Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2006 20:04:29 GMT -5
Some think that the 2x2 way was started by W.I. Some think that is not true. Is it provable either way?
I only became aware of the idea that the 2x2 way was started by W.I. on these sites and confirmed the idea verbally with a FEW other in the 2x2 way - those said that they were aware that idea was out there that the 2x2 way was started by a man but it is not true.
I have read some of what is online concerning the beginnings, that says it is true it was started by W.I.
Just wanting thoughts on reliability of sources in proving either way.
My human nature wants indisputable facts - wouldn't that be nice?! I guess it draws away from us relying on our Father for all things.
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Post by Cherie on Mar 28, 2006 20:06:13 GMT -5
What have you read?
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Post by g on Mar 28, 2006 20:11:35 GMT -5
The ttt has all the facts you need. Right there in black and white.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2006 20:14:22 GMT -5
Cherrie,
Some of the links posted on here, I do not know the exact titles of ones I've read and ones I have not. I have not read any of the books I've heard about. The first time I was brave enough to read these sites I was on for about 6 hours reading.
If you know of a site that you feel is vital in understanding this could you please pass on the title so I can be sure I've read that one?
Thank you.
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TULIP
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Die to self will, and rise up in strength and beauty in the arms of Jesus Christ.
Posts: 168
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Post by TULIP on Mar 28, 2006 20:19:46 GMT -5
The first time I read these sites I did so for 11 hours... stayed up all night...
It took me a year to believe that WI founded the fellowship... At first I just could not believe it...
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questioning to tulip
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Post by questioning to tulip on Mar 28, 2006 20:27:12 GMT -5
tulip,
What are your thoughts on the idea that W.I. did in fact exist in the 2x2 way but he was not the founder, just a worker in the lines of the 2x2 way?
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TULIP
Junior Member
Die to self will, and rise up in strength and beauty in the arms of Jesus Christ.
Posts: 168
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Post by TULIP on Mar 28, 2006 20:35:33 GMT -5
Completely impossible…
When you conduct an honest investigation of the evidence you will see there is no possibility of this happening…
If what you say was true, then people could easily name one worker who predates WI… or name one 2x2 hymn… Or have a letter from a worker… Or a photo… or so on and so forth.
Also, everyone involved readily admits he is the founder… there is only one person actively doubting that and his theories have been debunked time and time again.
Bottom line – WI founded the 2x2 fellowship… before him there were no “workers” or “friends” and all professing people can trace their professingness directly back to him.
Here are a few worker quotes to refer to if needed…
MERLIN HOWLETT: In just the past 88 years we have had the privilege of convention. 88 years ago there wasn't one convention on this earth. Now there are 126 conventions. [Milltown WA Conv 8/28/88]
GARRETT HUGHES: Ninety years ago, a letter came from Ireland. We heard about those with no home, no name, etc. Forty people made their choice. Sixteen went out in the work - that was the beginning...There is not a country not open to the gospel now. It is the most marvelous thing ever to happen. [Funeral of Erling Omdal Eagle Bend MN 10/6/87] REF #340 (NOTE: 90 years ago = 1987 - 90 = 1897!)
WILLIAM IRVINE: God made me the first head of the family. He did the calling by me and now these past seven years He is doing the choosing, for many are called, few chosen. [8/17/21] REF #350
WILSON McCLUNG: Our mission was started by William Irvine, a Scotchman, seven or eight years ago. Others followed him. The mission has grown gradually. Fifty men and women are now carrying the word to the unenlightened in eight countries in England, etc. [Impartial Reporter, Enniskillen, N Ireland 6/21/06] REF #154
WALTER POLLOCK: We know that it began with a group of men in the British Isles around the turn of the century. That's as far as we've been able to trace it. [Spokesmen Review Newspaper, Spokane WA, 6/5/83] REF #395
GEORGE WALKER: We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of the last century and the first years of this century a number of people in the British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind...[Letter to U.S. Selective Service, 1942] REF #294
THAROLD SYLVESTER: We don't deny it when asked if the historical account of our founding was true. [Skagit Valley Herald Newspaper, Mt. Vernon, WA 8/18/83] REF #326
People want to deny the truth all day long… but the more you research the more it sticks right out and slaps you in the face….
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Post by Cherie on Mar 28, 2006 20:42:53 GMT -5
I applaud your question and your questioning mind. I would be pleased if you would read my on-line book, The Life and Ministry of Wm Irvine, and let me know your conclusion. It is not designed to persuade, but to present facts and let the reader draw their own conclusion. Some have said that it is the most unbiased book out there. I am not quite finished with it. When I first heard of Wm Irvine (by reading The Secret Sect), I set out to prove or disprove what the SS contained. My book contains my research and findings. The book is located at: home.earthlink.net/~truth333/index-WmIBook.html |
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questioning to tulip again
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Post by questioning to tulip again on Mar 28, 2006 20:54:39 GMT -5
Thank you for your response!
What are your thoughts on the idea that the 2x2 way existed before W.I. but the 'names' were not put on it until after he was in the work? I've heard some in the 2x2 way say that "the truth" has always been and that W.I. just attracted a lot of attention in his day so people started assingning names to the people and groups. That it was also then that "the truth" became larger (groups - even though I understand from them that the 2x2 way is not organized).
I have also verbally heard from a person who is in the 2x2 way that W.I. was just a cog in the wheel and that this is the one and only true way started by Jesus. I'm not even sure how to question that statement - seems too vague to even reply to.
I am a 2x2, not that it matters, just thought maybe someone would care where these questions are coming from.
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questionong to Cheri
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Post by questionong to Cheri on Mar 28, 2006 21:18:50 GMT -5
Cheri,
Misspelled your name earlier, sorry.
Thank you for directing me to your book. It will take me awhile to read it.
Can I ask why you went through what at first glance appears to be a tremendous amount of work? If the answer to this lies within the text then I will come to it and there is no need to reply to this question.
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Post by swiss group on Mar 28, 2006 21:36:59 GMT -5
People, let us not forget that 2x2ism was passed on to Irvine by some shadowy Swiss group, who also met 2x2. This Swiss group apparently had the keys of succession passed on to them from even earlier 2x2 ministers. Although factually historical records may not exist...it is a faith based belief that 2x2ism has indeed survived throughout the centuries from the time of Christ and His followers.
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Post by armenians on Mar 28, 2006 21:40:14 GMT -5
I think there may have been an Armenian link in the 2x2 succession.
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Post by a believer on Mar 28, 2006 22:03:38 GMT -5
People, let us not forget that 2x2ism was passed on to Irvine by some shadowy Swiss group, who also met 2x2. This Swiss group apparently had the keys of succession passed on to them from even earlier 2x2 ministers. Although factually historical records may not exist...it is a faith based belief that 2x2ism has indeed survived throughout the centuries from the time of Christ and His followers. 2x2 ism was not pasedon by some Swiss group. WI was in teh Faith Mission, adn broke from that when he had enough converts to suppot him. All the facts are there adn no facts are there that there was some Swiss group he had any thing to do with. He copied convetions from Keswick, words and actions from the Faith Mission etc. |
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Post by Cherie on Mar 28, 2006 22:25:40 GMT -5
People often ask me "What is your motive?" Why I went to all the work is told in the TTT Mission Statement at: home.earthlink.net/~truth/sec1-1AboutTTT.htmlThis research was done over a 15 year period, including a trip to Scotland, England and Ireland in 2004. My work includes information from many, many contributors. In case you haven't read my life story, it's located at (along with my mother and brother’s stories): home.earthlink.net/%7Etruth444/BRG11-4Cherie.html I was raised on the convention grounds in Jackson, Mississippi USA. |
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Post by swiss connection on Mar 28, 2006 22:33:04 GMT -5
Well, Irvine's...or Cooney's sister (or somebody) had heard of this Swiss group. Sorry for my lack of scholastic precision. It's all in the literature though...this Swiss Connection.
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Post by Cherie on Mar 28, 2006 22:33:34 GMT -5
There are many many stories "out there" and I collected them for awhile to explain Wm Irvine and his 2x2 ministry and fellowship. Here are some of the things you will hear if you ask workers/friends. Remember, Jesus' Way of salvation through his life and death and resurrection DOES go back to the 1st century; however, the method Wm Irvine started, goes back to the beginning of the 20th century, as verified by many newspaper accounts and other primary documentation. We are talking about two different "ways" here. Be careful you don't aren't taken in by fallacious reasoning using equivocation with the words "way" and "truth". home.earthlink.net/%7Etruth/sec2-5HowStart.html |
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documentation please
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Post by documentation please on Mar 28, 2006 22:42:57 GMT -5
This "Swiss Connection" is usually trotted out as a desperate last resort, at linking the 2x2 way, to a suppossed pre-Irvine era, that (hopefully) "proves" an apostolic 2x2 ministry that reaches back through the ages.
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Post by newpapers on Mar 28, 2006 22:55:07 GMT -5
for anyone doubting the truth in the newpapers, is there any hope anymore, nothing is printed in the newpapers until we know it true
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Post by newspapers on Mar 29, 2006 0:53:06 GMT -5
Lloyd, newspaper reports are only as good as the reporters...or as good as the reporter's sources, or the newspapers orientation.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Mar 29, 2006 19:01:01 GMT -5
Well, Irvine's...or Cooney's sister (or somebody) had heard of this Swiss group. Sorry for my lack of scholastic precision. It's all in the literature though...this Swiss Connection. What literature? |
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Post by lltfe on Mar 29, 2006 19:13:52 GMT -5
Hearing of a "Swiss group" or a 2X2 system should never be equated with hearing the Gospel for salvation.
Since no one knows what exactly the "Swiss" preached then how does anyone know what their "Gospel" was.
Erroneous Gospel's are plentiful but the true Gospel is the one we need to believe to be saved.
I don't believe WI or his followers ever heard or believed the true Gospel. The evidence for that is in all the convention and special meeting notes I still have covering the last 60 years.
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liz
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Post by liz on Mar 29, 2006 20:23:25 GMT -5
My professing relative claims Wm Irvine was professing yet deviated from 'God's Truth' and started his own way.
She claims she is not part of Wm Irvine's way but a part of 'God's true church established by Jesus'.
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Post by she on Mar 29, 2006 22:05:03 GMT -5
My professing relative claims Wm Irvine was professing yet deviated from 'God's Truth' and started his own way. She claims she is not part of Wm Irvine's way but a part of 'God's true church established by Jesus'. she is absolutely right  would do you well to take notice of she says |
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Post by as i c it on Mar 30, 2006 2:17:35 GMT -5
she,
It isn't going to matter which "group" we're in, name-wise...if you know what I mean...
But what bothers me is this:
In the world in which I "live"--there is a now a "credibility" gap.
Our ministry was not honest with us. And they have not repaired the damage by GETTING honest with us. (Instead--we're supposed to surpress/hide/bury/ignore/deny--and do ANYTHING--BUT--"demand" they supply us with an answer and an apology.) And, I'm sorry...but that doesn't make for a good (or an honest) relationship--whether in "the world" or in the church.
Too many (innocent) individuals have been damaged: and have had their reputations "smeared"--when all they did was learn the truth: tell the truth: or want "the truth"
In my "world": if you do wrong--you admit it--you apologize--and deal with it. (To allow it to continue...and to never correct the damage that you've done to others--when it's within your power to do so...cannot be right--especially when you're in an area of trust: and you're preaching about "being honest")
Word games: head games: evasions and cover-ups--do not fit into the definition of "truth".
And the overseers need to step up to the plate and be accountable because they were (and are) the ones who set the route to be followed in this matter. (And until they do that....I will withhold my "trust" and judge what is "right" and what is "wrong" --for myself) And in accordance only with what I find in the scriptures.
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Post by as i c it on Mar 30, 2006 16:24:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry I sound so "hard" in the above post. This subject upsets me. I'm not hard against the workers on an individual basis. (I value and appreciate many and most of them for who they are.) And I greatly esteem them for their love.
"The lie": or "the omission" of telling us all "the real truth"--just...wasn't honest...and ...we who were "the innocents" (workers and friends alike) became "victims" of it...with this subject still affecting me negatively.
I try to keep most of my postings from being negative and harsh. I failed here. And I apologize.
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Post by congratulations on Apr 20, 2006 2:12:50 GMT -5
"as i c it", you have not been in the least bit negative & harsh. In fact your posts (unless I missed something) were just what TMB is looking for: articulate & maturely written posts, in which one pours out there feelings a civil, and non-bitter way. You are one of those few TMBrs that I truly respect. The X's that I can think of (such as yourself) who can express yourself without rancor or without words dripping with invective, sarcasm, and the "bitterness" that is all too typical here...is refreshing. Carry on.
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Post by the foundation on Apr 20, 2006 3:39:40 GMT -5
I believe in living the truth, and I see the truth as the same as what was lived and practiced in the bible. That is my 'foundation' .....just for your info...  If you think that there is no foundation for my belief other than that, that is NOT my problem. Do you think that scientific formulas do not exist until someone re'discovers' them?? I think SO. I suppose you believe that COLUMBUS discovered the native American Indians, too. Yep, the Indians must have not been here until Columbus discovered them......[were they hiding??] Hey, discoveries are only opening doors to the truth, which has been around since the foundation of the earth!!  |
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strange rationalizations
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Post by strange rationalizations on Apr 20, 2006 6:34:26 GMT -5
I'm not sure what scientific formulas and Columbus have to do with the history of 2x2ism. Well, I take that back...they have nothing to do with it.
By reading your words, it would appear that the strength of your faith is based on which church you attend. I do find that odd.
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