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Post by FYI on Sept 30, 2004 13:56:21 GMT -5
They are on for the first debate tonight. I hope they are interesting and informative. Looking forward to them.
If you don't have TV, go to a store and check it out. It is worth the time to see what they think coming from thier own mouths.
Remember to vote!
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Post by Bertine Louise on Oct 1, 2004 15:19:34 GMT -5
Ok people, what did you think ??! I didn't get to see the whole thing on tv, but I just read the whole transcript. www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/debatereferee/debate_0930.htmlI have to say, I used to be just anti-Bush, but now I'm more pro-Kerry! I wouldn't be able to understand how anyone could not see he was way better at this. Bush came off pretty weak if you ask me. Often he didn't address the issues or lost the point. He kept bringing up the same old same old argument that Kerry was a flip-flop. I think Kerry dealt really well with that accusation, and it should be in the past. He also made it clear that he didn't oppose an Iraq war per se, but he opposes the way Bush dealt with it! You have to be strong, determined AND smart! I personally feel Bush handles this whole war on terror thing like some sort of strong and charming but very clumsy elephant. He means well, but causes a lot of damage. After this debate I really think Kerry is the better one of the 2 in theory. I still fear Bush is going to win though
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Post by video on Oct 1, 2004 17:45:45 GMT -5
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Brenda
Senior Member
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Post by Brenda on Oct 1, 2004 19:54:10 GMT -5
Pro Bush here!!
Although I was somewhat disappointed in the debates-- not what Bush said-- just how he said it--
Kerry did well-- but to me he is full of hot air-- he says what he thinks folks want to hear- all this I am going to do this and my plan-- but he has not outlined a plan- and is not specific in how he is going to accomplish things--
although I will admit-- I am Republican-- and am prejudiced in my view-- LOL
I will definatly be watching the next few debates--
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hinds not logged in
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Post by hinds not logged in on Oct 1, 2004 20:02:47 GMT -5
I wouldn't vote for Kerry for anything thank you.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Oct 1, 2004 20:58:18 GMT -5
It is clear to me that Kerry is a good politician. He is able to say what is benificial to himself at the time and does not seem to be constrained by truth or any set of core principles. While this does make him a good politician, it does not make him a good leader as his record shows. We need leaders, not good politicians... there is a big difference.
Peroutka2004.com
Robb
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Post by Bertine Louise on Oct 2, 2004 9:40:31 GMT -5
I was very disappointed in both the 'what' and the 'how'. I read the transcript so I didn't hear Bush' usual stuttering, pauses of clueless silence or see his blank looks. His words didn't show much of rhetoric skill but that's not the worst thing. The worst thing is he hardly had anything to say! Kerry attacked him on numerous points and he could never properly defend himself! I can not see how anyone can find him credible as the leader of the most powerful nation in the world.
I think Kerry bluffed a lot indeed, but if he is full of hot air, Bush is just full of thin air. He hardly had anything of substance. He could only produce the same hollow and oversimplified (something the masses like) statements about spreading freedom and democracy ( like we all wouldn't want that) and the only thing he could bring up againt Kerry (repetetively wether it applied to the issues or not) was his flip flop past, something Kerry countered succesfully.
I couldn't believe how Bush statements were so out of touch with reality, and then he has the misplaced arrogance to say he "knows how this world works"! I think Kerry proved he is far superior to Bush as to knowing how this world really works, and his impressive cv only supports that.
Kerry is much more internationally orientated - he showed that in his 4 point plan- than Bush, and it seems obvious to me that that's important for the supposed world leader. But I guess and regret that most Americans aren't attracted to that at all! America could do so much better if they wouldn't isolate themselves like they have under Bush!
No, you need good leaders! America should not put up with a determent leader that is determent to lead the wrong way!
Iraq and the war on terror is what Bush' current popularity is based on and he couldn't live up to it in this debate. If he was nervous now, I already feel genuinly sorry for him when the debate moves to internal affairs and the economy.
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Post by k on Oct 2, 2004 18:23:07 GMT -5
No offense Bertine, But how can a Dutch lady really have a good scope on American politics. Would be like me commenting on Tony Blair of England. You have to live in a country to know the political issues and culture.
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Post by Bertine Louise on Oct 2, 2004 18:53:23 GMT -5
No offense Bertine, But how can a Dutch lady really have a good scope on American politics. Would be like me commenting on Tony Blair of England. You have to live in a country to know the political issues and culture. No offense taken mr K And please, I'm just a girl I'm not claiming I have a good scope on American politics, but I do have an opinion especially when it comes to foreign affairs. The US has such a dominant position in our world that we are all affected by its policies and can all see what's goin on. I also know good and bad arguments when I see it! And I'd say there would be nothing wrong with you commenting on Tony Blair! You do have a point that as a European I am a bit out of touch with American culture. I just don't understand why Bush is more popular than Kerry. Well, maybe I can understand a bit, but I just can't relate to it. I prefer Kerry cos he's more internationally orientated (and 10x smarter). What I hated most about the Iraq war was that Bush thought he could do things singlehandedly, and he just didn't care what the rest of the world thought. And many Americans feel that way. It's all about America. I am Dutch and I am European. But I also feel I'm a global citizen. And i think Bush and many Americans don't share that.
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Post by american on Oct 2, 2004 21:13:34 GMT -5
As an american "born and rasied" (sorry lame joke) i agree with you.
It's a globel world deal with it and grow up America. I beleive we're the greatest country but we do have a hard time taking off our blinders.
I would think that if there is one thing we could learn from histroy is that religean and politics make for a very bad combination.
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Post by botany on Oct 3, 2004 1:27:59 GMT -5
I only listened to about 10 minutes of the debate on the radio, but I taped the TV broadcast so I will watch it soon. However, during the 10 minutes I listened to, Bush kept shooting the dead "Saddam-was-a-threat-and-the-world-is-safer-now" horse. Kerry had much better answers that weren't just the same thing repeated over and over and over and over and over and over... and over. As an American, I agree with much of Bertine the Dutch Lady's (European) comments. andy
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Post by Just Here on Oct 3, 2004 1:40:28 GMT -5
I'm not claiming I have a good scope on American politics, but I do have an opinion especially when it comes to foreign affairs. The US has such a dominant position in our world that we are all affected by its policies and can all see what's goin on. I think you probably know a lot more about what is going on in the world than a person who takes some amount of pride in the fact that they don't real newspapers! Bertine is my heroine! And logical vs. illogical as well. Don't feel badly - I have been an American for all of my life (so far!) and I don't get it either. I did hear that some women like the image that Bush projects. The rugged cave man type I guess. I think you are either underselling Kerry or overselling Bush(re: the intellegence)! You didn't like it along with most of the civilized world as well as many Americans and the uncivilized world. You seemingly have hit upon a number of truths.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Oct 3, 2004 9:02:57 GMT -5
Yes, feminine woman are attracted to masculine men. That is the way God intended it.
Are we better off with Saddam out or not?
Yes, if you were an American you might not feel that way. Most Americans have no desire to associate with the French for example.
It is interesting that when something in the world needs to be done, it is primarily US dollars and lives that get it done. It seems that the rest of the world both appreciates that and resents that at the same time. US citizens should be proud of what thier tax dollars have accomplished in the world... it is more than any other nation in history.
An American taxpayer,
Robb
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Post by Robb Klaty on Oct 3, 2004 9:07:51 GMT -5
Do you disagree or do you just consider the point to be obvious?
Robb
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Post by Bertine Louise on Oct 3, 2004 10:04:44 GMT -5
Rofl, I'm beginning to doubt American women's taste. (joke!) (btw there is www.axisofeve.org/)George Bush looks like a little lost puppy dog! He looks and is clueless! Ask him about his plan for Iraq and all he can do is sqeal that it's 'hard work'. Like that guy from Fox, Bill O'Reilly (on Bush's side!) said, we ask for a plan, not a job description! Well, then again you all will discount my taste, cos I think Kerry's long nose and chin are really hot:P But most of all you gotta love him for his intellect. I personally think nothing is 'sexier' than that And yes Present, i did type a 100x, but thought i wouldn't trample on Bush too much! ;D Bush might be emotionally more intelligent though. Playing the US daddy and all after 9/11. Keeping his speeches simple with muscled words even if they don't relate to reality, it works with the masses. Kerry is hard to follow for many. But if you read the transcript you'll see he has a much better story. He does need to use his facial muscles more! He looks nice when he smiles. Of course the world would be better without Saddam, but it's not a matter of 'if', it's a matter of what the best way is! The way it's done now made America definately not safer. And the end does not always justify the means! Well I'm glad at least some global Americans showed up in this thread. They realise we are all in this world together! And this world will work better if we work together! And stop harping about the French. The French have every right to disagree with you, and they certainlyhave no monopoly on that! So you have a lot of money and a lot of soldiers? That doesn't mean you can do as you like. I think an enormous amount of Americans especially in the less priviledged classes would have loved to see some more money funding their healthcare, education etc etc. If you'll excuse me now, I have to go study, something I wouldn't be able to do if I'd have lived in the US. Thank God I don't have to join the army to get a chance on higher education!
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Post by Unthought out on Oct 3, 2004 11:46:16 GMT -5
"So you have a lot of money and a lot of soldiers? That doesn't mean you can do as you like. I think an enormous amount of Americans especially in the less priviledged classes would have loved to see some more money funding their healthcare, education etc etc."
*****
Money - we work for our money and work very diligently thank you. One shouldn't feel bad about those who have not worked hard enough to earn a living - you get what you put forth. If you arn't making what you need - get another job or work more than one. Better yet, live within your means. Credit and being overextended is a major problem. People create thier own poverty by not examining the true picture. No one should get a free ride. Working for what you have makes for a better citizen.
Yes, the USA has a large army. What's your point? Many countrys have large militarys.
No one ever said we can "do what we like". That statement was said without backing. Did you make that up from your own opinion?
Those who don't have healthcare can look for other jobs - most companys in this country almost all have insurance benifits for thier employees - I have never worked for a company that didn't. There are plenty of jobs. Now if all of those who for whatever reason choose not to want to work - too bad for them.
Our education system is pretty good. Having grown up here and attaining a very good career I can't complain. I had good teachers and have a nice career. If you choose to you may give your children public, private, or home school. Both boys and girls have the right and freedom to a free education in the USA. That can't be said in all parts of the world.
*****
"If you'll excuse me now, I have to go study, something I wouldn't be able to do if I'd have lived in the US. Thank God I don't have to join the army to get a chance on higher education!"
*****
As to that remark - I disagree. You don't have to join the military to get a college education. Most students in the USA currentyl in higher education are NOT in the military, nor have they been. However, it is a nice option for those who choose to go that route to know that they can go to school - unfortunatly most who are in the military do not take advantage of the free education. This is their choice. College isn't for everyone. For those who don't go into the military, there are wonderful programs to help you. Everyone can go to school if they desire. Many companys also assist with financial aide for further education for thier employees as well. Working your way through school is also another great way to support yourself while attaining your higher education. Working while attending school helps you mature and assits in decision making.
I have family in college who do well and do it without being in the military thank you. Don't make such biased blanketed statements Bertine. You have never lived here nor have you been to college here. I have also talked to others who live where you live. It's not a bed of roses there either. And they have been having a very bad time getting into university - I remember you once posted that everyone can go for free. I find this hard to believe and also, it must be very hard on your economy, not to mention that not everyone benifits from college. You live in a country that has very high unemployment problems as well, and a heavy welfare state - must be expensive to have to carry that load.
Good luck with your studies. Do well and I wish the best for you.
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Post by k on Oct 3, 2004 12:00:19 GMT -5
I wished Europeans would realize that politics in America is different than politics in Europe. Different values. Different ideas of foreign policy. They can be pacifists and oppose US involvement in conflicts because they have America to save their rear ends. Europeans don't value patriotism and national soverignity because they are alligned with one another through the European Economic Community. These nations lost their colonial empire long ago. The Dutch once had influence in East Indies and Carribean. Also Africa. The European nations don't realize that Americans are still proud of their superpower status. And they resent us. And they act like we are evil and dangerous. Yet let them be invaded and see who they reach out to! You guessed it. The good old USA.
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Post by Bertine Louise on Oct 3, 2004 14:43:37 GMT -5
Thank you for your responses, i was already fearing I might have been to harsh, but hey, at least i get some action going!
'unthought out' i would appreciate a (nick)name, that makes it easier to address you.
Maybe I have been a bit blunt, but that's what you get as a reaction to other blunt statements lol. I get a little weary of those comments about how Europe should be grateful to the US (like we aren't) and support everything they want. I get 'accused' of never been in America, but what about people trashing Europe here, have they ever been here? I know Present has!
I want you to know that i have every respect for hard working Americans, Ive heard you guys only get like 1 or 2 weeks holidays per year, and i sincerely feel sorry for you! But I won't get into discussion about the difference between our systems - I don't have time right now and we'll never agree. You are content and that's good for you, and I am content too. But that's just you and me.
I realise my comments about higher education might seem a bit blunt, but I'm serious. You can tell me if I'm wrong but from what I know higher education in the US is horribly expensive. It is out of the question for the lower classes. And I would be one of those if i was living in America. My Dad does not have a good job, and he's just not able to. He would never be able to pay for my studies.
But here I am, I am doing 2 different degrees (for the price of 1!)and can pay for everything myself. All students get scholarships from the govt. for 4 years (for the rest you can get cheap loans) and the amount you get depends on your parents income. My Dad's income is not all that so I get quite a lot, and it actually covers practically all my college costs. I guess it does make a difference that I still live at home. The great thing is that students also get to travel for free all thru the NL! And yes, I have a job too, for 2 days a week or whatever, i can be flexible.
Actually! I am planning to have a semester for my studies in the US. I want to go abroad and I think it would be a very interesting experience in the US. I find the differences between our continents fascinating. I doubt you would find me more credible once I get back tho, when you just don't like my opinion;)
Er... we are not proud of our colonial history. We have a lot of blood on our hands. Of course we don't like to talk about that!
I don't think America is evil and dangerous. I do think that it has all the power to do things that are evil and very dangerous, as well as the power to do a lot that's very good. Both has happened and will happen.
Thanks for that! These boards are no good for my studies! I have a test tomorrow and better get started.
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Post by American on Oct 3, 2004 16:03:10 GMT -5
I think unthought out is a little out of touch with how the other part of America lives.
It isn't as easy as getting another job to get healthcare. In case you haven’t been paying attention the job market isn’t the best here. Are you saying that 54 million (I believe is the current number) Americans are lazy and just need to get a different job? If you think it’s that easy to get healthcare I’ve got some real estate you might be interested in.
Have you seen the figures of what percent of kids coming from low income households go to college? Have you compared it with the percent going from higher income levels? Bertine is a lot closer than the truth than you are. Maybe you better look into a few things.
In theory what your saying makes sense but the facts of what is happening in America don’t back it up. Someone who had no means to go to college can’t just walk into an office and demand a job paying a “good” wage and benefits, doesn’t work that way.
It’s easy to brush over other peoples reality if you’ve never experienced them. Doesn’t mean nobody overcomes poverty but not mean do.
Couldn’t be the system though, must be they are lazy poor people, yeah lazy they must be, now where did I park my Lexis.
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Post by Another American on Oct 3, 2004 22:28:46 GMT -5
Sorry American,
Where I live there is an abundance of jobs - maybe you should move to another state?
I also know that for the most part - any lower paying job including fast food and retail has health insurance. Check into getting a part time job there if you need coverage.
I have no rose colored glasses - just live where the experience is different than yours - again sorry about yours.
I would get two jobs (if I needed to) in order to do what needed to be done - and again more than not you have the majority of those complaining not willing to do menial jobs (fast food, ect) and yet - I see now hiring signs for as much as $10.00 an hour for some of these lower paying jobs in my area. Not a bad wage for jobs many people snub thier noses at. And with paid health benifits to boot.
Coming from a "lower than low" income (parents divorced, no help from them for school) I know that many that I know that have the ability to make the grades and pass the entrance exams make it in with grants, ect. Moreso than the "rich" kids.
I have myself been on both sides - and I am a homeowner with two vehicles (paid for) and a very nice career, which I worked for. No one gave me a handout. You can overcome being from a poor background. It takes due dilligence, and hard work. Oh, by the way, I actually worked in a fast food rest. and bought my first house with two minimun wage jobs - so it can be done. The American dream is what you make of it.
Never say never. I am proud to have what I have and consider myself lucky to live in a place where I have greater freedoms than many have elsewhere.
Let freedom ring!
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Post by Just Here on Oct 3, 2004 22:54:43 GMT -5
Sorry American, Where I live there is an abundance of jobs - maybe you should move to another state? Sounds like the solution. Move all of the people to the one state where the jobs are. It sounds about as precarious as saying that everyone in the US can be employed if everyone agrees to do someone else's laundry. You must have bought the Bush myth that there are more jobs available! Part time positions usually do not pay benefits. Do you really buy the "get several menial jobs to survive" solution? Shouldn't people be able to exist and have some time to be home with their family rather than having to work multiple jobs to survive? I get the feeling that you might need glasses of some kind to see anything clearly. You are really out of touch with reality. $10 an hour is just over $20K a year. With the taxes in place you might get to take home $17K. $1,410 a month to live. Think of a family of three. Do you really think they can live on that? How much is an apartment? clothes. medicine food transportation Of course. "Rich" kids do not get grants. I thought you said you got grants? Everyone else is just lazy and probably does not deserve to work in the US anyway. Unless, of course, they do not agree with you.
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Post by American on Oct 3, 2004 23:02:07 GMT -5
Didn’t say I didn’t have a job or insurance no reason to be sorry for me I’m above the curve just not blinded by the matter at hand. Did you know there is less jobs availably now then there was 3 years ago?
You are truly a great person to overcome those obstacles, unfortunately the numbers suggest you are in the minority of those that do. I don’t think I would have been able to over come what you did, looking back on my life I’m thankful I didn’t come from a low income family.
I know it’s often easier to get help if you come from a low income family. The question is why don’t more kids from low income families go to college? There is theory and then there is what actually happens. What actually happens is a lot less kids from low income families go to college. Did you know that or does it mean nothing?
Some people without health insurance work two jobs neither of which pay benefits and both are often part time. Many fast food jobs are part time and part time usually doesn’t pay benefits. Regardless, the fact is there is a lot of people unable to get health insurance. Did you know that then number of people without health insurance is higher now than it was a year ago and the year before that and continues to rise? This suggests to me that it isn’t a simple matter of “going and getting a job with benefits”.
One other fact you might want to check too. The gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow in America.
If dismissing those facts (rising number or people without healthcare and wage gap) as people being lazy therefore there is no problem isn’t looking through “rose colored glasses” I’m not sure what is. I know we didn’t talk about the wage gap before but it still suggest a developing problem and the healthcare is can stand on its own if need be as a big problem.
One other thing your personal experience is nice to illustrate what can be done but can not be taken as representing the whole of America or even a part of it and really doesn’t mean anything when looking at the big picture.
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Post by botany on Oct 4, 2004 13:20:28 GMT -5
Do you disagree or do you just consider the point to be obvious? Robb I disagree that the world is safer. Well, actually, I think that the removal of Saddam from power, in itself, doesn't really have all that much effect on the world security. The consequences of the action taken by the U.S. by removing Saddam has made the Middle East, namely Iraq, a more volitile region -- open to whatever group that has an affinity to violence. Saddam was perhaps a threat to his own country, but definitely not to the world. Bush seemed to excessively reiterate his position that the world is safer without Saddam in power. A classic case of "If I say it enough, it is true." andy
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Post by AmericanGuest on Oct 4, 2004 22:43:58 GMT -5
Yes, it's a big fat lie that the world is safer with Saddam gone. Might have been true had it occurred in a different manner, but with insurgents pouring in, no large international coalition to help... just a mess. Great recruitment tool for the terrorists what Bush did, squandering the good will afforded the US after 9/11. Bush made a mistake (several actually), can any Bush supporter admit that? And what about this largest deficit in history? Why people insist on hanging onto his every spin on the war baffles me. And sure it's true that American politics aren't the same as European politics (duh) but is it not true that we're all in this world community together, what one country does reverberates with everyone else, and we'd be better off paying attention to each others needs and concerns, not just our own?
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Post by Just Here on Oct 4, 2004 23:04:52 GMT -5
There is the possibility that the people of Iraq will decide that they wish to be a theocracy.
I wonder how that will sit with those who are determined that Iraq wants to be a democracy?
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Post by american on Oct 4, 2004 23:06:17 GMT -5
So very true.
Takes a big man to admit their mistakes.
I'm not aware of Bush admiting any mistake.
I'm not sure America or the world can afford 4 more years of Bush.
I shutter to think of what this current administration will do with 4 years as a lame duck, very scary to think about.
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See Dick and Jane run
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Post by See Dick and Jane run on Oct 4, 2004 23:08:53 GMT -5
[quote author=Guest-Unthought out link=board=temporal&thread=1096570581&start=15#1 date=1096821976What's your point? Many countrys have large militarys.[/quote] Some have schools. Schools that teach English.
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Post by Robb Klaty on Oct 5, 2004 6:40:35 GMT -5
Does Kuwait ring a bell?
Robb
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