|
Post by Jessi on Jun 16, 2006 17:55:03 GMT -5
While I've had some horrifying moments in the 2x2s, it by no means ruined my life. I wouldnt call it a cult, although in some areas of the world, the level of strictness is suffocating! Thank goodness its not all like that. The use of words is interesting. You say you have had "horrifying moments". I find it difficult to even imagine what could happen in relation to any 2x2 related activity that would be horrifying. Were you in danger of dying? Were you tortured? What was the source of the horror? This is not meant to make fun: just wondering what you experienced that would even cause you to use that word. As far as the cult word - I believe most use it for one of a couple of reasons: 1) I think the first and foremost it is used for its shock value. 2) It is used as an excuse as to why people didn't leave sooner than they did. "Oh. I was in a cult and couldn't leave. I was trapped". As the saying goes "No one held a gun to your head". And if they did and you didn't go to the authorities well, shame on you. There are way too many people not willing to take any responsibility for their lives and ever so willing to place the blame anywhere else. The 2x2s are a group just like any other group. They have their good points and their bad points. They have no more power over people than the power people give them. If you let the workers run (ruin) your life then you really have no one to blame but yourself. The 2x2s are a group just like any other group. They have their good points and their bad points. They have no more power over people than the power people give them. If you let the workers run (ruin) your life then you really have no one to blame but yourself. [/quote] The 2x2s are not just a group like any other group. It is generational. That means that attached to my decision to search out the real Jesus was the idea that I would lose my family. And so I have. Because they do not understand the love of Christ in that all professed Christians, whether or not you agree on some minor and debatable issues, are brothers and sisters for whom Christ also died. You would be surprised at the horrifying things that happen when there is secrecy and deception and no one writes anything down or when people look the other way or sweep things under the rug for the sake of a black eye on the "church" or the "workers". I thought things that happened ruined my life. Until I realized that some Christians' whole lives are nothing but pain until God uses them for His Glory. Then everything becomes clear and evident. Joseph (Gen 37-50) - From a very young age suffered misery, pain and rejection. Unloved, put in a pit, sold as a slave, put in prison . . . But he said to his brothers, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." (Gen 50:20). He was a type of Christ and is symbolic *not by accident* of another who would come to save his people. Your last statement is indicative of true 2x2/F&W justice and the most unlike God's justice and God's righteous love for hurting people. When someone asks for forgiveness or mentions that they have been hurt, that's what I see a lot of in the cult. - and all my childhood. When Jesus forgave people, did he make them writhe in the dirt a little first? Did God, in Is 6, make Isaiah suffer a little first and say, "You little creep, you deserve what you get for having a dirty mouth. You just suffer before me! Bow down!" No. He made a merciful provision. He had the angel touch Isaiah's lips with a hot coal and said to him, " Your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for." 2x2s, it seems, and those with one foot in and one foot out cannot just simply forgive. They must beat a little, quote a verse, tell a fault, revel in another's other's pain, tell them who's fault it really is. I found no mercy. I find none today. That's one of telling signs that the FORM of worship and the unwritten doctrine of the 2x2 CULT, sadly, is outside the Kingdom of God. The love of Jesus cannot be found outside the Glory of the Holy One, Jesus Christ, the Lord. Christ's Forever, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Jun 16, 2006 19:13:57 GMT -5
If you let the workers run (ruin) your life then you really have no one to blame but yourself. ...protect the system at all costs. Well done.
|
|
|
Post by So clear on Jun 16, 2006 19:23:49 GMT -5
The 2x2s are not just a group like any other group. It is generational. That means that attached to my decision to search out the real Jesus was the idea that I would lose my family. How does this differ from the Muslim family that turns their back on someone who leaves? Of the Catholic family who leaves? Of the Amish? Mennonites? JWs? Mormons? The 2x2 are just not that much different.Those leaving any of the other groups could very well feel the same.I wouldn't be surprised at anything people would do as individuals. We are talking about the group and what the group does not the activities of single people. If that is the case one could say that the Catholics church sexually abused people when it was the activities of a small number of priests. There is no one claiming that any of the 2x2 are Jesus. Yes He did. He had an angel burn his lips with a hot coal. No. He made a merciful provision. He had the angel touch Isaiah's lips with a hot coal and said to him, " Your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for." [/quote]Careful. Is being burned on the lips with a hot coal supposed to be a treat? Was the treatment of Nadab and Abihu merciful? The Old Test. is not a good source to show the kindness of God. No one said they did not have their faults. But don't blame them for the actions you did or did not take. They are responsible for their acts and you are responsible for yours. If that is your belief then you should find a group that worships in a way that meets your standards. You have the ability to leave (as I take it you have). Why blame them for your inability to leave sooner? You may have had to choose between the group or family. Life is full of hard decisions.
|
|
|
Post by The Blame Game on Jun 16, 2006 19:38:07 GMT -5
If you let the workers run (ruin) your life then you really have no one to blame but yourself. ...protect the system at all costs. Well done. There is no system to protect. People can take responsibility for their actions or they can blame others for the state they are in. I see a lot of people blaming the workers. But no one takes control of your life unless you allow it. Sure, it is embarressing to look back and see that you allowed people to control you. But who is at fault? It's like loaning people money because you don't want to say "No" and then complaining that people borrowed money. You too are following the rule: Point the boney finger of indignation anywhere but at yourself.
|
|
|
Post by who is it on Jun 16, 2006 19:51:18 GMT -5
...protect the system at all costs. Well done. There is no system to protect. People can take responsibility for their actions or they can blame others for the state they are in. I see a lot of people blaming the workers. But no one takes control of your life unless you allow it. Sure, it is embarressing to look back and see that you allowed people to control you. But who is at fault? It's like loaning people money because you don't want to say "No" and then complaining that people borrowed money. You too are following the rule: Point the boney finger of indignation anywhere but at yourself. is it syd?
|
|
|
Post by dem bones on Jun 16, 2006 20:09:46 GMT -5
I loved the workers I trusted them I gave them the best I had I evangelized to bring outsiders to their meetings I changed plans for them, to be available, took days off from work I made sure I had a spare room (or bed available) for them I loved them I trusted them
and I did not examine closely that they were not scriptural and I did not pay attention to the warnings and I, who came from the outside do have to accept responsibility for loving, trusting and not closely examining.....
but the b/r grew up loving, trusting, and knowing nothing else
point the bony finger at myself for unconditionally loving, trusting I am taking control and it is difficult I am sorting through the twisted scripture to find THE TRUTH I am praying
and, I am trying to help others to think, to examine and to carefully examine
point the bony finger at myself-I accept my part in loving and trusting to the point where I did not see my error in standing up to join the 2 x 2 religion
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 16, 2006 20:40:10 GMT -5
The 2x2s are not just a group like any other group. It is generational. That means that attached to my decision to search out the real Jesus was the idea that I would lose my family. How does this differ from the Muslim family that turns their back on someone who leaves? Of the Catholic family who leaves? Of the Amish? Mennonites? JWs? Mormons? The 2x2 are just not that much different.Those leaving any of the other groups could very well feel the same.I wouldn't be surprised at anything people would do as individuals. We are talking about the group and what the group does not the activities of single people. If that is the case one could say that the Catholics church sexually abused people when it was the activities of a small number of priests. There is no one claiming that any of the 2x2 are Jesus. Yes He did. He had an angel burn his lips with a hot coal. No. He made a merciful provision. He had the angel touch Isaiah's lips with a hot coal and said to him, " Your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for." Careful. Is being burned on the lips with a hot coal supposed to be a treat? Was the treatment of Nadab and Abihu merciful? The Old Test. is not a good source to show the kindness of God. No one said they did not have their faults. But don't blame them for the actions you did or did not take. They are responsible for their acts and you are responsible for yours. If that is your belief then you should find a group that worships in a way that meets your standards. You have the ability to leave (as I take it you have). Why blame them for your inability to leave sooner? You may have had to choose between the group or family. Life is full of hard decisions. [/quote] It WAS a treat for Isaiah because his sins were atoned for. He was forgiven for his sins so he could be used by God to be a mouthpiece for his people. Think cauterize. Think SIN and Holy, Holy, Holy. Do these go toether at all? These systems or groups you mentioned. You are right. The 2x2s are a lot like them, because those FORMS of worship also are outside the Kingdom of God. They are not Biblical. They rely on the power in man to get to heaven. That's why you say "it's your fault." Again, I feel the love of the 2x2s, zealous to protect their system, even at the cost of souls. I am sorry for you. I don't know why you feel you have to hide to defend your faith. Are you really naming the Name of the Lord if you hide? Adam and Eve hid in the Garden of Eden, behind trees. Hid from the Lord God - because they knew they had become sinners and w/no way to cover themselves. God made a merciful provision -- blood had to be shed for this. God help them and Lord, change their hearts to see your Truth and Love. Christ's Forever, Jessi
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 20:51:35 GMT -5
Well, I was horrified many times while I was a truther. As I have hundreds of horrifying stories I could tell I will limit myself. And it is possible that I am more easily horrified than others, so you may want to take that into account.
I was horrified many times when I observed senior overseers such as Sydney Holt, Eldon T. And Willis Prop put extreme pressure on vulnerable elderly people to leave their estates to the truth. My family assisted in many such schemes, and I was sickened, disgusted, and yes horrified.
On a slightly lower outrage level, we would often make fun of other friends behind their backs in an extremely cruel and juvenile way. One particularly mean spirited brother worker Joe Schoen, was extremely vicious about people who would go visit the restroom while he was preaching in gospel meeting. He would jeer, imitate their walk, etc. Some of these people were elderly and had bladder control problems etc.
Yes, I have been horrified many times. However, I don't blame the system, every group has a few jerks in it.
|
|
like we said before
Guest
|
Post by like we said before on Jun 16, 2006 21:01:29 GMT -5
you have done a pretty good job at passing jokes and etc. concerning cults which continues to show that you have not understood what a cult is or your just becoming plain ridiculous.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2006 21:13:31 GMT -5
I was referring to the conversation about whether the word horrifiying could be applied to experiences within the group. My post was not about whether or not the group is a cult. I apologize if I confused you.
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 16, 2006 21:26:46 GMT -5
So Clear wrote: If that is your belief then you should find a group that worships in a way that meets your standards.
Jesus Christ is my only standard and His Word is the only Truth. Jesus Lord God. No group.
There is only one way and it's not a group: The Lord is ONE Mark 12:29 NO ONE CAN COME TO GOD EXCEPT THROUGH THE SON - Jn 14:6 NO ONE WILL COME TO THE SON UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM - Jn 6:44 WHEN THEY COME, HE WILL NOT TURN THEM AWAY - Jn 6:37
Nothing in here about a group. Salvation is individual. Everyone must seek out his own salvation with fear and trembling (Phillipians 2:12).
Love in Christ, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by Consider this on Jun 16, 2006 22:00:00 GMT -5
It WAS a treat for Isaiah because his sins were atoned for. He was forgiven for his sins so he could be used by God to be a mouthpiece for his people. Think cauterize. Think SIN and Holy, Holy, Holy. Do these go toether at all? It depends on how you look at it. Think sensitive lips. Think red hot coal. That is pain. You said there was no punishment. What was the point of the pain? Wouldn't ice have been a kind jesture? I think most of those groups would argue with you. I was only pointing out that the 2x2 are not the only group with those beliefs. No it is not. I said it because you, and only you, are responsible for your actions. Standing before God you will not be able to say "IIt was their fault. They made me feel that I couldn't do what I felt was right". I have not been to a meeting for over 20 years. I am not naming any God. I was part of the same group you were. My experiences were the direct result of my actions, as were yours. I fail to see how taking responsibility for your own actions protects any group?
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Jun 16, 2006 22:59:51 GMT -5
There is no system to protect. Then your feathers got ruffled for nothing, and you have nothing about which to be so defensive.
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 16, 2006 23:11:25 GMT -5
OIC. I THOUGHT YOU WERE A 2x2. MY MISTAKE. SORRY TO ASSOCIATE YOU IN ANY WAY WITH THE CULT . . . .
I think the word KINDNESS must be defined in God's terms, not ours. Jesus was beaten to a bloody pulp until he was unrecognizable as a man and died MY sinner's death upon a cross. The same man he created slapped him in the face. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter and he did not open his mouth. And yet was it not a kindness in a awesome loving way that he died for for His people and took our punishment upon himself for our sin? That is God's justice, not man's.
Is 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts . . .
Recognizing one's own sin compared to Holy God is a painful and traumatic experience. Here was Isaiah, face to face with Him. A holy man of God saw the Lord God and he cried out . . . WOE IS ME FOR I AM UNDONE! This was a holy man, screaming out in pain because he understood that compared to the Holiness of God, he was a worm.
Of course most of those groups would argue with me. The true Gospel is offensive. But I just tell them. God will do the rest. He knows who are His remnant among the peoples. In the end, either now or before the judgement seat of Christ, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philip 2:12, Rom 14:11, Is 45:23).
MY EXPERIENCES WERE A DIRECT RESULT OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF HOLY GOD, not my actions. That is the basis of Christianity, really. NOT YOUR DOING, but GOD'S. My God. The God I name above all names. He is true.
May you also find peace in Him and Love,
Christ's Forever, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 16, 2006 23:21:25 GMT -5
Uh - I see Mennonite, which I missed when I read the post. I take back for the Mennonites what I said. If their belief is that salvation is individual and through Jesus Christ alone, then they are Christians. I went to a recent Mennonite service where we played guitars for them. They preach Christ. I just wanted to correct this -- I believe that anyone who preaches Christ - the TRUE CHRIST and salvation through Jesus Christ alone is a Christian.
Jesus is King over all, Jessi
|
|
|
Post by Did you forget on Jun 17, 2006 0:43:20 GMT -5
Uh - I see Mennonite, which I missed when I read the post. I take back for the Mennonites what I said. If their belief is that salvation is individual and through Jesus Christ alone, then they are Christians. I went to a recent Mennonite service where we played guitars for them. They preach Christ. I just wanted to correct this -- I believe that anyone who preaches Christ - the TRUE CHRIST and salvation through Jesus Christ alone is a Christian. Jesus is King over all, Jessi The Amish? The point was that leaving any close knit group is difficult. It does not make the group a cult. Some people will have more trouble than others. If you have no identity outside the group it is not a fault of the group but a character flaw. You have allowed this to happen because it was comfortable. Giving up that comfort to be independent is difficult.
|
|
|
Post by Almost nothing on Jun 17, 2006 0:45:13 GMT -5
There is no system to protect. Then your feathers got ruffled for nothing, and you have nothing about which to be so defensive. Nothing other than your condescending and condemning attitude. But we are all used to it.
|
|
|
Post by Reality on Jun 17, 2006 1:16:03 GMT -5
I think the word KINDNESS must be defined in God's terms, not ours. Jesus was beaten to a bloody pulp until he was unrecognizable as a man and died MY sinner's death upon a cross. Funny, I don't ever remember reading anywhere in the bible that Jesus was "beaten to a bloody pulp until he was unrecognizable as a man". That sounds more like the Gospel According to Mel Gibson. Besides, how would have his mother, and his mother, his aunt, Cleophas' wife, and Mary Magdalene known who he was? I am not sure what Bible you are getting all this from. I do not recall any man slapping Jesus. Hitting with a reed. No slapping. As for not opening his mouth, this is true for 3 of the 4 gospels. In John he does talk to Pilate. I think I see - you are self editing as you quote. There is nothing in the verse in Isaiah that says anything about being in pain. Wouldn't this mean then that all will be saved? Well, that seems like a great out. Not my fault - God made me do it. Can't get a much better excuse than that!
|
|
|
Post by Jessi on Jun 17, 2006 8:41:20 GMT -5
Reality:
Romans were experts at killing and making it a slow and torturous death. You could look up historically how and why they did this to understand the horrendous way Jesus died.
By the time they were finished with some, their intestines would come out their sides as the pieces of bone tore out chunks of flesh. Mel Gibson’s rendition, I think, at least concerning the beating, has been the most historically true movie I’ve ever seen on the death of the Lord.
Here is the scripture you asked for: Is 53, Is 50:3, Mark 14:65, Luke 22:64
Jessi wrote: MY EXPERIENCES WERE A DIRECT RESULT OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF HOLY GOD, not my actions. That is the basis of Christianity, really. NOT YOUR DOING, but GOD'S.
Reality wrote: Well, that seems like a great out. Not my fault - God made me do it. Can't get a much better excuse than that!
Jessi’s answer: Yes, friend, I am a sinner. THE GLORY OF THE CROSS is the greatest OUT there ever was or ever will be. Because of King Jesus, it ISN’T my fault. My sins are nailed to the cross (Col 2:14). I have been forgiven! I never had a better excuse for my sin and my outrageous acts against God in my life. All praise and glory be to Him who does not count my transgressions against me (Ps 32:1).
I hope God blesses you with an understanding of His Word, given only through the Holy Spirit; truly, the spiritual man is taught by God.
I Cor 2:14 – The natural person does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Three in One, Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God,
Jessi
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jun 17, 2006 16:21:49 GMT -5
First of all, thanks for the welcome back. Appreciated.
Secondly, When I say Horrifying, maybe it wouldn't be horrifying to you, but it was pretty darn horrifying to me when an elder's wife started passing rumors about me (I was 11-12ish at the time) being a wh0re and other ridiculously untrue gossips through half of the state I was raised in (just because she saw me sitting with an older boy at convention). She quickly spread the nonsense to my friends parents, who no longer allowed their children to hang out with me. I wasn't invited to get togethers or professing gatherings anymore. My parents professing friends stopped hanging out with them... except for one of them, who, when she heard the rumors, called my mom and said she knew it was a bunch of bull and would stand up for our family.
Now, more than 10 years later, I still have an urge to strangle the woman every time I see her (which, thank goodness, is not very often). My teenage years were a mess because of her. (But, she has a history of doing such things, and the workers have had deep discussions with her which are basically useless.) Of course, some of the fault lies within the people who didn't bother to check the facts with us, but instead believed these horrible lies.
How would you feel if someone was telling everyone in your church that your twelve year old daughter was sleeping around with everyone, was most-definitely into drugs, etc etc, when, in truth, your daughter hadn't even kissed a boy and wouldn't have even considered trying drugs (at least, at that time... but later in my teen years, I did experiment with marijuana)? I feel bad for my parents, who had to go through this with me!
It's amazing how quickly one idiot can ruin a girls reputation!
(Apologies, thinking about it makes me angry.)
|
|
|
Post by camper on Jun 17, 2006 18:00:03 GMT -5
I remember the power that being raised within "the friends" had over me. But am older now and see things diff now. When you are raised in any culture or religion, it has a power over you. Its because its all you know.and have ever known. If I was raised a devout Buddist, I would prob think it only was the right way and everything else was wrong. Does this mean I need to escape the Buddist religion? Maybe if I was being molested by some monk but If it made me happy. Why leave!!! So If you want to classify "the truth" as a cult", Why? What is your interpretation classifies it as such. I left!!!! Never looked back!! No one forced me to come back!! More and more people are looking for excuses for who they are and why they have problems. Dont blame your life on others, blame yourself!!
|
|
|
Post by Oh Jessi on Jun 17, 2006 18:31:51 GMT -5
Reality: Romans were experts at killing and making it a slow and torturous death. You could look up historically how and why they did this to understand the horrendous way Jesus died. By the time they were finished with some, their intestines would come out their sides as the pieces of bone tore out chunks of flesh. Mel Gibson’s rendition, I think, at least concerning the beating, has been the most historically true movie I’ve ever seen on the death of the Lord. I know what the point of the torture was. But you have read the bible as well. People with intestines hanging out do not walk and carry a large timber. The mutilation was not enough to be even mentioned in any of the books. As to the historical accuracy, no one knows just what Jesus was subjected to so it would be difficult to judge whether it was the most accurate or not. Unless I am mistaken the bible mentions the fact that not a bone in his body was broken. How exactly does that match with the movie version? I see the slap. I stand corrected. But it was not in silence that he was led away. He answered some of the questions. So you take no responsibility for your actions? This seems unbelievable to me. I am not just talking about sin but everything. You kill someone. Oh well, you are a sinner and, because of Jesus, it isn't your fault. Somehow this doesn't seem right. Thank You.
|
|
|
Post by responsibility on Jun 17, 2006 18:36:30 GMT -5
If you let the workers run (ruin) your life then you really have no one to blame but yourself. ...protect the system at all costs. Well done. I disagree with you ilylo. Where does personal responsibility figure into all this? Isn't each person responsible for their own actions? I think so!!!
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Jun 17, 2006 19:12:55 GMT -5
I'm glad I'm not the only one who insists that the workers be held accountable for their actions.
|
|
I see what you mean but
Guest
|
Post by I see what you mean but on Jun 17, 2006 20:27:27 GMT -5
Secondly, When I say Horrifying, maybe it wouldn't be horrifying to you, but it was pretty darn horrifying to me when an elder's wife started passing rumors about me (I was 11-12ish at the time) being a wh0re and other ridiculously untrue gossips through half of the state I was raised in (just because she saw me sitting with an older boy at convention). You are talking to someone who was seen leaving the convention grounds between meetings and missed the next meeting. Mind you, we were picking up a friend at the train (which was late) but you can imagine the gossip. There was a difference. We were both 18. My solution? I approached the only person who saw us leave and confronted her directly. I said what she was doing was wrong and that I expected her to correct the misinformation she had been giving people. It worked that time. In less than a year it didn't make any difference anyway, the 2x2s and I went our separate ways. As a parent, I would take the same stand. I would approach the person and find out why they were doing what they were and request that they rectify it. This is not a 2x2 issue. It is a social issue, flaw, if you will, which shows up in any close knit group where people take great pride in being each others keeper. To the extreme! It is also amazing how quickly the gossip(person) will back down when confronted directly. Of course, there are the social implications to take into account. She was the elders wife. It wouldn't stop me but I am fortunate to be tempered a little by my wife. Don't worry about it. Thinking about it makes me smile when I think about the the look on the woman's face as we both stood and confronted her. The point is, I believe the 2x2s and groups like them consist of a higher percentage of socially inapt people. Perhaps it is because of their lack of socialization that they are attracted to the warms welcoming group at the start and then remain as an accepted member of the group. It gives them the social circle they have been looking for. It is not as apparent in a 2x2 setting but if you go to, for example, a non-2x2 wedding the social uncomfortableness really stands out for a surprisingly high percentage of the people. Perhaps it's the proximity of sinners that is uncomfortable.
|
|
Sounds like a people problem
Guest
|
Post by Sounds like a people problem on Jun 17, 2006 20:35:43 GMT -5
I was horrified many times when I observed senior overseers such as Sydney Holt, Eldon T. And Willis Prop put extreme pressure on vulnerable elderly people to leave their estates to the truth. My family assisted in many such schemes, and I was sickened, disgusted, and yes horrified. Although I do not know Mr Prop, from what I have read he is not the typical 2x2. Not even the typical human! Seems like everything he is involved in has the warmth of cold steel.
|
|
|
Post by Workerish on Jun 17, 2006 20:39:06 GMT -5
I'm glad I'm not the only one who insists that the workers be held accountable for their actions. The post was directed at you. But with the skill of a worker you have redirected it.
|
|
|
Post by ilylo on Jun 17, 2006 20:44:00 GMT -5
Yes, I'm aware it was redirected towards me personally. So why am I being scolded for redirection? Double standard if I ever saw one...
|
|