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Post by Missing on May 17, 2006 13:14:20 GMT -5
I'm wondering what court action was taken that keeps being referred to when speaking about the Alberta Excommunications.
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Post by Odd on May 17, 2006 13:39:30 GMT -5
I'm wondering what court action was taken that keeps being referred to when speaking about the Alberta Excommunications. I find it odd with all the discussion regarding the "excommunications" that the only part of the story that is told is when the people were asked to stop going to meeting. Exactly what led up to that move? We hear about what the workers did and how it was not done in what most would consider a Christian way but what went on before that brought them to take that action?
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Post by Agreed on May 17, 2006 14:53:10 GMT -5
I'm wondering what court action was taken that keeps being referred to when speaking about the Alberta Excommunications. I find it odd with all the discussion regarding the "excommunications" that the only part of the story that is told is when the people were asked to stop going to meeting. Exactly what led up to that move? We hear about what the workers did and how it was not done in what most would consider a Christian way but what went on before that brought them to take that action? It is very odd that we only hear about the excommunications. I can't say I agree with how the excommunications seem to have been carried out, it didn't seem very Christ-like to me, however it is odd that no one seems to have any clear understanding of what went on before. It must have been serious, otherwise, why would there have been a cover-up, leading to excommunications?
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Post by Missing on May 17, 2006 22:44:28 GMT -5
No one knows anything about this?
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Post by no kidding on May 17, 2006 22:51:01 GMT -5
no kidding, one would think the workers (who operate a church which calls itself the "truth") would be truthful and come out and tell the truth about the matter.
Guess we'll never hear from them, now will we?
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Post by a believer on May 17, 2006 23:31:24 GMT -5
There was a court case (custody hearing) that Willis Propp attended the transcript of which parts have been on here. It ocured around the time of the excommuncations.
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Post by So on May 18, 2006 0:06:51 GMT -5
There was a court case (custody hearing) that Willis Propp attended the transcript of which parts have been on here. It ocured around the time of the excommuncations. Willis testified in court and people got excommunicated. That is illuminating. I have not idea of what went on but I can guess (and why not? Most of what I have read about this is nth hand anyway!) Someone decided the workers were not following the bible. They questioned the workers and wanted them to change. As any church would to to people who no longer believe what the church is teaching, they were asked to cease taking part in the church. But the people decided that they were not going to leave. They wanted the church to change to meet their beliefs. As any church would respond, the workers said No. So the people, and those who supported them were excommunicated. This is not a new thing. Martin Luthur did the same thing and was kicked out of the Catholic Church. If the people did not like what was being taught, they should leave and start their own church with their own rules. I gather some have. This happened a while ago. Time to move on.
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 1:24:30 GMT -5
so
So wrong. First read the facts. Then think. And then speak.
Hint: Elders (I repeat: ELDERS) do not suddenly--en masse--decide to get their guts ripped out over "nothing".
And your glib comment (when individuals are still hurting).....sad.
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Post by about WP on May 18, 2006 3:34:07 GMT -5
The information on the excoms were first hand. Tape recordings. And the court transcripts. All first hand. Seems like Willis was the one that went around excom anyone that did not agree with what he had done. Like a pastor kicking people out of his church who do not agree with him! Sounds like a cult to me. Not people wanting to make their own rules but wanting Willis to be accountable.
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Post by to soso on May 18, 2006 7:10:40 GMT -5
This happened a while ago. Time to move on. If you don't have the facts yourself, then your commentary is as baseless as the logic used to formulate it.
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A lot of fingers typing
Guest
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Post by A lot of fingers typing on May 18, 2006 7:29:24 GMT -5
so So wrong. First read the facts. Then think. And then speak. Hint: Elders (I repeat: ELDERS) do not suddenly--en masse--decide to get their guts ripped out over "nothing". And your glib comment (when individuals are still hurting).....sad. But still no answer as to why the people were excommunicated in the first place. What were they saying or doing that resulted in the excommunication? As to them having their 'guts ripped out': they followed their convictions. They disagreed with a group, or one of the group's leaders, and the group, or one of the group's leaders, kicked them out. This would be like joining the World Wildlife Fund and showing up at a whale watch with a harpoon then being surprised why people are upset. The bottom line is that the 2x2s are a group of people with like beliefs. If you believe as they do stay with the group and enjoy. If you don't you can't expect the group to change for you so you can either accept their way or do as so many others have done and depart.
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Post by You understand on May 18, 2006 7:32:00 GMT -5
This happened a while ago. Time to move on. If you don't have the facts yourself, then your commentary is as baseless as the logic used to formulate it. There are a lot of comments made but no one seems to know the root of this issue. All focus on the end result. Of course the way it was handled was wrong. But what brought them to that point?
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Post by Blame game on May 18, 2006 7:33:11 GMT -5
no kidding, one would think the workers (who operate a church which calls itself the "truth") would be truthful and come out and tell the truth about the matter. Guess we'll never hear from them, now will we? You can blame the workers for saying nothing. But let's ne fair - the people involved are not discussing the resons behind the action either.
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Love to read the facts
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Post by Love to read the facts on May 18, 2006 7:34:45 GMT -5
so So wrong. First read the facts. Then think. And then speak. Where can they be found? So far there has only been information regarding the worker's actions. We know what they said. But do we know why they said it?
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Post by to typing fingers on May 18, 2006 7:36:37 GMT -5
The tone of your words seems to imply that you are defending the actions of the workers.
If this is true, I'm sorry you feel that way. You don't know how much people were hurt by this scenario, and it is not productive to try to shift blame for the situation away from those responsible (ie, the workers).
Responsibility is the burden of those in charge (workers), not those under charge (friends). If the workers were truthful and fully accountable, there would be an open dialogue about their actions in this matter. However, we know there has not been a dialogue with the workers. The victims of the excommunications have placed their accounts for all to read.
What are the workes afraid of? Or do they wish to keep this covered up as well?
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Post by First Hand on May 18, 2006 7:42:04 GMT -5
The information on the excoms were first hand. Tape recordings. Right Sparky. But aside from this - why were people asked to stop participating? Is this what happened? People were excommunicated because they did not like what WP had said in court? Or is it what it seems like to you? Like it or not, the 2x2s, like other churches, is a private club. They do not have to give you a membership. And if you do not play by their rules they can ask you to leave. Is this any way to run a church? Of course not. Do you have options? Of course. Vote with your feet. Leave. They do not run the only game in town. If you attend a curch and the pastor says you are not welcome why would you want to stay?
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Post by So wrong on May 18, 2006 7:53:31 GMT -5
The tone of your words seems to imply that you are defending the actions of the workers. If this is true, I'm sorry you feel that way. You don't know how much people were hurt by this scenario, and it is not productive to try to shift blame for the situation away from those responsible (ie, the workers). Not defending the workers at all. I did not agree and I left. I thought the workers were wrong. These people think the workers were wrong. They had the same option to leave. But instead they wanted the workers (especially WP) to change. Each person is responsible for their own actions. You are blaming the workers for excommunicating people yet no one seems to know why all of this came about in the first place. If the people do not agree with what the workers teach why would they want to stay in a church that the workers run? And their accounts tell of the excommunications. Something led to this action. Who knows? Who cares? If you are in a group and do not like the way it is run you have the potion to leave. You can try to change it from within but if that doesn't work you do not have to stay. If these people were so dissatisfied with the workers and what they were doing why would they want to stay in a group that the workers have complete control of?
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 11:36:13 GMT -5
1. Our "doctrine" (life-long teachings/beliefs) are that salvation can ONLY be found "here". (And that means to go elsewhere is to...join the enemy's camp: and be with "the wrong spirit": false preachers: and false believers.) Therefore: if you want salvation, you have to stay in our church.
2. Our church is a way of life. With that way central to our lives: and everything and everyone that makes up that life. Therefore: to leave is to rip out everything (and everyone) that has made up--and given--MEANING--to your life.
3. You have a faith (and a love) for the workers: for God: for the family of God: and for what is "right" with God--and you want what is right (and true). And you believe that the workers feel the same, as you do, about all those same things.
Your life: their life: your faith: their faith:...you & them...and your sacrifice and their sacrifice...and all the love that goes with it all....all being "one" and "the same thing".
Together: THEY built the church in existence. And with their life--those believers also paid the price that gives them the same "ownership" to the church...because they've made the same "investment" in it....with EACH side "doing their part". Like in a marriage. And then one of the spouses suddenly tosses the other one out...leaving the tossed one out--homeless...and left with "nothing".
It's a sad, sad, situation (for all involved) and for the church itself. One can only hope the two sides can find some way to resolve it.
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Post by facts jack on May 18, 2006 16:56:20 GMT -5
love to read the facts,
Go to "Civil Discourse". (Alberta Excommunications). Read the facts. Letters. Listen to the tapes.
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Post by where on May 19, 2006 9:54:21 GMT -5
love to read the facts, Go to "Civil Discourse". (Alberta Excommunications). Read the facts. Letters. Listen to the tapes. civil discourse where? URL?
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timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
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Post by timber on May 19, 2006 10:15:40 GMT -5
alot of finger typing wrote: If you believe as they do stay with the group and enjoy. If you don't you can't expect the group to change for you so you can either accept their way or do as so many others have done and depart. There is another option. Expose heresy and injustice and work for change in the group.
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Post by History shows on May 19, 2006 11:46:18 GMT -5
alot of finger typing wrote: If you believe as they do stay with the group and enjoy. If you don't you can't expect the group to change for you so you can either accept their way or do as so many others have done and depart. There is another option. Expose heresy and injustice and work for change in the group. History shows this is not effective. Didn't work for Martin Luthur
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 12:39:04 GMT -5
History shows,
The internet didn't exist in Luther's day. Nor did a choice between being Catholic (or something else). Luther (and all other events, and the times themselves) resulted in the Protestants coming into existence: and a choice becoming available. (At least, I believe that's how it went).
Also: I think (and lay full blame) upon a system that has gone wrong...somehow...: and not necessarily the individuals themselves. If we really think about it: so much of what is now "wrong" (or which has resulted in "wrong" coming into existence in our church) started out with being "good intentions". And just snowballed.
Today, those on the internet are classified as "evil-doers" by the workers. But--in reality--the workers should feel PROUD of themselves: and what they have accomplished!!! There's many a "dead church" and "dead people" out there: and (probably) many a minister who, reading these boards, would wish that he had "a people" who were "so alive"--in their love of God: and their love (concern) for each other...to be so emotionally and spiritually involved in "their church". Or with "right" and "wrong": or with "right" and "wrong" according to God's word.
Our church (being only 100 years old) is, IMO, at it's "teenaqe stage". You know...the one where the child (adult) returns to kick their parents in the leg: and let their mom and dad know all the wrongs they've done: and all the harm etc.
Some of it may be true. And some of it won't be. (All the parent can do is admit to the wrong: and forbear, and continue to love their child, and wait for "life" to teach the child some knowledge)
"The kids" of this church are all at different stages. With many of them "still here" today--meeting together--and working out all the different issues they had with "their parents". And although "the parents" may have done some "wrong"--they didn't do all things wrong...because---IT'S THE VERY THINGS THEY TAUGHT US that are now causing THEM "the problems".
If they hadn't taught us to have a love for God: or for truth: or for right (instead of wrong): and if they hadn't taught us to care (for each other: or the group): or salvation (and so on)---we wouldn't be here (on this evil net) "protesting" the "wrongs"--or "fighting" for "the right".
If they're reading the net: they're receiving the truth. And if there be truth in them, they'll see it. And with the seeing of it, can come change.
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Post by amazed on May 19, 2006 13:24:38 GMT -5
I think there are many wonderful, loving workers, however I believe that we learn to love God, truth, right (not wrong), from having a personal relationship with Jesus, drawing close in his Word.
The "problems" that developed didn't come from their teaching of love, it came from their cover-up of issues, then denial and from what I can gather, dishonesty for the truth about the issues.
The "children", in your comparison, came back to kick the "parents" in the leg, then the parents, lied, covered up, denied any wrong doing and told the children that if they didn't agree with everything the parents said, then the children were not welcome in their home!
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Post by reformer on May 19, 2006 13:29:48 GMT -5
i think there are many wonderful workers but they are chicken to stand up to the lead workers and stand for what was right
there are wonderful workers reading this board but they are not stepping up and standing for what is right
they ARE standing true?
true to what?
if you don't stand for truth, you'll fall for anything
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 14:22:28 GMT -5
amazed, I agree. There are many loving and wonderful workers in the church, who only want to do God's will. But "the system" is causing all the problems you mentioned above. Last night I went to the link that posted on this thread: and say the statement that "lying is not part of our doctrine": followed by the letter from the overseer (in Australia ? was it?): where the two children had chosen suicide over convention...and I read more ...."untruths" to do with our church. The overseer did not even have enough conviction in what is preached to state it in that letter. Instead: his statements said the exact opposite to what we all "know" to be "the doctrines" or "rules" of our church. We all lie and are liars. And I can accept lies (on the personal level) to do with a worker's own (individual) life--as long as it isn't causing pain or harm to take place in someone else's life. But when you're an individual who is in your role of being a minister--and representing God--and HIS TRUTH--then...what's with the flipperue "stuff": and that attitude that lying is acceptable to God in order to "win souls" or keep them? "The end justifies the means" came from Machivelli ( )--not Christ! "The good" of the church--has come from "the right" done in the church "The wrong" of the church--has come from "the wrong" done in the church And "the system" --"of belief" instilled in EVERYONE that allows that wrong to take place...needs to be looked at (and gotten rid of). We (as a group): workers and believers and exes--are seeing the effects (for the first time)--as a group! Silence: isolated instances: isolated individuals: and individuals who were just shunned away--kept us (all) from feeling the impact: knowing about them: or--even SEEING them. (Do you think those who did wrong came back to the rest of the workers--or the believers--the real truth? and all the wrong that THEY had done???) I don't think so.... According to the letters I read last night, Dale and Jack agreed not to interfere in the events to do with Alberta. Unfortunately--no one can prevent the internet from entering anyone else's territory: or prevent anyone from taking their case to the rest of the believers. Before Alberta excommunications took place, anyone who had a problem with anything to do with our church either submitted (to whoever or whatever): or simply (and quietly) went away...shunned out of our existence. And "life" went on...the same as before...for all within the group. But with the Alberta Excommunications...someone changed the rules!!! And the individuals forgot to quietly just go away... You cannot change what you cannot see. The returning child says: "LOOK what you did to me" (and points out all the parents mistakes). And then the parent can see: and find out--maybe for the first time--the mistakes they made as a parent. Or the wrongs that they did. Never before has a large number of workers stood against the workers. And refused to submit "for the good of the kingdom or unity, or whatever). Never before has a group refused to just go away. And never before has the ministry (really) had to deal with the consequences of their actions. And never before have the believers had to examine "all things"--and make decisions--of this kind. Whether worker--or believer--we've all been subject to the same system...one in which truth gets sacrificed for something else. And we (worker and believer) have ALL been part of it... But now that awareness is setting in: and now that we can all see the effects: then...changes can take place.
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 14:24:18 GMT -5
amazed,
Sorry. The thread on Alberta Excommunications.
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 14:33:22 GMT -5
amazed,
oops. " Never before has a large number of workers stood against the workers"--should read "believers against the workers".
Of course, I'm only referring to our group and its history (not WI etc)
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