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Post by chuck on Feb 22, 2024 17:02:18 GMT -5
A bit more than cleaning the house, the house is tumbling down. WI got the foundation wrong, he changed it a few times but still stuffed up. Should have used a builder who would get it right. The 2x2s foundation and builder is NOT William Irvine but Jesus Christ Himself! And His True apostles. We can read it in the gospels, the book of Acts and the epistles of the apostles themselves. God has preserved historical documents of Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and the New Testament Church the last 2000 years. William Irvine didn’t invent anything at all. He and the early days copied Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry from the Faith Mission; and they copied what they read from Jesus and the apostles teachings! So, Jesus Christ is the one the 2x2s workers and the friends follow NOT William Irvine, he had NOTHING new to offer them. He was excommunicated from the 2x2 ministry in 1914 and the fellowship in 1917. He was a 2x2 worker for only 17 years. The second and 3rd group William Irvine started with his own ideas, it failed miserably! And he died alone without money in Jerusalem in 1947. Jesus was a man, he's now dead, Christ is the name or characteristics of the man, it is to be used like the word LORD. Understand the terminology before using them wrongly and in way thay will only lead to more harm. The hurt that is coming to the fore for all to see is the result of people like you who feel compelled to ram religion down peoples throat and put them into slavery that is absent the Christ Character because you never understood the culture the scriptures come from to begin with.
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Post by chuck on Feb 22, 2024 17:21:28 GMT -5
A bit more than cleaning the house, the house is tumbling down. WI got the foundation wrong, he changed it a few times but still stuffed up. Should have used a builder who would get it right. You touch on something that is at the core of this. NO ONE ever gets it right, and when you get people starting religions because they have it all worked out the reciepts do not lie....... Religion is "the addiction to being right"........addictions ruin lives....
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Post by Dan on Feb 22, 2024 17:34:53 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear that Dan. You can be proud of your sister's integrity and courage. Do you still have a sister in the work?
Yes... She was upset and confused about this whole mess, but now seems resigned to the status quo. She got embarrassed by the ne'er-do-wells and got tired of apologizing for them. The faithful Christians (Friends) are her family, she trust them and doesn't want to deal with the insincere strays anymore. She's convinced its the right Way and regrets that a few perverts have tarnished the Truth.
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Post by chuck on Feb 22, 2024 17:36:07 GMT -5
A bit more than cleaning the house, the house is tumbling down. WI got the foundation wrong, he changed it a few times but still stuffed up. Should have used a builder who would get it right. The 2x2s foundation and builder is NOT William Irvine but Jesus Christ Himself! And His True apostles. We can read it in the gospels, the book of Acts and the epistles of the apostles themselves. God has preserved historical documents of Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and the New Testament Church the last 2000 years. William Irvine didn’t invent anything at all. He and the early days copied Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry from the Faith Mission; and they copied what they read from Jesus and the apostles teachings! So, Jesus Christ is the one the 2x2s workers and the friends follow NOT William Irvine, he had NOTHING new to offer them. He was excommunicated from the 2x2 ministry in 1914 and the fellowship in 1917. He was a 2x2 worker for only 17 years. The second and 3rd group William Irvine started with his own ideas, it failed miserably! And he died alone without money in Jerusalem in 1947. "Jesus Christ is the one the 2x2s workers and the friends follow" No, some may potray the Christ character, but the system of the 2x2's is something unto itself, if we had to draw similarities it would line up better with the Pharisees or "Caeser's way", they both have the characteristics of my way or the sword...... Although in historical context Julius Caesar for example did move humanity forward.....
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Post by snow on Feb 22, 2024 18:23:42 GMT -5
This is huge. Hopefully it will make others pay more attention to the what I've been sending media outlets. I have links now to the BBC article and also the new FBI hotline notice. The zoom the other night was hopeful. If anyone missed that zoom here is the link to watch it. There were hundreds on this zoom call. The biggest one I've seen yet. Edit: I posted this on another thread but I thought I'd post my thoughts here too. I wish everyone would listen to this last zoom. It's absolutely heartbreaking to listen to the survivors and have people ignore it and not report everything they are aware of and let the FBI deal with it. Do not filter what you know. Just call the FBI and tell them what you know. You don't need to be a survivor. I want to say to the survivors, you are not expected to call and tell your story if you cannot do that. We are all on a different stage of our journey. But people are dying, committing suicide etc. So people that are aware of what is happening be a community, be kind, and give the FBI what you know. Don't dwell on the divide of people being in or out. We're all in this together. We have all been a part of this church. We are a community whether we like it or not. Also, when you are on a public forum, think about what you're saying. Ask yourself will it help the survivor because we need to really watch our words. Don't force survivors to come forward until they are ready. Just support them. Be compassionate. Also, for the FBI to be involved in this is huge. They had to actually get funding to do this investigation. It's worldwide. Everyone can call them not just US citizens. We should not be calling the FBI about survivors though. The FBI need the survivor to be calling if they are comfortable doing so. Anything else in that sense is hearsay. Not only that, we might do more damage to the survivor if they were not in a place where they can do it, they may not be ready. So we need to remember that.
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Post by snow on Feb 22, 2024 18:29:20 GMT -5
These overseers knew it was wrong so you telling them it was wrong seems rather useless. Going to the police when they didn't listen is what should have been done. Anyone that knows of a child that was raped doesn't need to be told it is illegal and that they needed someone to intervene for them by calling child protection services and the authorities. I've had to do that before and it was 15 years ago. One reason my older sister left the Work after 15 years was because children were abused by a Worker in southern Illinois. One kid saw his abuser at a special mtg and got so upset that he got sick and went into the restroom and threw-up. My sister reported it to the Overseer, but nothing much was done, and she was essentially told to hush-up. Of course my sister had no idea how wide spread the problem was at the time and assumed it was an isolated incident. I think the mindset back then was that you don't turn on Friends or Workers, problems were handled internally. Calling the police would have gotten you thrown out of the Work. That's a control feature, keep it all in the family, its a spiritual matter, so keep a low profile by not involving or resorting to worldly help? A cult does a persons thinking for them instead of getting them to think for themselves. I'm surprised the FBI is getting involved, its usually handled in local jurisdictions. The FBI doesn't generally intercede unless a crime transcends state borders, but if there's no interstate felonies, it stays with local, county and state police.
We were told to never take a 'brother' to court. Everything was kept quiet quite efficiently. There were threats of excommunication if you didn't keep quiet and because the friends believed that only their group was going to heaven, to be kicked out was an impact on their salvation. Very horrible blackmail. The reason why the FBI are interested is because it's an international investigation now. They moved workers to other countries when they were found to have allegations in the US and Canada. Everyone worldwide can call that FBI hotline and report. Also, they are also interested in people who know how the money works so they are now looking at the whole system, the whole picture.
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Post by snow on Feb 22, 2024 18:35:50 GMT -5
I'm sorry to hear that Dan. You can be proud of your sister's integrity and courage. Do you still have a sister in the work? Yes... She was upset and confused about this whole mess, but now seems resigned to the status quo. She got embarrassed by the ne'er-do-wells and got tired of apologizing for them. The faithful Christians (Friends) are her family, she trust them and doesn't want to deal with the insincere strays anymore. She's convinced its the right Way and regrets that a few perverts have tarnished the Truth.
Does she understand that out of the 700+ abusers 40% of them are workers and the workers are 2% of the people in the group. Those are huge stats when you look at it like that. It's not just a 'few perverts'. It's a group that systemically allowed abusers to thrive and even those who didn't rape children many enabled those who did. So it's so huge. It's worse than the RCC as far as stats go and they are bad.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2024 18:40:42 GMT -5
Remember, the warning I alerted about CSA 23 years, and the 2x2 ministry and the friends didn’t think it was serious and harmful, now they and many of their children are paying a hefty price of pains and suffering for the rest of their lives. Their lives will NEVER be normal or the same for a long, long time. May God draw nears and give them the inner healing of the minds, emotional and natural healing for the bodies. So, take heed to my many other warnings on TMB, it will come to pass. This way, you wouldn’t get caught by surprised! End up in the wrong place/black holes for eternity. May God be with you, Curly. Who did you alert once you knew kids were being raped? Why didn't you go to the police? It was illegal then. My guess he alerted Dean Bruer, the overseer in his state. Need anyone ask anything more?
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2024 18:42:12 GMT -5
We didn’t know it was mandatory back then so, my older companion didn’t report it. I didn’t know too much about CSA law back then. We just preached the gospel. Now, the workers are more equips with CSA laws and they MUST report to the authority ASAP. The humane, moral thing to do is to protect children that were being raped whether it was the law or not. Just because no one told them to report doesn't absolve them from doing the right thing. How anyone could stand by and allow a child to be abused or raped and do nothing is beyond me. I don't need the law to tell me it's wrong and to do something about it. Most people don't need to be 'made' to report something like that. Back then, Nathan was more concerned with people who were having unconventions for people\ who were kicked out of meetings.
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Post by snow on Feb 22, 2024 18:45:38 GMT -5
The humane, moral thing to do is to protect children that were being raped whether it was the law or not. Just because no one told them to report doesn't absolve them from doing the right thing. How anyone could stand by and allow a child to be abused or raped and do nothing is beyond me. I don't need the law to tell me it's wrong and to do something about it. Most people don't need to be 'made' to report something like that. Back then, Nathan was more concerned with people who were having unconventions for people\ who were kicked out of meetings. That appears to be what all the overseers and senior workers were focused on. Don't remarry if divorced, make sure your hair and dress is 'right', you know, important stuff. It's appalling that workers who have claimed to be spirit led could silence the survivors of CSA. It's goes to show that all the talk about being 'special' and spirit led is just bs.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2024 18:58:42 GMT -5
Absolutely, and workers being raped by their senior companions should never have gone unreported. OMG And if one knew what life has been like for one such sister worker who actually threatened to call the police on such an overseer..... Shameful shameful shameful. I think the sh1t will hit the fan.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2024 19:00:21 GMT -5
The humane, moral thing to do is to protect children that were being raped whether it was the law or not. Just because no one told them to report doesn't absolve them from doing the right thing. How anyone could stand by and allow a child to be abused or raped and do nothing is beyond me. I don't need the law to tell me it's wrong and to do something about it. Most people don't need to be 'made' to report something like that. Now, I know better. The law will believe and back up the workers and the friends report on CSA. I say to the workers report CSA to the police without reporting it to the overseers. Go back into your shell, turtle.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2024 19:05:44 GMT -5
The 2x2s foundation and builder is NOT William Irvine but Jesus Christ Himself! And His True apostles. We can read it in the gospels, the book of Acts and the epistles of the apostles themselves. God has preserved historical documents of Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and the New Testament Church the last 2000 years. William Irvine didn’t invent anything at all. He and the early days copied Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry from the Faith Mission; and they copied what they read from Jesus and the apostles teachings! So, Jesus Christ is the one the 2x2s workers and the friends follow NOT William Irvine, he had NOTHING new to offer them. He was excommunicated from the 2x2 ministry in 1914 and the fellowship in 1917. He was a 2x2 worker for only 17 years. The second and 3rd group William Irvine started with his own ideas, it failed miserably! And he died alone without money in Jerusalem in 1947. Jesus was a man, he's now dead, Christ is the name or characteristics of the man, it is to be used like the word LORD. Understand the terminology before using them wrongly and in way thay will only lead to more harm. The hurt that is coming to the fore for all to see is the result of people like you who feel compelled to ram religion down peoples throat and put them into slavery that is absent the Christ Character because you never understood the culture the scriptures come from to begin with. Exactly right. No one has a clue where the term "christ" originated. Jesus wasn't even the first one.
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Post by snow on Feb 22, 2024 19:09:51 GMT -5
Jesus was a man, he's now dead, Christ is the name or characteristics of the man, it is to be used like the word LORD. Understand the terminology before using them wrongly and in way thay will only lead to more harm. The hurt that is coming to the fore for all to see is the result of people like you who feel compelled to ram religion down peoples throat and put them into slavery that is absent the Christ Character because you never understood the culture the scriptures come from to begin with. Exactly right. No one has a clue where the term "christ" originated. Jesus wasn't even the first one. The concept of the Christos was much older than Christianity. Alvin Boyd "This King of Glory' writes a book that gives the history of the concept of Christ/Christos.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 22, 2024 19:17:08 GMT -5
Exactly right. No one has a clue where the term "christ" originated. Jesus wasn't even the first one. The concept of the Christos was much older than Christianity. Alvin Boyd "This King of Glory' writes a book that gives the history of the concept of Christ/Christos. The other term in question is "messiah". The Roman church somehow manipulated the Hebrew term "messiah" to mean the same thing as the Greek term "christ" -- and the confusion has been reinforced by the plethora of translations into other languages.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 22, 2024 20:52:14 GMT -5
Who did you alert once you knew kids were being raped? Why didn't you go to the police? It was illegal then. My guess he alerted Dean Bruer, the overseer in his state. Need anyone ask anything more? FYI, my overseer was Howard M. Not Dean B. In 1990, please get your facts and information right.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 22, 2024 20:54:05 GMT -5
Now, I know better. The law will believe and back up the workers and the friends report on CSA. I say to the workers report CSA to the police without reporting it to the overseers. Go back into your shell, turtle. You talk too much! You’re getting your information all mixed up.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 22, 2024 21:05:03 GMT -5
The 2x2s foundation and builder is NOT William Irvine but Jesus Christ Himself! And His True apostles. We can read it in the gospels, the book of Acts and the epistles of the apostles themselves. God has preserved historical documents of Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and the New Testament Church the last 2000 years. William Irvine didn’t invent anything at all. He and the early days copied Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry from the Faith Mission; and they copied what they read from Jesus and the apostles teachings! So, Jesus Christ is the one the 2x2s workers and the friends follow NOT William Irvine, he had NOTHING new to offer them. He was excommunicated from the 2x2 ministry in 1914 and the fellowship in 1917. He was a 2x2 worker for only 17 years. The second and 3rd group William Irvine started with his own ideas, it failed miserably! And he died alone without money in Jerusalem in 1947. Jesus was a man, he's now dead, Christ is the name or characteristics of the man, it is to be used like the word LORD. Understand the terminology before using them wrongly and in way thay will only lead to more harm. The hurt that is coming to the fore for all to see is the result of people like you who feel compelled to ram religion down peoples throat and put them into slavery that is absent the Christ Character because you never understood the culture the scriptures come from to begin with. How could Jesus is dead now? When he spent 40 days having fellowship, expounding the scriptures that he is the Christ/Messiah after he raised from the dead with the apostles and 500 of his followers I Cor. 15:1-13. We read in Acts 1 the apostles saw Jesus ascended into the sky! He told them he must go back home/Venus to prepare New earth and heaven for them to dwell with him (John 15:1-3). How can you say Jesus is dead? Enoch, Jesus and Jude and other apostles said He is coming back soon! And every eyes will see Him in the sky. Rev. 1:8 Jude 14-15; Matthew 24.
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Post by fixit on Feb 22, 2024 21:08:55 GMT -5
And if one knew what life has been like for one such sister worker who actually threatened to call the police on such an overseer..... Shameful shameful shameful. I think the sh1t will hit the fan. It's sickening. Little children are raised from babies to believe that this is a Godly community if not the only Godly community and that God is in control. A young woman feels moved to sacrifice a normal family life and children of her own for the cause... Then her boss who makes all the arrangements for her life (and potentially holds her salvation in his hands) rapes her and threatens her to not tell anyone. It's evil, as is the collusion of all in the church who cover it up. wingsfortruth.info/2023/06/24/victims-of-leslie-white-speak-out/To teach that submission to the hierarchy is more important than "deep conviction before God" is idolatry and a root cause of the problems that the ministry has brought upon itself:
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 22, 2024 21:25:20 GMT -5
The humane, moral thing to do is to protect children that were being raped whether it was the law or not. Just because no one told them to report doesn't absolve them from doing the right thing. How anyone could stand by and allow a child to be abused or raped and do nothing is beyond me. I don't need the law to tell me it's wrong and to do something about it. Most people don't need to be 'made' to report something like that. Back then, Nathan was more concerned with people who were having unconventions for people\ who were kicked out of meetings. I still have love for the exes, today my love for souls haven’t changed. I listen to what the exes are saying about their concerns what they see and hear… Trying to get their message to the higher up in the ministry to pay attention and learn NOT to repeat the past sins. I still share the gospel to those that I know. I don’t want to destroy the bridge or shut the door on anyone.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 22, 2024 23:55:15 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see how they travel internationally now that the FBI are involved. Some workers and friends will find themselves turned around at the border. It will be more difficult to transport cash across international borders.
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Post by chuck on Feb 23, 2024 0:16:59 GMT -5
Yes... She was upset and confused about this whole mess, but now seems resigned to the status quo. She got embarrassed by the ne'er-do-wells and got tired of apologizing for them. The faithful Christians (Friends) are her family, she trust them and doesn't want to deal with the insincere strays anymore. She's convinced its the right Way and regrets that a few perverts have tarnished the Truth.
Does she understand that out of the 700+ abusers 40% of them are workers and the workers are 2% of the people in the group. Those are huge stats when you look at it like that. It's not just a 'few perverts'. It's a group that systemically allowed abusers to thrive and even those who didn't rape children many enabled those who did. So it's so huge. It's worse than the RCC as far as stats go and they are bad. I got jumped on by the enablers a year or so ago for saying that.
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Post by chuck on Feb 23, 2024 0:44:08 GMT -5
Jesus was a man, he's now dead, Christ is the name or characteristics of the man, it is to be used like the word LORD. Understand the terminology before using them wrongly and in way thay will only lead to more harm. The hurt that is coming to the fore for all to see is the result of people like you who feel compelled to ram religion down peoples throat and put them into slavery that is absent the Christ Character because you never understood the culture the scriptures come from to begin with. How could Jesus is dead now? When he spent 40 days having fellowship, expounding the scriptures that he is the Christ/Messiah after he raised from the dead with the apostles and 500 of his followers I Cor. 15:1-13. We read in Acts 1 the apostles saw Jesus ascended into the sky! He told them he must go back home/Venus to prepare New earth and heaven for them to dwell with him (John 15:1-3). How can you say Jesus is dead? Enoch, Jesus and Jude and other apostles said He is coming back soon! And every eyes will see Him in the sky. Rev. 1:8 Jude 14-15; Matthew 24. "40 years" is a idiom, that should be the first clue to not take it literally.... Then there is the word "Christ", which isn't some guys middle or last name...... And last of all dead people dont come back to life....they stay dead. I have been there and there is no sound rational in holding on to that position. Given the fact the writers come from a period of time that "story" was a tool and also built on superstition, it would be foolish to structure your life around the unknown as it is essentially gambling. This is why we are currently witnessing the devastating results of structuring lives on something just not true. It could only go bad, there was no alternative. How much more proof do you need than what is happening right now, its a complete disaster and you are completely blind to it but rather actively promote the catalyst to the disater in people's lives. People are being hurt, and its because of the "gospel message" you help/helped promote. It is a message of death not life, the recipts do not lie....
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 23, 2024 1:28:42 GMT -5
How could Jesus is dead now? When he spent 40 days having fellowship, expounding the scriptures that he is the Christ/Messiah after he raised from the dead with the apostles and 500 of his followers I Cor. 15:1-13. We read in Acts 1 the apostles saw Jesus ascended into the sky! He told them he must go back home/Venus to prepare New earth and heaven for them to dwell with him (John 15:1-3). How can you say Jesus is dead? Enoch, Jesus and Jude and other apostles said He is coming back soon! And every eyes will see Him in the sky. Rev. 1:8 Jude 14-15; Matthew 24. "40 years" is a idiom, that should be the first clue to not take it literally.... Then there is the word "Christ", which isn't some guys middle or last name...... And last of all dead people dont come back to life....they stay dead. I have been there and there is no sound rational in holding on to that position. Given the fact the writers come from a period of time that "story" was a tool and also built on superstition, it would be foolish to structure your life around the unknown as it is essentially gambling. This is why we are currently witnessing the devastating results of structuring lives on something just not true. It could only go bad, there was no alternative. How much more proof do you need than what is happening right now, its a complete disaster and you are completely blind to it but rather actively promote the catalyst to the disater in people's lives. People are being hurt, and its because of the "gospel message" you help/helped promote. It is a message of death not life, the recipts do not lie.... What happened to you, Chuck? Are you serious, you speak/write like an atheist these days. A few months ago, you were a 2x2 believer or a Christian. Now, you threw out the scriptures and Jesus right out the window and you called him a liar! He said he came back from the dead and you believe Jesus lied to us because he is still dead in the ground. It was “40 days not 40 years!” That Jesus stayed with the apostles and 500 believers AFTER his Soul/Spirit came back from the DEAD! In hades for 3 days and nights then his Spirit joined with his Old/Dead body in the tomb= The New Resurrected Jesus! Who is Eternal God before the foundation of the world.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 23, 2024 1:36:54 GMT -5
"40 years" is a idiom, that should be the first clue to not take it literally.... Then there is the word "Christ", which isn't some guys middle or last name...... And last of all dead people dont come back to life....they stay dead. I have been there and there is no sound rational in holding on to that position. Given the fact the writers come from a period of time that "story" was a tool and also built on superstition, it would be foolish to structure your life around the unknown as it is essentially gambling. This is why we are currently witnessing the devastating results of structuring lives on something just not true. It could only go bad, there was no alternative. How much more proof do you need than what is happening right now, its a complete disaster and you are completely blind to it but rather actively promote the catalyst to the disater in people's lives. People are being hurt, and its because of the "gospel message" you help/helped promote. It is a message of death not life, the recipts do not lie.... What happened to you, Chuck? Are you serious, you speak/write like an atheist these days. A few months ago, you were a 2x2 believer or a Christian. Now, you threw out the scriptures and Jesus right out the window and you called him a liar! He said he came back from the dead and you believe Jesus lied to us because he is still dead in the ground. You will be able to tell the FBI that your jesus lives in the interior of Venus.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 23, 2024 1:44:23 GMT -5
What happened to you, Chuck? Are you serious, you speak/write like an atheist these days. A few months ago, you were a 2x2 believer or a Christian. Now, you threw out the scriptures and Jesus right out the window and you called him a liar! He said he came back from the dead and you believe Jesus lied to us because he is still dead in the ground. You will be able to tell the FBI that your jesus lives in the interior of Venus. You better watch out the Adm. warns you NOT to mention Jesus from Venus! On the main page. Or he will send you to Siberia for a year vacation. LOL! Let me he will send you to Sebira for a year.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 23, 2024 1:47:13 GMT -5
You will be able to tell the FBI that your jesus lives in the interior of Venus. You better watch out the Adm. warns you NOT to mention Jesus from Venus! On the main page. Or he will send you to Siberia for a year vacation. LOL! So, the whereabouts of your jesus is part of your core beliefs. Are you not going to tell the FBI about this.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 23, 2024 1:53:24 GMT -5
You better watch out the Adm. warns you NOT to mention Jesus from Venus! On the main page. Or he will send you to Siberia for a year vacation. LOL! So, the whereabouts of your jesus is part of your core beliefs. Are you not going to tell the FBI about this. Hey, Adm. this Curly is testing you! Are you going to say something to him? Is he getting away without 20% warning?
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