Since you seem to be basing your argument on the definition of right and wrong - are you saying that to avoid the impossibility issue you will just change the definition of 'wrong'? That is exactly what I mean. You are saying there are things that god cannot do. I will agree it is as foolish as asking if god could make a mass so large he could not move it. But none the less. You have made such a statement in saying there is something that is impossible for god to accomplish. I am contradicting your premise because you are failing to support it and I do not believe it is true. I am not assuming the moral code is different in different cultures I am stating it is. It is observable. Back to the questions you have failed to answer. Where in the bible does it state that causing the abortion of a fetus is murder? How do you explain the fact that the bible proscribes punishment for those who cause an abortion to be very different from those who murdered?
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Post by ghost on Jun 17, 2008 9:54:19 GMT -5
It is impossible, by definition, for anything God does to be wrong. He is the absolute standard of rightness and truth. All other truth comes from Him. Without Him there would be no morality. He is also the owner of the universe and everything in it. The master of all other beings. He has the right to do as He chooses, regardless of some human's opinion of His actions. All men have sinned and the wages of sin are death. All men deserve death. However, God has chosen to extend the option of mercy and this purpose He sent His Son to die for our sins and save us from death. Nothing obligated Him to do so. He desired to do so, so He did. If God is so strong and omniscient, why he has never spoken directly to men and women but does so only via intermediaries - who happen to ALWAYS have their own vested interests in mind (control, power, exploitation, etc. etc.). Your God is an entirely human mental construction to which you have attributed all the imaginary characteristics you wished.
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Post by Murderers on Jun 17, 2008 11:58:03 GMT -5
I sincerely hope that you can come to understand the love and power and sovereignty of God. Your response baffles me entirely; are you suggesting that good and evil is determined solely by what God says rather than what He does? Is God in fact a hypocrite? Nothing that God says contradicts what He does, and nothing He does contradicts what He says. All life belongs to God. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Life does not belong to us. We have no right to take the life of another person, which life belongs to God, and is a gift from God to that person. God has every right to take a life. We have no place to question His reasons, but we can trust that He does have reasons for all that He does, that work for the good of the Kingdom. And a human death is not always bad. For God's children, it is the beginning of eternal life. Someone is not innocent just because he is a child. Nothing that God does is sadistic. His Will is best. Best for the Kingdom, and best for us. Come unto him, and you will not care for your earthly life. Job's words are beautiful... We can say this, because it is not our natural life that has meaning and value, and we trust in His Will, and look forward to an eternity with our Lord. Gratefulforgrace An interesting response, albeit a ridiculous one. Not only do you fail to respond to the questions put to you (by me or by others), your arguments are weak and confusing to the extent that I seriously wonder whether you understand your own position, never mind that of those of us holding much less self indulgent positions. You appear to be saying that what we may consider evil is not in fact evil if carried out by God, or in his will. Murder, infanticide, famine, plague, child molestation and abortion are all righteous acts in your mad little world providing they are carried out in God's will. I presume you have a sneaking admiration then for those strapping little rucksacks to their backs and flying airplanes into high rise buildings in the name of God - do you go along to gloat over the clean up operation afterwards? I presume you secretly smile with satisfaction every time a US soldier is gunned down by the Taliban in an act carried out in accordance with God's will - do you write to his mother afterwards telling her the will of God is good? Is there nothing you will stop at, no line in the sand beyond which you will not go before you would consider God may be wrong? If God told you to do it, would you actively engage in the burning of homosexuals?
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Post by GFG on Jun 17, 2008 15:14:10 GMT -5
An interesting response, albeit a ridiculous one. Not only do you fail to respond to the questions put to you (by me or by others), your arguments are weak and confusing to the extent that I seriously wonder whether you understand your own position, never mind that of those of us holding much less self indulgent positions. I believe I answered the questions, and I do not believe my answers were weak and confusing. If you're going to make an accusation like this, be specific. Murder, infanticide, child molestation, and abortion are all the acts of human, and they are not righteous. I do not admire suicide bombers. I have never smiled with satisfaction, or smiled at all, at the death of anyone. God has already commanded me not to kill. I will keep that commandment.
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 15:27:56 GMT -5
Murder, infanticide, child molestation, and abortion are all the acts of human, and they are not righteous. 1Samuel15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.Isn't this a commandment of god? Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.Killing misbehaving children? Suppose god told you the above as he did in 1 Samuel. Would you do as he said? Would you follow his commandment as far as killing your children if they curse you?
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Post by GFG on Jun 17, 2008 15:45:23 GMT -5
1Samuel15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.Isn't this a commandment of god? Obviously it is. There are no instances of God telling someone to kill someone after the coming of Christ, however. This is a misrepresentation of this. It doesn't say, He that curseth his father, or his mother, kill him. It says, "shall surely be put to death." This could even be referring to eternal death (after natural death) - and if it refers to natural death, it could refer to a death not by murder. I do not believe this is something that will happen. I wish, in all things, to obey the law of the Lord. I hope that is a purpose that would not fail me in trying times. The Will of God is best for all things, however it may seem to us, as humans who cannot see the "big picture" or through all time.
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Post by bump on Jun 17, 2008 15:55:36 GMT -5
Murder, infanticide, child molestation, and abortion are all the acts of human, and they are not righteous. 1Samuel15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.Isn't this a commandment of god? Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.Killing misbehaving children? as he did in 1 Samuel. Would you do as he said? his commandment as far as killing your children if they curse you? If Israel , was still in its infancy, and the law of the land was the voice of God, then it would be essential to obey his voice, but as history bears out, Israel wanted a human king, and through the history of the Hebrews, they practically admit that it was a foolish experience, and to this DAY, they await a messiah, that will save them from their poor choices/dilemna they are currently suffering through, it is sad to see the plight of the Hebrew, and yet their was sent their messiah, but few Hebrew recognized him? If they would have, then, history would be different, yet, if one reads their history/scriptures can we know if we could've known more than their scribes? It all looks like foolishness in the sight of the world's scholars, but then that too is to be expected? but for anyone to know truth about truth, we can only know as much as we experience, right?
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Post by y iz on Jun 17, 2008 16:15:21 GMT -5
Murder, right or wrong, is be based on god's arbitrary condemnation. Perhaps morality is subjective. whether or not god/God permits/lets us human beings ''interfering'' with his place, (the giver/creator and taker of life) , I have no problem accepting his ''author-ity'' on this issue, for me, although people that do not believe God created them, In my so humble opinion, all morals are designed by God, to help us live a 'wholesome' life. Moral is a good word, this word comes from the Logos {Logic,Word, God} whether or not you believe that is crucial to understanding the created world, and language, enlight-ment , etc. God permits(lets) us understand words , and the highly intelligent words, come from theistic view of God/Logos , and creates logic in the uni-versal realm. with morals, comes the understanding of right and just living/life. If we have poor morals, our morale is poor, and our life is 'lifeless'. Yes, I know you do not agree with this, but please explain why atheists prefer subjective morality, when there is no purpose in living, except to die? Who is the judge of right living {defined as morals}, except for a consciousness of a Moral Guide given us by our creator? right?
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 16:30:50 GMT -5
Obviously it is. There are no instances of God telling someone to kill someone after the coming of Christ, however. You are changing the rules. You said that god would never do this. You are grasping at straws. "..surely be put to death." doesn't really lend itself to being a natural death. Or an eternal death. Exodus 21 is filled with a lot of rules and tells who should be put to death and when you should stone an ox. Verse 12 talks about men killing men and they too shall surely be put to death. I don't think it was talking about anything other than capital punishment. I think the question is - would you kill women and children if god said to?
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Post by rational on Jun 17, 2008 16:42:31 GMT -5
In my so humble opinion, all morals are designed by God, to help us live a 'wholesome' life. Any explanation as to why morals are not universal? from Latin mōrālis
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Post by y iz on Jun 17, 2008 21:20:33 GMT -5
In my so humble opinion, all morals are designed by God, to help us live a 'wholesome' life. Any explanation as to why morals are not universal? Why do U think they aren't? morals are a universal consciousness that teaches us to do right. Wrong thoughts fester into immorality, and an unwholesome lifestyle. Morals are the ''reasons'' why we do what we do. Morals rarely condemn an action, only the motive for the action, in my so humble opinion. I think there could be a good reason to do just about anything, but that isn't the point, because in our human society, we haven't established a method of judging right motives, although the court system does give defendants a chance to state their case, yet, if the offender is 'lying' about his motives, then we can only attempt to judge as a good lawyer would, sometimes with mercy, and sometimes without mercy/
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Post by y iz on Jun 17, 2008 21:29:32 GMT -5
hmm, when and where did the Latin's get the concept/word moralis? I find it interesting that we human beings try to make language much more complicated than it needs to be, certainly at one time, we all must have spoken the same language, or is there some profound reason that ''moralis'' wasn't a good enough word for those Anglos up north, .. oh well, it keep people employed doing language translations, right? ok then!
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Post by ghostbuster on Jun 18, 2008 4:18:58 GMT -5
If God is so strong and omniscient, why he has never spoken directly to men and women but does so only via intermediaries - who happen to ALWAYS have their own vested interests in mind (control, power, exploitation, etc. etc.). Your God is an entirely human mental construction to which you have attributed all the imaginary characteristics you wished. roflmao. your anti-theism is a manifestation of your unconscious desire to destroy your father. Maybe he treated your mother badly or beat you a bit hard but that's all it is. you're projecting your hate of your father onto God.
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Post by busted ghost on Jun 18, 2008 4:27:22 GMT -5
roflmao. your anti-theism is a manifestation of your unconscious desire to destroy your father. Maybe he treated your mother badly or beat you a bit hard but that's all it is. you're projecting your hate of your father onto God.
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Post by ghost on Jun 18, 2008 7:31:41 GMT -5
If God is so strong and omniscient, why he has never spoken directly to men and women but does so only via intermediaries - who happen to ALWAYS have their own vested interests in mind (control, power, exploitation, etc. etc.). Your God is an entirely human mental construction to which you have attributed all the imaginary characteristics you wished. roflmao. your anti-theism is a manifestation of your unconscious desire to destroy your father. Maybe he treated your mother badly or beat you a bit hard but that's all it is. you're projecting your hate of your father onto God. HA HA HA ! However, those that beleive in the existence of God have still to prove their point. Those that do not believe in such an existemce have nothing to prove! You do not need proof for something that does not exist. Gostbuster, you must do better next time. As for the subject of this thread, i.e. contraception, it look as if the workers who do have sexual intercourse practice it rather well, with some exceptions however (see Paul Schloep and others)
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