Did Brad Lewis really lose it?

[gloryintruth]

This changes nothing. This isn't customer service or parliament.

These sentences seem to equivocate. I never maintained that "this is" customer service or parliament. What I was attempting to point out, however, is that making raw statements to "you" is recognised as an impediment to politeness that sometimes makes conversation unpleasant or difficult.

Rudeness is possible without the word "you" so banning its use is pointless.

I would never say otherwise, and I am not advocating an interdiction on the word "you".

This is how discussions work. If your response has nothing to do with the discussion, then it isn't really a response; It is the beginning of a new discussion.

I think "you" are stating the obvious here.

My point is simply this: making something personal is not necessarily postive. To say, "You're unkind" - in other words, to label the person - is more hostile and negative than to say, "Some people on this forum are unkind". My contention is that labelling people through the word "you" comes across in tone as being hostile.

I never said every response is a personal response. I said every response is a response.

Just as every whisper is a whisper, and every car is a car. I'm sorry. I just do not see the point you're trying to make.

I hereby refuse to believe that you communicate for a living.

You can believe, or refuse to believe, anything about me that you like. However, I do not see the relevance of this to the point I have been attempting to make, or indeed, to most of the text you have posted in this thread.

"Silly" is GITeese for "poignant".

Poignant is a word I would not use in relation to the vast majority of posts on the TMB (mine included).

Both statements convey the same suggestion, "dock her allowance".

(Sigh.)

As for your responses, whether you state that someone is an idiot or you assert that they are an idiot, you are still attempting to convey the thought that they are an idiot. Watch, before the end of this post, I'll demonstrate by example. See if you can pick it out.

Why would anyone feel the need to communicate to someone else that they are an "idiot"? I have always believed that the label of idiocy is self-generated.

Idiocy is demonstrated by a person's quality of writing; by the character of the thoughts they convey. In this sense - the sense in which I am speaking, anyway - people make themselves out to be idiots or fools. They need no one to label them as such! For such a defect is self-evident to the world.

I'm going to give you an example of this in practice:

I know an Australian that's a real Dip Shit.

See?

Then quit bitching.

I do not think it was I who wanted to defend and justify "with references and context" accusative statements made in the past.

I can know up to and including what has been made public and that is quite enough. My conclusion stands.

Good on you!

[jh62]

In this sense - the sense in which I am speaking, anyway - people make themselves out to be idiots, or fools and silly-billies. They need no one to label them as such!

Oh man...you've been reading MY posts, haven't you?! LOL

[eyedeetentee]

Kiss him. After all, the bible tells you to greet him with a kiss.

[gloryintruth]

Kiss him. After all, the bible tells you to greet him with a kiss.

The Bible says a lot of things, and sets a lot of moral standards, which regrettably are not always followed on the TMB. (And I include myself in this category also).

[wanttobewithGod]

fb said:

wanttobewithgod said:

Don't insult me, please, Frank. I don't like your posts; you don't like Jason's posts. So??? I mean, come on. M.

Oh thicken your skin. I wasn't insulting you.

You called me a bully and I was defending myself by attempting to show you the difference between Jason's behavior and mine.

"Come on" indeed!

My skin is plenty "thick"; you don't bother me near as much as you might think you do. I just say what I feel, just like you do...simple as that! M.

To add to that....whether your behavior is better/worse/equal to GIT's on this board, is a matter of opinion. At least Jason recognizes when he has gone too far in a moment of annoyance and apologizes. You don't seem to think you ever have anythign to apologize for. That's fine; as I said, it's a matter of opinion. We just don't agree. Oh well!

[But]

Frankly speaking, I must have the last word., cant you understand that?

[Frank]

gloryintruth said:

I'm truly glad and happy that you rejoice in the salvation of God.

I must say, however, that I find it painful to read the view that confession and repentance is, to use the words above, a form of required masochism.

When you put it like that, it seems so reasonable.

However, in "Truth", this "confession and repentance" goes so much further, to the point of living in daily fear and doubt as to the status of one's salvation, constantly wondering what evil Satan has planned for that last 3 minutes of one's life that will cause one to "abandon the race" in those final minutes.

My reading is that Jesus said, "He who would come after me must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me" and in another place, "He who saves his life shall lose it, but he who loses his life shall save it", and in another place, "If we confess our sins, he is just and quick to forgive".

The key is in the degree to which this is interpreted.

If ongoing confession and repentance are required masochism,

This is the way many in "Truth" interpret it, though they don't use this wording.

Frankly, before I left, I thought I was going to be ill if I had to hear one more tearful testimony along the line of "I just want to be more worthy. I need to give more up. There's just too much in my life that I take pleasure in. I just don't feel like I'm ready. I want to do my part. I have to find a way to be worthy. I'm afraid I haven't done enough. I'm afraid I won't quite make it."

As I interpret it, this kind of self-induced anguish goes beyond the verses you quoted.

then it would appear (extraordinarily enough) that the Apostles and yea, the Lord himself, so taught this!

Again, interpretation, interpretation, interpretation.

Peace be unto you.

Your brother in Christ,
Frank

[Frank]

gloryintruth said:

These sentences seem to equivocate. I never maintained that "this is" customer service or parliament. What I was attempting to point out, however, is that making raw statements to "you" is recognised as an impediment to politeness that sometimes makes conversation unpleasant or difficult.

Fair enough.

What I was attempting to point out is that making raw statements without "you" can be, based on context, equally impolite, sometimes making conversation equally as unpleasant and equally as difficult.

I would never say otherwise, and I am not advocating an interdiction on the word "you".

I'm glad we agree.

I'm wondering now why you mentioned it in the first place. You seemed to be suggesting that you were maintaining a civil tone simply by omitting the word "you" and that, somehow, such restraint was an indication that you were not condemning or making trouble. Clearly, this was established on false premise.

I think "you" are stating the obvious here.

I'm glad we're moving on.

My point is simply this: making something personal is not necessarily postive. To say, "You're unkind" - in other words, to label the person - is more hostile and negative than to say, "Some people on this forum are unkind". My contention is that labelling people through the word "you" comes across in tone as being hostile.

My point is that in certain context, there is no difference.

Just as every whisper is a whisper, and every car is a car. I'm sorry. I just do not see the point you're trying to make.

That's OK. We've settled it.

You can believe, or refuse to believe, anything about me that you like. However, I do not see the relevance of this to the point I have been attempting to make, or indeed, to most of the text you have posted in this thread.

Suit yourself.

Poignant is a word I would not use in relation to the vast majority of posts on the TMB (mine included).

Then... oh... how silly. ;D

(Sigh.)

Yes. Moving on.

Why would anyone feel the need to communicate to someone else that they are an "idiot"?

It was an example and you know it. Yet you chose to avoid my point because it was unflattering to yourself. You completely missed the point... deliberately.

I have always believed that the label of idiocy is self-generated.

I don't suppose I'd be so lucky as to see you demonstrate this.

Idiocy is demonstrated by a person's quality of writing; by the character of the thoughts they convey. In this sense - the sense in which I am speaking, anyway - people make themselves out to be idiots or fools. They need no one to label them as such! For such a defect is self-evident to the world.

You did it again. You didn't use the word "you", just like last time.

And hey, how about that, you did demonstrate your claim that "the label of idiocy is self-generated".

Thanks. That was funny. ;D

I'm going to give you an example of this in practice:

Wait a minute. You already did.

I know an Australian that's a real Dip Shit.

That sounds more like self deprecation.

See?

I'm not sure what you were trying to prove there.

I do not think it was I who wanted to defend and justify "with references and context" accusative statements made in the past.

No it wasn't. I offered to do this as a favor to you, because you were bitching about my "unsubstantiated" accusations. I was offering to provide proof. You declined.

Good on you!

Your brother in Christ,
Frank

[Frank]

wanttobewithgod said:

My skin is plenty "thick"; you don't bother me near as much as you might think you do.

If you say so. I don't have a lot to go on, other than what you posted:

Don't insult me, please, Frank. I don't like your posts; you don't like Jason's posts. So??? I mean, come on. M.

I just say what I feel, just like you do...simple as that! M.

If your going to dish it out, learn to take it.

To add to that....whether your behavior is better/worse/equal to GIT's on this board, is a matter of opinion.

Don't forget about pre-conceived biases and personal preference.

At least Jason recognizes when he has gone too far in a moment of annoyance and apologizes.

As do I. You've just chosen to ignore it, apparently.

You don't seem to think you ever have anythign to apologize for.

Your selective interpretation of what you see here isn't my problem.

That's fine; as I said, it's a matter of opinion.

Among other things.

We just don't agree. Oh well!

Your brother in Christ,
Frank

[sharing]

Brad,

Thanks for sharing this with the board. Frank noted that your writing shows a notorious healing, and I completely agree with him.

May God bless you in your continous walk with him.

Lets hope for the best outcome for Nathan. In whatever pain he is finding himself, may God be with him.

bradly said:

I started too young in the work. I should have had more indoctrination by the cult. But then by that time I think I would have started asking questions too. So whether I was too young or too old, anyone with a conscience would've left the work.

It was really too much for me to hear Howard Mooney telling Wayne Harris about the brother worker doing sex acts in the little kids room. I mean, how do you cope with that?

I had no one to really talk to about it. At that age you just put those things into the back of your head because you don't know what to do about it? Who would I talk to? What would I ask? I mean the workers aren't going to help me. Good grief, and then when you're sick from malnutrition and confused as to the meaning of life from the behaviour around you, they dump you off at your parents and say that you need to "rest". Uh huh.

When I went into the work, I was 18. I had several jobs before going into the work. I worked part-time at Senn's drive-in Dairy and also helped build some of the green houses at a nursery (they're still there) out in Beaverton.

My folks didn't raise me well, for sure. My dad has told me that. But nothing can prepare you for being a cult worker. It's just not healthy. To pretend to be an apostle of Jesus Christ but reject the very core teaching of Jesus, to believe in Him? It'll kill anyone.

I'm really thankful that I got sick. I'm glad my mother recognized that I was at the beginning of a nervous breakdown. For those of you that don't know what this sickness is, I'll describe a little.

A nervous breakdown is similar to ripping a muscle. Imaging you lift a weight in your one arm. Same repetition each day. Only you don't get to sleep, so the muscle never heals. And then you keep increasing the weight but force yourself to lift it. You reach a point where the muscle tears because it cannot heal and has no way to rebuild to increase strength.

Nervous breakdowns happen when you are living a lie. You say one thing, but you're doing another. You say you're happy, but you're not. So you start thinking. But there's too much to think about. With thinking, we do it night and day whether we want to (mostly) or not. Every person has to go through and reconcile what's going on around them with what they believe. Either they change what they believe to justify themselves or they change what they do.

I started to change what I was doing. I started talking to people when handing out invitations. I started talking to preachers. I asked questions. They didn't like it. I started doing stuff like asking elders to lead the meeting, because they had more experience. After all, why were people always serving me when I should be a servant to others? All these contradictions were killing me and I couldn't stop thinking about it.

So, here's some details of how a partial nervous breakdown physically feels. So basicly before it happens you're just confused as normal. You know the confusion that is making you sick. And when I say confusion, it just means an overload of thoughts that you don't have enough time or energy to sort through yet. So I'm talking to Kurtis Jacobsen, the only person that came to visit me when I was sick (except Craig Jacobsen who came to ask for some money back, a $20 bill that Vic Green gave to me and wanted back). God bless Craig Jacobsen and Vic Green for that. It helps show how righteous they really are. Anyways, I was talking with Kurtis and I feel what's like this blowtorch on the back of my neck. Only my neck isn't hot and there's no blowtorch behind me. And it half feels like someone is tearing the skin off the back of my neck, but not on the surface, it's really deep like the spinal column. And so I tell my mom I'm not feeling good. And she says "You need to go lie down and not think". She says, "If you start thinking, tell yourself to stop and just think about nothing". Well, that was hard, I was a thinker all my life and still am. But I did that and the burning stopped. Now I was fortunate. Thank God my mom was there. From what I remember, mom has been through a full nervous breakdown. I remember when she was sitting in the lazyboy and we'ld come kiss her eye-lids and say "I love you mommy". And she would just cry because she couldn't do anything. In fact this is about the first time I've really talked about this and I really appreciate someone bringing this up. So now I was saved from a full nervous breakdown where it goes completely up the back of your neck, over the top of your head all the way to your forehead. So now you know some of the rest of the story.

And for those that love lies, you're really slacking. If you're going to tell lies, you gotta make them better. Anyone who knows me knows I've worked hard my whole life except for in the work. The devil would be ashamed of you. And if you've decided to sell yourself out this far, you might as well go on a killing rampage and fill up your measure.

And Junias, you're totally right. I wasn't called by God to go in the work. I was called by a spirit not of God, but of the devil. And the persuasion to go into the work was a result of peer pressure and a desire to feel loved which I did not get at home.

The love of God has helped me heal and continues to help me heal. Thanks to God I can talk about this to people who hate me.

Praise God for His wonderful works to the children of men.

Brad

[un Nathan Barker]

[gloryintruth]

Your brother in Christ,
Frank

I am sorry to say this, but you are not my brother! I do not recognise anything discernably Christian in your posts; I do not recognise you as a follower of the teachings of the Bible. Just as the Mormon is not my brother; and the Roman Catholic is not my brother, so you are not my brother.

[degem]

It seems to me that men spend more time haggling and arguing
over things than women do on the board..

[gloryintruth]

However, in "Truth", this "confession and repentance" goes so much further, to the point of living in daily fear and doubt as to the status of one's salvation,

I am sorry, but for a man to say he is aware of the emotional and mental processes of a group of people, is bordering on assumed omniscience. And I will freely confess that I am no stranger to this habit - I have classified exes like insects in the past; and I have always been shown to be thoroughly foolish in the process. I would not like to assume I know what goes on in men's souls.

You write that people in the Fellowship live constantly in fear and doubt. This has not been my experience of others - but I have experienced these things in myself. Fear of hell and damnation, however (as C. S. Lewis pointed out) is not a sickness, but a healthy fear that drives us to the Lord of Mercy. No man appreciates salvation, unless he has trembled in mortal fear at the prospect of spending an eternity, lost.

Frankly, before I left, I thought I was going to be ill if I had to hear one more tearful testimony along the line of "I just want to be more worthy. I need to give more up. There's just too much in my life that I take pleasure in. I just don't feel like I'm ready. I want to do my part. I have to find a way to be worthy. I'm afraid I haven't done enough. I'm afraid I won't quite make it."

A consciousness of our unworthiness is important. For man is not worthy. I have often prayed to God acknowledging that I am not even "worthy of life", for I am a sinner. It has been pointed out that as folks get closer and closer to God, who the "Father of Lights", they become more conscious of their unworthiness, their sin and their need. As the Lord said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit ("those who know their need of God"), for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven".

To an unregenerate mind, such things are foolishness. To the world, it is foolishness. To be a confessional people; to look at ourselves rightly without airs and graces; to be "small in our own eyes"; to be ever examining our relationship to God; is just incomprehensible. Yet it is through such "Godly sorrow" that we find life and Spirit.

As I interpret it, this kind of self-induced anguish goes beyond the verses you quoted.

An expression of need is the expression of a "little child". I find it incomprehensible that a man could read the scripture and not be deeply moved by his own need, and God's meeting of it. I maintain that the Christian doctrine that is most easy to verify from scripture is that man is sinful. The sinfulness of man, and what that means when constrasted against a Holy God, whose wrath is kindled forever against all ungodliness.

As Moses said in his Psalm, "He is angry with us all the day long". But in Jesus of Nazareth, such condemnation is lifted. "He who believes is not condemned".

[Frank]

gloryintruth said:

Your brother in Christ,
Frank

I am sorry to say this, but you are not my brother! I do not recognise anything discernably Christian in your posts; I do not recognise you as a follower of the teachings of the Bible. Just as the Mormon is not my brother; and the Roman Catholic is not my brother, so you are not my brother.

I am utterly shocked that you think ill of my behavior, Jason Landless! OK, not really.

Your condemnation is duly noted.

Now Jason Landless, your behavior leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion, but I will stop short of questioning the power of the blood of our Lord and Savior in and over your life.

[Frank]

gloryintruth said:

I am sorry, but for a man to say he is aware of the emotional and mental processes of a group of people, is bordering on assumed omniscience.

One doesn't have to be a mind reader to get a sense for what some people are feeling in the meetings. Attend a few thousand meetings as I have (Or are you missing most of them now too?) and you start to see developing patterns.

And I will freely confess that I am no stranger to this habit - I have classified exes like insects in the past; and I have always been shown to be thoroughly foolish in the process. I would not like to assume I know what goes on in men's souls.

Interesting. You seem to think you know my soul fairly well.

You write that people in the Fellowship live constantly in fear and doubt.

Yes. Some, perhaps many, but not all. I apologize if that wasn't clear earlier.

This has not been my experience of others -

If this is true to their experience then good for them!

but I have experienced these things in myself. Fear of hell and damnation, however (as C. S. Lewis pointed out) is not a sickness, but a healthy fear that drives us to the Lord of Mercy. No man appreciates salvation, unless he has trembled in mortal fear at the prospect of spending an eternity, lost.

I am sorry for your suffering. I hope you are better.

A consciousness of our unworthiness is important. For man is not worthy. I have often prayed to God acknowledging that I am not even "worthy of life", for I am a sinner. It has been pointed out that as folks get closer and closer to God, who the "Father of Lights", they become more conscious of their unworthiness, their sin and their need. As the Lord said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit ("those who know their need of God"), for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven".

Our works cannot make us worthy either.

Which do you think Satan prefers; Overconfidence in our Savior? Or doubt in our Savior?

To an unregenerate mind, such things are foolishness. To the world, it is foolishness. To be a confessional people; to look at ourselves rightly without airs and graces; to be "small in our own eyes"; to be ever examining our relationship to God; is just incomprehensible. Yet it is through such "Godly sorrow" that we find life and Spirit.

Again, it's about the degree to which we take this.

An expression of need is the expression of a "little child". I find it incomprehensible that a man could read the scripture and not be deeply moved by his own need, and God's meeting of it.

Indeed.

I maintain that the Christian doctrine that is most easy to verify from scripture is that man is sinful. The sinfulness of man, and what that means when constrasted against a Holy God, whose wrath is kindled forever against all ungodliness.

Your point?

As Moses said in his Psalm, "He is angry with us all the day long". But in Jesus of Nazareth, such condemnation is lifted. "He who believes is not condemned".

As I see it, none of this calls upon us to live our lives in fear and doubt of our salvation, something integral to Truth, at least in some parts of the world.

[simply put]

gloryintruth said:

Your brother in Christ,
Frank

I am sorry to say this, but you are not my brother! I do not recognise anything discernably Christian in your posts; I do not recognise you as a follower of the teachings of the Bible. Just as the Mormon is not my brother; and the Roman Catholic is not my brother, so you are not my brother.

That's because you are brother to no Christian.

[if not a]

If not a brother, then perhaps is father is the devil?

But what a statement!

Could anyone know that a person's father was the devil?

Could you tell by how they act, what they say, what they , ,worship?

Who was it that said, You are of your father, the devil?

-if not a

[gloryintruth]

Frank,

When you are not giving me a "taste of my own medicine" I like you a lot better. I have started getting the impression that you are not as... unkind as I thought you were earlier. I confess that I had written you off, and that I have made a mistake in so doing.

One doesn't have to be a mind reader to get a sense for what some people are feeling in the meetings. Attend a few thousand meetings as I have (Or are you missing most of them now too?) and you start to see developing patterns.

I regularly attend all meetings. And from time-to-time I hear things to which my immediate reaction is one of disagreement. But I always remember what an elderly worker used to say: "Our brothers may not come to the meeting with the right interpretation of scripture, but if they come with the right spirit, and attitude of love, service and humility, then we accept them".

I'm not saying that what you've observed is wrong - you've identified a pattern etc. But my challenge would be: "What does the pattern mean?" Working from the same data, you and I have interpreted this in two completely divergent ways. I interpret it as humility; I know myself to be nothing and before God, less-than-nothing - a sinful lump of flesh, worthy of death and justice's sword. To recognise this, is to recognise why the Gospel is "good news".

Interesting. You seem to think you know my soul fairly well.

I was not intended to judge your soul. I'm sorry if this is how I came across. My words were not meant to be condemning, even in an indirect way. They were actually sincere!

Yes. Some, perhaps many, but not all. I apologize if that wasn't clear earlier.

Thank you for your apology, and your kind tone. It is appreciated.

Our works cannot make us worthy either.

Agreed.

Which do you think Satan prefers; Overconfidence in our Savior? Or doubt in our Savior?

I don't doubt the Saviour's ability to save any man he chooses. I don't doubt the efficacy of the cross; or the omnipotence of his will. I doubt whether I have been chosen, like my brothers, "from before the foundation of the world"; I doubt whether my faith is genuine or strong enough; I doubt whether God cares about one so impoverished in soul as I. And for me to say, "Jesus will save me" is to my mind a conceit of pride. It may be that Jesus does not will to save me, or it may be that God rejected me from before creation and never predestinated me to perseverence to the end. I need to constantly search myself to see whether "I be of the Faith".

Again, it's about the degree to which we take this.

Are we not infinitely unworthy?

[Frank]

gloryintruth said:

Frank,

When you are not giving me a "taste of my own medicine" I like you a lot better. I have started getting the impression that you are not as... unkind as I thought you were earlier. I confess that I had written you off, and that I have made a mistake in so doing.

My first post (as Frank) mentioned you by name and was accusatory in nature. First impressions are hard to overcome. I understand.

I regularly attend all meetings. And from time-to-time I hear things to which my immediate reaction is one of disagreement. But I always remember what an elderly worker used to say: "Our brothers may not come to the meeting with the right interpretation of scripture, but if they come with the right spirit, and attitude of love, service and humility, then we accept them".

His words are wise.

With all due respect, your behavior toward the participants of this board is sorely lacking in this regard.

I'm not saying that what you've observed is wrong - you've identified a pattern etc. But my challenge would be: "What does the pattern mean?"

I spent years asking myself this. My eventual conclusion was that the prevailing attitude in Truth with regard to salvation is that it is something we earn.

Working from the same data, you and I have interpreted this in two completely divergent ways.

Actually, I saw things as you did for years. However, after much reading, praying, and a number of experiences, I began to see things differently which wasn't easy for me, as my nature was to be stubbornly set in my ways, and deny what was plainly and obviously before me. I had to force myself to be open to the possibility that I was wrong in my biased interpretation of what I was seeing. This was, quite honestly, the hardest thing I'd ever had to cope with.

I interpret it as humility;

I did too for a time. Now I interpret it as poor understanding and an underestimation or outright ignorance of the Grace of God.

I know myself to be nothing and before God, less-than-nothing - a sinful lump of flesh, worthy of death and justice's sword. To recognise this, is to recognise why the Gospel is "good news".

I see nothing wrong with this understanding.

The key is in the degree to which we respond to our insufficiency.

There's ignoring it (which is what you often accuse exs of).

There's a number of degrees in the middle.

Then there's obsessive preoccupation with it and public self-floggings, even suicide.

I believe that the latter has, at it's core, a lack of faith in the sufficiency of the salvation of our Lord and our Savior. I also submit to you that many, but not all, of the friends come closer to the latter than they do to the middle.

I was not intended to judge your soul. I'm sorry if this is how I came across. My words were not meant to be condemning, even in an indirect way. They were actually sincere!

Understood.

I don't doubt the Saviour's ability to save any man he chooses. I don't doubt the efficacy of the cross; or the omnipotence of his will.

OK.

I doubt whether I have been chosen, like my brothers, "from before the foundation of the world";

Why?

I doubt whether my faith is genuine or strong enough;

Why?

I doubt whether God cares about one so impoverished in soul as I.

Why?

This is one of the things about Truth that bothered me: Doubting God.

I don't readily recall either the workers or the friends stating plainly that God is to be doubted, but the implication was almost always there: "If I don't do X, Y, and Z, then God will cease to love me."

Where does this come from? Why is it so difficult to understand that God, the creator of Heaven and Earth, has within himself the capacity to love beyond our comprehension, especially when we, as human beings, struggle with the ability to explain the emotion of love as it exists in ourself?

It's no wonder exclusivism is so prevalent in Truth: "God barely loves me. How can he even come close to loving an outsider?"

Jason, I would like to encourage you to try something new: Relax, pray, and quiet your mind. Then find two or three strangers in your town who are willing, even enthusiastic, to talk with you (try a cafe, library, etc.) for a few minutes about their faith. Then ask them what God means to them. Now listen. Don't talk. Just listen. Watch your body language too. Listen. As you are listening, look for signs of confidence in God. (If approaching strangers about this is to awkward, and it can be in some cultures, try it with co-workers or other acquaintances with whom you do not frequently interact instead.) When you're done, if your comfortable doing so, you can share your observations here.

And for me to say, "Jesus will save me" is to my mind a conceit of pride.

I'm trying to understand "conceit of pride" as you mean it. I assume you mean it to be the equivalent of "the imaginative notion of pride" or just simply "pride". Correct me if I'm wrong.

Have you ever gone sky-diving? Is it pride you have in the parachute or is it confidence?

Have you ever gone swimming? Is it pride you have in the life-guard's presence or is it confidence?

It may be that Jesus does not will to save me, or it may be that God rejected me from before creation and never predestinated me to perseverence to the end.

Why?

I need to constantly search myself to see whether "I be of the Faith".

Here again is this curse called doubt!

Are we not infinitely unworthy?

In and of ourselves, yes, absolutely, without doubt.

And he is infinitely able!

Confidence, brother.

[Roselyn T]

Jan 7, 2008 11:01:50 GMT -5 Frank said:

nathan9 said:

Hey, coward TROLL... why, asking these personal questions and hide in the dark? why not tell me your real name.. what are you afraid of? you don't want to put your reputation and family name on the line? come on coward, troll....

People begin getting tired of your TROLL game... Some exes even call your kinds of trolling is Cowardly.

Why ask so many personal questions but you can't even post your first real name. Come on be a man/woman NOT a mouse.

Nathan:

Can you find it within yourself to be honest for a moment?

You rant continuously against the "trolls" for not revealing their name, address, phone number, e-mail address, employer name/address/phone number/e-mail address, date of birth, GPS coordinates, height, weight, social security number, hair color, eye color, gender, sexual preference, car make/model/year/color/condition, and a complete disclosure of their family tree, to name just a few.

But be honest Nathan. Is this really your issue? Or do you just have a problem with the substance of what they say?

You are a transparent fool.

We see through you Nathan.

When you don't like what someone says, you attack their persona as it appears here. You don't address the issue (likely because it would make you look even goofier). Instead you attack the messenger.

Sober up and read your posts.

Here we are in 2021, a d it's still the same! Great advice for nathan !

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2021 21:53:10 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Jan 7, 2008 11:01:50 GMT -5 Frank said:

Nathan:

Can you find it within yourself to be honest for a moment?

You rant continuously against the "trolls" for not revealing their name, address, phone number, e-mail address, employer name/address/phone number/e-mail address, date of birth, GPS coordinates, height, weight, social security number, hair color, eye color, gender, sexual preference, car make/model/year/color/condition, and a complete disclosure of their family tree, to name just a few.

But be honest Nathan. Is this really your issue? Or do you just have a problem with the substance of what they say?

You are a transparent fool.

We see through you Nathan.

When you don't like what someone says, you attack their persona as it appears here. You don't address the issue (likely because it would make you look even goofier). Instead you attack the messenger.

Sober up and read your posts.

Here we are in 2021, a d it's still the same! Great advice for nathan !

Resurrecting a dead 13 year old thread to attempt to bolster your lame rants? pathetic...

[Roselyn T]

Oct 29, 2021 22:22:08 GMT -5 @wally said:

Oct 29, 2021 21:53:10 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Here we are in 2021, a d it's still the same! Great advice for nathan !

Resurrecting a dead 13 year old thread to attempt to bolster your lame rants? pathetic...

Aww poor @wally, considering nathan's spruik about all the people that have come to the 2x2's because of him....a goggle search was very revealing !

[speak]

Oct 29, 2021 22:41:39 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Oct 29, 2021 22:22:08 GMT -5 @wally said:

Resurrecting a dead 13 year old thread to attempt to bolster your lame rants? pathetic...

Aww poor @wally , considering nathan 's spruik about all the people that have come to the 2x2's because of him....a goggle search was very revealing !

Wallies jealous that you didn't give him recognition as well   

[Deleted]

Oct 29, 2021 23:36:03 GMT -5 speak said:

Oct 29, 2021 22:41:39 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Aww poor @wally , considering nathan 's spruik about all the people that have come to the 2x2's because of him....a goggle search was very revealing !

Wallies jealous that you didn't give him recognition as well   

I believe the only thing you do here is post to hear the sound of your own voice(figuratively)...elder

[reborn]

Oct 29, 2021 22:41:39 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Oct 29, 2021 22:22:08 GMT -5 @wally said:

Resurrecting a dead 13 year old thread to attempt to bolster your lame rants? pathetic...

Aww poor @wally, considering nathan's spruik about all the people that have come to the 2x2's because of him....a goggle search was very revealing !

Just why exactly are you doing “Goggle” searches?

[Roselyn T]

Oct 30, 2021 0:50:27 GMT -5 reborn said:

Oct 29, 2021 22:41:39 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Aww poor @wally, considering nathan's spruik about all the people that have come to the 2x2's because of him....a goggle search was very revealing !

Just why exactly are you doing “Goggle” searches?

Well reborn if you missed nathan's post about what he shares on here "going viral" you wouldn't understand.
He is bragging about all the people who have come to meetings because of his posts...a search of TMB history is all that was needed to find this post....and if you goggle the 2x2s there is plenty of info !

[nathan]

Oct 30, 2021 2:51:49 GMT -5 Roselyn T said:

Oct 30, 2021 0:50:27 GMT -5 reborn said:

Just why exactly are you doing “Goggle” searches?

Well reborn if you missed nathan 's post about what he shares on here "going viral" you wouldn't understand.

He is bragging about all the people who have come to meetings because of his posts...a search of TMB history is all that was needed to find this post....and if you goggle the 2x2s there is plenty of info !

Someone said I did damage to the 2x2 fellowship with my postings on TMB so, I told that person people have come to gospel meetings, conventions, Sunday morning through my posts on the Internet.

Another person said NOBODY reads what I posted on TMB so, I told that person that is NOT True, many of my posts go on viral and that is true to these two false statements.