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Post by as i c it on Jun 10, 2006 18:12:40 GMT -5
Ooh Spiderman...that is long. MUCH too long. But your comment about how the worker told you to show the spiritual side of you, really started me thinking! (And then fighting for the 2x2 church), because what that worker said...is so amazing!!!
Shunning (IMO) has served two functions in the past.
1) To bring individuals back & 2) To keep the believers who are in, from getting "infected" (from the so-called "wrong-spirited/wrong thinking/and wrong believing) of those who have gone out (and who no longer agreed with the group think).
For a worker to then...almost encourage...you to show that you're still a Christian...Godly!!!--and that you HAVEN'T left "us" just so you can become "worldly"....!!! Simply unheard of! Even a few years ago!
Which might mean enlightment is taking place (and gaining support) even with some of the ministry!
As to The shunning Zorro and his family received from the family that turned him in: I can't help but wonder if there's a chance that instead of it being shunning, the other family could just be embarassed, or ashamed, of what they did. And perhaps even feeling guilty because they may think their actions caused Zorro et al to leave..(?) Or: they could even be afraid that he'll react badly to them...because of what they did.
One way Zorro could find out is to forgive them. If they continue to rebuff him and his family, then, it 's probably shunning.
At various times I've read that others have said that 2x2's stop calling them after they leave. I've often meant to post that the telephone lines run--and work--both ways. And therefore, they should/could call the 2 x 2 as well... While the fellowship/believers/etc. have often worked to provide the common basis of a relationship, and while it may be a bit "ruff" (at first) to form a different kind of friendship (based on other common areas of interests), it can be done...if both sides wish it.
(And from what I know of you, Zorro, and Gene, from the net, I'm sure there are MANY who would still enjoy being friends with all of you. Just might take time (and some adjustment).
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Post by spiderman on Jun 10, 2006 19:54:41 GMT -5
as i see it,
The people who are shunning and treating my friends badly are NOT embarrassed. They're mad, self-righteous, and not wanting to be contaminated with the Zorro's. Zorro and family have forgiven them. That came way before they left.
But when a thing is wrong, it's just plain wrong, and like Firstborn, we and the Zorro's could not go on any longer, especially when so many in the fellowship go on and on about us being the only saved people and how thankful we can be that we're not like other men.
Years before I quit, I had a fear that I had actually gotten into the wrong way, not the right one. I do believe that God lead me to my wife, and I believe He's leading me now. So please pray for us all that we'll be able to truly continue to recognize and react to His leading, and to truly KNOW the God and Father who created us.
Just as an aside, if you want to hear a girl sing that sounds like an angel get a "Watermark" CD. A DVD would be even better, then you could also see her and hear her speak. If she and her husband are not saved, I'm not for certain.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 10, 2006 20:52:13 GMT -5
as i see it,
Before you get too excited about what the worker said, I should give you a little back ground. The worker who said this has been a good friend since he came to this state a few years back. I've been completely open with him since the beginning, telling him and his companion where I stood on all the issues the first time we had lunch together. He, on the one hand agreed with most of what I said, but in silence. It was not until a few years later that I found out from him that he was feeling the same things, even as I spoke them. The other worker did not, and I don't believe he ever really thought much of me. In fact, he told our overseer that I had an agenda and was a co-conspirator with this younger worker and others, (Zorro for instance) Stuff like that has never bothered me. If you knew me and my story you'd understand. But this younger worker has gotten himself into trouble from time to time by the things he's said to the friends, in and out of meetings and has lost the respect of some of the older workers, and even some of his peers. On the other hand he has helped some of his peers in the work to be more open minded and to see other Christians as possibly being saved. When he said that to me, what he meant was that he wanted me to "engage them" in spiritual conversations. That is a nice thought. But where can a conversation like that go? Disagreement, hurt feelings, misunderstandings, MISQUOTINGS, etc, etc. The when they leave they feel sorry for us because they can plainly see that we've lost that "special something." To them it means we've lost the true spirit. To me it means I've lost the ability to swallow large quantities of BS, for the sake of keeping the peace. So why not just show the true spirit of Christ and not tread where I know only hurt feelings and misunderstandings will be produced. Isn't that what Romans 14 and 15 are about?
If they are truly interested and wondering where I'm at and wondering if that's where they should be, I think I'll be able to tell and then maybe we could have a meaningful discussion. Just look at what happens here between those who are way "in" and those who are what I like to call enlightened. SEE, I know I just hurt someone, but I'm just making a point. There's a wall, with a door in it. The door says "Exclusive". If those on the inside open that door and want to speak , I'll oblige, but not just for the sake of giving out my opinions for the masses to trample on.
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Post by as i c it on Jun 10, 2006 21:34:08 GMT -5
Spiderman, (Regarding Zorro's experience). I can understand the "self-righteous, not wanting to get contaminated" part (as to where that is coming from)--from I fail to grasp the "mad" part of your statement about that family's reaction to them. Why should they be mad at Zorro & family for leaving? (I could see "sad"...but "mad" I don't get). As for why you, Zorro, and Firstborn left, I think I can take a stab at understanding how that one worked. You needed truth. And the off-base generalizations (which you mentioned in your post) not being "truth"--grieved your spirit to such an extent that you had to go. For 100 years, generations of believers stayed. Now...the future (to me, anyways) doesn't look too good... I will pray as you requested: and also listen & watch the girl that you mentioned.
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Post by as i c it on Jun 10, 2006 22:03:55 GMT -5
Spiderman,
Thanks for correcting my impression. However: that worker is still around (which is good news) and still able to have an influence. Which (I think) is working hand-and-hand with the Holy Spirit. Like I just posted to you: For 100 years, believers stayed. And now, it's not just the young ones leaving...So: who's causing the eyes to open--and suddenly start seeing--what they've never seen before? Or--even dared "think" before?
Adn if workers are coming to these sites, there's some very good points being made for others to be considered as christians as well. Therefore (and because I live on hope) I'm going to continue to hope for this church--and "fight" for it.
As for engaging others in conversations, it seems to me that you've chosen the wise route--and kind route--to go with it. (And general conversations about God Himself, or some other safe scripture, shouldn't offend anyone).
In your opinion, is there "change" in the air? Any change in the younger/older adults? or the middle-aged? Or is everything still the same as in the last 10 years (before the net etc)?
(And of course, if anyone else wants to give their opinion to those questions, please do so)
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Post by selah on Jun 10, 2006 23:10:41 GMT -5
I've enjoyed reading your posts, Spiderman and "as i c it". Thanks for posting your valuable contributions.
"as i c it", I agree....there is hope, change is happening! As long as I live, I'm not giving up on the people I love with all my heart. And why not hope? It's a choice. I'd much rather hope than be dismal. Even if the outcome is disappointing in the end...I will have spent my time loving and hoping. However, I do not believe it will be disappointing. I'm looking forward to some very exciting events in the future of the f&w!
I am hoping for the best. I want to encourage those workers who are aware, to take a stand for truth. There are many who will support you. You do not stand alone. It will take GREAT courage, but it is the "right" thing to do, and those of you reading here know who you are. Please listen to God's voice and obey, no matter the cost. You will NEVER regret it, even though things may get difficult for awhile.
Please, please take your stand. God is with you and will not forsake you. You can make a difference that will be nothing short of a miracle. This body of believers, the f&w, need those of you in leadership, to take the high road.......be the ministers of the true gospel, you are called to be....take the narrow way......
His name is Jesus.
Blessings, Linda
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sojourner not loggedin
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Post by sojourner not loggedin on Jun 10, 2006 23:23:13 GMT -5
A worker told us recently (in an e-mail) that we need to be careful in assuming.
June 2005-Zorro had been reported to be speaking heresy (salvation by grace). The overseer came and was in Sunday AM meeting and spoke to Zorro after most had left. The lady came to Zorro later that afternoon and apologized. We can assume why she had spoken to the overseer and why she apologized. ( We were in that meeting and were invited to stay afterwards, hearing the conversation.)
This lady recently encouraged people to avoid Zorros and us, we don't know why she is telling them that. We could assume. A person she told--told us.
When we first left meetings, the worker said, he could have no fellowship with those who do not attend meeting. We don't know his thoughts-we assume his meaning. Those that heard this-1st hand, told us.....some did what he said-and stopped talking and even waving to us. That has sort of smoothed out a bit for some that were in that Bible study when the worker spoke. Others are still very reserved-even though we live in the same very small town.
An elderly brother worker said, in reference to us after we left-leave them alone, they'll get lonely and be back. Again, one who heard it-told us. Why he thought and said that, we can only assume.
The worker that spoke this year at a special meeting. 3 different people have told us about it. He said, when people leave meeting en-masse we have to wonder if they are following a leader.......well. hmmm. WHO was he referring to? There has been quite a number leaving meetings from this field-in the last 2-3 years. Not one of us followed a leader. We prayed, meditated, prayed.....it was not a decision that any of us entered into lightly.
We don't know why they are mad/sad/?. We only know how we've been treated. We try to be friendly and one day, there will be peace. Some of the interactions have been pleasant, for which we are glad!
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. (kjv)
And who is thy neighbor?
Craig & Kathy G-sojourner & wife
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Post by selah on Jun 10, 2006 23:24:27 GMT -5
One of my favorite bible verses is "He remembers that we are dust." Ps. 103:14
Linda
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Post by ilylo on Jun 10, 2006 23:38:23 GMT -5
One of my favorite bible verses is "He remembers that we are dust." Ps. 103:14 Linda This might not qualify as a related article, but here it is anyway: A story about dirt
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Post by Confusion on Jun 11, 2006 5:55:12 GMT -5
One of my favorite bible verses is "He remembers that we are dust." Ps. 103:14 Linda This might not qualify as a related article, but here it is anyway: A story about dirtLike many people you are confusing Darwinian scientists and evolution theories and with theories regarding the beginning of life. But then, of course, this is par for the course. The story starts questioning the ability to create man but then change to a universe creation story to deliver an incredibly poignant point.
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Post by as i c it on Jun 11, 2006 15:19:11 GMT -5
sojourner, You've made some very good points in your posting. Unfortunately, I'm one who assumes much, because I need "order" and "explanations" in my own private world. And where facts aren't given, I often try to figure whatever "it" is--out. On the plus side, I'm also very willing to let facts change my assumptions. Linda, I love that scripture. It always brings the image of God's complex creation of this planet to my mind. Sooo much knowledge, from so many, many, different areas--yet--all coming together (in His mind)--to work together, and give us the world we live in. And then--there's "us".... Quite a difference!!! What definition do we (the 2x2's) use for "grace"
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Yellow
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by Yellow on Jun 11, 2006 22:46:29 GMT -5
as i c it, I have a question for you.
I have just now finished reading this thread from start to finish and was amazed to see how many times you referred to "the believers". What do you mean by that? What is it they believe in?
When you speak of "the believers" it seems you are talking only about the 2x2s. So what is it they're believing in that I'm not? Or did you mean their belief in the 2x2 religion?
Thanks, Yellow
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Post by selah on Jun 11, 2006 22:51:30 GMT -5
as i c it, you asked the next question I was going to ask. Blessings, Linda
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Post by survival on Jun 11, 2006 23:02:10 GMT -5
Could 2x2ism (as we know it) survive if the claims of exclusivity were abandoned?
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feeling special unique
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Post by feeling special unique on Jun 11, 2006 23:08:16 GMT -5
To feel oneself to be a member of the elite...to be amongst the exclusive ones, certainly must bring about feelings of being very special. How could it not?
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Post by Zorro on Jun 11, 2006 23:28:59 GMT -5
Just got back from a trip to San Diego and now I know why my ears have been burning There's a few details that could possibly use a little polishing up, but for the most part I'm satisfied to let this record stand with one exception: Spidey mentioned an overseer treating our daughter like dirt. There is someone that has, and continues, to treat her badly but it is NOT the overseer. Actually, I've heard that the state's overseer has been encouraging the friends to be friendly. I know he disagrees with much I believe, but I also know that shunning grieves his heart. Sadly, some haven't received the memo. However, I'm happy to say that some didn't need any instruction and responded to us in love of their own accord. Just tonight we received a call from some dear friends that had been gone and only recently received our letter. I was thrilled that their only message was to tell us they still loved us. So, for the moment I'm going to bask in that...and let the rest drift a little further away.
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Post by wondering on Jun 12, 2006 1:44:55 GMT -5
I've been wondering why it's so important for the friends and workers to feel they are right, and everyone else is lost. What motivates a person to feel in themselves that they are the only people saved, when it flies in the face of so much of scripture? . You could just as easily ask why is it so important for Christians to feel they are right and say for instance that the Muslims, Hindus or the LDS's are wrong, or anyone else for that matter? How dare you!? ...Romans 14 or 15? ... just so clearly describes how not to act and feel about other Christians who don't believe the same way you do, in order that you might all have fellowship together in the saving grace of Jesus. So is there any reason you don't want to have fellowship with friends and workers? However, when you leave the fellowship of the workers, so many of them don't feel they can have fellowship with you anymore, because you've lost out in their minds. . I'm not a 2x2, but it would seem obvious to me that if you intentionally stop having something so personal as fellowship with someone, they might feel it would be pretty hard to have fellowship with that someone who doesn't want to have fellowship with them? If they feel they are Christians, and you purposely don't want to have fellowship anymore, What does that say about you as a "fellow" Christian? Does God not have fellowship with them anymore either? I can see where it would seem reasonable to wonder if you have lost out. After we quit, a worker friend of ours told us if we want people to think we are still spiritual or saved, we need to engage them, (if they come around) in meaningful, spiritual discussions. I wonder. Will they think, as some have stated, that because I think I'm saved outside of their way, they would need to convince me of my lost state, before I could be saved again by joining the fellowship once more? quote] Again, I feel uncomfortable responding here, but this logic is soooo mixed up. Of course you should engage them. As friends and fellow Christians. But in reading your notes here, it's clear you find them coming up short. In fact I wonder if you even think of them as Christians? Maybe you do, but an attitude comes accross to me that just doesn't sound like someone trying to make friends and find common ground. What's this talk about "their" way? Look, I suppose you feel you are in Gods way, right? So do they? From my point of view, they're both "your way" Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. I wonder if , at that point , if it wouldn't become a wonderful place to be found. To me, exclusivity is like a cancer that has infected every arm and sinew of the fellowship, turning wonderful people against one another, in the name of Jesus. I have a problem with Christian judgementalism and exclusivity to begin with, but in this matter between you and "them" It is clear that this cancer you speak of is an issue that has infected you, hasn't it. The very thing you bemoan, you have done and are doing!
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Post by Following along on Jun 12, 2006 5:43:36 GMT -5
I've been wondering why it's so important for the friends and workers to feel they are right, and everyone else is lost. What motivates a person to feel in themselves that they are the only people saved, when it flies in the face of so much of scripture? The teachings of Jesus perhaps? Those that are not with us are against us. The fact that Christianity is the self-proclaimed only right way. People are just following the leader. Why is it so difficult for those who complain against the exclusivity of one group to admit that they are members of an exclusive group as well? Muslims feel the same way. Get over it.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 12, 2006 7:43:06 GMT -5
Just got back from a trip to San Diego and now I know why my ears have been burning There's a few details that could possibly use a little polishing up, but for the most part I'm satisfied to let this record stand with one exception: Spidey mentioned an overseer treating our daughter like dirt. There is someone that has, and continues, to treat her badly but it is NOT the overseer. Actually, I've heard that the state's overseer has been encouraging the friends to be friendly. I know he disagrees with much I believe, but I also know that shunning grieves his heart. Sadly, some haven't received the memo. However, I'm happy to say that some didn't need any instruction and responded to us in love of their own accord. Just tonight we received a call from some dear friends that had been gone and only recently received our letter. I was thrilled that their only message was to tell us they still loved us. So, for the moment I'm going to bask in that...and let the rest drift a little further away. Sorry about that Zorro, glad you caught that. What I meant as you well know was an old elder, not overseer. Jeff Thayer is certainly not one to shun anyone or encourage it.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 12, 2006 8:16:14 GMT -5
I've been wondering why it's so important for the friends and workers to feel they are right, and everyone else is lost. What motivates a person to feel in themselves that they are the only people saved, when it flies in the face of so much of scripture? . You could just as easily ask why is it so important for Christians to feel they are right and say for instance that the Muslims, Hindus or the LDS's are wrong, or anyone else for that matter? How dare you!? So is there any reason you don't want to have fellowship with friends and workers? I'm not a 2x2, but it would seem obvious to me that if you intentionally stop having something so personal as fellowship with someone, they might feel it would be pretty hard to have fellowship with that someone who doesn't want to have fellowship with them? If they feel they are Christians, and you purposely don't want to have fellowship anymore, What does that say about you as a "fellow" Christian? Does God not have fellowship with them anymore either? I can see where it would seem reasonable to wonder if you have lost out. After we quit, a worker friend of ours told us if we want people to think we are still spiritual or saved, we need to engage them, (if they come around) in meaningful, spiritual discussions. I wonder. Will they think, as some have stated, that because I think I'm saved outside of their way, they would need to convince me of my lost state, before I could be saved again by joining the fellowship once more? quote] Again, I feel uncomfortable responding here, but this logic is soooo mixed up. Of course you should engage them. As friends and fellow Christians. But in reading your notes here, it's clear you find them coming up short. In fact I wonder if you even think of them as Christians? Maybe you do, but an attitude comes accross to me that just doesn't sound like someone trying to make friends and find common ground. What's this talk about "their" way? Look, I suppose you feel you are in Gods way, right? So do they? From my point of view, they're both "your way" Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. I wonder if , at that point , if it wouldn't become a wonderful place to be found. To me, exclusivity is like a cancer that has infected every arm and sinew of the fellowship, turning wonderful people against one another, in the name of Jesus. I have a problem with Christian judgementalism and exclusivity to begin with, but in this matter between you and "them" It is clear that this cancer you speak of is an issue that has infected you, hasn't it. The very thing you bemoan, you have done and are doing! Now I'll try to answer a few of "wondering's" questions. You bring up some points that have been discussed here before. First of all, yes Christ is exclusive. I believe in Him as the true and only Son of God. I believe His teachings and I'm trying my best to live by those and the spirit He promised He would send when He left the earth. What I don't read about in the bible is an exclusive bunch of Christians with man-made doctrine coming along 2000 years after Jesus claiming to be the only true people of God. The reason I quit was that I disagreed with that and a few other things that don't line up with the bible and Jesus teachings. After a while (30 years) I just got tired of disagreeing with so much that I would hear every Sunday morning, or at a convention, or special meeting, about us being the only true people of God. As far as Muslims etc, that's their own business, I'm a Christian and I don't have to worry about judging them or anyone for that matter. As far as my logic being mixed up I think you're missing something here. These people are all my friends and I do love them and I'm sure most of them still love me. But when someone believes they are the only true Christians and everyone else is going to hell, it's hard to engage them at that level without hurting feelings. They know how I feel and I know how they feel. Of course I think they're Christians, there are just some things we can't agree on. I would have fellowship with any of them, and have with some, but there will be that wall if they believe in the living witness doctrine. Yes that cancer of exclusivity did infect me but I'm getting the cure little by little. You don't get over it very quickly. I don't like Christian judgementalism either but people are people and you're going to have some of that wherever you go. I just don't believe their claims of being God's only people. Simple as that. You see as far as me being a "fellow Christian" as you so kindly put it, they don't see me that way anymore. I may see them that way, but if I'm not in their meetings any longer they don't consider me a "true" Christian. It doesn't seem like you really know too much about this subject or you're just jerking my chain, but there you have it.
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Post by Do you on Jun 12, 2006 9:27:30 GMT -5
I just don't believe their claims of being God's only people. Do you believe the Christian claim that they are God's only people?
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Post by las unplugged on Jun 12, 2006 10:57:42 GMT -5
I just don't believe their claims of being God's only people. Do you believe the Christian claim that they are God's only people? I did at one time no more thou I simply know better now
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Post by as i c it on Jun 12, 2006 16:40:13 GMT -5
Hello Zorro! Oh Oh...well, guess the good news is...we were thinking about you? ?? And on your part!!! Yellow, I'm a 2x2. And any reference to "the believers" that I would have made would have, in a probability, referred to those in my church. I hope that helps.
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Post by Bryanfromalaska on Jun 12, 2006 16:43:15 GMT -5
I just don't believe their claims of being God's only people. Do you believe the Christian claim that they are God's only people? Yes, in that Christains believe the bible and the bible says so...
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Post by spiderman on Jun 12, 2006 20:38:35 GMT -5
If you believe the words of Jesus and the prophesies about Him in the old testament, then it follows that you believe Christians are God's people. I won't go any further than that. God is so much larger than we can imagine, how can we know his mind on this matter. I am a Christian because I believe in salvation through Jesus. Beyond that I know nothing.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 12, 2006 20:41:37 GMT -5
Hello Zorro! Oh Oh...well, guess the good news is...we were thinking about you? ?? And on your part!!! Yellow, I'm a 2x2. And any reference to "the believers" that I would have made would have, in a probability, referred to those in my church. I hope that helps. So, as i see it, does this mean that you do believe in the Living Witness Doctrine as set forth by William Irvine and Joe Kerr? Does this also mean you don't believe that Yellow, Zorro or myself are "believers"?
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Post by spiderman on Jun 12, 2006 21:26:34 GMT -5
Nate, You're off subject! The Living Witness Doctrine has nothing to do with anything you just said, and further more, I think you are fully aware of that.
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Post by so then on Jun 12, 2006 21:55:25 GMT -5
Do you believe the Christian claim that they are God's only people? I did at one time no more thou I simply know better now I take it you do not believe what Jesus said. Ok then.
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