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Post by nathan7 on Mar 24, 2006 0:59:53 GMT -5
Paul Abenroth wrote: "On two major points Nathan is at odd with the overseers:"
My question for you is #2
2) The overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah.
~~~ Paul, can you tell me the names of the overseers that you know, teach that the Father is Jehovah/Yahweh. Thanks.
Do you know anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus called the Father as Yahweh/Jehovah.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Mar 24, 2006 8:12:41 GMT -5
What overseers teach that Jesus is Jehovah?
Is Jesus called Jehovah in the New Testament?
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 24, 2006 10:58:58 GMT -5
What overseers teach that Jesus is Jehovah? Is Jesus called Jehovah in the New Testament? What do you think? Is the word Trinity in the Bible? |
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Post by pure bs on Mar 24, 2006 13:14:57 GMT -5
What overseers teach that Jesus is Jehovah? Is Jesus called Jehovah in the New Testament? What do you think? Is the word Trinity in the Bible? "Convention" isn't in the Bible, either. Whoopee. |
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TULIP
Junior Member
Die to self will, and rise up in strength and beauty in the arms of Jesus Christ.
Posts: 168
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Post by TULIP on Mar 24, 2006 13:17:43 GMT -5
www.carm.org/doctrine/obj_wordtrinity.htmThe word Trinity is not in the Bible
Some critics of the Trinity doctrine claim that since the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, it isn't true. Furthermore, some assert that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have stated the doctrine clearly.
First of all, it is illogical to claim that since the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible that its concept is not taught therein. This kind of objection usually demonstrates a prejudice against the teaching of the Trinity. Instead, the person should look to God's word to see if it is taught or not.
Second, there are many biblical concepts that people believe in that don't have a specific word describing them used in the Bible. For example, the word "bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway to describe the Bible. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. We don't have to see a specific word in the Bible in order for the concept it describes to be true.
Following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned.
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Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
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Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.
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Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).
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Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8).
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Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument. Furthermore, to say that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have clearly taught it in scripture, is also an invalid argument. Something does not have to be clearly formulated in the Bible to be valid. Not all things taught in the Bible are perfectly clear. Take a look at the book of Revelation. It contains many things that are cryptic that must be interpreted after examining all of the Bible. Even then, there are disagreements as to what some things mean. Yet, we know that the truths there are true whether or not we discover them.
Nevertheless, there are scriptures that demonstrate a Trinitarian aspect.
* Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
* 2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
* Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
* Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
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Post by hitnrun on Mar 24, 2006 13:20:54 GMT -5
Paul Abenroth wrote: "On two major points Nathan is at odd with the overseers:" My question for you is #2 2) The overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. ~~~ Paul, can you tell me the names of the overseers that you know, teach that the Father is Jehovah/Yahweh. Thanks. Do you know anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus called the Father as Yahweh/Jehovah. Nathan maybe ya could post these questions on Rob`s board. Too many hit`n`run posters here ya know  |
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Post by spiderman on Mar 24, 2006 14:07:02 GMT -5
Paul Abenroth wrote: "On two major points Nathan is at odd with the overseers:" My question for you is #2 2) The overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. ~~~ Paul, can you tell me the names of the overseers that you know, teach that the Father is Jehovah/Yahweh. Thanks. Do you know anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus called the Father as Yahweh/Jehovah. Who cares? |
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Post by Paul Abenroth on Mar 24, 2006 15:37:53 GMT -5
I stopped in here to check for a couple minutes and see my name at the top of a thread. So I’ll answer your question Nathan. You ask which overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. I must say I was amazed when I first became aware that you do not believe the Father is Jehovah. Here is why. The Jewish/Christian religion has always taught: 1. The doctrine that there is only one God is biblically, culturally, doctrinally, and religiously the foundational cornerstone on which the whole religion depends. 2. That one God has always been understood to be Jehovah (written as LORD in the King James Bible.) 3. There is no God beside Jehovah. 4. Any being that is not Jehovah is not God. 5. Whereas the Jewish religion does not speak of “Father and Son”, the Christian religion sees both Father and Son as Jehovah/God. The above concepts are so basic to Christianity as to hardly need reinforcement by teaching. Just as one does not find the 1+1=2 concept taught beyond the first grade level, so one does not hear preachers of any stripe, including the 2x2, teaching that the Father is Jehovah. Everyone already knows that. It is so basic as to be just understood by all. What is less understood or accepted is the claim that Jesus is a part of that Godhead/Jehovah. Now, it appears you do not believe me when I claim that the overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. In a very technical sense it is true that the Overseers rarely if ever teach that the Father is Jehovah. They do not need to because, as I have stated above, everyone already knows that the Father is Jehovah. So perhaps instead of claiming that is what they TEACH, I should have claimed that is what they BELIEVE. You do not need to take my word for this, Nathan. Since you are more closely connected to the friends and workers than I am, you can very easily verify this for yourself – just ask your elder, or other professing folks, or your own overseer, or other overseers. Finally, I will refer you to the teaching of the worker John Wegter that is found in the 5th paragraph of the following page from your very own website: www.homestead.com/prosites-hobarker/jesusisgod.html“All of these verses and a number of others show us that our Lord Jesus is, along with His Father, the LORD of the Old Testament, the one who is proclaimed to be the only true God. “I call your attention to the phrase, “along with His Father”. It is clear here that John Wegter teaches that the Father is Jehovah. I also call to your attention the absence of any support for your position from other professing people who participate on this website. So, not only do I reaffirm my assertion that you are at odds with the overseers. You are also at odds with the friends and workers in general and with John Wegter in particular. This circumstance can possibly be explained by the fact that you come from a Buddhist heritage and may never have heard a Christian explicitly state that the Father is Jehovah. That would be understandable, and for this reason I should not demean your understanding. My hope is that you will do some enquiring of various Christians in whom you have confidence (obviously not me!!) whether that be friends, workers, neighbors, fellow employees, or pastors and learn for yourself what is the foundational Christian belief on this matter. Best wishes to you. Paul Abenroth |
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 24, 2006 21:26:14 GMT -5
I stopped in here to check for a couple minutes and see my name at the top of a thread. So I’ll answer your question Nathan. You ask which overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. I must say I was amazed when I first became aware that you do not believe the Father is Jehovah. Here is why. The Jewish/Christian religion has always taught: 1. The doctrine that there is only one God is biblically, culturally, doctrinally, and religiously the foundational cornerstone on which the whole religion depends. 2. That one God has always been understood to be Jehovah (written as LORD in the King James Bible.) 3. There is no God beside Jehovah. 4. Any being that is not Jehovah is not God. 5. Whereas the Jewish religion does not speak of “Father and Son”, the Christian religion sees both Father and Son as Jehovah/God. The above concepts are so basic to Christianity as to hardly need reinforcement by teaching. Just as one does not find the 1+1=2 concept taught beyond the first grade level, so one does not hear preachers of any stripe, including the 2x2, teaching that the Father is Jehovah. Everyone already knows that. It is so basic as to be just understood by all. What is less understood or accepted is the claim that Jesus is a part of that Godhead/Jehovah. Now, it appears you do not believe me when I claim that the overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. In a very technical sense it is true that the Overseers rarely if ever teach that the Father is Jehovah. They do not need to because, as I have stated above, everyone already knows that the Father is Jehovah. So perhaps instead of claiming that is what they TEACH, I should have claimed that is what they BELIEVE. You do not need to take my word for this, Nathan. Since you are more closely connected to the friends and workers than I am, you can very easily verify this for yourself – just ask your elder, or other professing folks, or your own overseer, or other overseers. Finally, I will refer you to the teaching of the worker John Wegter that is found in the 5th paragraph of the following page from your very own website: www.homestead.com/prosites-hobarker/jesusisgod.html“All of these verses and a number of others show us that our Lord Jesus is, along with His Father, the LORD of the Old Testament, the one who is proclaimed to be the only true God. “I call your attention to the phrase, “along with His Father”. It is clear here that John Wegter teaches that the Father is Jehovah. I also call to your attention the absence of any support for your position from other professing people who participate on this website. So, not only do I reaffirm my assertion that you are at odds with the overseers. You are also at odds with the friends and workers in general and with John Wegter in particular. This circumstance can possibly be explained by the fact that you come from a Buddhist heritage and may never have heard a Christian explicitly state that the Father is Jehovah. That would be understandable, and for this reason I should not demean your understanding. My hope is that you will do some enquiring of various Christians in whom you have confidence (obviously not me!!) whether that be friends, workers, neighbors, fellow employees, or pastors and learn for yourself what is the foundational Christian belief on this matter. Best wishes to you. Paul Abenroth You did not answer my question. Paul, you did "NOT" name ONE of the overseers when you wrote: "On TWO major points is at ODD with the overseers" #2.. The overseers teach that the Father is Jehovah. Paul, who are these overseers you are talking about? |
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Post by Jehovah on Mar 24, 2006 22:42:31 GMT -5
I have never heard in all my years of being in meetings (35) and in churches, (30 years) Jesus called Jehovah.
The Father or God (The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit) have always been called Jehovah and Jesus the son. As far as workers are concerned, I never heard the word Jehovah mentioned in meetings that I can remember. The name Jehovah - Jehovah God, the Father was some thing that the Jehovah Witnesses taught when I was in meetings. But talking to people in meetings they believe Jehovah was the Father in the Old Testament.
Jehovah is God, the Father or the trinity which includes the Father. Never have I heard Jesus being refered to as Jehovah on His own like Nathan does.
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Post by Paul Abenroth on Mar 24, 2006 23:03:42 GMT -5
Dear Nathan,
You wrote:
Nathan, I am talking about such overseers as Howard Mooney, Tharold Sylvester, Harold Bennett, Mark Huddle, to name the two deceased and the two current overseers of Oregon and Washington.
As I mentioned in my previous post, it is probably not technically true that they teach this actively and voluntarily, so as I stated earlier my use of the word TEACH was probably not a good choice. I should have used the word BELIEVE. If they are questioned I think you will find that they would then teach via their answer that the Father is Jehovah. I have no written documentation to prove this. That is why I suggested that since you are more closely connected with them than I am you should ask your workers, friends, and overseer what they believe on the matter.
Neither you nor I nor many others have probably ever heard the workers teach voluntarily in a meeting that the Father is Jehovah. Therefore, you will not likely find any convention notes, special meeting notes, or other notes which state this. So I want to make very clear here that I am not talking about something that the overseers and other workers actively and voluntarily teach in meetings. I am talking about what their basic belief is and I am saying that if you were to ask any of them what their belief is they will tell you (teach you) that the Father is Jehovah.
Do you believe me? If not just go ask them. It's that simple.
Sincerely,
Paul Abenroth
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 24, 2006 23:23:38 GMT -5
Dear Nathan, You wrote: Nathan, I am talking about such overseers as Howard Mooney, Tharold Sylvester, Harold Bennett, Mark Huddle, to name the two deceased and the two current overseers of Oregon and Washington. As I mentioned in my previous post, it is probably not technically true that they teach this actively and voluntarily, so as I stated earlier my use of the word TEACH was probably not a good choice. I should have used the word BELIEVE. If they are questioned I think you will find that they would then teach via their answer that the Father is Jehovah. I have no written documentation to prove this. That is why I suggested that since you are more closely connected with them than I am you should ask your workers, friends, and overseer what they believe on the matter. Neither you nor I nor many others have probably ever heard the workers teach voluntarily in a meeting that the Father is Jehovah. Therefore, you will not likely find any convention notes, special meeting notes, or other notes which state this. So I want to make very clear here that I am not talking about something that the overseers and other workers actively and voluntarily teach in meetings. I am talking about what their basic belief is and I am saying that if you were to ask any of them what their belief is they will tell you (teach you) that the Father is Jehovah. Do you believe me? If not just go ask them. It's that simple. Sincerely, Paul Abenroth I haven't heard Harold Bennett who was my first and second year (86-88) co-worker in the 2x2s ministry spoke the Father is Jehovah. I have been on Howard Mooney's staff for eight years. I've been with him off and on and I have not heard him spoke the Father is Jehovah either. When I have the opportunity I will ask Harold B. I know Mark H. as a friend so I will ask him when we see each other down the road. |
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Post by To Nate on Mar 25, 2006 2:02:29 GMT -5
Your reading and comprehension skills are severely lacking. Is English your first language and if so, for how long? I'm not trying to be nasty. I'm trying to understand why communication is so hard for you.
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Post by Lloyd again on Mar 25, 2006 9:52:36 GMT -5
What overseers teach that Jesus is Jehovah? Is Jesus called Jehovah in the New Testament? What do you think? Is the word Trinity in the Bible? No Nate i guess the word Trinity isn't in the bible but i sure believe in a truine god!What about you Nate How do you see it...do you believe Jesus is the Almighty |
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Post by To Nate on Mar 25, 2006 9:59:31 GMT -5
Jesus is co-eternal with the father
I had a hard time understanding that Jesus is God
coming out of the 2x2s but has time went on I finally put it all together...God is not limited to our understanding he can dwell on earth in the person of jesus and he can be in heaven all at the same time if he so chooses
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Post by spiderman on Mar 25, 2006 10:36:05 GMT -5
Paul,
Thanks so much for your replies to Nathan7.
YOU HAVE BEEN DEARLY MISSED BY ME AND OTHERS ON THIS BOARD.
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Post by Paul Abenroth on Mar 25, 2006 14:14:12 GMT -5
Dear Nathan,
You wrote:
Neither have I. But I never had a reason to ask. I already knew.
Did you ever ask them what they believe about who Jehovah is? If you had asked them they would have told you the Father is Jehovah.
If I were to ask them they'd probably wonder where I'd been all my life, since I grew up in a Christian culture where it is commonly known that the Father is Jehovah.
If you ask them they may not have the same reaction, since they will know that you grew up iin a different culture.
Actually, you don't even need to wait until you see Mark and Harold. There are local workers, friends, elders, and convention grounds owners such as Dennis and Zoe Ann Rumsey right there in the Portland area who will tell you the same thing as I. You could phone them and ask them.
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Post by Paul Abenroth on Mar 25, 2006 14:16:39 GMT -5
Spiderman:
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.
I'd enjoy participating here more, but must limit my time because of a busy schedule for the next while.
Sincerely,
Paul
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Post by mustang sally on Mar 25, 2006 16:17:21 GMT -5
You people are so brain dead-it is very clear by biblical teaching that the Father,Son and Holy Spirit are 3 separate entities all of the same mind and on the same page.They are all devine.Trinity is false teaching.
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Post by dear saint sally on Mar 25, 2006 16:28:17 GMT -5
The very idea that you have the foggiest clue about this is absolutely amazing. What an ego! You swallow the bible as fact and then have the audacity to spout off some drivel like it's fact. Wake up, the bible was written by fools to control bigger fools. Obviously it's working.
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 25, 2006 18:38:14 GMT -5
What do you think? Is the word Trinity in the Bible? No Nate i guess the word Trinity isn't in the bible but i sure believe in a truine god!What about you Nate How do you see it...do you believe Jesus is the Almighty I believe Jesus is the Almighty God. Jesus Was, is and will always be the Almighty God/Yahweh. Jesus said in (Rev. 1:8) "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come the Almighty! |
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 25, 2006 18:42:36 GMT -5
Dear Nathan, You wrote: Neither have I. But I never had a reason to ask. I already knew. Did you ever ask them what they believe about who Jehovah is? If you had asked them they would have told you the Father is Jehovah. If I were to ask them they'd probably wonder where I'd been all my life, since I grew up in a Christian culture where it is commonly known that the Father is Jehovah. If you ask them they may not have the same reaction, since they will know that you grew up iin a different culture. Actually, you don't even need to wait until you see Mark and Harold. There are local workers, friends, elders, and convention grounds owners such as Dennis and Zoe Ann Rumsey right there in the Portland area who will tell you the same thing as I. You could phone them and ask them. I have heard different workers, and overseers through the years have preached the Father is God. I heard from Leo Stancliff where he taught Yahweh/Jehovah God in the Old Testament is Jesus of the New Testament. |
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Post by Paul Abenroth on Mar 25, 2006 20:22:13 GMT -5
Nathan,
You wrote:
Yes. "God the Father" is foundational to Christianity and to the 2 x 2 beliefs.
Yes, it sounds like Leo and John Wegter are two of a tiny minority of workers who have expressed a belief in Trinitarian doctrine.
Trinitarianism is based on the following line of thinking:
1. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead.
2. The Godhead is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. Therefore, Jehovah is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Now of course many (perhaps most) friends and workers do not profess Trinitarianism. To them only the Father is God. They therefore think of only the Father as Jehovah/God.
For this reason, Leo Stancliff, if he wanted to teach Trinitarianism, may not have emphasized that the Father is Jehovah, because he would know that the friends already believe that. Instead he would have emphasized that Jesus is Jehovah. That does not mean he intended to exclude the Father.
On the other hand, John Wegter was careful to not exclude the Father, and as I mentioned to you previously, in John's statement which you have quoted on your website he was careful to include both Father and Son as Jehovah ("LORD" in upper case letters).
Sincerely,
Paul Abenroth
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 25, 2006 23:29:06 GMT -5
Nathan, You wrote: Yes. "God the Father" is foundational to Christianity and to the 2 x 2 beliefs. Yes, it sounds like Leo and John Wegter are two of a tiny minority of workers who have expressed a belief in Trinitarian doctrine. Trinitarianism is based on the following line of thinking: 1. Jehovah is the name of the Godhead. 2. The Godhead is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 3. Therefore, Jehovah is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Now of course many (perhaps most) friends and workers do not profess Trinitarianism. To them only the Father is God. They therefore think of only the Father as Jehovah/God. For this reason, Leo Stancliff, if he wanted to teach Trinitarianism, may not have emphasized that the Father is Jehovah, because he would know that the friends already believe that. Instead he would have emphasized that Jesus is Jehovah. That does not mean he intended to exclude the Father. On the other hand, John Wegter was careful to not exclude the Father, and as I mentioned to you previously, in John's statement which you have quoted on your website he was careful to include both Father and Son as Jehovah ("LORD" in upper case letters). Sincerely, Paul Abenroth Thanks Mr. leo... sorry for my mixed up. This is a better explanation. The word "God" is plural in original Hebrew "Elohim,"whereas YHWH/Yahweh/Jehovah was was the "PERSONAL" name by which God was known to Israelites in the Old Testament. ~~~ Jesus Christ claimed to be the I AM that I AM in the Old Testament "Yahweh" Almighty God who was known to Israelites in the Old Testament. (John 8:56-59) In the scripture where "Plurality" the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and these three Persons are the Godhead (Elohim). ~~~ Jesus is God Yahweh! The Old Testament's "PERSONAL" name of God "Yahweh" was the Hebrew word for "to be," and is often translated "I AM," Jesus was the Great "I AM that I AM" Almighty God in the Old Testament, Yahweh Himself, the God the Jews assumed they worshiped, come in the flesh to live among them. |
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Post by mrleo on Mar 25, 2006 23:39:52 GMT -5
Nathan, you just said that Jehovah/Yahweh/God (Elohim), etc. = Jesus Christ. You also said the Father = God (Elohim). Is there more than one Elohim? If Jehovah is an equivalent name with Elohim, then why not refer to the Father as Jehovah?
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Post by chips on Mar 25, 2006 23:56:56 GMT -5
Jehovah, as I understand it, was the Tribal god of war, of the Hebrews. He later became to be represented as the God of the universe. The Christian forefathers used this later universal concept of Jehovah...to be representing the universal deity. Jesus, took advantage of this belief to further His (Christ's) agenda.
Jesus spoke in a manner that those of the era,that in which He spoke, could relate to. It is now up to us in the modern age,to come to a higher understanding.
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Post by mrleo unplugged on Mar 26, 2006 0:09:50 GMT -5
Right...so I'm still trying to understand why it matters which name you use. If Jesus and God are both the I AM, cannot either of them be referred to as Jehovah?
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Post by nathan7 on Mar 26, 2006 0:23:56 GMT -5
Right...so I'm still trying to understand why it matters which name you use. If Jesus and God are both the I AM, cannot either of them be referred to as Jehovah? God-- Yahweh/the I AM that I AM is personal name of Jesus in the Old Testament. The Father's name is not Yahweh. Jesus/Yahweh called his Father's name as "God" and not "Yahweh/LORD." Jesus claimed "Yahweh" as his personal name. Rather than worship Him, and the Jews picked up stone intending to kill him for blasphemy. (John 8: 48-57) |
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