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Post by sjg on May 19, 2006 14:44:19 GMT -5
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Studylearning to as i c it
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Post by Studylearning to as i c it on May 19, 2006 15:06:10 GMT -5
My I add another view to the above part of your post.
A child grows to an adult and returns to the parent. They say see what you did to me. But then, because the child has grown moves on. They understand the error and pain created out of ignorance but now knowing the error choose not to continue perpetuating the error. They forgive (maybe/maybe not) but do not forget. They also do not go back.
And example. It has been shown over and over again that families which have extreme abuse in them pass this trait on to the children. The children repeat the abuse in their own children. Some have good counseling and recover from this viscous cycle. They in turn do not continue with this behavior. They move on with healthier life style.
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 15:50:07 GMT -5
Studylearning,
Everyone here came from the same set of parents. In a natural family, some move on, and away, and never come back. (Except, perhaps, for a special "get-to-gether"): but they still remain your brothers and sisters.
Some here will never return. I know that. But, they're here now...helping to solve "a family problem": or, maybe, working out an issue. And I think "our family" (the 2 x 2 church we all came from) will be stronger: and healtier, because of it.
Where everyone goes afterwards: or where they should now be: I don't know. But I'm sure the Holy Spirit does...
And I'm also sure that all that has taken place, has done so under God's control. (I mean, don't you find it odd that letters and documents were kept safe for 100 years???) I look at everything that's happened: and how it's all worked together: and think it's time we all graduated to a new level of learning. And maybe even started entering the world (as Christians) in ways of responsibility--and love--that we haven't done before.
Maybe "the wrongs" were what was "right" in order to keep us safe--as "babes in Christ". And while we learned the fundamentals. And now, maybe, as in a natural family, it's time we went into the world (not to become part of "the world") but part of the Christian one.
I look at nature, and I see systems within systems causing things to function. (All created by God). And I look at nature, and I see varieties (different trees: fruits: vegetables: flowers: and so on). And I look at the scriptures, and I see Christ's own words, saying that "they're on our part": and I look at the way "all things work together"--whether it be in the natural world, or the spiritual one.
Fanny (the hymn writer) was not "one of us": but--she was "on our part". (And on the part of many different churches).
And in the end, I believe in the Holy Spirit--and that He does work (as the scriptures say). And other than that...(the sentence right above this) I really know nothing!
Except I talk too much...for which I apologize.
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Post by selah on May 19, 2006 16:14:49 GMT -5
lol No, you don't talk too much. "Talking too much" to me, is when there are a lot of words and essentially very few messages with weight. Your thoughts float in on a cloud, but hold weighty significance. Thank you for posting. God has given you ability to see beyond the scattered pieces and into a much BIGGER picture. I think He's helping us to place the pieces together....it may take awhile....but I want to be part of it. It sounds like you do too! Blessings, Linda
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Post by amazed on May 19, 2006 16:54:48 GMT -5
as i c it
I admire the sincere thought and study you have put into this subject. It is wonderful that you don't blindly uphold all actions as perfect. I'm wondering if I understand correctly that many workers stood up against what happened in Alberta? That is wonderful if true.
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 18:08:30 GMT -5
Thank you, Linda. I always appreciate what you have to say too. And my thoughts are often the results of others, coming together, in some kind of mix, within me.
amazing,
No, the workers didn't come together against the workers. And I hope you saw that correction.
And I don't know that it was that the believers were so much against the workers...but just against whatever action (or lack of action) that was taking place. And maybe against the way the question was asked. and the situation being handled.
As you can see from Edgar's letters, he supported them....at first. And so did the elders --and believers-- (when they first went to them). Then, from what I read, it just...snowballed on them.
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Post by Court Transcript on May 19, 2006 18:39:12 GMT -5
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Post by nitro on May 19, 2006 19:10:10 GMT -5
It got started by a elder allowing a known gay couple to go to fellowship mtgs then one thing lead to another people were whee For a minute their I thought you were going to tell us some gossip.
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Post by hmmmmmm on May 19, 2006 21:39:43 GMT -5
Know at last I know the root of the great Alberta controversy: The workers objection to practicing gays in the church. Hmmmm....that's been known to occur in other conservative Christian denominations.
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Walter
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Post by Walter on May 19, 2006 22:38:34 GMT -5
It got started by a elder allowing a known gay couple to go to fellowship mtgs then one thing lead to another people were excommunicated and people were excommunicated for visiting the excommunicated. I guess the workers said certain wern't allowed to be in mtgs(gay) and when the workers found out that the elder allowed thats when all the trouble started. ........... THIS POST OF LLOYD'S IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE ...........I know all those that went to that meet place and asked if that in fact ever happened or was an item of discussion with the workers at any point and time just prior to the excommunications. The answer was absoluetly NOT. No Known GAY couple attended the meetings. This is not the first time this item has been presented as a fact when it is NOT. My parents were still alive when this suggestion first surfaced as a generated false fable. Lloyd has his wires mixed - up on this one.
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Post by l on May 19, 2006 22:41:03 GMT -5
It got started by a elder allowing a known gay couple to go to fellowship mtgs then one thing lead to another people were excommunicated and people were excommunicated for visiting the excommunicated. I guess the workers said certain wern't allowed to be in mtgs(gay) and when the workers found out that the elder allowed thats when all the trouble started. ........... THIS POST OF LLOYD'S IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE ...........I know all those that went to that meet place and asked if that in fact ever happened or was an item of discussion with the workers at any point and time just prior to the excommunications. The answer was absoluetly NOT. No Known GAY couple attended the meetings. This is not the first time this item has been presented as a fact when it is NOT. My parents were still alive when this suggestion first surfaced as a generated false fable. Lloyd has his wires mixed - up on this one. O.K. I've been set right on what happened I did post wrong I am very sorry for that incorrect post previously ,I did deleate it Thanks a million Walter for clearing things up over the phone
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Post by Think about it on May 20, 2006 1:24:16 GMT -5
History shows, The internet didn't exist in Luther's day. Nor did a choice between being Catholic (or something else). Luther (and all other events, and the times themselves) resulted in the Protestants coming into existence: and a choice becoming available. (At least, I believe that's how it went). This was not the first schism in the Catholic Church. Luther did not want to leave the Catholic Church, he wanted to reform it. The pele who want to reform the 2x2s should take a clue from history and leave and start their own church and avoid the power struggle that they will, in the end, lose. What does the Internet have to do with it? There was still a communication system. Is it blameor just a difference of beliefs? And in Luther's day hewas considered just about the same.
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Post by some may desire on May 20, 2006 2:09:49 GMT -5
Some may desire to change the 2x2 church...rather than to leave it. 2x2ism is fragile...as is evidenced by the insecurity of many of the brethren & workers in facing questions and challenges from both those in The Way, X's, as well as outsiders. A small amount of reform & change might be possible....but beyond that, the 2x2 church might be in danger of crumbling.
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Post by as i c it on May 20, 2006 2:15:01 GMT -5
Think about it,
1) It's true. Luther did just want to reform the Catholic Church: and did not want to leave it. 2) He was considered a heretic. 3) He did "lose"--but in the end, he also gained (as did we), because it was through his efforts to live a sinless life that he came to realize that it was impossible: and come to see that justification was by faith.
I think something has gone out of balance. As I've already stated on another thread, I think that certain concepts (that started off being good: and which did do good--for a certain period of time) over time...ended up doing wrong.
For example: "Fitting in" and "just accepting" statements. (or concepts). I think they worked to create a unity, and a peace--at first. But then, over time, fitting in (and just accepting all things) turned into a negative...whereby it became wrong to do (or think) anything--that didn't go along with the "group think".
Negative labelling: statements such as "troublemaker": or shunning: or stating that someone didn't "have it" yet: Or the attitude which took away an individual's right to argue, debate or question what was said (or believed) came into effect. Both making it a "wrong" or terrible thing if you didn't "just accept or fit in". With the individual who didn't, of course, feeling the negative effects.
So while fitting in etc. was good, at one time, it then became a negative because it removed truth--and the ability to freely express--or question--or disagree
Why are individuals posting on the internet? And why aren't they using their real names? (Because, for many, "it's wrong" to say anything that wouldn't be considered "right" by our church...and there would be negative consequences felt by that individual: and perhaps "shame" on their families)
So while there is a place for fitting in: and for accepting all things, there also has to be room for freedom of speech to take place (and even be encouraged), without any negative effects because of it.
New knowledge: new generations: new needs...means changes are needed in some areas, for truth to grow and thrive: and for the church to stay healthy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2006 5:39:02 GMT -5
It isn't all that unusual in the heat of a conflict, that even honest and well meaning folks can appear to be supporting unreasonable and morally questionable positions. However as time passes, and the true picture crystalizes, reality becomes obvious -- honest people will back off from positions that prove themselves to be in conflict with truth.
The most dissappointing aspect of 2x2ism that has proven itself in the Alberta fiasko, is that even after time has proven (without a doubt) the utter falseness and unChristian aspects of 2x2 leadership desisions at that time --- the unfallibility of the institutional "work" is STILL violently upheld by workers and 'faithfull friends' alike.
Everyone inside the cult refuses to accept any responsibility for the enormous pain that was actively inflicted on hundreds of folks. -- the shunning, belittlement and contempt still is actively propagated by membership, even today -- when the picture is become crystal clear.
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studylearning unplugged
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Post by studylearning unplugged on May 20, 2006 7:43:11 GMT -5
Studylearning, Everyone here came from the same set of parents. In a natural family, some move on, and away, and never come back. (Except, perhaps, for a special "get-to-gether"): but they still remain your brothers and sisters. Some here will never return. I know that. But, they're here now...helping to solve "a family problem": or, maybe, working out an issue. And I think "our family" (the 2 x 2 church we all came from) will be stronger: and healtier, because of it. Where everyone goes afterwards: or where they should now be: I don't know. But I'm sure the Holy Spirit does... And I'm also sure that all that has taken place, has done so under God's control. (I mean, don't you find it odd that letters and documents were kept safe for 100 years???) I look at everything that's happened: and how it's all worked together: and think it's time we all graduated to a new level of learning. And maybe even started entering the world (as Christians) in ways of responsibility--and love--that we haven't done before. Maybe "the wrongs" were what was "right" in order to keep us safe--as "babes in Christ". And while we learned the fundamentals. And now, maybe, as in a natural family, it's time we went into the world (not to become part of "the world") but part of the Christian one. I look at nature, and I see systems within systems causing things to function. (All created by God). And I look at nature, and I see varieties (different trees: fruits: vegetables: flowers: and so on). And I look at the scriptures, and I see Christ's own words, saying that "they're on our part": and I look at the way "all things work together"--whether it be in the natural world, or the spiritual one. Fanny (the hymn writer) was not "one of us": but--she was "on our part". (And on the part of many different churches). And in the end, I believe in the Holy Spirit--and that He does work (as the scriptures say). And other than that...(the sentence right above this) I really know nothing! Except I talk too much...for which I apologize. I am in agreement with you on this one. My comparison to natural family was that, Without change they may never return. In a spiritual sense without change those that move on as a direct result of Spiritual Growth and learning may find peace under Gods hand else where. When and if change occurs they may remain in their peace. It is sad that some who are strong in the Faith depart a fellowship because of overbearing "Group Think". I feel the most wonderful and spirit filled fellowship I have had were when I was alone under the Natural Sun and under the Hand of the Son. When high up in that mountain seeing all the beauty of Gods creation and then sitting down in the morning and studying the Scriptures and meditating on them was a spirit filled moment. Yes it is according to Gods Will.
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Studylearning unpluuged
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Post by Studylearning unpluuged on May 20, 2006 7:53:18 GMT -5
As i c it, I would like to have a little more the peacful nature that you have. I will work at it.
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Post by l on May 20, 2006 9:58:01 GMT -5
What is so frustrating is when one hears two differant sides to the story but now I know the workers are a bunch of liers. Was it Jim Knipe or Don Shenton that asked if certain stood by Willis and this ministry...this wasn't a issue I don't think it should of been obvious they were behind Willis and his ministry that wasn't a issue in the first place...take it from there? I did talk to Walter over the phone
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Post by as i c it on May 20, 2006 17:35:10 GMT -5
Studylearning, Thank you. From your postings, I think that you too have a very peaceful (and peace-loving) nature. However, to ensure there's no illusions between us, you also have to know that I have a temper and with certain postings, I think it shows. By the way: from what Linda said about my thoughts: they "float in on a cloud, but hold a weighty significance", do you think she thinks I'm a hot air balloon??? (I don't mind her saying my head's in the clouds...but...to mention my weight... Who'd have thought THAT of her... Romans 8:28 This verse is one that I often think of, whenever there are situations for which I can't find an answer to something that disturbs me. And like you, I also learn about God, or think about Him (and "life) from what I see and enjoy in nature.
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Post by l on May 20, 2006 17:36:50 GMT -5
Linda I believe is still proffessing
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Post by To edgar on May 20, 2006 18:27:03 GMT -5
Re your reply 42.
Are not the very aspects of the "cult membership" you condemn in this post, the very feelings you now show to members?
Hate and disdain can only last for so long. You eventually become what you hate...
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Post by selah on May 20, 2006 20:02:54 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D LOLOLOLOLOLO!!
Oh Lloyd...
I am still professing as in I DO profess Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord, but I do NOT "profess" in the f&w felllowship.
I'm actually very involved in a Pentecostal church (not United Pentecostal) and with a variety of denominational/non-denominational believers in the community.
I sometimes take my Mom to meeting, but I am an "observer only" (worker's request).
Blessings, Linda
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Post by déjà vu on May 20, 2006 21:08:43 GMT -5
quote by Linda; I sometimes take my Mom to meeting, but I am an "observer only" (worker's request). Linda, were you given a particular reason for for this request? BTW we used to meet with your Mom 20 plus years ago
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Post by selah on May 20, 2006 22:13:38 GMT -5
No reason was spoken, but the request was repeated twice in a very friendly, kind but firm manner, and she said, "for now".
I stated that I understood. In fact I said, "I hear ya, and I will will respect you in that." We both laughed while she nodded.
I believe the reason might be that I haven't been to meetings for 26 years. At the time I left, it was completely unacceptable to validate salvation or worship outside the f&w fellowship. This was made very clear in 1980 by the head worker of Manitoba.
Blessings, Linda
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