Meeting w/Lyle Schober re Pedophile Issue

[monica]

I agree with you! I think it could be easy for people to use this as an additional "excuse" to point fingers at truth or to lose their faith. Remember we are to have faith in God, not in the way or the workers.

I have been nervous to ask my parents if they have heard anything becuase they too are elders. But I know that if the workers informed them that my mother would quietly tell me. I don't think what has happened has surprised many people who know Tim and have a good sense of people. This revelation just makes everything in our sub conscious(sp?) click in place.

Does anyone know Tim's testimony or backround?

[Freedom]

I am sure all workers at some point in their lives are "horney". How is this situation resolved? Is this what preps is all about and convention is just a cover?

It's becoming clear that the 2x2 ministry has it's dirty shorts problems.[/quote]

I am new to this board, but want to give my opinion here, from someone who has experienced the "work". I believe that if the workers were simply ALLOWED to be married, it would solve a lot of problems. When you are not even allowed to be alone with the opposite sex, it creates a seedbed for homosexuality and pedophility(??) Maybe some would be homosexuals (which is not wrong, legally, but is wrong according to what they are teaching), or pedophiles anyway, but maybe not. The sex drive is very strong, especially if one is not a virgin upon entering, and if there is an attraction, it becomes very hard to resist. Tim is a handsome, and highly sexed guy, and I could very well see young girls being attracted to him, and him having a difficulty resisting. That would be the easiest avenue. Most people have ultimate trust in the workers, and he would be able to be alone with young girls under the ruse of spirituality. I was certainly attracted to the young brother workers when I was a teenager (but they were all good).

I find the whole set-up of the 2x2 ministry quite nauseating. One reason I left was because of "by their fuits ye shall know me" and I could see that this ministry was NOT breeding good, but a lot of hypocrisy, and worse etc. etc.

So I find quite disgusting what Tim has been charged with, but it hurts me to see a fine young man fall in the pit of corruption, when he originally went into the work to do good.

[thinking]

What did Jesus say to the "accusers" who brought the woman (taken in adultery) before Jesus?

He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone....

I am not thinking that this person did a good thing, nor am I condoning such behaviour, but how would you like to have your name blasted on the internet if it were you in this situation?
IT IS AN ACT OF HUMAN WEAKNESS....the workings of the flesh.....I am sure that none of you are guilty of ANY WEAKNESSES!seeing you are all such a PERFECT BUNCH of law-abiding citizens!...perfect before men and God???

Matt 6 14 says. ...For if you forgive men their trespasses,Your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.
So, this is something to think about.

[Nancy]

I am sure all workers at some point in their lives are "horney". How is this situation resolved? Is this what preps is all about and convention is just a cover?

I think you mean horny, not horney. Anyway, I don't think that preps is all about being horny. For most 2x2's, it's about preparing for 4 days of worship.

It's becoming clear that the 2x2 ministry has it's dirty shorts problems.

Name one large organization (religous or otherwise) that does not have it's problems. You can't. They all do. The issue is whether or not the right checks and balances are in place to minimize those problems.

I am new to this board, but want to give my opinion here, from someone who has experienced the "work". I believe that if the workers were simply ALLOWED to be married, it would solve a lot of problems. When you are not even allowed to be alone with the opposite sex, it creates a seedbed for homosexuality and pedophility(??)

Do you have any facts to back that up or are you just rambling? Many pedophiles are married. I think you are just spouting nonsense here.

I find the whole set-up of the 2x2 ministry quite nauseating. One reason I left was because of "by their fuits ye shall know me" and I could see that this ministry was NOT breeding good, but a lot of hypocrisy, and worse etc. etc.


I don't think you'll ever find a religious group whose members all fit the perfect mold. I think we can all find "hypocrisy" in any group or member. Probably even in the mirror. We are all sinners no?

So I find quite disgusting what Tim has been charged with, but it hurts me to see a fine young man fall in the pit of corruption, when he originally went into the work to do good.

Sounds like you are blaming the system for Tim's behavior. I don't think the 2x2 system condones child molestation. The blame has to go to the individual who committed the act. The system needs to do a better job of preventing individuals like Tim from entering the work. They also need to make sure that individuals like Tim, once discovered, need to be forever banned from representing the group in any way, anywhere on the earth.

[to thinking]

thinking said:

What did Jesus say to the "accusers" who brought the woman (taken in adultery) before Jesus?

He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone....

I am not thinking that this person did a good thing, nor am I condoning such behaviour, but how would you like to have your name blasted on the internet if it were you in this situation?
IT IS AN ACT OF HUMAN WEAKNESS....the workings of the flesh.....I am sure that none of you are guilty of ANY WEAKNESSES!seeing you are all such a PERFECT BUNCH of law-abiding citizens!...perfect before men and God???

Matt 6 14 says. ...For if you forgive men their trespasses,Your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.
So, this is something to think about.

Thinking, are you out of your mind or something?

If not, then you very well understand that the posters for this very delicate subject have been very careful not to be judgemental, but it is very difficult when it comes to children as the victims.


How about focusing on the little victims? Start praying your heart out for all of those little ones who have been victimized, and need God more than ever for healing.


And, no, this is not a human weakness, it is a perversion whether you like to admit it as such or not.

[wa1nate]

What did Jesus say to the "accusers" who brought the woman (taken in adultery) before Jesus?

Well now that's a totally different situation. Wouldn't adultery be between two consenting adults? We're talking about children here who were preyed upon. Not even close to the same thing.

He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone....

I don't see people casting stones. I see people concerned about kids.... concerned that this happens to often and isn't dealt with as it should be. Not enough done to try to prevent it either.

I am not thinking that this person did a good thing, nor am I condoning such behaviour, but how would you like to have your name blasted on the internet if it were you in this situation?

He should have thought of that before he preyed on innocent children. You have sympathy for him? What about the victims?

IT IS AN ACT OF HUMAN WEAKNESS....the workings of the flesh.....I am sure that none of you are guilty of ANY WEAKNESSES!seeing you are all such a PERFECT BUNCH of law-abiding citizens!...perfect before men and God???

Far from perfect. People here are acting out of concern for children and preventing it from happening again (and again and again and again).

Matt 6 14 says. ...For if you forgive men their trespasses,Your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. So, this is something to think about.

First of all, I'm not sure that verse was referring to child abuse. But even if it was, there is nothing that says people can't forgive AND seek justice and try to prevent it from happening again.

[ah so]

thinking said:

What did Jesus say to the "accusers" who brought the woman (taken in adultery) before Jesus?

He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone....

I am not thinking that this person did a good thing, nor am I condoning such behaviour, but how would you like to have your name blasted on the internet if it were you in this situation?
IT IS AN ACT OF HUMAN WEAKNESS....the workings of the flesh.....I am sure that none of you are guilty of ANY WEAKNESSES!seeing you are all such a PERFECT BUNCH of law-abiding citizens!...perfect before men and God???

Matt 6 14 says. ...For if you forgive men their trespasses,Your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you do not forgive men their trespasses,neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.
So, this is something to think about.

If you seriously believe that raping children is merely "an act of human weakness" then you are as low as the creep who committed these crimes.

[To Whom]

to said:

How about focusing on the little victims? Start praying your heart out for all of those little ones who have been victimized, and need God more than ever for healing.

Yeah - praying will solve it. To whom will you pray? The all knowing and all powerful God who knew what was going on, could have stopped it, but chose to sit and watch it unfold?

They need God??? For what? He hasn't been there for them to date.

This isn't a religious issue. It isn't a 2x2 issue. This is a very human issue.

[raping]

ah said:

If you seriously believe that raping children is merely "an act of human weakness" then you are as low as the creep who committed these crimes.

Raping children? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

[well]

To said:

to said:

How about focusing on the little victims? Start praying your heart out for all of those little ones who have been victimized, and need God more than ever for healing.

Yeah - praying will solve it. To whom will you pray? The all knowing and all powerful God who knew what was going on, could have stopped it, but chose to sit and watch it unfold?

They need God??? For what? He hasn't been there for them to date.

This isn't a religious issue. It isn't a 2x2 issue. This is a very human issue.

Well, what will you do?

Juli, John and Scott have been the only ones who have done something tangible, human or real about the whole situation.

[deal with it]

raping said:

Raping children? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

So you condone child raping? Wow.

[Condoning]

deal said:

raping said:

Raping children? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

So you condone child raping? Wow.

There has been no mention of rape.
Just for the record, I don't condone disembowelment, castration, or beheading either. Just in case you intend to add that to your list of offenses.

[no name]

deal said:

raping said:

Raping children? How did you arrive at this conclusion?

So you condone child raping? Wow.

I see no one here condoning child raping. In this case, there has not been a charge of rape (as per the official complaint) - so your accusation (thinly disguised as a question) is erroneous. That is not to say, however, that the offender hasn't committed a heinous crime.

[since]

since the official complain is public information, it should be posted.

[juliette]

I haven't posted the complaint because many people in Minnesota know exactly who the victims are. The complaint does not contain their names, but it does contain details that I would not want shared with the world at large if it were my daughter. I have not posted this due to respect to the family, I consider much of the information gratuitous in this forum.

If someone cares enough about this issue, they can get a copy of the complaint on their own. I posted the phone number to call on a previous thread, and the cost is 5 dollars plus a return postage envelope.

[ithascome]

since the official complain is public information, it should be posted.

NOT!!! You need to think about the children that were abused. To post this complaint would abuse them over and over again.

[The alternative]

juliette said:

I haven't posted the complaint because many people in Minnesota know exactly who the victims are. The complaint does not contain their names, but it does contain details that I would not want shared with the world at large if it were my daughter. I have not posted this due to respect to the family, I consider much of the information gratuitous in this forum.

If someone cares enough about this issue, they can get a copy of the complaint on their own. I posted the phone number to call on a previous thread, and the cost is 5 dollars plus a return postage envelope.

The information is out.
By not posting the truth here you are leaving the story out to speculation. Someone has already said there was rape. Exactly how would the truth hurt? Isn't this what you are after? Hiding the truth to protect someone, on either side, seems to fly in the face of what you have been espousing.

[juliette]

If you want it, you can get it. I'm doing what I think is right... you can do the same.

[Rethink this]

ithascome said:

since the official complain is public information, it should be posted.

NOT!!! You need to think about the children that were abused. To post this complaint would abuse them over and over again.

Is the misinformation being posted here any better?

As Launcelot said "...at the length truth will out."

[yes you are]

juliette said:

If you want it, you can get it. I'm doing what I think is right... you can do the same.

I have no problem with your with holding information you have regarding this matter.

It does smack of hypocrisy when you chide others for not being forthcoming when they have information.

[ithascome]

If you want it, you can get it. I'm doing what I think is right

What juliette thinks is right is best in this case.

I have read the complaint... it is not something I would ever think of posting here... it is way too graphic. I am sure we do have children or at least young teens that read this site. Also I would not want the whole world to read the details of my daughters abuse... would you? Think about the hurt parents also. Even the newspaper would not give a full report of the complaint if they were to report on it. Some things must be hidden from the general public.

It does smack of hypocrisy when you chide others for not being forthcoming when they have information.

juliette is not saying that a person should be forthcoming to the whole world ...is she?

Is the misinformation being posted here any better?

No it is worse because it is not the truth. The truth can be obtained if you wish to have it... I would hope you would be wise not to post it either.

[Scott Ross]

Here's my previous post:

Howdy need some help..

My email is:

[e-mail]

If you would like to email me and give me a good reason you want to know, I would be able to help you out.

Here are bad reasons-

You want to view something negative because he's a worker.

You have a desire to post this information out here on the TMB for people to pick apart.

Good reasons

You have children and are worried about time they spent with Tim.

You are professing and want to know if anything is being covered up.

You want to do what you can to help spread this info to others who might be affected by Tim's actions.

Feel free to email me- anyone. It doesn't mean I will get back to you. It is hard to tell a persons motives via the TMB, but if you give me a GOOD reason in your email to me, I will be sure you get the info.

As pointed out this is public information that anyone can get, but I do not want to be party to a 'witch hunt' here on the TMB.

A request with no reason given will not be responded to. Any request needs a valid email address.

Scott

This offer still stands. Just for your basic info..... Some have gotten it and some haven't. We don't need to continue to victimize the victims in this case.

Take a look at those who have posted here saying that they have read it. Think about the type of posters they are and if they have earned the respect and trust of those who read here. If so, just take their word for it.

I'm sure at some point morbid curiosity will prevail, and this will get posted by someone who is 'anonymous'. I can guarantee that it won't be by me, or any of us who have read it.

Scott

[BobWilliston]

Some mention has been made here of the matter of whether this worker may be innocent or guilty. I don't really think that's the importance of this discussion. The importance of this discussion is whether or not the situation will be handled properly, and that means by legal and competent authorities.

It is commendable that the workers acknowledged their concern and apparent respect for doing the right thing. I'm wondering, though, how many "on the inside" have (1) confronted the workers on this matter, or (2) bypassed the workers and gone to the legal authorities. Professing parents in the past have more often than not refused to cooperate with law enforcement in this matter even when they admit that their children have been victims. Shame on them - pity their children.

Frankly - child molestation by a worker has nothing at all to do with a celebate ministry. Married clergymen are every bit as prone to child molestation as celibate clergy. Child molesters are NEVER satisfied with a comfortable and fulfilling married sex life - they are hard-wired for something else that NO ONE knows how to fix. Unfortunately we have NO civilized protection from child molesters except through the law.

My guess is that the workers in Minnesota have learned a few lessons from child molesting worker cases in other states. It now remains to be seen whether professing parents will step up to their responsibility as parents from now on. We now have some brave pioneers in parenting to point them to for an example.

Bob Williston

[Deleted]

vegasbob said:

Frankly - child molestation by a worker has nothing at all to do with a celebate ministry. Married clergymen are every bit as prone to child molestation as celibate clergy. Child molesters are NEVER satisfied with a comfortable and fulfilling married sex life - they are hard-wired for something else that NO ONE knows how to fix. Unfortunately we have NO civilized protection from child molesters except through the law.

I have no particular knowledge of this particular case in Minnesota -- but in general with the cases of workers I have been acquainted with that have been involved in sexual scandals, I am convinced that it definately DOES have its roots in the unnatural celibacy of the work.

I know that there are 'hard wired' pedophiles in society that have a sexual perversion that is sickly and completely independent of environmental opportunity -- but this is fortunately not common in society in general ... and definitely not common amongst workers. To me it is rather simplistic to imply that all workers who get into unsuitable/illegal/destructive sexual situations are sadists and hard wired pedophiles worthy of contempt.

I have been fairly closely acquainted with 2 or three workers that have left the work as the result of what was implied as sexual impropriety in friends homes. To me, none of them were 'hard wired' pedophiles --- they were just ordinary people, in an unsuitable environment, that slip into completely unacceptable situations -- that then develops into something even worse!!! Life, especially in sexual context, can be an amazingly slippery slope!! 'The work' is especially treacherous in this regard.

Don't take me wrong, I am not justifying sexual misconduct, even in its mildest forms - I am fully aware of the seriousness, and I support every effort to expose and deal with it -- but I think it is wrong to classify sadistic pedophiles -- and all workers accused of sexual misconduct in the same category. It just isn't true!!

Rightly so, our greatest sympathies lie with victims and their families in this context --- However, even if it may seem unsuitable to express on a thread like this, the accused (and perhaps guilty) are also people that likely have feelings and are members of the same human race as the rest of us. I can't help but also feel their pain. The doctine that placed them on the edge of the cliff on a windy day, must bare its share of responsibility.

Edgar

[No agree]

edgarmassey said:

vegasbob said:

Frankly - child molestation by a worker has nothing at all to do with a celebate ministry. Married clergymen are every bit as prone to child molestation as celibate clergy. Child molesters are NEVER satisfied with a comfortable and fulfilling married sex life - they are hard-wired for something else that NO ONE knows how to fix. Unfortunately we have NO civilized protection from child molesters except through the law.

I have no particular knowledge of this particular case in Minnesota -- but in general with the cases of workers I have been acquainted with that have been involved in sexual scandals, I am convinced that it definately DOES have its roots in the unnatural celibacy of the work.

I know that there are 'hard wired' pedophiles in society that have a sexual perversion that is sickly and completely independent of environmental opportunity -- but this is fortunately not common in society in general ... and definitely not common amongst workers. To me it is rather simplistic to imply that all workers who get into unsuitable/illegal/destructive sexual situations are sadists and hard wired pedophiles worthy of contempt.

I have been fairly closely acquainted with 2 or three workers that have left the work as the result of what was implied as sexual impropriety in friends homes. To me, none of them were 'hard wired' pedophiles --- they were just ordinary people, in an unsuitable environment, that slip into completely unacceptable situations -- that then develops into something even worse!!! Life, especially in sexual context, can be an amazingly slippery slope!! 'The work' is especially treacherous in this regard.

Don't take me wrong, I am not justifying sexual misconduct, even in its mildest forms - I am fully aware of the seriousness, and I support every effort to expose and deal with it -- but I think it is wrong to classify sadistic pedophiles -- and all workers accused of sexual misconduct in the same category. It just isn't true!!

Rightly so, our greatest sympathies lie with victims and their families in this context --- However, even if it may seem unsuitable to express on a thread like this, the accused (and perhaps guilty) are also people that likely have feelings and are members of the same human race as the rest of us. I can't help but also feel their pain. The doctine that placed them on the edge of the cliff on a windy day, must bare its share of responsibility.

Edgar

Well I would have to disagree.

Other sexual impropriety is not equivalent to child molestation.
Sleeping with another mans wife or even statutory rape of an underage teenager (meaning under 18) is not even close to be similar to molestation of a young child.

A pedophile is often attracted to children of an inappropriate age e.g. anywhere from baby hood to lower teens. There is something inside there mind that has hardwired them and given them an unnatural attraction to young children.

When a normal person looks at a young child they see a child. Young and innocent, someone who still needs care of there parents, plays games and house, and does things a child does. They see someone with an innocent heart and mind who needs the protection of an adult. They do not see an object of sexual desire.

From reading about the way many people felt about this man, and that he was really good with children. In which it was stated that many the friends really liked him and felt he was really good with children. I do not believe that it was just incidental that he found him self in a difficult place with a child and opppsss something accidentally happened. It seems to me that he had a unnatural attraction to these children, and went out of his way to put himself in a place were he might play with them and spend time with them.

The whole definition of pedophile is:

Pedophilia, which is a psychological disorder, is a distinct sexual preference for pre-pubescent children. There victims are more often under 12 years of age.
Some pedophiles may not actually act on their desires. They may keep them secret from the whole world and live a life of silence.

On the other hand they may be put into a situation where they may feel they could act out these fantasies without being caught. Such as being a revered minister in a church. Where there is lots of trust.
Workers are put into a situation were there is ALOT OF TEMPTATION. But not every worker is going to be sexual tempted by 10 year old children. This man obviously was a pedophile to begin with, and then found himself in a situation that open up a roads were he could act on his pedophilia and actually molest children.

I would just like to say, that NORMAL people do not have sexual desire for young children. This is a disorder called pedophilia. And not all pedophiles act on the deranged fantasies. But those who do are not just normal people giving into temptation. They are hard wired pedophiles who are acting out there fantasies through child molestation.

Pedophiles go through years of cognitive therapy to try to correct there thinking, but often it is so hard wired that many never to get over there strange desire. Even though many may never give into the temptation to molest a child again, and may live in silence with these desires.

[ANDREW M]

Man at best is a creature prone to sin in all its forms and guises. We are born in sin and shapen in iniquity. This does not mean that every person shares the same temptations and lusts as the next. Far from it. What may be one person's strength may be another person's weakness. However, we are all inherently weak in one or more ways.

Although the sexual drive is by nature a very strong one, just as it is in the rest of the animal kingdom, designed to guarantee procreation and continuance of the species, there are some people for whom this desire is either not strong or non-existant. Some of these people can lead perfectly normal "single" lives without having strong desires to fulfill sexual potential. There are others however, for whom the desire may be strong and when denial of expression is enforced, can actually create a time-bomb. For this type of person "opportunity" may open the flood gates, producing a "diversity" of outlets for suppressed natural feelings which would normally be channelled and contained within a normal natural relationship.

Over the years I have had contact with many people connected with prison institutions. Many heterosexual prisoners having been denied normal heterosexual relationships over protracted periods of time, have willingly engaged in homosexual activities, not because they have turned homosexual, but because it has been the only outlet for their sexual urges. "Opportunity" has taken them in a direction they would not normally have travelled.

Similarly, if a "system" enforces celibacy upon those for whom such restraint is unwise, then a "trusting" environment can produce many opportunities even for deviant practices that the participants would perhaps not normally engage themselves in had they been freer to fulfill themselves through natural relationships.

The Friends and Workers system produces a very unhealthy "trusting" environment in many homes as far as workers (and in many cases - friends) are concerned. I say "unhealthy" because these are the people we were brought up to regard as trustworthy, beyond reproach, incapable of wrong-doing and who had a fair degree of governorship over our lives. We were brought up to be in submission to them.

Couple this trusting environment with opportunity for those to whom it would apply and you have a very unhealthy state of affairs.

[Deleted]

'no agree', You are welcome to disagree - and like I said, I am not trying to share opinion about the case in Minnesota. I have no problem with your definition of pedophilia, and I agree that when it can be defined as such, it is a horrible an extremely destructive disorder -- the sickness itself is not a crime - however allowing expression of its symptoms is a crime of serious dimension.

I presume the disagreement you have with me, is regarding the opinion that I have that of the workers involved in accusations of sexual issues in the homes of friends I don't know of any who really fit the definition of sickly pedophiles. (although I know that this has been the gossip that has been spread). The ones that I know about, and have seriously tried to find out what has happened (this is usually such classified info in the group that the only info available to ordinary folks is 3rd 4rth and 5th hand from extremely subjective sources) have never really fitted the definition of pedophiles -- all the three that I know about have lived fairly normal lives after expulsion from the work -- and functioned in family life as far as I could know. NOTE: I am NOT suggesting they were innocent -- and I am not suggesting they got the punishment due their crimes .. I am not supporting them in any way. I am just saying that classifying then together with some of the sickos in child pornography circles is unfair. This is what the internal gossip networks would like to do!

I also am aware of at least one worker put out of the work for alleged sexual crimes -- where the real reason was political. A worker accused of sexual crimes by group leadership has in principle ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBILITY to defend themselves. -- Don't try to tell me that it doesn't happen!

Edgar

It is only an opinion, but to me clinical pedophilia is not a major problem in the work (although I am sure it sometimes does happen and perhaps has in Minnesota) -- however sexual misconduct of serious dimension IS a hidden, but major problem.

[Nancy]

Edgar,

Do you have any facts to back up your claims? Sounds like just senseless rambling of a person who holds a grudge to me (boy, that's suprising).

How can you say that there is a huge, covered sexual problem in the work and then turn around and criticize church leaders for putting a worker out for accused sex crimes. That just makes no sense! You can't have it both ways.