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Post by rational on Jun 18, 2008 7:39:28 GMT -5
hmm, when and where did the Latin's get the concept/word moralis? The Latino-Faliscan languages were all used in the region. At some point someone needed to talk about morals and coined the word. No one said it wasn't good enough. Languages evolve just like everything else. It may well be that at one time there was a single language but it is doubtful that it is the root of many words used today. If you are really interested look into the Indo-European language family. If you think there was a single root language you need to explain the relationship. Japanese, the Aleut languages, the 200+ Indigenous Australian languages, etc. Of course - there is the Tower of Babel myth to explain it! Better than just making up things to support your current argument.
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Post by ghostbuster on Jun 18, 2008 7:40:10 GMT -5
HA HA HA ! However, those that beleive in the existence of God have still to prove their point. Those that do not believe in such an existemce have nothing to prove! You do not need proof for something that does not exist. Gostbuster, you must do better next time. hey, I'm not trying to prove God. I'm letting you in on a secret. a bit of psychotherapy will sort out your oedipal desire to kill your father and chase your mother. That's what it is you know. Stop worrying about other people believing in God and go sort out your own desires. Could be, could be. Hope so. pity the poor kids if any of em got preggers.
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Post by rational on Jun 18, 2008 8:47:11 GMT -5
Why do U think they aren't? morals are a universal consciousness that teaches us to do right. What are you feelings on slavery? Do they match those presented in the bible? How about the selling your daughters? I think these are moral issues that don't seem to be universal even today. Prostitution? Do you have an example of what you mean?
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Post by ghost on Jun 18, 2008 10:08:40 GMT -5
hey, I'm not trying to prove God. I'm letting you in on a secret. a bit of psychotherapy will sort out your oedipal desire to kill your father and chase your mother. That's what it is you know. Stop worrying about other people believing in God and go sort out your own desires. I replied on the following initial statement : It is impossible, by definition, for anything God does to be wrong. He is the absolute standard of rightness and truth. All other truth comes from Him. Without Him there would be no morality. He is also the owner of the universe and everything in it. The master of all other beings. He has the right to do as He chooses, regardless of some human's opinion of His actions. All men have sinned and the wages of sin are death. All men deserve death. However, God has chosen to extend the option of mercy and this purpose He sent His Son to die for our sins and save us from death. Nothing obligated Him to do so. He desired to do so, so He did. Now you, ghostbuster, having lost so many years of your life with psychotherapists who believe in another God (Freud) see everywhere Oedipuses (or should I say Oedipenises). Go get a life man, go get a life ...
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Post by ghostbuster on Jun 18, 2008 18:57:52 GMT -5
Now you, ghostbuster, having lost so many years of your life with psychotherapists who believe in another God (Freud) see everywhere Oedipuses (or should I say Oedipenises). Go get a life man, go get a life ... no, no, no. You're not getting it. I don't need psychotherapy and I've never had it. But son, you sure do. You talked about God being a projection but my friend, that's all you're doing. You're projecting your desires to destroy your father and concluding there's no God, in a kind of twisted projectionist way you've succeeded because now you really think there is no God. You really would benefit. i guess your father was also heavily authoritarian and that would explain your rejection of religion too, the desire to kill a primary authority in your early life.
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Post by y iz on Jun 18, 2008 21:38:14 GMT -5
Why do U think they aren't? morals are a universal consciousness that teaches us to do right. What are you feelings on slavery? Do they match those presented in the bible? How about the selling your daughters? I think these are moral issues that don't seem to be universal even today. Prostitution? Do you have an example of what you mean? the whole idea of nhaving this discussion, is to present differing arguements . Now all we need is to be content with the choice of morals that we practice. If you aren't content, then find the morals that cause you to live a wholesome life, but if you purpose is not to live a wholesome life (who decides what is wholesome, eh? ), then this discussion is a vain attempt to further enlighten one another, and I fear that the light we have wrought might not be enough light to get us to see how blind we both are, in fact right now I canbarelyseethekeyboarrrt5#&k whatever
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jun 19, 2008 0:19:34 GMT -5
Many have found the morals they prefer. The problem is that they believe everyone else should have the same prejudices. Just because one believes abortion is evil does not mean everyone should comply to that person's beliefs. Same goes for homosexual marriage. Why does anyone care what motivates another to love? If two men love each other the same as a man and woman, let them be. Are they causing pain to you somehow? No. Are they calling you every night for a foursome? No. Do the two gay men curse you for your straight marriage and hope to deny you marital rights? No. Do they wish to have sex with you? No.
Because people do not wish a certain lifestyle for themselves, they expect the rest of the world to believe as they do and live as they do. Those people are ignorant. How many times have you heard people say they wish they could 'line 'em all up and shoot 'em'? Let's do that with everyone who is straight and anti-abortion. What's the difference?
Enjoy your breakfast.
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Post by ghost on Jun 19, 2008 2:15:44 GMT -5
no, no, no. You're not getting it. I don't need psychotherapy and I've never had it. But son, you sure do. You talked about God being a projection but my friend, that's all you're doing. You're projecting your desires to destroy your father and concluding there's no God, in a kind of twisted projectionist way you've succeeded because now you really think there is no God. You really would benefit. i guess your father was also heavily authoritarian and that would explain your rejection of religion too, the desire to kill a primary authority in your early life. If you never had psychotherapy how do you know it is a good thing for others? And how do you (mis)quote psychotherapeutic theories about my supposedly autoritarian father and my supposed desire to kill authority? I gather you are a typical 2x2 who believes in whatever the «full of authority» so called «workers» have to say. Use your brain man, use your brain! And go get a life!
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Post by y iz on Jun 19, 2008 3:36:14 GMT -5
What are you feelings on slavery? I personally (and could argue) that 'some' forms of slavery are absolutely 'out of this world', and a much happier existance than living a life without a 'slave-master'. {objective/subjective = meaning that one persons treasure is another persons trash...., yet it doesn't mean that someones trash, might actually be trash, and anothers treasure, might actually be a real treasure. thus moralis, even though some might consider moralis to be subjective, in the same sense that they are real/objective.Do they match those presented in the bible? yes, because the bible presents moralis as both objective and subjective , just as I attemptted / How about the selling your daughters? hmmm, can you tell me the objective difference between selling your daughter, and receiving a gift in exchange for permission to a marriage vow/ ( ? ) essentially the same concept, I get the gift, you get my daughter, and YES, sometimes this would be a very wonderful thing, and especially if you know who you are 'selling' your daughter to, if you do not know that youre both going to bennifit from the 'exchange' and live truly better, then I miss the point, and there always is a ''point'', {purpose} to 'everything under the sun' . The 'point' of the symbolism in selling out your daughter, could be that you have no choices left, and 'daughters were considered, both subjective and objective property of the father, thus symbolically a father could sell their daughters, wheather or not we agree with that concept, at this point has been outlawed in western nations {in the objective sense, anyways, but still many fathers symbolically ''sell/throw'' their children/daughters to the world's worldly careless life-style, and often that life-style is void of moralis, eh?}I think these are moral issues that don't seem to be universal even today. Prostitution? I don't think this issue is any different today than it was then--extremely controversial, and the virtues of becoming a prostitute, are extremely limited, but at some point, an objective mind will do what it has to to survive, but symbolically, when we sell our body, we are hurting somewhere, perhaps both moralis-wise, and financially, right? {hey, why should I expect you to ever agree with me ;D } ok then!Do you have an example of what you mean? the whole idea of having this discussion, is to present differing arguements . Now all we need is to be content with the choice of moralis that we practice.
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Post by ghostbuster on Jun 19, 2008 5:32:58 GMT -5
If you never had psychotherapy how do you know it is a good thing for others? And how do you (mis)quote psychotherapeutic theories about my supposedly autoritarian father and my supposed desire to kill authority? I gather you are a typical 2x2 who believes in whatever the «full of authority» so called «workers» have to say. Use your brain man, use your brain! And go get a life! oooh touchy but you're wrong on all counts. You need to see someone, your aggression is starting to manifest towards others.
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Post by ghost on Jun 19, 2008 8:43:49 GMT -5
If I am wrong how much more is your wrong !!!
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Post by rational on Jun 19, 2008 9:05:55 GMT -5
Maybe I should restate the original question.
Your claim was that all morals are from god.
Slavery and selling one's daughter are morally acceptable in the bible.
Do you agree?
Your example of a gift in exchange for permission to marry a daughter falls flat. There is a difference in giving permission (which is not required for marrying adults)and transferring ownership of a human being.
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Post by y me on Jun 19, 2008 9:29:43 GMT -5
Maybe I should restate the original question. Your claim was that all morals are from god. Yes, as is our language(s).Slavery and selling one's daughter are morally acceptable in the bible. Do you agree? I tried to answer that already, ...in our society, we subjectively sell off things we do not wish to keep, but objectively---our courts of law do not allow the practice, {if it can be proved that it was done} . If I sell my daughter to my cousin in Hawaii, for $1 million , would I be guilty of some crime? (oh ya, professional baseball players are bought and sold all the time ;D)
Would I sell my daughter, hmmmm, or would I accept a gift, if I allow you to marry her, ...is this splitting hairs, ?? I cannot say that I wouldn't under all circumstanses, could you? But most likely I would have to believe and trust that her 'morale' is also considered part of this transaction? So , technically, I cannot imagine that it would ever happen, but I do not want to be hypocritical about how I might 'symbolically]sell off a friend/relative over even some disagreement/arguement. {{hey, I have been offered 2 cents to reliquish my rights to a quit claim deed of you, and I am seriously considering it! ;D just kidding}}
Ya, quit claim deeds can make life very interesting, but not very rewarding, right?Your example of a gift in exchange for permission to marry a daughter falls flat. There is a difference in giving permission (which is not required for marrying adults)and transferring ownership of a human being. Again, depends on how MY court upholds my 'quit claim' rights to owning my children. Yes, they can be sold, imho. , but then again I cannot forsee me thinking that would be in their best interests, but I can see that as I would judge some parents should certainly consider this option, perhaps Texas compound for one. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Post by rational on Jun 19, 2008 10:19:10 GMT -5
You are spinning in the wind. Your statement was that all morals were from god. That would make them universal. In the bible we learn that slavery was considered moral by god. As was selling your daughter. Do you agree with this moral stance? Don't start with society and of a lot of other words to cloud the answer. Not really asking about the courts or what "could" be done. It is a question of your claim that all morality comes from god and what you consider to be moral behavior. Don't care about what you think would be in their best interests. In the bible god gave the law and selling a daughter was one of the morally acceptable things he defined. The question is: Do you think selling your daughter to another is morally correct?
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Post by y me on Jun 19, 2008 19:12:33 GMT -5
You are spinning in the wind. Your statement was that all morals were from god. That would make them universal. In the bible we learn that slavery was considered moral by god. As was selling your daughter. Do you agree with this moral stance? Don't start with society and of a lot of other words to cloud the answer. Not really asking about the courts or what "could" be done. It is a question of your claim that all morality comes from god and what you consider to be moral behavior. Don't care about what you think would be in their best interests. In the bible god gave the law and selling a daughter was one of the morally acceptable things he defined. The question is: Do you think selling your daughter to another is morally correct? morals is defined as using ''good judgement''.
Even though ''good judgement'' might also be hard to define, so would ''good morals'', even though, at a time and place , there anything can happen . You call using discernment according to the situation, ''spinning in the wind'', well, aren't we all getting a bit dizzy in this together.
Even though truth doesn't change, it is always changing....{the only constant in this world is a changing } I could say the average daytime temperature in my county is 57.4 degrees F., and that would be true, but hardly ever would it be an actual temperature, our temperatures vary significantly with the seasons, etc.
So I will tell you that if Moses sells his daughter, is that a matter of morals, or is it a matter of custom? If it is not a matter of custom, then people might consider it immoral--to some degree/sometimes/or perhaps most of the time, but as we are fast learning, we hardly can dictate what customs others should be prohibited from endulging in, right?
Oh, by the way, are you , also, ''spinning'' ?
this question of morality can never be the same for two people, yet good morals will result in good morale, and as Jesus said, 'wisdom is justified by her children/{what she produces} '. right?
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Post by rational on Jun 19, 2008 22:24:19 GMT -5
morals is defined as using ''good judgement''. Where is it so defined? I looked and here is the first definition from a couple of dictionaries: moral – adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character. A couple of points: 1. this is not really the definition of morals. 2. This does not answer the question. You stated all morals come from god. Now you say morals are "good judgement" meaning it is an individual choice. God is on record in the bible of saying slavery and selling one's daughter is not immoral. Simple question - Do you agree? [quite]Even though truth doesn't change, it is always changing....{the only constant in this world is a changing } I could say the average daytime temperature in my county is 57.4 degrees F., and that would be true, but hardly ever would it be an actual temperature, our temperatures vary significantly with the seasons, etc.[/quote] The average temperature, or the fluctuation thereof, is not the question here. Any reason why you are failing to support your assertion that all morals come from god? No matter what it is a matter of, god approved, no commanded, it. Or do you think he would approve an immoral act? Back to the point - it was god's laws and not the custom of the people that is on record. Nope. Just trying to get you to support your statement that all morals come from god. I am not talking about average temperatures or the customs of the day or what the courts might rule. That would be you. If all morality is from god, as you stated, how can it be different for different people? Different gods? Different rules for different people? I think you need to look into exactly what that quote means.
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Post by y me on Jun 19, 2008 23:16:07 GMT -5
Yep, good morals, and all good things come from god! even our living language, that is so profound that we can communicate with people all over the world, move my fingers around on a keyboard, and watch someone somewhere think I am spinning something? all I am doing is 'keyboarding' some random letters, that seem to get lost in transmission somewhere, I perceive I am caught up in a 'do-loop' , and I do think my head is hurting, cause someone takes my spinning and spins it the other way....whewee gotta take a break for now, maybe tommorrow I will feel like untangling the web you wove for me! Ok then! ;D
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Post by rational on Jun 20, 2008 0:54:06 GMT -5
Yep, good morals, and all good things come from god! even our living language, that is so profound that we can communicate with people all over the world, move my fingers around on a keyboard, and watch someone somewhere think I am spinning something? all I am doing is 'keyboarding' some random letters, that seem to get lost in transmission somewhere, I perceive I am caught up in a 'do-loop' , and I do think my head is hurting, cause someone takes my spinning and spins it the other way....whewee gotta take a break for now, maybe tommorrow I will feel like untangling the web you wove for me! Ok then! ;D More spinning. You are trying very hard to complicate this. My question was simple. Do you accept the morality of the OT, namely slavery and selling one's daughter?
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 10:32:12 GMT -5
Yep, good morals, and all good things come from god! even our living language, that is so profound that we can communicate with people all over the world, move my fingers around on a keyboard, and watch someone somewhere think I am spinning something? all I am doing is 'keyboarding' some random letters, that seem to get lost in transmission somewhere, I perceive I am caught up in a 'do-loop' , and I do think my head is hurting, cause someone takes my spinning and spins it the other way....whewee gotta take a break for now, maybe tommorrow I will feel like untangling the web you wove for me! Ok then! ;D More spinning. You are trying very hard to complicate this. My question was simple. Do you accept the morality of the OT, namely slavery and selling one's daughter? Ok, NOW that is a trick question!
Yes, perhaps it was/is still moral >.
The problem comes if our society perceives it as bad/evil,
as I believe the NT teaching/doctrine implies a ''higher'' code than our human ''law''. If I was to consider that those issues were somewhat illegal in concept or perceived as ''bad'' manners/culture {crude?}...
then it would be something that we should avoid doing, for the sake of those that cannot accept that all things do work together for good ...{to those that are 'believers}
so, even though in my conscious/moral , I would have no problem with buying slaves (or daughters), because I feel confident that my morals would inspire me to make their lives better than they were. perhaps spending $20,000 to adopt someone elses 'daughter' from a third world country. then after I helped educate her, I could 'turn her free' to do what she wanted, and this would be an example of doing exactly what you are describing, just calling the rose a rose, by a different name does not mean it isn't a rose {that is what spinning is, imo}
And, using another scripture, we find that sometimes 'slaves' do not wish to leave their masters, thus , perchance they are given their freedom, I understand that they could have their ear marked, and could be a servant for aye. {is that like an endentured servant?}
so in theory, I do agree, but in practicality, I find that giving the same privledges to immoral people, as to moral people, I see a huge problem, as we find that given the chance immoral people will ''abuse'' their privledges, not always though, but that is why we have to have a human court to decide some of these issues (fraud?) ok, then?
''oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive, eh? '' {sorry I can't remember who should be credited for that quote. }
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 10:41:01 GMT -5
so, to summarize, it really isn't the actions that are 'infact' immoral, but the reality of abusing the situation, that makes it immoral, {PEOPLE are immoral, not things!}
But in our society, we have a ''human''code of law that we are guided by, and if we break these laws, we are considered ''immoral'' by the standard of the human law.
Well, even Daniel was thrown into the lions den, for doing the immoral action of praying to his god. so, some people are called immoral, when they are very moral--in the eyes of god, who is the judge of all true morality/morals. Ok, then
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Post by rational on Jun 20, 2008 15:04:11 GMT -5
Ok, NOW that is a trick question! Yes, perhaps it was/is still moral >. The problem comes if our society perceives it as bad/evil, as I believe the NT teaching/doctrine implies a ''higher'' code than our human ''law''. If I was to consider that those issues were somewhat illegal in concept or perceived as ''bad'' manners/culture {crude?}... Still spinning in the wind I see. It really doesn't matter if our society perceives it as bad/evil. This is just another one of your diversions. It is the same question as before. Do you consider it to be moral. It sounds very much like you are getting your moral code from society and not god. Wow. You think it is moral to buy and sell people because you are going to make their lives better. So in your mind, the ends satisfy the means. Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli would have been so proud of you. Spending $20,000 for the adoption process does not mean that you have bought that person. And you cannot sell them either. At least not legally. Nope, an indentured servant is someone who is working off their debt by becoming a 'slave' until the debt is satisfied. The bible sees no immorality in slavery. The question is - do you think owning slaves is moral? Courts do not decide moral issues. They decide legal issues. I have no idea what you are agreeing to. In principle or actuality. Sir Walter Scott
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 18:06:08 GMT -5
Ok, NOW that is a trick question! Yes, perhaps it was/is still moral >. The problem comes if our society perceives it as bad/evil, as I believe the NT teaching/doctrine implies a ''higher'' code than our human ''law''. If I was to consider that those issues were somewhat illegal in concept or perceived as ''bad'' manners/culture {crude?}... Still spinning in the wind I see. It really doesn't matter if our society perceives it as bad/evil. This is just another one of your diversions. It is the same question as before. Do you consider it to be moral. It sounds very much like you are getting your moral code from society and not god. Wow. You think it is moral to buy and sell people because you are going to make their lives better. So in your mind, the ends satisfy the means. Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli would have been so proud of you. Spending $20,000 for the adoption process does not mean that you have bought that person. And you cannot sell them either. At least not legally. Nope, an indentured servant is someone who is working off their debt by becoming a 'slave' until the debt is satisfied. The bible sees no immorality in slavery. The question is - do you think owning slaves is moral? Courts do not decide moral issues. They decide legal issues. You certainly like to spin my analysis, very well, so I summarized it in the next post, and yet you refer to the post that I keyboarded from scratch (not editted) I should have editted it, so that you could understand it better. sorry
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 18:18:10 GMT -5
It looks as though we need to get the original text, so we don't get confused about what is meant/implied/ interpreted by the terms : slaves, servants, ownership, selling, etc, etc
Most parents, are considered responsible for their ''own'' children, so does that mean they ''own'' their children? yes and no
I can receive a monetary compensation if I allow you to ''fully adopt/own'' my children, but for the sake of morality, we will not call that gift, a ''purchase price'', even though I have to pay he ''price''. ?Does ''selling'' your daughter, mean that you will get some form of compensation? (US dollars, Euro dollars, yen , wang, grub, food, a good slap in the face! ;D) ya, it could be the small print needs to be read before signing your daughters life away, eh?
You know that morality is not defined by an action, but by the interpretation (either by legal court, or devine court) ...
no sense making a longer post, since you are intent to disagree, anyways, eh? ;D
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 18:27:48 GMT -5
Probably one of the most immoral acts that can be done, is ''murder''.
Yet, in our human courts, we find lawyers, that are intent on justifying the murder, because of some reason(s)
does that make ''murder'' less immoral, or does it mean the cause for it, is elevated to more moral,?
That doesn't mean that morality is subjective, but that it needs to be dealt with in case by case, and that is precisely why I disagree with a ''blanket'' aproval of all abortions, even though I know some are ok, there are some that I think are infact ''immoral'', because the person having it is immoral and the cause was not justified , in my opinion.
ya, I don't want my tax dollars, paying for abuse of the system, even though I can't help some of it, If I can reason it out, I might as well ''state my case'' too! OK then!! ;D
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Post by rational on Jun 20, 2008 19:15:18 GMT -5
It looks as though we need to get the original text, so we don't get confused about what is meant/implied/ interpreted by the terms : slaves, servants, ownership, selling, etc, etc Most parents, are considered responsible for their ''own'' children, so does that mean they ''own'' their children? yes and no I can receive a monetary compensation if I allow you to ''fully adopt/own'' my children, but for the sake of morality, we will not call that gift, a ''purchase price'', even though I have to pay he ''price''. ?Does ''selling'' your daughter, mean that you will get some form of compensation? (US dollars, Euro dollars, yen , wang, grub, food, a good slap in the face! ;D) ya, it could be the small print needs to be read before signing your daughters life away, eh? You know that morality is not defined by an action, but by the interpretation (either by legal court, or devine court) ... no sense making a longer post, since you are intent to disagree, anyways, eh? ;D No, there is no sense unless you are willing to answer the original question unstead of spinning in the wind. In reply 161 you posted: "In my so humble opinion, all morals are designed by God, to help us live a 'wholesome' life." Among the things that god has sanctioned were slavery and selling your daughter to another. You believe that there is a universal morality from god. This is part of it. Do you believe slavery and selling your daughter is a moral act? You can place any spin you wish on adoption and money exchanged for children and that might make a good discussion at some point but the question before you is do you think slavery and the sale of humans is moral as indicated by the bible?
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Post by rational on Jun 20, 2008 19:21:57 GMT -5
Probably one of the most immoral acts that can be done, is ''murder''. This could be debated. It is fine for you to disagree with abortions. But this goes back to all morals coming from god. And in the bible the kill of an unborn child does not carry the same punishment as the killing of an individual so one could reach the conclusion that the killing of the unborn was not considered murder by the entity giving the law. These are your morals and you have claimed they are from god. So far you have not provided any biblical reference to support your claims. Maybe morals aren't objective after all.
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 20:13:51 GMT -5
It looks as though we need to get the original text, so we don't get confused about what is meant/implied/ interpreted by the terms : slaves, servants, ownership, selling, etc, etc Most parents, are considered responsible for their ''own'' children, so does that mean they ''own'' their children? ?Does ''selling'' your daughter, mean that you will get some form of compensation? (US dollars, Euro dollars, yen , wang, grub, food, a good slap in the face! ;D) You know that morality is not defined by an action, but by the interpretation (either by legal court, or devine court) .. No, there is no sense unless you are willing to answer the original question unstead of spinning in the wind. In reply 161 you posted: "In my so humble opinion, all morals are designed by God, to help us live a 'wholesome' life." Do you believe slavery and selling your daughter is a moral act? do you believe that they could be, as I have suggested? I would sell everything ..or give everything to a Worthy Master, ...that is what the workers do in a natural way, and all believers, in a spiritual sense, so, yes, if we give ourselves to a cause, is that not the same as ''selling '' ourselves? now don't take this wrong, please. (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) so then I guess we need secular laws for us human beings,[and our differing beliefs!] and courts to settle disputes. If thats all we accomplish with this discussion, then sobeit! ;D whatever!
I do believe that there can be great bennifit from going against ungodly secular laws, however, such as the Hebrew , Daniel did , and got thrown into the lions den.
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Post by y me on Jun 20, 2008 20:25:14 GMT -5
so your morals are 'subjective' not 'objective' ?
Do you think that immoral people, use the arguement that all morals are ''subjective'' just to justify their immorality? I think some/many do, I hope you aren't one of them, but then maybe it doesn't matter
Certainly , it isn't difficult to believe that we all make mistakes, and have done immoral acts, at some time, somehow the need to have them forgiven by god, doesn't concern some, though....
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