My mother says

[Son of mother]

My mother says that we do not need to bother our selves with questions regarding the likes of Irvine or Cooney. What is important, she says, is that what we see in the modern 2x2 church, is just what one sees...that Christ established during His time....and instructed Paul & the others, to carry forth. And so it has been carried forth...unto this very day...my mother says.

She also adds, that there is a "Swiss connection", as well as a "Armenian connection", having something-or-other to do with the apostolic succession of 2x2-ism that has been handed down to us...to this very day.

So....apparently, 2x2ism DID EXIST prior to Wm. Irvine.

[ithascome]

Mom knows best.

[bowhunter]

Son said:

My mother says that we do not need to bother our selves with questions regarding the likes of Irvine or Cooney. What is important, she says, is that what we see in the modern 2x2 church, is just what one sees...that Christ established during His time....and instructed Paul & the others, to carry forth. And so it has been carried forth...unto this very day...my mother says.

She also adds, that there is a "Swiss connection", as well as a "Armenian connection", having something-or-other to do with the apostolic succession of 2x2-ism that has been handed down to us...to this very day.

So....apparently, 2x2ism DID EXIST prior to Wm. Irvine.

Yes,in one form or another since 70 AD.

[mothers son]

Many professing people, or workers, cannot be bothered with the Wm. Irvine thing. Whether or not there is historical data linking the First Century apostles to the Irvine & the Scotch-Irish workers of circa 1900...it does not matter. The only important thing is....that the TRUE way of Jesus, is alive...and well, in the 2x2 faith..

[LaContessa]

I was born and raised Catholic. When I went to Gospel meeting in my late teens, it wasn't the Gospel of Wm Irvine I heard, it was the Gospel of Jesus Christ to my own heart. His spirit was in the message I was receiving from the mouth of common women (in my case, it was female servants; how progressive back in the '70's) In the 80's when I first read "The Secret Sect" my first thought was of Jesus asking his Disciples..."Will you go too?" and their reply was "To who Lord, shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." So, no, my life was not shaken by this revelation. I have relied on the countless, daily miracles of God's assurances that I am walking according to his Spirit's direction. Any time I step off track, all I have to do is read 2 Cor 3, 4 & 5 to be reminded of what "I HAVE" because of the revelation I have received. Are there people wrong within this fellowship? Yes, there is, but I hold myself accountable to no man and will still do my best to be a reflection of my Father in showing love for all men's souls. For without charity, we have nothing. I love my fellowship with others in the place where I am. This is my personal journey and I respect that other's may have an opinion that is different than mine, But what is between me and my Lord is very real to me and no man can take that from me. Peace to all who come here.

[jungo]

LaContessa, would you do me a favor then. Will you go around to everyone in your group and tell them about Irvine William. Even all the workers. And will you tell them they dont need to lie no more nor cover up the truth that this can be traced to a man.

I specificaly asked before I professed if this couild be traced to a man, and the answer was no it couldn't be.

From what i understand there have been people excomunicated because they want this lie to stop.

So would you please do that and let me know how it goes. Heres my email [e-mail].....please give it to them so they can personaly e mail me as well as you how the big lie wont be spread no more thank you.

The reason i professed wasn't because of the geneology connection niether, it was because of revalation.
But how can God give a true revalation when theres a lie behind it?

[guestS]

TRUE salvation is NOT about any "revelation." That is what William Irvine claimed ....he had a "revelation." And that "revelation" became his alpha gospel which was based on Matthew 10....going out in pairs, homeless, and unpaid. That is NOT the gospel of salvation. The Biblical "gospel" says that God sent His Son to die in MY place, for MY sins and that by faith I can accept His gift of grace and have eternal life....and KNOW in this lifetime that I HAVE eternal life. I don't have to wait till death to find out IF I have been good enough. William Irvine also received a second "revelation" which he called the "omega gospel" to distinguish it from his first so called "revelation." He claimed to be one of the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation chapter 11. He formed the idea that he had been divinely anointed to bring the last message of Jesus Christ to the world before the final judgement which he predicted would be in August 1914. He ideas (revelations) became so off the wall that even his own followers banished him to Jerusalem.

[ex-teenager]

William Irvine - Jungo!

[jungo]

thanks teen forgot

[to Jungo]

LaContessa said:

I was born and raised Catholic. When I went to Gospel meeting in my late teens, it wasn't the Gospel of Wm Irvine I heard, it was the Gospel of Jesus Christ to my own heart.


Jungo,

Read these lines again!

LaContessa said she heard the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST.There was no mention of William Irvine,so where is the lack of clarity?
If 2X2 ers ever thought they were listening to the Gospel of William Irvine I am sure they would NOT be a part of this fellowship!

[liz]

What ANY church that claims apostolic succession fails to realize is that Jesus wasn't trying to establish a new church - after all he was Jewish.

Jesus was attempting to reform the hypocrisy & shallow-ness of the accepted way of worship. He was trying to expose the extreme legalism of the Sadduces & Pharisees which was hindering the overall spirituality of the Jews.

I don't read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus established his own 'way'.....

[The problem]

"She also adds, that there is a "Swiss connection", as well as a "Armenian connection", having something-or-other to do with the apostolic succession of 2x2-ism that has been handed down to us...to this very day.

So....apparently, 2x2ism DID EXIST prior to Wm. Irvine."

The problem here? There is NO Swiss connection. Think about what you/she is saying. On one hand William Irine doesn't matter, just the modern church. On the other hand a weak, unfounded attempt to establish apostoplic succession. So the question - does it matter or not? Allow your mind to process the issue logically...it has to go one way or the other. So which is it?

[Cherie]

RE: "She also adds, that there is a "Swiss connection", as well as a "Armenian connection", having something-or-other to do with the apostolic succession of 2x2-ism..."

Copuld you please track down the details of the Swiss and Armenian connections? I've been trying to do this for 15 years, and have been unsuccessful.

Also, you and your mother might find this an interesting read:
home.earthlink.net/~truth333/BRG4-4-7WmIBook.html#Chapter%203

[jungo]

I understand LaContessa, what you said. I realize they arnt preaching about William irvine. You can believe what ever gospel you want to. But when someone asks if this can be traced back to a man, you guys say no. Thats a lie. So I was just wondering if you were going to correct everyone in your faith so that when an outsider asks the big question? You'll say Irvine Williams right.

I dont think there can be a true revalation with a lie. You have totaly avoided anything I asked you to do. I don't think the reason that you gave is a sound reason to lie about and cover up the history of your church. Don't you want your ministers to be honest?

[as i c it]

A church built by Christ--would not need "not quite right truths"--in any form---to build it: or maintain it.

I just read the link Cherie mentions above. Wish all the workers would read it too....)

[jungo]

I'm sorry i thought LaContessa was writting me back but it was Guest.

Ok I took some more time to reflect on this discussion I conjured up.

So I am talking to guest and if LaContessa is listening thats fine.

I WAS BORN ABD RAISED CATHOLIC. WHEN I WENT TO GOSPEL MTG IN MY LATE TEENS, IT WASN'T THE GOSPEL OF WILLIAM IRVINEI HEARD, IT WAS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST TO MY OWN HEART.

GUEST YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE WILLIAM IRVINE IS NOT MENTIONED THEREFORE IT IS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST?

I'm going to spell this out the way I see it.

Before I professed, I had a spiritual awakening called a born again experience just by asking jesus into my heart in my home.

One thing that was important to me was to learn about different faiths and what they believed. A lot of that learning came from the history of the church, and when it started it and who started it.

So when I met the truth,I asked them if this faith could be traced back to a man? They said no. That it was handed down from generation to generation from the time of Christ and his apostles.

Now if I was given the information that it could be traced back to a man, then I would of read about that information, that your church wants to cover up.

But lets say that if I was given the true information I would of looked a William Irvine and asked myself a lot more questions.

For instance, he started a christian belief about the workers going two by two and the home as being ordained.

From reading some of Cheries information above There seems to be quite a bit of evolutioon that has taken shape over the course of time and when it first began it was not the way We see it today.

I do not think I would of professed if I was given the true information.

You say this isn't William Irvines Gospel, but William Irvine started these teachings and it is very dishonest and decieving to leave that out of your history, and keep it from people who had asked.

So in my mind, If I I am told about william Irving, to begin with then I say " OK what is he teaching thats different than where i am going to church,

and what is he teaching thats different from what other people believe that i learned about.

By excluding the truth that william Irvine was the founder, and the teacher of this doctrine you preach about as far as the ministry, the church in the home, you don't believe in the trinity which i did at the time.

I mean you can say it is the gospel of jesus but you have to say that william Irvine along with others started this.

your gospel came from the teachings of man whether you are honest about it or not. It was not passed down through out history.

If you don't understand the importance of answering peoples quetions truthfuly, inorder to spread the Gospel which william Irvine started to teach, so we can determine whether or not this man was for real spiritualy.

A lot of other people believe a lot of the same things that you believe in, but you seperate yourselves because of something that started back in 1987, not when Jesus was with his apostles.

I hope you can understand the ( I dont know how to put it into words), I'll just use another illistration then I'll be done

Take the MOrmon Church for example...They are having alot of people leaving there faith right now, because they have found evidence about some dna that proves they were defrauded by their leader that he was a con man. I havent read about it enough to expound upon it but i think I will some more. Well even though people are leaving there

there are still those just like you people who don't think that maters, their born again experience, their revaslation to their hearts is the true gospel to them also. They are going to die in that faith because they believe it so much

Ok I am done. Good luck with what you believe but in my perception you are suporting a lie, and that lie has hurt a lot of people. And from what I understand people are still lieing about it.....And I challenge Lacontessa and you also guess into talking openly about this type of lie that was told to me. I honestly do not believe the two people who i professed under knew they were lieing. They really did believe this was passed down from genereation to generation. And i did like the people that i professed under also just for the record. Pardon my grammer and spelling.

[nathan7]

Son said:

My mother says that we do not need to bother our selves with questions regarding the likes of Irvine or Cooney. What is important, she says, is that what we see in the modern 2x2 church, is just what one sees...that Christ established during His time....and instructed Paul & the others, to carry forth. And so it has been carried forth...unto this very day...my mother says.

She also adds, that there is a "Swiss connection", as well as a "Armenian connection", having something-or-other to do with the apostolic succession of 2x2-ism that has been handed down to us...to this very day.

So....apparently, 2x2ism DID EXIST prior to Wm. Irvine.

I agree with your mother.

Indeed..... 2x2ism Itinerant ministry HAVE EXISTED from the time of Jesus Christ, the 12 apostles, the 70 apostles and many apostles and their followers through down the ages.... 1800's.... 1900's .... 2000's TILL the DAY He comes again.

Jesus said to Peter, "... Upon this Rock! I will built MY CHURCH! and the gates of HELL shall 'NOT" prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)

[jungo]

There is no personel wittnes in thw two by twos........People have to hear the gospel through the workers....So many other people were preaching the gospel in the books of acts.....not just the apostles. Steven was stoned to death, Philip helped the unick....when the apostles heard of diferent areas that people were recieving the word of god they went to help them.....all in acts...so different then what we see in the two by twos...

The swiss connection, there is no swiss connection....There were no workers there...

Irvine williams sister saw some people in a home that she worked in they told her about the true way of God...She told William, he told others....They said people cant understand the true Gospel unless they here it through a worker....Selah

[to Jungo]

RE: Irvine Williams sister saw some people in a home that she worked in they told her about the true way of God...She told William, he told others.

This is not a fact--it's just ONE of the many stories passed along by friends and workers who want to hold onto the apostolic succession concept of the 2x2 method. There is nothing to back it up. Which sister? Who were these people? Why weren't they included in the group of early followers of Wm Irvine? Why doesn't anyone know their name? Did Wm Irvine go and connect with the Swiss/Armenian people? There are a LOT of HUGE loopholes to this tale. You're not the first to spout it. One worker (Geo. Gittins) is credited today with having heard same from Rob Darling, "who was in the work in the early days." Its a most vague tale--and not something a critical thinker would put any stock in.

Interestingly, Wm Irvine's first companion (John Long) when he got his ministry started didn't ever tell about the sister story in his very detailed journal of their experiences and start up. His Journal is reprinted on TTT.

[Cherie]

GEORGE GITTINS' ACCOUNT OF THE EARLY DAYS

Following are some notes taken at a gathering of some friends (name of notetaker is unknown), which means this is a second-hand story. The speaker was George Gittins, a brother worker now laboring in Canada, who related to his audience events he recalled which Robert Darling had narrated to him. Since Rob Darling is shown on the 1905 Workers' List as entering the work in 1905, (seven years after the group started), he was not one of Irvine's "early" or original followers.

"What George Gittins told us about the early days of the Truth"

"William Irvine's sister went from Scotland to Ireland to work in someone's home. When Sunday came, she noticed there were chairs set around the living room, and she asked about it. The people of the home said they had a worship service in their home each Sunday morning, and a few others came also. She asked how they got started doing this, and she was told that their ancestors heard homeless preachers in Switzerland. (Another Gittins' Account said they heard the preachers somewhere in the Alps and they embraced the faith and a church meeting was started in their home by these homeless preachers. When the folks had to leave that area due to persecution, they came to Ireland and continued the service in their home.")

"There were no workers in Ireland or Scotland at this time. Later his sister returned to Scotland and told her brother, William Irvine, who was also a dissatisfied Plymouth Brethren (Note: There is no record of Irvine ever being a Plymouth Brethren. Another Gittins' Account said Irvine was dissatisfied with the Faith Mission). His sister had embraced the faith while in Ireland, and when she told William about it, he also embraced it and told his friends who did likewise. (Another Account by Gittins said: "William was called by the Spirit of God inside him to go into the Harvest Field, as Jesus taught his disciples, leaving all and going by faith. Some heard William preach and were converted to go likewise.")

"William's sister had been told about the lifestyle of some who had been homeless preachers in Switzerland. When William heard of this, he recognized it as scriptural, and he and others went forth in like manner. (Another Gittins Account said: "He came to visit these folks that his sister had met and on hearing their testimony recognized it was scriptural and was also convicted it was God's true way.") His sister didn't go into the work, but she remained true to the Lord. (Another Account by Gittins said that she: "embraced this Faith, as she was convicted it was the true way of God.") Later, there was contact with the family in Ireland who had introduced this faith toWilliam's sister.

"This is what Robert Darling told George Gittins. Garrett Hughes told George that his parents (G. Hughes parents were Fred and Mary Ann Gill Hughes) who professed through William Irvine had mentioned something about Switzerland in connection with the 'Early Days' in Scotland. Garrett said that Robert Darling had been there in the 'Early Days,' and so whatever he said was true.

"George read in some history books of an 'itinerant preacher group' that fled to Armenia during the persecution in Europe and later to Switzerland (the Alps)". (Another Gittins' Account said "Later I [George] talked to Mr. Holland* who was almost 100 yrs old, and his parents had told him much the same as Robert had told me.") (END of GITTINS ACCOUNT)

*NOTE: "Mr. Holland" could be Dora Holland's brother, Harry Holland, who was also a worker; or possibly, it was another brother of Dora.
* * * * * *
This account is lacking many vital pieces of information. Which sister of Wm Irvine? Who's home? Where was this home? When was contact made later with the Irish family who introduced this faith to William's sister? What was the outcome? Did the ministers and the meeting elders merge together? What was the name of some of the homeless preachers in Switzerland? What were the names of Wm's friends who embraced the faith after he told them about it? Who were the friends of Wm Irvine who went out likewise? When did all this take place?

What history books did George read in? What "persecution in Europe" was he referring to? What's the connection of European persecutions in a history book to the beginning of Wm Irvine's ministry? The vague reference to the presence of groups having no name and to some itinerant ministers is of no documentary value. It is speculation. We are not told from what country these people fled; or when or what type of persecution instigated their flight. The Spanish Inquisition was chiefly concerned with the expulsion of Jews and Moslems and lasted for around 350 years. What group fled from Spain to Armenia, or from Armenia to Switzerland? From the late Dark Ages through to modern times, Armenia has been far removed both politically (being surrounded and dominated by Islamic territories) and geographically from Western Europe. It is hard to imagine any such flow to and from this distant land during this time. Travel and communication to Armenia through hostile territories existing during this period seems far fetched at best.

Who were the first workers who pioneered the gospel to Switzerland and when was that? Who were the first people in Switzerland to profess and when was that? To date, TTT does not have a typed account or letter telling about the FIRST ones to labor and those who were first to profess in Switzerland or Italy. We have a report from a relative that Otto Schmidt went to preach in Switzerland in 1913, and from there went to Germany. The Impartial Reporter stated in their July 9, 1914, issue regarding the Crocknacrieve convention, that "Two preachers, one of whom is Miss Barton, Pettigo, have lately returned from North Italy and Switzerland." Did any of these workers connect with the friends or workers who were preaching in Switzerland? Or had they died out?

When George Gittins was asked these questions by Dale Knott, in a letter dated May 17, 1992, enclosing a copy of the above Gittins account, G.G. replied:

"Dale...Yours was most interesting and was good to hear. Would be nice to meet you sometime and talk over some of the things you asked in your letter. Robt. Darling gave me a firsthand account and knew personally the folks he talked about. Ones whom Wm. Irvine met first. In talking to others since, I heard of workers talking to some workers from Canada here that witnessed the baptism of Wm. in truth. Which was most interesting. If I were talking to you could go into more detail of information I have. We are thankful that, being as we have the "fruit," we don't need to trace the seed of the fruit back to Adam and original creation. Jesus said, "By their fruits you shall know them." Wonderful to know like Peter said that we have not followed cunningly devised fables. But have tasted for ourselves of His majesty.
With greetings sincere in Christ,
Signed: Geo. Gittins"

DORA HOLLAND is generally credited with being the very FIRST person to profess in Ireland--NOT the sister of Wm. Irvine! Some reports say that she professed in 1896, when she was 20 years old through Wm. Irvine (who was preaching with the Faith Mission at that time.) Some have attempted to prove that the Go-Preacher fellowship began before 1897, and she is the "proof" they use, as she reportedly professed in 1896. However, some other sources state that she also professed in 1895 and 1897. The Author believes the date was actually in 1897, as both the Faith Mission and John Long's Journal report that Wm Irvine had a mission in Kilrush in February, 1897, where Dora Holland was working. Click Here for more information about Dora. From an extract of a letter written in 1966 by her brother, Harry Holland:

"So many of our fellow workers have gone, yet I am still living. I will be 89 years old on February 6th. My sister, Dora, was 90 on January 1st. She was the FIRST PERSON TO PROFESS in Ireland, but that was before the Gills and the Carrolls decided and before George Walker decided. That was some years before I left Ireland, and I left in 1899." [Harry Holland, 1966]

Harry Holland may be from the same Holland family that George Gittins refers to above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WILLIAM IRVINE HEARD FROM HIS SISTER...

Some friends maintain their belief in apostolic succession by believing that "William Irvine learned about God's true way through his sister who was working for a professing family in Ireland, who had ancestors in Switzerland who worshipped likewise."

In about 1967 or 1968, Robert Darling spoke at Silverdale, British Columbia Canada Convention. His text was Daniel 2: 34, 35 & 45, particularly about the stone "cut out of the mountain without hands," which "filled the whole earth." He then said that the stone was William Irvine's sister. She became very ill and died. According to Robert, she supposedly had a dream which she related to William, which deeply stirred him and in some manner supposedly influenced him religiously from then on. Robert Darling's main point was that we should be crediting Wm's sister God took in death before William Irvine even began preaching--instead of crediting William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. Wm's sister was, therefore, "the stone made without hands."

However, Wm Irvine didn't see it this way at all, for he wrote the following about this same verse: "The Stone cut out of the Mountain without hands is to unite the great image of R.P.&E. [Religious, Political and Educational] as in Dan. 2 and grow and become a mountain and fill the whole Earth. David was the least in his father's family but became the greatest, and by whom so many precious promises are given to David and his seed today. Inasmuch as ye did or did it not unto one who is least in the Kingdom, he did or did it not unto Him." (Letter to Lyda & Wm. Baker, 6/19/37) Wm. Irvine took for himself the title of "The Least" from this verse. He was referring to himself when he wrote about "the Stone cut out of the Mountain," and "The Least."

No evidence has turned up so far that indicates that Wm Irvine had ANY relatives to follow his teachings. "Irvine lived a wild life, and suddenly saw the error of his ways...No one else in the family followed in the religion." She also said Irvine's sister was a Presbyterian, and not one of Irvine's followers. Willie Clelland, reportedly a cousin of Wm Irvine's, was a worker for while, but was cruelly ex-communicated. On August 11, 1981, Anna Clark of Kilsyth, Scotland, William Irvine's niece, stated in a taped interview to M. A. Schoeff that no one in the family followed Wm Irvine's teachings.

Donald Fisher, a California brother worker, wrote Fred Miller a letter sometime before 1982: "In 1967, I talked with Robert Darlene (Darling) at the Olympia conv. grounds. At that time he told me that of the first 116 Workers who went forth, only eight were yet alive, he being one and he told me the names of the other seven. Our conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told and interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine."

Prof. Oliver Wm. Rolfe who was well acquainted with Robert Darling wrote: "I have previously heard the account...attributed to Robert Darling about the beginnings of the church. I have no idea whether or not it is true, but I do know what Robert told me personally. I met Robert in 1958 at the Albuquerque convention; I then traveled with him to the three Mexican conventions. That is, he asked me to drive him in my car. I saw him every day for a period of weeks; he rode with me back to the Midwest where I was living at the time. We became good friends and corresponded regularly until his death in 1970. In 1967, he came to California, where I was then living, and I met him at the Gilroy conventions. He stayed with me between the two conventions, and we had great fun sight-seeing in the Bay Area. On this latter occasion I asked him about the beginnings of the church; he told me that it was started in Ireland by one man (whom he did not name, but I assumed to be William Irvine) after his sister had frozen to death because their parents had shut her out of the house. There was no mention at all of Switzerland. In fact, in all my discussions with him there was never the slightest implication that the church dated historically from an earlier time. He seemed to be somewhat distressed that so many people seemed to believe this. (by Oliver William Rolfe, History Professor at University of Montana)

NOTE: Margaret Irvine probably died of a chronic lung infection, most likely tuberculosis. The Cause of Death given for Margaret Irvine in the public records was: "Phthisis, 3 months, cert. by John Lind Surgeon, Kilsyth." Another sister of Wm Irvine, Elizabeth Irvine, died June 15, 1887, and her Cause of Death was listed as Periostitis, which is an inflammation of the lining of the bone. A 1913 Webster's dictionary defines“phthisis" as "A wasting or consumption of the tissues. The term was formerly applied to many wasting diseases, but is now usually restricted to pulmonary phthisis, or consumption. See Consumption." The term "consumption" was used in the past to refer to pulmonary tuberculosis. From the Archaic Medical Terms - a resource for geneologists and historians: “Phthisis [ty'sis] literally means a wasting disease, but almost invariably will mean pulmonary tuberculosis; Any debilitating lung or throat affections; a severe cough; asthma Phthisis Pulmonalis."

Click here for the etymology the word. "PHTHISIS or PHTHYSIS - Waste away, as in pine away; wasting disease primarily TUBERCULOSIS or TBC, before the exact cause of TBC was known; one of the key signs was body 'wasting.'”

Therefore, "phthisis" was probably used back then to describe a chronic lung disease, usually infectious and usually tuberculosis. Remember, they didn't have the technology or microbiological knowledge of infectious diseases 100 years ago. So, it seems that Margaret Irvine probably died of a chronic lung infection, most likely tuberculosis.

[jungo]

I also believe there is no swiss connection, I was showing my point of view in a sarcastic way. ...The two by twos believe you cant understand the gospel until you hear it from the workers.

Point is how did william irvines sister understand the truth, and how did william Irvine understand the truth, when there were no workers to listen to.

And it's like they are saying to themselves lets be preachers cause no one can underst this gospel if they dont hear a preacher. And at one time they believed everyone should be preachers.

I used the word selah because it means to think about whats just been said.

See if we use the word selah after every thought process Dennis wont get mixed up....we could change it selah instead of skipping spaces. Just joking Dennis.

[bs nathan]

nathan7 said:

Indeed..... 2x2ism Itinerant ministry DID EXIST from the time of Jesus Christ, the 12 apostles, the 70 apostles and many apostles and their followers through down the ages.... 1800's.... 1900's and 2000's.

Sadly, the present-day group has no connection with them, whoever they may have been.

[nathan7]

bs said:

nathan7 said:

Indeed..... 2x2ism Itinerant ministry DID EXIST from the time of Jesus Christ, the 12 apostles, the 70 apostles and many apostles and their followers through down the ages.... 1800's.... 1900's and 2000's.

Sadly, the present-day group has no connection with them, whoever they may have been.

Positively......We will know for sure "AFTER" we die and in the Day of Judgement.

[not a clue]

nathan7 said:

bs said:

Sadly, the present-day group has no connection with them, whoever they may have been.

Positively......We will know for sure "AFTER" we die and in the Day of Judgement.

So what you're saying is that on the Day of Judgment we will find out if we attended the proper church. Who taught you that rubbish?

[pure bs]

Don't listen to anything nathan says. He's about 51 cards shy of a full deck.

[LaContessa]

jungo said:

I understand LaContessa, what you said. I realize they arnt preaching about William irvine. You can believe what ever gospel you want to. But when someone asks if this can be traced back to a man, you guys say no. Thats a lie. So I was just wondering if you were going to correct everyone in your faith so that when an outsider asks the big question? You'll say Irvine Williams right.

I dont think there can be a true revalation with a lie. You have totaly avoided anything I asked you to do. I don't think the reason that you gave is a sound reason to lie about and cover up the history of your church. Don't you want your ministers to be honest?

And my answer to you, Jungo, is from the scripture...the angels, which are greater in power and might bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

My place is to be a reflection of my father in heaven. That is the message that Jesus brought to us.

If you want to get caught up in strife and debate, that is your choice. I have a more profitable place to fulfill and better things to think on than to set others straight.

"Master, we saw one casting out devils in your name, and he followed not us: and we forbad him, because he followed not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."

FYI...I do have honest conversations with our worker's about many subjects and am not afraid to speak whatever "concerns" me. It is not my place to "set" them straight. As far as other's who would ask me about my faith. I would answer them honestly. I'm sorry you are so filled with anger. But there is nothing that can separate me from the love of God. Now I need to go prepare bread that can be blessed and broken with those I will worship with this morning.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Roman 8...it's a lovely chapter to feed on.

[jxr]

Let's all get up and dance to a song
That was a hit before Will Irvine was born.
Though he was born a long, long time ago
Your mother should know (Your mother should...)
Your mother should know (...know.)
Sing it again.

[jungo]

Lacontessa, Well thank you for showing me your reasonong and your care about others, to say I am an angry person is very judgmental, you don't even know who I am, nor have you even met me, your reasoning is void of any truth and anything that makes sense. you are afraid of the workers and you know you dont have the liberty to tell them to be honest, all you care about is yourself. you dont care about me. Your the one who came to these boards I did not ask you to.


How was I making an acusation anyways?

your reflection of your father should be truth and honesty.

we saw one casting out devils and we forbade him not ect. ect... you dont practice what you preach....all other people are condemed because they dont accept your way of thinking and you know that.


If this was passed down from generation to generation I guess so were thre conventions and special meetings, There are no letters one to another.

If I want to be a defender of the gopel i can be.

I guess I wont be getting an e mail from you telling me you are sorry that I have been lied to.

I feel like i have the right to know about the history of my faith. Sorry you are a promoter of not agreeing with that...Hmmmm Guess it's bye...