|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 9, 2007 22:32:17 GMT -5
I can see you are dancing around the question. I'm not dancing. You're the one with the missing varnish beneath your feet. No that's not it. Look at post reply 127. Sorry, couldn't find it again earlier. This is a long thread. Yes I have. You just haven't been paying attention or trying hard enough. I never said that. In fact here is what I said: Spanking is the subject.
I DO object when you SUBSTITUTE terms broader than "spanking" for "spanking". This is a political word game designed to mis-characterize genuine "spanking".
I DO NOT object when you USE terms broader than "spanking" and then SUBSEQUENTLY NARROW/QUALIFY THOSE terms for the purpose of providing a definition or description of "spanking".
Spanking is spanking.
Spanking is not hitting, punching, smacking, swatting, slapping, striking, banging, belting, slogging, smashing, swinging, walloping, and so on. But when, and only when, these terms have been qualified and narrowed, can they be used to define or describe spanking.
I'm not playing word games. You are playing word avoidance. See the definition I referenced and read, for the 3rd time, this: Spanking is the subject.
I DO object when you SUBSTITUTE terms broader than "spanking" for "spanking". This is a political word game designed to mis-characterize genuine "spanking".
I DO NOT object when you USE terms broader than "spanking" and then SUBSEQUENTLY NARROW/QUALIFY THOSE terms for the purpose of providing a definition or description of "spanking".
Spanking is spanking.
Spanking is not hitting, punching, smacking, swatting, slapping, striking, banging, belting, slogging, smashing, swinging, walloping, and so on. But when, and only when, these terms have been qualified and narrowed, can they be used to define or describe spanking.
I doubt you could stick with just that one term either. As soon as you catch up*, I'll address this. *More like IF you catch up which is unlikely, since it's becoming obvious you're not here to discuss, you're just here to play a bunch of silly little games.
|
|
|
Post by FLOGGER on Jul 9, 2007 23:46:03 GMT -5
You left out floggin', that is what I do to my kids-----they misbehave I just go on a tear and give em' a good ole fashioned floggin'. They straighten right up-----and lasts for months.
|
|
|
Post by SCREAMER on Jul 9, 2007 23:50:30 GMT -5
You left out screamin', that is what I do to my kids-----they misbehave I just go on a tear and give em' a good ole fashioned screamin'. They straighten right up-----and lasts for months.
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 10, 2007 0:03:31 GMT -5
Look at post reply 127. Sorry, couldn't find it again earlier. This is a long thread. Ahh. Now we are moving forward. The child is swatted. I wonder why you feel more comfortable with swat (To deal a sharp blow to; slap) than hit. Sometimes words other than the ones we are used to help make us look at our actions in a new light. From the child's point of view, is there a difference between being hit or spanked? When they mimic their parent's behavior and 'spank' their friends for not doing as they want them to is it appropriate to spank them? Several people (or one under various names) have posted that kids have to learn that in the real world, there are consequences to bad behavior. It has been my experience that the consequences are not be being hit. If we are really trying to teach them about real consequences, we should be teaching them about taking responsibility, making amends, understanding, apologizing, etc.
|
|
|
Post by one size fits all on Jul 10, 2007 0:07:02 GMT -5
When my exceptionally stubborn child began to resort to 'temper tantrums' I told her that I would not be in the same room because I did not enjoy that behavior but also offered her advice about the proper method of having a good temper tantrum including a reminder that she needed to scream, throw herself on the floor but from time to time she should get up and stamp her feet. I also added that I would be around if she had any questions.
When my exceptionally stubborn child began to resort to 'premarital sex' I told her that I would not be in the same room because I did not enjoy that behavior but also offered her advice about the proper method of having a good premarital sexual relationship including a reminder that she needed to scream, throw herself on the floor but from time to time she should get up and stamp her feet. I also added that I would be around if she had any questions or demonstrations.
Sad that it fits... and sick too!
You are a sick, sick, bastard!
|
|
thank god for ma and pa
Guest
|
Post by thank god for ma and pa on Jul 10, 2007 0:12:16 GMT -5
Culare in a way I'm glad you weren't my dad
You woulda had no idea what was goin on in my head
I'd of owned you by the time I was 12
What kindof adult I'd be is a scary thought!!
Thank God my ma and pa warmed my hind side a few times.
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Jul 10, 2007 2:58:41 GMT -5
I WISH I had been spanked more... Then I might not have been such a spoiled little brat!
|
|
|
Post by Cularesdaughter on Jul 10, 2007 11:33:20 GMT -5
I wish Culare had been my father! I know what it's liked to be "spanked". It causes self-doubt, self-esteem problems for the rest of the child's life. Oftentimes this manifests in subtle ways and sometimes not so subtle.
A man like Culare would have been great because he's obviously looking for different ways to teach, guide, and bring children up other than hitting them.
Go Culare!! I have totally enjoyed your imput!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 10, 2007 13:58:52 GMT -5
Ahh. Now we are moving forward. Ever so slowly. Are you getting tired of the old word game or are you just super dense? No no no no no. There you go again. First "swatting" was qualified: Spanking is the act of swatting a child on their rear-end in a controlled manner.Then "controlled manner" was further qualified by five criteria: As it relates to spanking, a 'controlled manner' means that a spanking is administered according to a number of criteria: (1) In an age appropriate manner, the child must know what is expected of them and what the rules are regarding appropriate behavior. (2) The child must be old enough to have a basic understanding of the language, even if the only word they understand is "no". (3) The parent must make the decision to spank based on a reasonable and logical analysis of the situation. Furthermore, the parent must abandon the decision to spank should introspection reveal that an element of anger or revenge had a part in the decision to spank. (4) Prior to the spanking, younger children must be reminded that what they did was wrong and older children must be told why they are being punished. This can range from a firm "no" for younger children to a firm "You were told to clean your room and you disobeyed" for older children. (5) The number and intensity of swats must be controlled to impart a reasonable amount of pain appropriate for the size and build of the child.I am not comfortable with either if they aren't qualified. Yes and you think this is what you are doing but what you are really doing is using my words out of context to mis-characterize what I have said. You are obviously quite skilled at playing these games and are used to people falling for them. Sorry to rain on your parade but not this time. I can see right through you. Yes. Children are more perceptive than you give them credit for. They can sense the emotions that drive those they interact with. When I was a kid, I was hit by other kids and I was spanked by my parents. Not once did I associate the two. I think this had to do with my parents approach. It was patient, kind, calm, reasonable, and they talked with me about it. I can see how a parent who impulsively spanks in rage and anger would have kids who become adults that associate spanking and hitting, are never able to differentiate between the two, and oppose spanking seeing it only as hitting. (A qualified) yes. I'm sure some parents (especially those prone to impulsively spanking in rage and anger) jump straight to spanking. Your above statement makes it obvious that this is your experience and I'm really sorry for that. As difficult as it is for you to grasp, try to understand that good parents use spanking when they understand that nothing else will do. In other words, when I got a spanking for kicking my brother in the groin, it was only after I'd ignored their example and counsel to behave more appropriately. Children mimic their parents behavior. But they also mimic the behavior of others around them. From my bully neighbor, I learned to hit people when they made me mad. I learned not to do it by loving parents who understood that my irrational emotions would not respond to reasonable dialog but that I would respond to a spanking. They were right. It worked. It's interesting that you don't even know what a consequence is. Taking responsibility, making amends, understanding, and apologizing are just part of "real consequences". Punishment must follow. Otherwise, the world according to you would work like this: A man kills his wife, gets caught, says "I'm sorry", then is released to repeat the crime. Hmmm. Now that I think of it, we are seeing more of this idiocy nowadays. Some convicted child molesters are being released without serving jail time. As long as they apologize I suppose this makes you happy.
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 10, 2007 14:06:40 GMT -5
I know what it's liked to be "spanked". It causes self-doubt, self-esteem problems for the rest of the child's life. Oftentimes this manifests in subtle ways and sometimes not so subtle. I can see how a parent who impulsively spanks in rage and anger would have kids who become adults that associate spanking and hitting, are never able to differentiate between the two, and oppose spanking seeing it only as hitting. I'm sure some parents (especially those prone to impulsively spanking in rage and anger) jump straight to spanking. Your above statement makes it obvious that this is your experience and I'm really sorry for that. As difficult as it is for you to grasp, try to understand that good parents use spanking when they understand that nothing else will do. In other words, when I got a spanking for kicking my brother in the groin, it was only after I'd ignored their example and counsel to behave more appropriately.
|
|
|
Post by Leaders Followers on Jul 10, 2007 14:30:51 GMT -5
Some kids are headstrong and not prone to taking direction from others. These kids don't give in without a fight. These kids can't be directed without spanking. These kids make great leaders.
Some kids are highly suggestible and easily influenced by direction from others. These kids give in without a fight. These kids can be directed with talking. These kids make great followers.
All you persistent I-am-righters need to face facts. The world needs leaders and the world needs followers. This is nature. People are different and what works for some doesn't work for others, just as the destination of some is not the destination of others.
|
|
|
Post by myopinion on Jul 10, 2007 15:22:27 GMT -5
Some kids are headstrong and not prone to taking direction from others. These kids don't give in without a fight. These kids can't be directed without spanking. These kids make great leaders. Some kids are highly suggestible and easily influenced by direction from others. These kids give in without a fight. These kids can be directed with talking. These kids make great followers. All you persistent I-am-righters need to face facts. The world needs leaders and the world needs followers. This is nature. People are different and what works for some doesn't work for others, just as the destination of some is not the destination of others. Interesting theory. I wonder how it could be tested though.
|
|
|
Post by expectdenial on Jul 10, 2007 15:24:59 GMT -5
I can see how a parent who impulsively spanks in rage and anger would have kids who become adults that associate spanking and hitting, are never able to differentiate between the two, and oppose spanking seeing it only as hitting. I'm sure some parents (especially those prone to impulsively spanking in rage and anger) jump straight to spanking. Your above statement makes it obvious that this is your experience and I'm really sorry for that. As difficult as it is for you to grasp, try to understand that good parents use spanking when they understand that nothing else will do. In other words, when I got a spanking for kicking my brother in the groin, it was only after I'd ignored their example and counsel to behave more appropriately. I might agree with you mostly but this statement is only going to be dealt with by denial. Abused kids rarely admit to childhood abuse, especially when that abuse is key to how they raise their own kids.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Jul 10, 2007 20:53:56 GMT -5
Some kids are headstrong and not prone to taking direction from others. These kids don't give in without a fight. These kids can't be directed without spanking. These kids make great leaders. Your theory is that the children were born that way? Not that their behavior is learned? What are the qualities that make these people great leaders? Do you mean a great leader like Bush who refuses to listen to others? Just think about the leaders who went their own way against the advice of everyone. Name those who accomplished something that impressed you.
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 10, 2007 21:12:01 GMT -5
When my exceptionally stubborn child began to resort to 'premarital sex' I told her that I would not be in the same room because I did not enjoy that behavior but also offered her advice about the proper method of having a good premarital sexual relationship including a reminder that she needed to scream, throw herself on the floor but from time to time she should get up and stamp her feet. I also added that I would be around if she had any questions or demonstrations. Sad that it fits... and sick too! You are a sick, sick, bastard! Let's look at this - I offered an alternative solution to dealing with temper tantrums that did not involve spanking or inflicting pain on a child. You have turned it into something sexual and added the word demonstration as well. Yet you have judged I am the sick one? Personally, I find it interesting that in responding to a post about spanking you would come up with a sexual example.
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 10, 2007 21:25:35 GMT -5
Culare in a way I'm glad you weren't my dad You woulda had no idea what was goin on in my head I'd of owned you by the time I was 12 Given the people I work with I seriously doubt you would have been much of a challenge. I have had several patients who thought they were the toughest guys in the world and because I was not aggressive that they too would 'own' me. It has never been the case. At some point you will learn where real strength comes from.
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 10, 2007 22:28:09 GMT -5
First "swatting" was qualified: Spanking is the act of swatting a child on their rear-end in a controlled manner.Then "controlled manner" was further qualified by five criteria: As it relates to spanking, a 'controlled manner' means that a spanking is administered according to a number of criteria: (1) In an age appropriate manner, the child must know what is expected of them and what the rules are regarding appropriate behavior. (2) The child must be old enough to have a basic understanding of the language, even if the only word they understand is "no". (3) The parent must make the decision to spank based on a reasonable and logical analysis of the situation. Furthermore, the parent must abandon the decision to spank should introspection reveal that an element of anger or revenge had a part in the decision to spank. (4) Prior to the spanking, younger children must be reminded that what they did was wrong and older children must be told why they are being punished. This can range from a firm "no" for younger children to a firm "You were told to clean your room and you disobeyed" for older children. (5) The number and intensity of swats must be controlled to impart a reasonable amount of pain appropriate for the size and build of the child.Good. Now we are on the same page. You believe that it is acceptable to inflict pain on a child. Enough pain that is sufficient to modify the child's behavior. We can forget about the words used to describe the means by the pain is inflicted and let it be understood that you are not hitting or slapping the child but just using your hand in a manner to cause pain to the child. I am trying hard to use your words as you wish. I know you are not happy with any action verbs that describe any contact between you and your child so the easy thing is to just look at the end result and assume that it was the result of some action taken by you against your child in a very controlled and calculated manner. You make it difficult to carry on a discussion because you demand that all of the words used conform to your exact definition. I posted the definitions from a variety of dictionaries but you would not accept any of them. And they can drive those with whom they interact. During what age range did your parents spank you? My parents didn't spank me or my siblings so that was not my experience at all.
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 11, 2007 8:35:56 GMT -5
Your theory is that the children were born that way? Not that their behavior is learned? What are the qualities that make these people great leaders? Do you mean a great leader like Bush who refuses to listen to others? Oh there you go! Polarize the people here even further by spewing a bunch of off-topic political rhetoric. Go away troll. Are you trying to suggest that all the bad leaders were spanked and only the good leaders were not spanked? Very funny. But maybe believable in your mind especially if you are in charge of defining a "bad leader" and a "good leader". Thanks for the laugh.
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 11, 2007 8:49:35 GMT -5
Let's look at this - I offered an alternative solution to dealing with temper tantrums that did not involve spanking or inflicting pain on a child. You have turned it into something sexual and added the word demonstration as well. Yet you have judged I am the sick one? Personally, I find it interesting that in responding to a post about spanking you would come up with a sexual example. First of all, it wasn't me. Second, I did find it a bit in poor taste. I'm not a fan of sexual references where children are concerned. Third, I did find it fitting, because it illustrates the (apparent to some) folly of your child-rearing techniques. Fourth, I did find it a bit amusing, because it uses your own debate tactic against you. Fifth, I guess I'm not quite the prude you are because IMO sex is part of life and using it in an example is not out of line. Sixth, would you have been less indignant and outraged if the example had been about murder, theft, drug use, assault, drunk driving, lying under oath, or arson rather than sex? Seventh, is there any possibility, and would you be honest enough to admit, that your strong reaction was due to the illustrative and effective yet brief nature of the post?
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 11, 2007 10:28:11 GMT -5
I am trying hard to use your words as you wish. I'm sorry you feel so boxed in but I've read pages back when you were posting as "Random Acts of Kindness" and I know that if I don't choose my words carefully, you will take the words I use out of context. There you go again. You keep doing that. I don't mind certain words as long as they are properly qualified. I keep enlarging this hoping you will get it. Here it is again. Please read it this time. Note where I wrote "NARROW/QUALIFY": Spanking is the subject.
I DO object when you SUBSTITUTE terms broader than "spanking" for "spanking". This is a political word game designed to mis-characterize genuine "spanking".
I DO NOT object when you USE terms broader than "spanking" and then SUBSEQUENTLY NARROW/QUALIFY THOSE terms for the purpose of providing a definition or description of "spanking".
Spanking is spanking.
Spanking is not hitting, punching, smacking, swatting, slapping, striking, banging, belting, slogging, smashing, swinging, walloping, and so on. But when, and only when, these terms have been qualified and narrowed, can they be used to define or describe spanking.
This is fine, but please don't take my words out of context here either. I'm sorry but you've shown a tendency to take things out of context and ignore certain details. I guess I'm just being cautious (not that it's done me much good). Dictionary definitions do little to make a discussion reasonable when one of the parties is determined to abuse the language. You like to use "hit" which in my dictionary has more than 30 definitions. This leaves you plenty of room for interpretation (or when it comes to castigating me, misinterpretation). I don't get your point. When I was about 1 I'm guessing. It's done a little differently when the child can't carry on a conversation. Were you ever punished at all? Yes but I don't remember how many times. I remember my dad talking to me about it at least once. He didn't spank me then. Heck no. You give me to much credit. I was a little kid. One time I did it because I was pissed at him for losing one of my action figures. Another time I did it because I was mad that he crashed into me on his tricycle and caused me to wreck on my bike and skin my elbow. To modify behavior? Yes. No. As I said earlier, I learned the groin kick thing from a neighbor kid. He did it to me once and I learned that it hurt real bad. So when I got pissed at other kids, I did it to them. I don't understand. What "end result" are you talking about? My brother later lost more of my action figures. My brother and I had a lot more bike wrecks. But I eventually got a spanking for the groin kick thing and never did it again. How were the end results similar? Well on the first offense it is often the case that the child doesn't know better. Other than that though, yes I do see punishment as a requirement for consequences. The whole "no punishment" thing is a real mystery to me. I would think you would have to live in a very sheltered, already-controlled environment to never see the need for punishment of some form. Can you give an example? Because the only one I can think of is offering a bank robber a safe, high yield investment for his newly acquired wealth. I'm sorry but you are just plain wrong. Unless I'm not getting a play on words. Do you mean once they are deterred they are no longer criminals? Punishment may not deter all criminals from repeating their crime, but it does work on some. First of all, inmates are people. Second, inmates harm other inmates. Third, are you saying separating them from society (jail/incarceration) is NOT a form of punishment? I have a relative that went to jail for robbing a gas station. I see him often and know that he would tell you that his incarceration was punishment. Also years later, there is no doubt that he was deterred from doing it again. You misunderstood. I was talking about consequences and punishment. Just as you were. In all cases? No. In some cases? Yes.
|
|
|
Post by Culares Daughter on Jul 11, 2007 11:14:12 GMT -5
Yesterday at 11:33am, Cularesdaughter wrote:
I know what it's liked to be "spanked". It causes self-doubt, self-esteem problems for the rest of the child's life. Oftentimes this manifests in subtle ways and sometimes not so subtle.
Flyball: "I can see how a parent who impulsively spanks in rage and anger would have kids who become adults that associate spanking and hitting, are never able to differentiate between the two, and oppose spanking seeing it only as hitting.
I'm sure some parents (especially those prone to impulsively spanking in rage and anger) jump straight to spanking. Your above statement makes it obvious that this is your experience and I'm really sorry for that. As difficult as it is for you to grasp, try to understand that good parents use spanking when they understand that nothing else will do. In other words, when I got a spanking for kicking my brother in the groin, it was only after I'd ignored their example and counsel to behave more appropriately."
Flyball....for me having experienced this.... I just have to agree with Culare here. I think it's almost impossible to spank, hit or hurt a child (corporal punishment) without having some anger present. I have children. I have spanked a few times and if there is one thing I could go back and change about the past it would have been the rare and few times that I used physical punishment to get what I wanted out of my children. But then.... my children were not what you'd call "difficult"children--- stubborn sometimes but not such that any or them would ever have needed to be hit. It just is not your best method for teaching a child to become an independent mentally healthy adult.
I learned better ways.... because I remembered the pain of being spanked myself. There are much better ways and methods than resorting to spanking which undermines the child's self worth. But that's just one woman's opinion and I realize that among people of this church, this is a very volitile subject.
I really have enjoyed reading Culare's words here and would love to meet this person in person because he/she's my kind of person!
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 11, 2007 12:41:23 GMT -5
Flyball....for me having experienced this.... I just have to agree with Culare here. I think it's almost impossible to spank, hit or hurt a child (corporal punishment) without having some anger present. By hit or hurt, I'm assuming you really mean spank. This may be true for you in your experience. But I don't think your experience is true of the majority. There is no shortage of impatient, angry, and hostile parents in this world. This saddens and sickens me as I cannot understand for the life of me how a parent could be wired to let anything (physically or emotionally) come between them and their love for their child. It boggles my mind and frankly has been known to provoke me to the point of confrontation and activism.* It makes me sick to think of kids being punished (spanked or other) out of anger. I don't get angry with my kids very often but when I do and they are in need of punishment, I explain to them that we will "deal with it" later because "I need to think about it for a while" then when I've had enough time to cool off, I punish them as needed, if needed. (Sometimes cooling off makes me realize that while they may need to be educated in some regard, they do not deserve to face consequences for their actions for whatever reason.) I love my kids to much to punish them when my judgment is impaired. I'd rather die in agony (literally) than put my kids through the trauma of knowing that the one person they should be able to trust in all things was responsible for inflicting the assault of an anger driven punishment upon them. * I saw a woman abusing her daughter in public last year. I recorded the abuse on my cell phone and called 911. She was arrested, I gave the authorities the video. I went to her hearing prepared to testify. She lost custody. In my observations, most parents who spank out of anger will alternately punish out of anger as well. Neither is healthy. Have you thought about seeing your pastor or a counselor about it? By hit, I'm assuming you really mean spank. Be careful what you say here or some people might accuse you of murdering ("hit" slang) your child. Amiable children are wonderful! We have a teenage daughter who we have never had to spank. I agree with this in cases where anger is a fixed part of the equation. Then again, when it comes to children, any form of punishment can be harmful when it is driven by anger. Perhaps your ultimate "best method" would be to find a way to take the anger out of the equation. Pain can be physical but it can also be emotional. You make an intersting point though: If anger cannot (or will not)be removed from the equation is is better to find an alternative to spanking? I would have to say yes, since anger can make physical contact dangerous. This may be true for you but is not necessarily the experience of everyone else. Try to be a little more open minded. This is nothing more than conjecture. Or maybe not I suppose in your case, since you've included anger as part of your definition of spanking. Just the people of this church? Spanking is a touchy subject just about anywhere in my experience. I'm looking forward to culare expanding on his "punishment is wrong" theme. Do you concur with his anti-punishment beliefs?
|
|
|
Post by Culares Daughter on Jul 11, 2007 13:52:18 GMT -5
Flyball, I'm fairly new here. I don't know how to respond in kind with this format so will do the best I know how.
My children are long raised now. We spanked very little---VERY LITTLE---- in a time when society accepted spanking as a means of discipline. In fact we were fairly controversial in The Truth because people thought we should spank our children in meeting when they made some noise.... and we didn't.
In my opinion I'm very glad to see people in the church become more loving and less violent with their children now. It didn't used to be this way where I was raised and at the time I was raised.
Later when I became a mother, the reason we chose other options in a time when most people in our society (and especially in The Truth) were not even aware that there were other options for punishing or disciplling children is because I was so aware of the impact on me. I was determined not to perpetuate this down to the next generation. At least in MY family....
(psst.... my children are pretty well-adjusted adults and parents themselves now who haven't had to traverse the emotional difficulites I did) Thank God for that!
Back in those days---it was unheard of for someone like you to turn a parent in for child abuse. Most people turned their heads and pretended not to see. Most people justified it as good parenting. I did not and never have.
I saw an elder of the meeting use a 2X4 on his teenager once. In my day it was acceptable to abuse children in the name of discipline. And then there was a lot of lesser abuse but as far as I'm concerned it's ALL abuse and I do not want to ever broaden my mind to accept child abuse in any form. Sorry! Hitting, spanking, demeaning them in any physical form I view as child abuse. And yes we can find ways not to abuse them emotionally also. It's a poor way to raise children whether they are easy or hard to raise.
I do not believe people can spank their children without there being some emotion involved....whether you want to call it anger, irritation, frustration.......whatever. I do not believe people can spank with a calm demeanor, so if you tell me that you can, I just don't believe it. I haven't seen it done and I've witnessed a lot of spanking in my time.
I think Culare might have some very important suggestions on alternatives if anyone can get past the arguing that spanking is the right thing to do....but so far the subject has stopped on the same-old controvery that I dealt with before in this religion...
People like you who try to convince people like me that spanking a child is great disciplinary action.
I don't buy it for one minute.
|
|
|
Post by FlyBall on Jul 11, 2007 14:35:23 GMT -5
My children are long raised now. Great! As was your right as parents. Most people do make choices based on their own observations so you are not unique here. I'm sorry you were treated inappropriately as a child. I applaud you for this. Great! Amen. Only a monster would characterize the abuse I witnessed as anything other than abuse. The use of objects in spanking is irrelevant. What matters is the resulting force. I use my hand. My wife uses a small paddle. I can exert much more force with my bare hand than she can exert with the paddle. I'm 39. I have never known child abuse to be acceptable. I suspect you and I have different definitions of abuse. This makes all the difference. I think spanking, done right, is not abuse. You think spanking is abuse without exception. There is no common ground here as to what constitutes abuse. If your experience has taught you that all spanking is demeaning then you have not been witness to appropriate spanking. Maybe proper spanking is rarer than I thought. Maybe you don't get out much. Regardless, spanking, done right, is not demeaning. I'm sorry for your unpleasant childhood. I think that emotional abuse and neglect of children is the NUMBER ONE problem, bar none, in any category, on this planet. And by the way, the woman I reported for abuse that lost custody of her child was not physically abusive. It was all emotional abuse. You are entitled to believe what you want. This doesn't make you right, especially when it comes to something as broad and sweeping as the statement you just made. Call me a liar if you want. Perhaps that will serve as an outlet for the anger and frustration you are feeling now. But all the hate you can muster doesn't change who I am. Most people see things through the tinted glasses of their own experiences. This includes myself as well as you. I'm sorry you have failed to perceive proper spanking in your time. I'd love to get past the word games but as of his last post, he was still taking my words out of context. I'll move on when he does. If I wanted to convince you of anything, I would try to convince you that maybe - just maybe - your experiences are not necessarily those of everyone else. I wish you could hear yourself and understand just how goofy you sound when you make some of your broad sweeping generalizations. You seem angry. Should we stop discussing this? I don't want to put you through any more trauma than you've already been through.
|
|
oh yea uh huh right
Guest
|
Post by oh yea uh huh right on Jul 11, 2007 16:02:29 GMT -5
Later when I became a mother, the reason we chose other options in a time when most people in our society (and especially in The Truth) were not even aware that there were other options for punishing or disciplling children is because I was so aware of the impact on me. I was determined not to perpetuate this down to the next generation. At least in MY family.... So you were abused and you're giving advice?
psst.... my children are pretty well-adjusted adults Well aren't they all?
Back in those days---it was unheard of for someone like you to turn a parent in for child abuse World's full of wackjobos turning other people in. Mind yer own effin business I say.
I saw an elder of the meeting use a 2X4 on his teenager once. Well if that's what it takes. Who are you to judge.
I haven't seen it done and I've witnessed a lot of spanking in my time. So that makes you the official now it all huh?
People like you who try to convince people like me that spanking a child is great disciplinary action. Convince this beeaatch, MYOFB.
I don't buy it for one minute.[/quote]
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 12, 2007 8:05:04 GMT -5
First of all, it wasn't me. I don't recall ever saying it was anyone but the poster to whom I replied. Well, we at least agree on this point. Are you saying that because the event I related would not be appropriate in dealing with adults who were caught drunk driving means it could not be effective in dealing with a child? Are you suggesting that we spank drug users as a cure? Children frequently have temper tantrums for a variety of reasons but in almost every case if the adult can remain calm, allow the child a time to calm down, try to inject a little humor into the situation, and bring the child to realize that than no matter how long they want to scream that they will not be getting their own way the behavior will be extinguished. Behavior only continues if it returns positive results. Lest there be any mistake, by positive I mean in the eyes, in this case, of the child. The positive result for a child might well be any attention from the parents, even if that attention is punishment. Please indicate where I have inappropriate child sexuality and/or parent-child sexual dynamics as a debate tactic. Sex is indeed part of life and I can not think of any case where it would be at all appropriate to spank a child for some sexual offense. You may condone the use of child sexuality and the idea of a sexual demonstration between a parent and child to make a point but, even at the risk of being called prudish, I do not. The comment was regarding a child having a temper tantrum not about an adult. The comparison was to a child having sex. How do murder, DUI, etc. relate to my example of how one might deal with a child's temper tantrum? If that were the reason I would have no problem. My reaction was to the graphic idea presented of children having sex and the implication that the caregiver was looking for a demonstration.
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 12, 2007 11:55:03 GMT -5
There you go again. You keep doing that. I don't mind certain words as long as they are properly qualified. I keep enlarging this hoping you will get it. Here it is again. Please read it this time. Note where I wrote There is no need to enlarge the font. It makes it no more understandable than yelling at someone who doesn't speak your language. It seems to me that what you want to do is to use your own specific meanings for common words because you do not like their implication. That is fine. I try very hard to quote the whole idea you have expressed. In this case you did say that spanking resulted in inflicting enough pain to modify the child's behavior. I have no problem using the narrow definitions you have provided. The end result is just as you stated no matter how you describe the action. Sufficient pain, in an appropriate manner, is inflicted on the child to modify their behavior. The point was that children are experts are knowing just which or their parent's buttons to push. Very often it is the child that is driving the situation and not the parent. So the lower limit of the range when your parents spanked you was 1. What was the upper limit? Rarely, but yes I was, but not corporal punishment. The vast majority of the time it was through positive and/or negative reinforcement. Would it be fair to say that you knew if you did it again your Dad was going to spank you? So it was out of anger. So this is in your mind completely different from spanking in that you were attempting to hurt someone for perceived wrongs as a punishment. It seems I was mistaken. So the punishment as a means of behavior modification did not work for your brother but it did for you. Different end results. Punishment is the fastest way to eliminate a specific behavior. This was the theme of "A Clockwork Orange" where unwanted behavior was extinguished by the government. The problem was that the treated people were not being good by choice but because of induced fear. No corporal punishment is very different from no punishment. Doesn't your child live in sheltered well controlled environment? We are discussing parents spanking their children not prison guards in a maximum security prison. Sure - when your children exhibit the correct behavior praise them. This would be a form of positive reinforcement. But when they do not exhibit the desired behavior they are not praised. This would be negative reinforcement. Nope - I mean that our prisons are filled with people who have been punished for crimes multiple times. If the punishment method worked the number of repeat offenders would be very low. In some locals it is as high as 80%. On the extreme (and this is not to be seen as a comparison to spanking), Texas executes the highest number of people a year for crime and has the highest homicide rate. The threat of even severe punishment does not seem to deter people in that case, but it is highly likely that, once punished, they will not become repeat offenders! My issue is that it does not even work on half of the people. Yes I know prisoners are people. That is why we actually have laws to protect them from corporal punishment. The issue of inmates harming inmates - here again is a case when the punishment for doing so is there but it does not prevent the behavior. Actually it could be seen as a negative reinforcement. The correct behavior would be encouraged. But in reality - it is a punishment for a specific behavior. That is an unsupported conclusion. We have no way of knowing if it was the prison term that stopped the behavior or not. Many people have stolen something and not been caught and it never happened again. We were talking about spanking children. In all cases? No. In some cases? Yes.[/quote] But it appears that it is successful in the minority of the cases.
|
|
|
Post by culare on Jul 12, 2007 11:59:39 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to culare expanding on his "punishment is wrong" theme. Do you concur with his anti-punishment beliefs? I am not sure I ever said punishment was wrong. For the long term I do not believe it works well and has negative consequences. I also do not believe it is something we want to be teaching the future citizens.
|
|