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Post by spiderman on Jun 9, 2006 8:00:23 GMT -5
I've been wondering why it's so important for the friends and workers to feel they are right, and everyone else is lost. What motivates a person to feel in themselves that they are the only people saved, when it flies in the face of so much of scripture?
For instance, have you ever heard a worker preach about Romans 14 or 15? I don't ever recall hearing anything about those chapters, maybe I did. It just so clearly describes how not to act and feel about other Christians who don't believe the same way you do, in order that you might all have fellowship together in the saving grace of Jesus.
However, when you leave the fellowship of the workers, so many of them don't feel they can have fellowship with you anymore, because you've lost out in their minds.
After we quit, a worker friend of ours told us if we want people to think we are still spiritual or saved, we need to engage them, (if they come around) in meaningful, spiritual discussions. I wonder. Will they think, as some have stated, that because I think I'm saved outside of their way, they would need to convince me of my lost state, before I could be saved again by joining the fellowship once more?
Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. I wonder if , at that point , if it wouldn't become a wonderful place to be found. To me, exclusivity is like a cancer that has infected every arm and sinew of the fellowship, turning wonderful people against one another, in the name of Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2006 8:35:23 GMT -5
I've been wondering why it's so important for the friends and workers to feel they are right, and everyone else is lost. What motivates a person to feel in themselves that they are the only people saved, when it flies in the face of so much of scripture? For instance, have you ever heard a worker preach about Romans 14 or 15? I don't ever recall hearing anything about those chapters, maybe I did. It just so clearly describes how not to act and feel about other Christians who don't believe the same way you do, in order that you might all have fellowship together in the saving grace of Jesus. However, when you leave the fellowship of the workers, so many of them don't feel they can have fellowship with you anymore, because you've lost out in their minds. After we quit, a worker friend of ours told us if we want people to think we are still spiritual or saved, we need to engage them, (if they come around) in meaningful, spiritual discussions. I wonder. Will they think, as some have stated, that because I think I'm saved outside of their way, they would need to convince me of my lost state, before I could be saved again by joining the fellowship once more? Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. I wonder if , at that point , if it wouldn't become a wonderful place to be found. To me, exclusivity is like a cancer that has infected every arm and sinew of the fellowship, turning wonderful people against one another, in the name of Jesus. That's what I am preaching through as I head through the letter to the Romans, and that is a right understanding. Ch 12 tells us how to live, sacrificially and transformed, and then goes on to illustrate what sacrificial and transformed look like. Around 12:14-13:14 gives the beilever a picture of how he/she should interact with the "world"; then 14 and 15 talk about life within the body. It is amazing letter, and it really needs to be read as a whole. Too often we pick and choose in this letter, and often miss the forest for the trees- Legalists and anarchists both have beaten this letter into the ground, plucking out the verses that support their contention. It really is a wholistic letter- dealing with every aspect of life. It is a retelling of God's redemptive story, from Adam to the Return of Christ and the grafting back in of Israel. It is a story of freedom from slavery, and the end of Israel's exile. It is the story of a merciful, just God, both tender and severe redeeming His creation and being all that God must be. I hesitated preaching through it for a long time, because it has been beaten to death around here, but this is the time for it and it's bearing good fruit. God's word is powerful. Defer to the weaker brother, live as a sacrifice- it's the only sensible thing to do, unite around the common, to believers, call of God; God keeps His promise, God answers to no one- these are powerful truths when taken together- should cause us to ponder and be in awe of His work, and Himself. Karl Karl
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Post by selah on Jun 9, 2006 10:51:27 GMT -5
I think that most f&w read the message of the bible as though it were written for f&w only. So, the understanding of differences between believers would pertain only to differences between f&w. That's awesome that you received that advice from a worker! Often attempts at spiritual conversation with f&w are seen as threats against the fellowship. They fear the perceived "poison" we have to share, or they feel we have a destructive agenda, so it makes meaningful discussion very difficult. However, NOTHING is impossible with God! Don't ever give up. Who else is reaching out to these folks? Are there more effective ways to open the door of communication? I don't know...I just keep praying. Yes, I believe it would! Especially after watching the story of the transformation of the Worldwide Church of God. There's a link to the video in this thread: professing.proboards16.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1149605325Blessings, Linda
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Post by junia on Jun 9, 2006 11:04:16 GMT -5
Linda, I don't intend to be a wet blanket regarding the WWCOG's video but I'm still pretty skeptical about their supposed journey into Christian orthodoxy. (Yes I've seen the video) I personally think they have done a fantastic job of public relations of their "transformation", however I wasn't convinced. This is a summary from Phil Johnsons's Really Bad Theology part of his website on the WWCOG. www.spurgeon.org/~phil/bookmark/realbad.htmWorldwide Church of God: Once a cult, always a cult, it seems. This is the group founded by Herbert W. Armstrong, who blended elements of Arianism, Seventh-day sabbatarianism, Anglo-Israelism, Galatian-style legalism, Pyramidology, and various other quirks and heresies into a deadly mix of false doctrines. Armstrong also falsely prophesied some end-times events, including the "rapture" of the church (he predicted the group would be miraculously taken to Petra in Jordan in 1972). After Armstrong's death in 1986, the group abandoned his anti-trinitarianism, disclaimed his rigid Saturday-Sabbatarianism, and made several other significant and much-publicized concessions to historic Christian orthodoxy. But are they really orthodox? They teach a doctrine of post-mortem salvation; a muddled view of justification; and a confusing version of "the gospel of the kingdom" that still contains strong elements of Armstrongism. Doctrinal confusion seems rife within the group, and their teachings have been constantly in flux since Armstrong's death. Their halting movement toward evangelical "orthodoxy" still looks as if it may de-rail before they actually shed all their founder's false teachings. WWCoG's published "Statement of Beliefs" does include an appendix with the Nicene Creed, the Disciples' Creed, and the definition of Chalcedon. But there is no explicit affirmation of these historic formulae—and the introduction to them warns that "creeds can become formal, complex, abstract, and sometimes equated with Scripture." Furthermore, the modern doctrinal statement offered by the WWCoG fudges on issues like eternal punishment and soul sleep, and when it deals with vital doctrines like justification by faith, those articles of faith are abbreviated and framed in unnecessarily ambiguous language. (For example, Scripture is affirmed as inspired and "foundational to the church"—but not expressly said to be the sole and sufficient rule of faith.) The WWCoG today is certainly not as solidly in the mainstream of the evangelical movement as some of the recent giddy reports (cheered on by the WWCoG's own tireless PR department) have tried to make out. It appears uncertain at this point whether they intend to be truly orthodox, or merely stake out a permanent position on the fringe, doing what they have always done: borrowing popular errors from other groups and trying to amalgamate them into a mongrel system that is uniquely their own. In any case, as much as we would have liked to see them in a different category, Scripture and conscience compel us to say frankly that the theology of this group is still really bad.
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Post by junia on Jun 9, 2006 11:09:37 GMT -5
Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. In some parts, exclusivity IS dying and it's having a big impact. Some are leaving the group, many are rejecting the legalisms, and meeting attendance is dropping or becoming optional. I personally beleive the fellowship is well past it's heyday in the western world. Give it another 10 years (20?) and who knows what it will look like.
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Post by selah on Jun 9, 2006 11:23:59 GMT -5
Hi Junia, I do believe it takes time to sort through all the issues and come to terms with a monumental change like this. However, I disagree with your source on the issue of genuine transformation. Even on the specific areas mentioned, I think further investigation is warranted. Check out their website: www.wcg.org/lit/aboutus/beliefs/default.htmBlessings, Linda P.S. I edited part of this post out, because I misread a quote in the material you presented.
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Post by selah on Jun 9, 2006 11:28:51 GMT -5
I only personally know one "reformed" WCoG individual, but I can say, without hesitation, we are united in Christ! We meet together in a few different prayer/fellowship/ministry events.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2006 13:53:44 GMT -5
Doctrine is a matter of opinion. People think that doctrine they don't agree with is wrong, and that which they agree with is right.
So anyone else who doesn't agree with me is wrong.
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Post by selah on Jun 9, 2006 13:56:24 GMT -5
Yes, our understanding of doctrine can and does have many flavors. That's why we need to love and accept one another as we seek truth together.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by junia on Jun 9, 2006 15:16:09 GMT -5
Hi Junia, I do believe it takes time to sort through all the issues and come to terms with a monumental change like this. However, I disagree with your source on the issue of genuine transformation. Even on the specific areas mentioned, I think further investigation is warranted. Check out their website: www.wcg.org/lit/aboutus/beliefs/default.htmBlessings, Linda P.S. I edited part of this post out, because I misread a quote in the material you presented. Linda, I hope I didn't come across as too heavy handed. I just wanted to issue a word of caution. If the f&w attempted to come clean regarding the history, drop the exclusive beliefs, and mesh doctrine with historic Christian orthodoxy, the process would be extremely upsetting to the church too. At least the WWCOG is trying....
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Post by Hope For All on Jun 9, 2006 17:07:09 GMT -5
Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. In some parts, exclusivity IS dying and it's having a big impact. Some are leaving the group, many are rejecting the legalisms, and meeting attendance is dropping or becoming optional. I personally beleive the fellowship is well past it's heyday in the western world. Give it another 10 years (20?) and who knows what it will look like. Dear Junia, Where do you see (think) that exclusitivity is dying? I see it "sofening- but not dying out. As for this fellowship dying out in 10-20 years- I highly doubt that. And you have to admit that there have been HUGE changes from what it was 25 years ago. Yet the numbers are no different in our part. I see a people who are truly convinced that they are in the most wonderful fellowship in all the world. They are exclusive in a positive way- if that makes any sense. Kind of like "I am so happy with what I have and I feel so sorry that you don't have it". I have asked myself why I am not offended by exclusitivity claims by other religions like JW's? I just look at them and am not bothered by it. Why does the F&W brand of exclusiveness bother so many on this board. I think I know why. Love, HFA
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Post by Jessi on Jun 9, 2006 17:27:11 GMT -5
Hope for All wrote: Why does the F&W brand of exclusiveness bother so many on this board. I think I know why.
Because Christ is the only one that can claim exclusivity? I AM - I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE, etc.?
Because Christianity is exclusively about Christ, not a group of people who claim they have Christ and try to keep others from having what they have?
I'm just guessing. I've rarely seen "outsiders" at conventions . . . what are they for, exactly? He that speaketh of himself seeks his own glory – John 7:18
BUT WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED - I Cor 1:23
The Christ is God, Jessi
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Post by junia on Jun 9, 2006 18:08:03 GMT -5
Dear HFA,
I don't have time for a proper respnse to yours right now but I think you're reading way too much into my posts. I will attempt to clarify later if I get a chance. In the mean time it wouldn't hurt to re-read my post. I guess it's one of the limitations of trying to express oneself by written word only...
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Post by selah on Jun 9, 2006 18:09:47 GMT -5
Not at all Junia. I do appreciate words of caution too...so thank you.
HFA, I can only speak for myself I guess, but it is not just the f&w brand exclusivity that bothers me. While I do believe that Jesus Christ IS the only way...which is exclusive of other religious perceptions...I do NOT believe that people who are under the banner of Jesus Christ should exclude others who are also under His banner.
I find that kind of exclusivity, no matter where it comes from, offensive to the true gospel.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by seeking on Jun 9, 2006 20:55:14 GMT -5
As for the falling away - the 2x2 response will be that it's a sign of the times. They will rejoice for those who "continue on faithfully". It's nice when you can't lose no matter what is happening!
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Post by amen amen on Jun 9, 2006 21:09:00 GMT -5
Exclusivity is KEY to the continued existence of that fellowship. Maybe some don't really believe in it, but as a whole, if exclusivity died, ( which it should) in the Go Preachers fellowship, in just a short while you would not recognize it, and that would be a good thing. I wonder if , at that point , if it wouldn't become a wonderful place to be found. To me, exclusivity is like a cancer that has infected every arm and sinew of the fellowship, turning wonderful people against one another, in the name of Jesus. This is one of the truest statements I've seen on this board. Exclusivity really is at the heart of the Truth... this is why the news about William Irvine is so damaging to the Truth... it denies the Truth its claim on exclusivity by lumping it in with all the other man-made churches. Help a 2x2; tell them about William Irvine.
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Post by Two Timers on Jun 9, 2006 22:14:03 GMT -5
William Irvine. Wasn't William Irvine that guy who was a two timer? Maybe thats why they call them 2x2's! I'll bet that's how it all came about.
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Post by Gjert on Jun 9, 2006 23:51:52 GMT -5
If the exlusivity preaching was to be abandoned...then how could "the truth way" continue? Is it not the belief that "we are the one true church" that holds it all together. Either the 2x2 church is exactly what it claims to be...or it...is not.
If exlusivity & the dress code for females was done away with....could "the truth" survive?
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Post by think2much on Jun 10, 2006 3:30:51 GMT -5
There is one overriding reason that the fellowship HAS to be exclusive in order to remain in its present state:
If people can find salvation outside of the worker's church, then the intrinsic value of a celibate, homeless, penniless ministry drops precipitously. Think about it: if workers really believed that folks were getting saved in mainstream churches, outside of the 2X2 fellowship, there would be no incentive to give up so much to preach the gospel!
In other words, it is the supposed EXCLUSIVE saving power of the 2X2 ministry that gives it so much influence in the eyes of the workers and friends. Take away that exclusivity--i.e. make salvation a personal relationship with God, nothing more nothing less--and you've taken away the very mortar that holds the bricks of the 2X2 ministry in place!
Imagine if a worker got up in a gospel meeting and said, "I only want you to know Jesus and to believe on him as your personal savior. I don't care if you come to our meetings or go to the church down the street, just believe and trust in Jesus!" That worker would not last long in the 2X2 ministry, let alone in the fellowship, right?
Do the workers really "hold the keys to heaven?" Depending on how you answer that question will probably determine whether you're an innie or an outie...
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Post by as i c it on Jun 10, 2006 4:22:00 GMT -5
think2much,
I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. IMO, doctrinal changes could take place in our church--and I think we'd not only survive, but even thrive, if that were to happen.
Spiderman (& Mrs. Spidey) left the fellowship over the issue of exclusivity. Others may also have doctrinal issues (and be in the process of leaving)...But, meanwhile, they stay. Why?
It seems to me that for many, it's the love that's found there (as well as the exclusivity). And if exclusivity were to vanish, many would still stay (as long as the doctrine was sound) because of the love that is found there--for everything. (Like the workers, the meetings in the homes, and each other)
Other churches don't have exclusivity--and yet their congregation continues to come in order to have fellowship. So: if the workers said (in effect) "Worship God wherever", I think many would still continue to stay 2x2's. And many might even return--with friends.
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Post by still in on Jun 10, 2006 6:18:28 GMT -5
as i c it:
If the Truth openly dropped exclusivity then it would lose a lot of members.
However, many of these members would stay and many more would be added if the Truth openly changed a number of other doctrinal issues. (To the point that, in many ways, it would be unrecognizeable.)
This will never happen though because the management power structure is comfortable with the status quo. (The FWM are killing the Truth (FWM = Friends/Workers with [lots of] money).)
The news of William Irvine will continue to spread. The belief of exclusivity in Truth will continue to diminish. The doctrine of the Truth will continue to be questioned. Fewer will go into the work. Fewer will stay in the Truth. We can already see this happening today, and it is never a bad thing when good people reject bad doctrine.
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Post by IllinoisGal on Jun 10, 2006 7:25:11 GMT -5
Do the workers really "hold the keys to heaven?" Depending on how you answer that question will probably determine whether you're an innie or an outie...[/quote]
Peter holds the keys to the kingdom. Jesus gave them too him in the New Testament and told him whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven.
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Post by Roy on Jun 10, 2006 7:38:31 GMT -5
I was b&r in the f&w and am a notch below 60. Can anyone list the universal doctrine of the group? Can anyone support with scripture the doctrine of the group? Can reading the Bible point to the f&w group as the way to salvation? I will put my learning and salvation on The Word: (KJV) Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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Post by nip on Jun 10, 2006 8:45:07 GMT -5
To Roy Since the 2x2s never issued any statement of doctrine but those who know the situation can guess at doctrine Roy it is a doctrine of being exclusive meaning the only way Just call it the [LWD]
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Post by spiderman on Jun 10, 2006 11:56:08 GMT -5
think2much, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. IMO, doctrinal changes could take place in our church--and I think we'd not only survive, but even thrive, if that were to happen. Spiderman (& Mrs. Spidey) left the fellowship over the issue of exclusivity. Others may also have doctrinal issues (and be in the process of leaving)...But, meanwhile, they stay. Why? It seems to me that for many, it's the love that's found there (as well as the exclusivity). And if exclusivity were to vanish, many would still stay (as long as the doctrine was sound) because of the love that is found there--for everything. (Like the workers, the meetings in the homes, and each other) Other churches don't have exclusivity--and yet their congregation continues to come in order to have fellowship. So: if the workers said (in effect) "Worship God wherever", I think many would still continue to stay 2x2's. And many might even return--with friends. You said a couple of interesting things. People stay because of the love found there. There is love, but for many, it's a very conditional love. When the Giddings left they were openly shunned by people who had previously "loved" them. Even people who had taken great advantage of their good will, and REAL love, shunned them because according to some F&W"s they now had the spirit of the devil. My good friend Zorro and his lovely wife were turned in to the overseer by people who supposedly "loved" them for years. Their offense was speaking about salvation by grace in Sunday meeting. Their daughter has been shunned and treated like dirt by their old overseer, who used to "love" her when she had long hair and wore dresses. Now that the family has quit the people who turned them in won't even look at them when they pass on the street. On the other end of that my son and I stopped in to see some folks that we had met with for more than 25 years. They received us with open hearts and arms and made it very clear that we are welcome there any time, for any reason. And from our conversation I don't believe they feel we are lost. ( However they do believe that Irvine was raised up by God and used until he was no longer useful, or something like that). My point here is that the love that you speak of is not confined to the friends and workers, and it's also not confined to other Christians. The love that you speak of most definitely exists outside of the Irvine fellowship. It an individual love, and it cuts across all of Christianity, just as the petty shunning and judging we've witnessed cuts across all of Christianity. You seemed to indicate that the doctrine was sound. In two words, "it's not". It's not even very close. The doctrine changes from one area to another, from one country to another, from one worker to another. It's far from sound. Yes some stay because of the so-called love, and because of their love for those still in. But disagree with the" cult think "and watch some if not most of that "love" disappear. Exclusivity is not the only reason we left. That is just at the heart of all the problems I see with the fellowship. It's the one I believe God frowns on the most. An arrogant bunch claiming all of His love for them alone. I do think the fellowship will thrive no matter who quits or who says what. Things are bound to change, but time is short and I need to do what I believe God wants me to do. For years I tried to affect a change from within. I know there are people who are still hoping for this and that's just fine for them. I don't despise the fellowship, but I would definitely point people away from it.
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Post by Cali on Jun 10, 2006 13:38:33 GMT -5
Spiderman, you don't know how much your posts are appreciated. They are such a breath of fresh air!!!
I want to respond to the post from as i c it; I think you may be right, that some folks would stay in the "workers's church" because of the love they feel there. But, I think there are quite a lot of folks who stay in the "worker's church" because of fear. If you have been taught all your life that you would go to hell if you did not "go to meetings", fear may keep you going to meetings.
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Post by firstborn on Jun 10, 2006 15:48:25 GMT -5
think2much, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. IMO, doctrinal changes could take place in our church--and I think we'd not only survive, but even thrive, if that were to happen. Spiderman (& Mrs. Spidey) left the fellowship over the issue of exclusivity. Others may also have doctrinal issues (and be in the process of leaving)...But, meanwhile, they stay. Why? It seems to me that for many, it's the love that's found there (as well as the exclusivity). And if exclusivity were to vanish, many would still stay (as long as the doctrine was sound) because of the love that is found there--for everything. (Like the workers, the meetings in the homes, and each other) Other churches don't have exclusivity--and yet their congregation continues to come in order to have fellowship. So: if the workers said (in effect) "Worship God wherever", I think many would still continue to stay 2x2's. And many might even return--with friends. How in the world could u agree, disagree or rationally discus anything to do with 2x2 doctrine when it's all over the place? A year before we left another family had also left, strangely nobody would acknowledge that they left, which I now know can be a 2x2 mindset in some areas. Anyway, after a few weeks and some prodding on my part from a few members, I was told it was thought that the world had crept back in their home. Not knowing when to quit, actually it pissed me off, I ask what that meant? Oh you know, drinking and stuff like that. Now I'm really pissed, you see I have a brother that was in the air force and he had been In Europe and had been to a prominent profess family's home with visiting workers and there was alcohol served and all drank! he did say he had a good time, anyway, in my neck of the woods it's of the world, [alcohol] in their world it can be part of a professing life style, Go figure.. By the way we left a year later, could not stomach one more I'm glad were not like the false churches, testimonies..
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Post by as i c it on Jun 10, 2006 17:34:13 GMT -5
First: my apologies to all, because this is going to be long. (I've tried to shorten...and can't)
Spiderman!
Good to see you're back and with us once again! As Cali says: your posts are always appreciated, and your take on things worth reading!
To: Cali & firstborn as well:
1) I don't think our doctrine is sound. Or unified. And it's my belief that those two things are, even now, creating a problem in the 2 x 2 fellowship--and that those problems will increase, in the future, as more and more from the fellowship become aware of all the new knowledge out there. (On the net: and what comes from others, as they prepare to leave--and then do so).
The strength of the 2 x 2 church is built on family and friends--with everyone connected (in some way) to each other. And the weakness of the 2 x 2 church is that its built on--family and friends--with everyone connected to each other.
Therefore, as the new knowledge (of WI: or doctrinal truths) come to be known: and accepted: and reacted against--there's going to be trouble (inwardly and outwardly) with the group--and with the individuals.
a) trauma: produces a lot of negative reactions. Among them: anger and bitterness. And if you have a family of four--where one finds out--then...you have four individuals who are no longer viewing everything within our church the same as before.
b) An attitude is going to develop. And that attitude is going to be: "I'm not going to listen to you anymore". Individuals may stay in the church: because they like the social aspects: and the meetings in the homes: and even the workers--as individuals...but...the trust and respect that's necessary for them to be our true ministers, who we can trust to give us the real truth about our salvation...won't be there.
For example: look at some of the postings from the 2 x 2's that still profess. Look at what is really being "said"--between the lines. And--it's not the believers who are to blame!!!
a) Someone you trust (and love) betrays that trust (and love) by lying to you. b) You find out. And go through a number of horrible emotions. c) You ask that someone for the truth. At this point, the relationship can still be salvaged. All that individual has to do is: Give the real truth--and eat the dirt that comes with it! (Which they deserve...and which the wronged individual has the right to dish out.) d) They lie/mislead/or "deceive" further...dispite your "pleadings" to them: and attempts to make "it' right between you. e) Then--you give up. You know. And--it's hopeless. f) Then you get mad. g) And then..you get react. And what that reaction says is: "Since you cannot be trusted to tell me the truth: and since I can no longer believe what you tell me: then--I am no longer going to listen to you".
Peer pressure--which once worked for the church--will start to work against the church. And my fear is that we'll just become "Sunday worshipers"--with the sincerity of all that has been in our church gone.
If the ministry is to regain (and retain) the proper respect it needs for the ministry, they have to regain their credibility...by doing what's "right" now. And the good news is: There can do it!!! It's not too late...yet.
WI (and the "no founder" concept) is not a true statement. The real truth is that our church--like every other church--had a human being who began it...under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Bring him back into the picture, and it's amazing how scripture suddenly falls right into place--and is able to be read without either twisting our minds/adding things to it/or ignoring other scripture.
The doctrinal differences (from various areas) are due to all of the influences (of knowledge) coming in. And having an effect, on different believers, at different points in time. But now that it's started, it's not going to end...it's going to increase..and get worse! So they need to get together--and write out our doctrine--even if they have to state that certain areas are still under study.
We are to increase in our knowledge of God. That is scriptural. The old method (of ever so gradually changing the messages) isn't going to work--because by the time that everyone starts to hear those messages (and starts to realize--and then accept those messages) too many will have left! Taking others with them!
Spiderman--tried. And finally (frustrated) left. And that's what's going to happen to many more.
Cali: Fear (because of exclusivity) did work for 100 years. But now, (in the future) it's going to have to be "love". And since there is so much love there (for the believers/workers/meetings in the home) doctrinal changes (and "doing it right") is what will KEEP the believers there!
Firstborn: Yeh...I know what you mean about the alcohol...and other things. And the knowledge that others in other countries can (and are) drinking alcohol (and are still "saved") is going to cause the overseers problems. But--the knowledge is out...and...(obviously)...it's going to an effect...as is everything else that has been coming to light on the differences.
If the overseers do "it" right (and get it "right") I think support for our church will remain. And be strengthen--with a lot of what caused the problems--for so many--to be "gone". Well...that's my hope, fwiw.
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