towit
Senior Member
. . .with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right. . .
Posts: 295
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Post by towit on Jun 13, 2006 9:27:50 GMT -5
Clay,
Nice responses. I agree with your responses and wanted to add my thoughts concerning your response in 2,3, and 4. The psychological impact of pre-marital sex can be damaging to future relationships. If the couple that is having pre-marital sex gets married- maybe everything will work out for them. But if they break up and wind up marrying someone else- then potential problems arise with "peace of mind" for both parties in regard to their new partners.
God has made us separate from the animals. Human beings do not have to give into primal urges. The liberal agenda in the United States says that it is OK to have sex- just practice" safe" sex. In other words- they are implying- we know that you, our kids, are no better than animals in your reasoning and self-control- so, here, take these birth control devices and go have fun.
I applaud anyone that fights for a higher standard of morality- and I look with dismay at anyone that doesn't fight for even a basic standard of morality. If our motto is "When in Rome do as the Romans" then welcome to our demise as a society- Rome fell in moral decay and decadence.
Sincerely,
towit
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Post by No change I see on Jun 13, 2006 10:28:35 GMT -5
Mr. AnythingGoes (aka Please list, more than one way, OK but): I did not say anything goes - that is your fear of what will happen if you do not maintain complete and absolute control over your children. If they have been taught right and wrong that is the best you can do. First you would have to define exactly what you mean by sex. Intercourse? Petting? Oral sex? Mutual masturbation? If you define sex along the same terms as virginity then except for vag inal intercourse anything goes. I believe children should be taught what is right and wrong as well as the other facts they will need to be successful and safe in life. Telling them simply to abstain rather than teaching them right and wrong as well as how to protect themselves if what they consider to be a morally correct decision does involve being intimate with someone they love does not protect them. What may be morally acceptable for one person could be very different from another. I believe everyone should have self control but, as an individual, they need to make the choices themselves. I do believe that the majority will engage in some form of sexual act that will but them at risk. Yes, we should teach them how to protect themselves.
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Post by Howard6 on Jun 13, 2006 10:43:07 GMT -5
Please list, more than one way, OK but, No change I see:
We agree.
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Post by Rome on Jun 13, 2006 11:13:21 GMT -5
Nice responses. I agree with your responses and wanted to add my thoughts concerning your response in 2,3, and 4. The psychological impact of pre-marital sex can be damaging to future relationships. If the couple that is having pre-marital sex gets married- maybe everything will work out for them. But if they break up and wind up marrying someone else- then potential problems arise with "peace of mind" for both parties in regard to their new partners. This seems to be more of an issue smeone has with trust. Because someone has had sex prior to being married does not mean they will not be faithful. In some cases the lack of sexual partners may contribute to a person looking outside their marriage They don't ave to but some will. And I can see why you might have these issues. No one is saying that our chldren are no better than animals. Well, no one except you. The reality is that some will have sex and it is better to have provided to them the information they need to keep safe. But I detest people wo try to impose their morality on others. People are individuals and need to decide for themselves. Now really, don't you think it might have been the unending civil wars, the excessive taxation, the instability of the rulers (26 emperors in 50 years), and the fact that the empire had grown too large to be governed or protected on all sides? The sad truth is that before Rome turned to Christianity there was a period of wild living that would make today's activities look like Victorian times. Yet it was when the orgies in Rome were at their height that Rome was thriving. Rome fell after all of that had been replaced with Christianity. If you want to blame someone for the Fall of Rome look to the Visigoths and the Vandals.
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Post by hi6 on Jun 13, 2006 11:56:40 GMT -5
As spiritual leaders, workers should talk about sexual issues. Given the importance of the workers to their friends, don't you think the workers should be the ones to discuss sexual issues? Not in a lewd way. But in a scientific way.
I wished the Victorian "don't talk about sex" mentality would disappear among some religious families in rural America, professing or otherwise.
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Post by Me too on Jun 13, 2006 12:19:32 GMT -5
I wished the Victorian "don't talk about sex" mentality would disappear among some religious families in rural America, professing or otherwise. That would indeed be a very big step in the right direction. We always talked openly about bodily functions when raising our children. People always seemed shocked when our kids would express the need to urinate or defecate. It was interesting watching a 3 year old explain the meaning of defecate to an adult. They got to learn about feces as well! We tried to keep questions and discussions about sex and sexual acts on the same level. They had a pe nis and a va gina, a scrotum and testicles, much, I am sad to say, to the horror of their grandparents! Like this forum, they felt that pe nis and vag ina were bad words and euphemisms should be used instead. Urinate is such an exact term. I have to wonder why people tell their children it is number one, pee, piddle, tinkle, wee-wee, whiz, take a leak, relieve oneself, drain the lizard, or any number of such words. The same is true for all body parts and functions.
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Post by justamom on Jun 13, 2006 12:36:09 GMT -5
I have always been one to call the body parts by their names...... I remember when my son was small and he told my mom that he had a pe nis, I thought she was going to die right on the spot because he used that word... she thought I should teach him to call it by another name.... I asked her why? You don't call your arms or legs by another name do you? she couldn't answer me...
I have always been open with my kids about sex .... I don't remember my mom ever discussing it with me when I was young...
I have done my best to teach my kids right and wrong.. now that they are teens it is up to them to make the right choice for their life.... if they make the wrong choice then they have to face the consenquences...
My daughter is now at the age where she is dating..... I can't be with her 24/7 and I know that her harmones are ragin... that is just reality... so I have always told her I hope she waits to have sex till she is married.. BUT if she doesn't then I want her to come to me and tell me she is thinking about having sex so we can discuss about putting her on the pill...that is reality... I can't keep her locked up in the house till she is old..
Last year she had a bf and they were talking about having sex... she did come to me and ask me if we could go to the dr. so she could get on the pill... .. I sat her down and told her that she needed to take a week to really think about her decision.. and if after that week and she still wanted to go on the pill then we would go to the dr.... well she thought about it for a week.. came to me and said she didn't need to go on the pill because she didn't want to have sex with her bf... not long after that .. they broke up... I am proud of her... for 1. coming to me and discussing going on the pill.. and 2. to make a wise choice and decide not to go on the pill....
I am not sure that I would of been comfortable having the workers discuss sex with me... I feel that it is a parents job.....
*gets reading for the immorality slams that I know are coming my way*
Have a wonderful week.....
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 12:36:58 GMT -5
This post is for the guy in this thread that can't stick to one name.
I have read what you have posted and I have taken your advice...
I sent my 15 year old son to school today...
He knows right from wrong but...
...just in case he decides to get involved with a girl, I talked to him about STD's, pregnancy, and oral sex, then I gave him a pack of condoms.
...just in case he decides to get crossways with a classmate or teacher, I talked to him about improving his aim then gave him a box of ammunition and a bullet-proof vest.
After all, we can teach our kids what's right, but they're gonna do what they're gonna do and we can't stop them so we need to prepare them.
I hope your proud of me now.
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Post by That is just great on Jun 13, 2006 12:52:33 GMT -5
I have always been one to call the body parts by their names...... I remember when my son was small and he told my mom that he had a pe nis, I thought she was going to die right on the spot because he used that word... she thought I should teach him to call it by another name.... I asked her why? You don't call your arms or legs by another name do you? she couldn't answer me... I have always been open with my kids about sex .... I don't remember my mom ever discussing it with me when I was young... I have done my best to teach my kids right and wrong.. now that they are teens it is up to them to make the right choice for their life.... if they make the wrong choice then they have to face the consenquences... My daughter is now at the age where she is dating..... I can't be with her 24/7 and I know that her harmones are ragin... that is just reality... so I have always told her I hope she waits to have sex till she is married.. BUT if she doesn't then I want her to come to me and tell me she is thinking about having sex so we can discuss about putting her on the pill...that is reality... I can't keep her locked up in the house till she is old.. Last year she had a bf and they were talking about having sex... she did come to me and ask me if we could go to the dr. so she could get on the pill... .. I sat her down and told her that she needed to take a week to really think about her decision.. and if after that week and she still wanted to go on the pill then we would go to the dr.... well she thought about it for a week.. came to me and said she didn't need to go on the pill because she didn't want to have sex with her bf... not long after that .. they broke up... I am proud of her... for 1. coming to me and discussing going on the pill.. and 2. to make a wise choice and decide not to go on the pill.... I am not sure that I would of been comfortable having the workers discuss sex with me... I feel that it is a parents job..... *gets reading for the immorality slams that I know are coming my way* Have a wonderful week..... You must be crazy! Let me get this right: 1) You taught your daughter all about her body and sex. 2) You taught her the difference between right and wrong. 3) You expressed your desire that she wait until she was married before having sex. 4) You opened the door so she would not feel like a bad person if she decided on a path that was different from yours. 5) You offered her a way to reduce her chances of having an unwanted child. 6) You left the decision up to her. What a surprise - she did the right thing. We need to trust that our children will do the right thing. You said "I am not sure that I would of been comfortable having the workers discuss sex with me... I feel that it is a parents job..... ". It sounds like you have done an excellent job.
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Post by Ohh no on Jun 13, 2006 13:07:33 GMT -5
...just in case he decides to get involved with a girl, I talked to him about STD's, pregnancy, and oral sex, then I gave him a pack of condoms. Good start but you forgot to mention intercourse. Maybe the instructions on the condom package will help him out. You seem to get most of the way but are always forgetting some crucial part - you didn't give him a weapon! What is he supposed to do with the box of bullets? Oh, we can stop them. Chain them in the house! Yes, the sarcastic child I have always wanted.
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Post by justamom on Jun 13, 2006 14:52:48 GMT -5
To That is just great: Thanks for the complement about being doing an excellent job at being a parent.... I never had an open relationship with my mom so when I became a mother I promised myself that I would have one with my kids. I am glad that I do.. my daughter can talk to me about any subject and not feel ashamed. I would rather her come to me and get her information then going to her friends and get wrong info... I must say though that I have a very wonderful daughter... she has yet to rebel against me..... I strongly feel that the reason she has not rebeled against me is due to the fact that she can talk to me about anything.... That doesn't mean that she doesn't ever try to stretch the boundries and see if she can get away with things... cuz she does try... but when she realized that the boundries have not changed and in fact they get smaller once she has not been honest with me.. she falls right back into place and grounds herself again.... a valuable lesson in life I feel... You are so right that we have to trust our kids.... we as parents have to let them go and see if they will make the right choices when they come to a bump in the road..... Have a great day...
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 15:01:08 GMT -5
You seem to get most of the way but are always forgetting some crucial part - you didn't give him a weapon! What is he supposed to do with the box of bullets? The gun? Just like a VAG1NA! They're not hard to find. If he wants one he'll find it.
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 15:06:02 GMT -5
Yes, the sarcastic child I have always wanted. Me? Sarcastic? No- I was just bringing the new-age BS notion "give them a condom 'cause we can't stop them" to its inevitable conclusion.
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Troublemaker problem
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Post by Troublemaker problem on Jun 13, 2006 16:24:52 GMT -5
Yes, the sarcastic child I have always wanted. Me? Sarcastic? No- I was just bringing the new-age BS notion "give them a condom 'cause we can't stop them" to its inevitable conclusion. No one said to give anyone a condom. Education was, and still is, the key. Let them know the facts, not the emotional BS. If they make the informed decision to be intimate they will at least know how to be safe. Remember the anti-drug movie "Reefer Madness"? Unsubstantiated claims. Ridiculous claims about the dangers of drugs. People using drugs loved it because it was such fun. No one believed it and, for a long time after it was screened, nothing else that the government presented regarding drugs. The inevitable conclusion might just be what JustAMom wrote above - the exact outcome we would like for our kids. Of course, you could just give them a box of condoms and tell them to screw everything that moves; give them a gun and bullets and teach them to settle their differences with force rather than reason; you could keep your sons and daughters in the house and, barring, incest, they will not get into trouble. But these are not really solutions. They are knee-jerk reactions to dealing with subjects that people feel uncomfortable with. Every parent wants their children to remain chaste until they discover that special person. No parent wants their child to be hurt in a relationship. But most parents also want their children to grow into well rounded independent individuals. Not clones of themselves but individuals.
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 17:57:11 GMT -5
No one said to give anyone a condom. So you don't like condoms. It is pointless to teach a child right from wrong and then follow it up with "okay, here's how to avoid having trouble (STD, pregnant, caught, etc.) when you do wrong".
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Post by Poor Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 19:00:54 GMT -5
So you don't like condoms. Not having an understanding of the English language sadly puts you at a severe disadvantage. I have never said I did not like condoms just as I never said to give them to our kids. I said they should be instructed in the dangers, consequences, and be given some options available to them should they decide that they wish to be intimate with someone they love. Or, for that matter, with someone they just met. I can see how you would arrive at this conclusion when, as far as I can tell, you want to apply your morality to everyone. There are some people who do not think having sex, whether that be kissing, French kissing, oral-genital sex, frottage, through the clothes petting, skin-on-skin petting, manual stimulation through clothes, mutual manual stimulation without clothes, intercourse, or any of the hundreds of ways that people have discovered to provide pleasure to themselves and perhaps another person is a moral sin. Seemingly you do. So use your self control and avoid it.
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 19:41:26 GMT -5
So you don't like condoms. Not having an understanding of the English language sadly puts you at a severe disadvantage. I have never said I did not like condoms just as I never said to give them to our kids. I said they should be instructed in the dangers, consequences, and be given some options available to them should they decide that they wish to be intimate with someone they love. Or, for that matter, with someone they just met. I can see how you would arrive at this conclusion when, as far as I can tell, you want to apply your morality to everyone. There are some people who do not think having sex, whether that be kissing, French kissing, oral-genital sex, frottage, through the clothes petting, skin-on-skin petting, manual stimulation through clothes, mutual manual stimulation without clothes, intercourse, or any of the hundreds of ways that people have discovered to provide pleasure to themselves and perhaps another person is a moral sin. Seemingly you do. So use your self control and avoid it. Not having an understanding of the English language sadly puts you at a severe disadvantage.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jun 13, 2006 19:41:59 GMT -5
Actually, one worker did speak on Sex. I cant remember what year, probably within the last 10 or so... maybe a bit longer... at Mountain Peak Convention (Texas). It was VERY interesting.
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Post by Troublemaker on Jun 13, 2006 19:44:00 GMT -5
Actually, one worker did speak on Sex. I cant remember what year, probably within the last 10 or so... maybe a bit longer... at Mountain Peak Convention (Texas). It was VERY interesting. Same at Elizabeth CO several years ago.
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Post by roman empire on Jun 13, 2006 19:53:32 GMT -5
I thought the Roman Empire fell due to it having over-extended itself, and the agression of barbarian tribes. When was the Roman Empire ever a model of high moral standards?
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happiness is a warm gun
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Post by happiness is a warm gun on Jun 13, 2006 20:05:43 GMT -5
When I feel you in my arms...& I feel my finger on your trigger...happines is a warm gun, mama.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jun 13, 2006 20:07:55 GMT -5
A closer reading of this makes me wonder where in the world some of you guys were living when you still attending meetings.
I've never heard of anyone being kicked out for being pregnant out of wedlock. I know many unwed mommas. And, I will not deny that I myself conceived out of wedlock (not like it makes it right, but we were engaged and 3 months away from the wedding).
I dont hide the fact, and didn't try to cover it up when our baby was born 6 months after we married.
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towit
Senior Member
. . .with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right. . .
Posts: 295
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Post by towit on Jun 13, 2006 20:20:46 GMT -5
I thought the Roman Empire fell due to it having over-extended itself, and the agression of barbarian tribes. When was the Roman Empire ever a model of high moral standards? Since a couple of readers have decided that I am making up the theory of Roman decadence HELPING lead to its demise, I decided to post at least one article on it. You can do the Google search yourself for more articles- pro and con- and decide. Also, there are several books on the subject as well. Mainstream theories about Rome's fall can be split into several general categories:
"Declining empire" theories Generally, these theories argue that the Roman Empire might have survived, but due to some combination of circumstances didn't. Some historians in this camp believe that Rome "brought it on themselves," i.e., ensured their own collapse by either misguided policies or degradation of character.
Vegetius The historian Vegetius theorized and has recently been supported by the historian Arthur Ferrill that the Roman Empire declined and fell due to a combination of increasing contact with barbarians and the subsequent "barbarization", as well as a surge in decadence and the following lethargy. This resulted in complacency and ill-discipline among the legions, making it primarily a military issue.
Quoted from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Roman_EmpireAnother interesting theory- not mentioned in the article- is the widespread use of lead as the material for plates, goblets, and eating utencils. Lead lowers one's IQ dramatically and also causes other brain damage. Imagine an entire populous with lead poisoning- it would be devasting for more than one generation.
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Post by Sadly on Jun 13, 2006 20:57:49 GMT -5
Not having an understanding of the English language sadly puts you at a severe disadvantage. Gee, I thought I was following along quite well. To the best of my knowledge I have not misquoted you or attributed anything to you that you did not post. You, on the other hand, have at least twice attributed words to me that I did not post. How about posting in response to the actual words that are posted, requesting clarification if they are ambiguous, rather than making things up to support your POV. Here's a start: What type of intimate behavior do you consider immoral before marriage? Or you could go in reverse - what type of intimate behavior do you consider moral prior to marriage? I thought I would start with an easy one since this would be the advice you must have already formulated to provide to your children (huge assumption on my part that you also have children). Let's be friends!
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dea
Junior Member
Posts: 76
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Post by dea on Jun 13, 2006 21:04:41 GMT -5
Gospel meeting is not the appropriate place to talk in depth about sex.
We've had young people meetings where we discuss sex, drugs, suicide, homosexuality, dress, etc. And it's a place where the young people can anonymously ask questions (via written on paper).
One of my degrees is in Public Health. On my univiersity campus, I taught some sex education. I was a little embarrassed when the workers wanted to come have lunch with the young people on campus during our sex education week.
I was talking to one sister worker and she said that, "we need more sex education". She also encouraged me to continue educating people about sex.
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Post by good points on Jun 13, 2006 21:13:36 GMT -5
ToWit
All good points.
I am not sure there was a major cause for the fall. Like so many endeavors there were the right combination of events that added up to spell doom.
I do think that the Roman army, after being away from Rome for years became complacent and after forming a family with the natives were not keen to fight against them. Ambitious rulers, even starting with Cesar, spread the troops very thin in their drive to gain territory. Had Cesar not won the history of Rome would have been much shorter.
Regarding lead - it was not just the flatware and the dishes but the water supply pipes and even more deadly, it was used as a coloring agent for paint and makeup. The same is true of mercury. Cinnabar was one of the colors that was brought back from Egypt and spread from there northward.
Although people would like to say Rome declined because of low moral standards, this is not the case. While it is true that Roman citizens had become lazy and took freedom for granted, the hight of the Empire was also the hight of the era that people refer to as decadent. However, as the popularity of Christianity spread, the Romans ceased their decadent ways. Was their bawdy behavior the stuff that fueled the Roman legions and when it was gone the army was left with what today would be known as couch potatoes.
It was after Christianity became the official religion of the empire that things began to go downhill. I doubt it is cause and effect.
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Post by Rational on Jun 13, 2006 21:15:14 GMT -5
Gospel meeting is not the appropriate place to talk in depth about sex. We've had young people meetings where we discuss sex, drugs, suicide, homosexuality, dress, etc. And it's a place where the young people can anonymously ask questions (via written on paper). One of my degrees is in Public Health. On my univiersity campus, I taught some sex education. I was a little embarrassed when the workers wanted to come have lunch with the young people on campus during our sex education week. I was talking to one sister worker and she said that, "we need more sex education". She also encouraged me to continue educating people about sex. You may be too rational to be posting here!
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Post by OneName on Jun 13, 2006 21:20:45 GMT -5
This post is for the guy in this thread that can't stick to one name. I think you would be surprized to learn that it is not just one guy but at least 3 that I am aware of. And that is not counting my multiple personalities!
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