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Post by Admin on Jan 10, 2024 23:01:39 GMT -5
In the adjacent thread Religious Abuse and Cults - Childhood Trauma, snow raised the issue of kids' experiences from a very young age, growing up in meeting culture. Many who have posted there no longer have a faith in the Christian God. It would be interesting to hear the experiences of those who grew up in the F&W as kids and who have retained a faith in God, whether still within the F&W church, or as exes in some other faith community. Hence this thread, for that opportunity (one who comes to mind, who I would appreciate reading of his experience in this regard - pretty tough from what I gather, is our friend magpies39plusOver to you (and all are welcome to post here, just as we have done on the other sister thread, making any comments/insight into whatever experiences are hopefully posted here). admin This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. This video really resonated with me because my parents were even more strict than a lot of the friends. The way the friends and workers treated me when I quit professing at 12 years old. Me being belittled by the workers when I asked questions. Being forced to attend meetings until I left home the night I wrote my final exam really was not an easy time for me. I had a year of real loneliness when I quit because I wasn't allowed friends from school and when I quit taking part in meetings I was viewed by many of kids parents as a 'bad influence' and that limited my access to some of the kids that had been my friend. I was told how ungrateful I was. After all my parents had given me everything when they adopted me and this is how I rewarded them. Things like that. I had one woman tell me I was the reason my mother got cancer. Because I was so hard to raise. Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. Anyway, I know now that a lot of exes suffer from many of the same struggles that I have over their lives so I wanted to start a conversation here if anyone feels they would like to comment. Finding out that the struggles I have had in life are very common has actually been very healing for me. I left 50 years ago and so I never knew anyone that had ever left. It's only been since I found this forum and more recently the ex2x2 site on Face Book that I have had any idea just how similar the trauma is for many of us. Now with the knowledge that the workers who we were supposed to believe were to be respected and almost worshipped in my household anyway, and the CSA. The number of survivors that must be feeling such trauma and betrayal. Thankfully I have worked through a lot of things over the years and have found a good deal of peace in my life. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 12, 2024 17:15:32 GMT -5
Don't think this thread is going anywhere  We've got a lot of atheists on TMB, and the other 'sister' thread probably helps a bit in explaining why the F&W has been such fertile ground for recruiting so many atheists (which is kind of weird when you think about the purpose of workers and their gospel meetings, but nevertheless it's clearly a real phenomenon). One thing that seems obvious from a non-atheist's perspective in deep and meaningful discussions with atheists is the human or natural tendency of superiority in one's mental reasoning prowess, or acumen in judging what we call proof. Of course, there's another dimension (call it spiritual) or maybe perspective, or way of glimpsing beyond the natural, that would render all such pride in our natural abilities as foolishness. But it seems there comes a point where it's just loggerheads, like chalk and cheese. Which also perhaps explains why Christian believers on TMB are a vanishing breed, these days. |
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Post by snow on Jan 12, 2024 17:31:23 GMT -5
Don't think this thread is going anywhere We've got a lot of atheists on TMB, and the other 'sister' thread probably helps a bit in explaining why the F&W has been such fertile ground for recruiting so many atheists (which is kind of weird when you think about the purpose of workers and their gospel meetings, but nevertheless it's clearly a real phenomenon). One thing that seems obvious from a non-atheist's perspective in deep and meaningful discussions with atheists is the human or natural tendency of superiority in one's mental reasoning prowess, or acumen in judging what we call proof. Of course, there's another dimension (call it spiritual) or maybe perspective, or way of glimpsing beyond the natural, that would render all such pride in our natural abilities as foolishness. But it seems there comes a point where it's just loggerheads, like chalk and cheese. Which also perhaps explains why Christian believers on TMB are a vanishing breed, these days. Admin, I would like to add that I think most 2x2's that left continue to believe and go to another church. I don't think us atheists are the majority. It didn't kill their faith it killed their trust in the workers. Many still believe. Also, I don't think atheists have more 'acumen' in judging proof. I just think it's different. Believers and atheists have different standards, but that doesn't make atheists better at it which is what I think you think atheists believe. I don't think that anyway. |
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Post by Mary on Jan 12, 2024 19:03:31 GMT -5
Don't think this thread is going anywhere We've got a lot of atheists on TMB, and the other 'sister' thread probably helps a bit in explaining why the F&W has been such fertile ground for recruiting so many atheists (which is kind of weird when you think about the purpose of workers and their gospel meetings, but nevertheless it's clearly a real phenomenon). One thing that seems obvious from a non-atheist's perspective in deep and meaningful discussions with atheists is the human or natural tendency of superiority in one's mental reasoning prowess, or acumen in judging what we call proof. Of course, there's another dimension (call it spiritual) or maybe perspective, or way of glimpsing beyond the natural, that would render all such pride in our natural abilities as foolishness. But it seems there comes a point where it's just loggerheads, like chalk and cheese. Which also perhaps explains why Christian believers on TMB are a vanishing breed, these days. I believe a reason Christian posters are leaving TMB is due to the beliefs being posted here. There is nothing edifying but also there have been a number of face book groups set up over the past year which people have moved to. Atheists and the bad behavior and false beliefs of a couple of professing people puts people off. Christians have moved onto better more positive environments. A couple of us are remaining faithful 'till the end. Can't promise though. I find the lay out of this board makes it easy to write on compared to face book. Maybe some of us just don't like change. |
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Post by bfvernon on Jan 14, 2024 1:32:07 GMT -5
After leaving the 2x2s, I had a period of about 12 years where I was very angry, hurt and sad, believing that because of my divorce I could never be acceptable to God. I did go to different churches occasionally, usually asking God’s forgiveness for entering a “worldly” church. I now understand that those years helped me to move on from being a dyed in the wool 2x2. I began attending a Presbyterian church regularly, and very quickly met Jesus for the first time in my life. A couple of years later I began studying remotely at the Anglican Bible College. My studies have led me to a place where I have academic proof of God’s will, His plan for our salvation and a firm belief in the resurrection. I am very grateful to be secure in the knowledge and understanding that I now have. It has taken a theological degree to correct all the inconsistencies of the 2x2s. I have a peace and confidence that was never mine in all the years in the 2x2s. I wish that every one could have the joy that I now have.
My next goal is to complete a PhD researching cults with the view to producing a tangible piece of work that will help people who want to leave.
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Post by bfvernon on Jan 14, 2024 6:25:26 GMT -5
I guess that I should add that I was traumatised in many ways as a child, some of it was the religion, some of it was the dysfunction of the family. Going to school was totally awful - long skirts, long hair, no pants or shorts. Everyone knew that we belonged to a weird religion. I wasn’t allowed to go to religious instruction which made it worse. Thankfully the school work interested me, and I didn’t have any problems academically or it would have been total hell. I even had to wear a hat to meetings when I was young, and just occasionally someone from school would see me. The humiliation was unspeakable.
I wanted to profess from quite young, finally doing it just before my 13th birthday. It was an attempt to belong and to fit in with the rest of the extended family. We didn’t have anything to do with “outsiders”. I totally believed the mantra that we could trace our roots back to the N.T., even when I went to university and studied history, English, sociology and anthropology. During sociology I would occasionally have logical thoughts about my lifestyle, but I quickly squashed them.
I had zero self awareness of who I was, so I married into a “royal” family very quickly. We were totally unsuited, but I was too afraid to marry “outside”. Sometimes I now think of other men from outside that I met who showed an interest in me, and wonder if my life would have been less chaotic if I had followed one of those leads.
My parents had dreadful burdens which made life awful. I have no idea why people from the 2x2s didn’t help us. Even our grandparents ignored what was pretty obvious. We did have relatives in the group who were wealthy. I guess there was more kudos for them by giving money to the Workers than for helping us. I’m pretty sure that no one even baked us a cake. And then there was the pedophile who was in our midst … Millions of stories.
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Post by xna on Jan 14, 2024 8:21:00 GMT -5
I guess that I should add that I was traumatised in many ways as a child, some of it was the religion, some of it was the dysfunction of the family. Thanks for sharing. Good luck on your journey. It sounds like you grew up in Europe? |
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Post by snow on Jan 14, 2024 13:28:35 GMT -5
After leaving the 2x2s, I had a period of about 12 years where I was very angry, hurt and sad, believing that because of my divorce I could never be acceptable to God. I did go to different churches occasionally, usually asking God’s forgiveness for entering a “worldly” church. I now understand that those years helped me to move on from being a dyed in the wool 2x2. I began attending a Presbyterian church regularly, and very quickly met Jesus for the first time in my life. A couple of years later I began studying remotely at the Anglican Bible College. My studies have led me to a place where I have academic proof of God’s will, His plan for our salvation and a firm belief in the resurrection. I am very grateful to be secure in the knowledge and understanding that I now have. It has taken a theological degree to correct all the inconsistencies of the 2x2s. I have a peace and confidence that was never mine in all the years in the 2x2s. I wish that every one could have the joy that I now have. My next goal is to complete a PhD researching cults with the view to producing a tangible piece of work that will help people who want to leave. One thing I see in cult leaders is the first thing they try to instill in their members is the belief that everyone else is lying. That they are special. 2x2 workers do this by saying the only people going to heaven are those who profess and are baptized through their ministry. Then they play God and kick people out or refuse to baptize people because they have the power to do that. If they truly believed that the only way to heaven was to profess and be baptized through their ministry, then excommunication and refusal to baptize for stupid reasons like hair too long for a guy or too short for a woman, is downright cruelty. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 14, 2024 18:33:26 GMT -5
One thing I see in cult leaders is the first thing they try to instil in their members is the belief that everyone else is lying. That they are special. 2x2 workers do this by saying the only people going to heaven are those who profess and are baptized through their ministry. Then they play God and kick people out or refuse to baptize people because they have the power to do that. If they truly believed that the only way to heaven was to profess and be baptized through their ministry, then excommunication and refusal to baptize for stupid reasons like hair too long for a guy or too short for a woman, is downright cruelty. The scary thing is that essentially every worker I know today seems to really believe this! Even what I would call the good and caring ones. Which makes your conclusion rather frightening. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 14, 2024 19:06:27 GMT -5
After leaving the 2x2s, I had a period of about 12 years where I was very angry, hurt and sad, believing that because of my divorce I could never be acceptable to God. I did go to different churches occasionally, usually asking God’s forgiveness for entering a “worldly” church. I now understand that those years helped me to move on from being a dyed in the wool 2x2. I began attending a Presbyterian church regularly, and very quickly met Jesus for the first time in my life. A couple of years later I began studying remotely at the Anglican Bible College. My studies have led me to a place where I have academic proof of God’s will, His plan for our salvation and a firm belief in the resurrection. I am very grateful to be secure in the knowledge and understanding that I now have. It has taken a theological degree to correct all the inconsistencies of the 2x2s. I have a peace and confidence that was never mine in all the years in the 2x2s. I wish that every one could have the joy that I now have. My next goal is to complete a PhD researching cults with the view to producing a tangible piece of work that will help people who want to leave. One thing I see in cult leaders is the first thing they try to instill in their members is the belief that everyone else is lying. That they are special. 2x2 workers do this by saying the only people going to heaven are those who profess and are baptized through their ministry. Then they play God and kick people out or refuse to baptize people because they have the power to do that. If they truly believed that the only way to heaven was to profess and be baptized through their ministry, then excommunication and refusal to baptize for stupid reasons like hair too long for a guy or too short for a woman, is downright cruelty. When you put it like that, it is quite a horrible thought. It's almost as they are casting people into hell themselves. I guess people don't really givt that particular angle on it, much thought.
People usually do not want to accept the truth. What they prefer is to think that what they believe, is the truth.
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Post by snow on Jan 15, 2024 17:35:57 GMT -5
One thing I see in cult leaders is the first thing they try to instill in their members is the belief that everyone else is lying. That they are special. 2x2 workers do this by saying the only people going to heaven are those who profess and are baptized through their ministry. Then they play God and kick people out or refuse to baptize people because they have the power to do that. If they truly believed that the only way to heaven was to profess and be baptized through their ministry, then excommunication and refusal to baptize for stupid reasons like hair too long for a guy or too short for a woman, is downright cruelty. When you put it like that, it is quite a horrible thought. It's almost as they are casting people into hell themselves. I guess people don't really givt that particular angle on it, much thought. People usually do not want to accept the truth. What they prefer is to think that what they believe, is the truth.
Yes it's not a good thought, but when you say your salvation depends on being in the Truth, when they excommunicate they are kind of playing God in a really bad way. It's no wonder people are so afraid of upsetting the workers in case they get kicked out because some truly believe it. Very scary way of controlling the friends. I keep thinking about that sister worker down east that complained to the overseer about her abuse and he told her to be quiet or they would excommunicate her family. That's downright cruel. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 15, 2024 18:03:25 GMT -5
When you put it like that, it is quite a horrible thought. It's almost as they are casting people into hell themselves. I guess people don't really givt that particular angle on it, much thought. People usually do not want to accept the truth. What they prefer is to think that what they believe, is the truth.
Yes it's not a good thought, but when you say your salvation depends on being in the Truth, when they excommunicate they are kind of playing God in a really bad way. It's no wonder people are so afraid of upsetting the workers in case they get kicked out because some truly believe it. Very scary way of controlling the friends. I keep thinking about that sister worker down east that complained to the overseer about her abuse and he told her to be quiet or they would excommunicate her family. That's downright cruel. I saw on a FB post by Robert McKee this morning that Willie McBrien in Ireland indecently assaulted a twelve year old girl while she was doing her school homework. She went and told her father. who then proceeded to take off his belt and beat the girl, warning her to never again make such allegations against a worker. This was in the 70's. It's enough to bring tears to the eyes, the injustice meted out to this poor child.
This is the perpetrator at bottom left.
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Post by snow on Jan 15, 2024 18:15:08 GMT -5
Yes it's not a good thought, but when you say your salvation depends on being in the Truth, when they excommunicate they are kind of playing God in a really bad way. It's no wonder people are so afraid of upsetting the workers in case they get kicked out because some truly believe it. Very scary way of controlling the friends. I keep thinking about that sister worker down east that complained to the overseer about her abuse and he told her to be quiet or they would excommunicate her family. That's downright cruel. I saw on a FB post by Robert McKee this morning that Willie McBrien in Ireland indecently assaulted a twelve year old girl while she was doing her school homework. She went and told her father. who then proceeded to take off his belt and beat the girl, warning her to never again make such allegations against a worker. This was in the 70's. It's enough to bring tears to the eyes, the injustice meted out to this poor child. This is the perpetrator at bottom left. Oh my. Makes you just want to cry. That poor girl would feel so betrayed by her father. And the father so brainwashed that he couldn't acknowledge that a worker could be an abuser. That could have been my dad though. Part of his thing other than worker worship was that the woman always did something to deserve the violence. When I divorced my husband for domestic violence he told me to go back to him and the reason I had been hit was because I wasn't submissive enough. My mother thankfully stood up for me. But that was the mindset for some men. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 15, 2024 18:52:27 GMT -5
I saw on a FB post by Robert McKee this morning that Willie McBrien in Ireland indecently assaulted a twelve year old girl while she was doing her school homework. She went and told her father. who then proceeded to take off his belt and beat the girl, warning her to never again make such allegations against a worker. This was in the 70's. It's enough to bring tears to the eyes, the injustice meted out to this poor child. This is the perpetrator at bottom left. Oh my. Makes you just want to cry. That poor girl would feel so betrayed by her father. And the father so brainwashed that he couldn't acknowledge that a worker could be an abuser. That could have been my dad though. Part of his thing other than worker worship was that the woman always did something to deserve the violence. When I divorced my husband for domestic violence he told me to go back to him and the reason I had been hit was because I wasn't submissive enough. My mother thankfully stood up for me. But that was the mindset for some men. I'm forgiving of those who simply used physical punishment back then, for actual wrongs. That was then, and this is now, where we are more enlightened. (Although I believe it still has a place of last resort, or when it's the most effective). I had an Uncle who used to beat his kids mercilessly for the slightest indiscretions, and in today's world, firstly I would be tempted to beat him up, but in reality he'd be up before the courts. Nowadays, I wonder if he actually derived some sort of sadistic satisfaction from it. But, oh, such a brown noser for the workers though!
I heard a story of a young girl who was almost strangled by her professing mother, when she was in the process of laying charges against a sister worker for assault.
I think there is brainwashing, and a sickness for people to behave like this. And for the workers to not stop it makes them culpable in my opinion. Unless a parent later on realised their mistake, apologised and made up for doing this, how could you ever forgive them.
So glad you mother stood up for you, and that you had the courage of your convictions to leave an abusive relationship.
Another thing I don't get, is some of these people have the biggest, loudest and sobbing-est (if that's a word!) testimonies at convention, and evoke such loud "Amens".
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Post by guest8 on Jan 15, 2024 19:37:49 GMT -5
I saw on a FB post by Robert McKee this morning that Willie McBrien in Ireland indecently assaulted a twelve year old girl while she was doing her school homework. She went and told her father. who then proceeded to take off his belt and beat the girl, warning her to never again make such allegations against a worker. This was in the 70's. It's enough to bring tears to the eyes, the injustice meted out to this poor child. This is the perpetrator at bottom left. Oh my. Makes you just want to cry. That poor girl would feel so betrayed by her father. And the father so brainwashed that he couldn't acknowledge that a worker could be an abuser. That could have been my dad though. Part of his thing other than worker worship was that the woman always did something to deserve the violence. When I divorced my husband for domestic violence he told me to go back to him and the reason I had been hit was because I wasn't submissive enough. My mother thankfully stood up for me. But that was the mindset for some men. Sorry Snow you had to experience that abuse. Domestic abuse whether physical or mental is abhorrent. Many don't seem to convey any remorse either. As you say a mindset for some. |
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Post by snow on Jan 16, 2024 17:39:13 GMT -5
Oh my. Makes you just want to cry. That poor girl would feel so betrayed by her father. And the father so brainwashed that he couldn't acknowledge that a worker could be an abuser. That could have been my dad though. Part of his thing other than worker worship was that the woman always did something to deserve the violence. When I divorced my husband for domestic violence he told me to go back to him and the reason I had been hit was because I wasn't submissive enough. My mother thankfully stood up for me. But that was the mindset for some men. I'm forgiving of those who simply used physical punishment back then, for actual wrongs. That was then, and this is now, where we are more enlightened. (Although I believe it still has a place of last resort, or when it's the most effective). I had an Uncle who used to beat his kids mercilessly for the slightest indiscretions, and in today's world, firstly I would be tempted to beat him up, but in reality he'd be up before the courts. Nowadays, I wonder if he actually derived some sort of sadistic satisfaction from it. But, oh, such a brown noser for the workers though! I heard a story of a young girl who was almost strangled by her professing mother, when she was in the process of laying charges against a sister worker for assault.
I think there is brainwashing, and a sickness for people to behave like this. And for the workers to not stop it makes them culpable in my opinion. Unless a parent later on realised their mistake, apologised and made up for doing this, how could you ever forgive them. So glad you mother stood up for you, and that you had the courage of your convictions to leave an abusive relationship. Another thing I don't get, is some of these people have the biggest, loudest and sobbing-est (if that's a word!) testimonies at convention, and evoke such loud "Amens".
Yes physical punishment was the times and I understand that. We do what we know. But I think that parents that took it to the extreme have major issues themselves in one way or another. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 23, 2024 16:58:43 GMT -5
I'm forgiving of those who simply used physical punishment back then, for actual wrongs. That was then, and this is now, where we are more enlightened. (Although I believe it still has a place of last resort, or when it's the most effective). I had an Uncle who used to beat his kids mercilessly for the slightest indiscretions, and in today's world, firstly I would be tempted to beat him up, but in reality he'd be up before the courts. Nowadays, I wonder if he actually derived some sort of sadistic satisfaction from it. But, oh, such a brown noser for the workers though! I heard a story of a young girl who was almost strangled by her professing mother, when she was in the process of laying charges against a sister worker for assault.
I think there is brainwashing, and a sickness for people to behave like this. And for the workers to not stop it makes them culpable in my opinion. Unless a parent later on realised their mistake, apologised and made up for doing this, how could you ever forgive them. So glad you mother stood up for you, and that you had the courage of your convictions to leave an abusive relationship. Another thing I don't get, is some of these people have the biggest, loudest and sobbing-est (if that's a word!) testimonies at convention, and evoke such loud "Amens".
Yes physical punishment was the times and I understand that. We do what we know. But I think that parents that took it to the extreme have major issues themselves in one way or another. I was luckier than a lot of kids in my generation. I was spanked, but my parents had definite boundaries over physical discipline 1) open hand only, on the butt 2) stop before the child is old enough to remember it. Even so, I remember the last time I was spanked by my Dad and the last time I was spanked by my mom. I would have been around Age 5 in both instances. I remember the circumstances, clear as day. Interestingly, (though I haven't thought of either situation for years) it still pisses me off a little bit. A little talking would have been much more effective in both situations. By the time I was an adult, people, in general, were not resorting to physical discipline. So it never was an issue for me. I was struck by your statement of "We do what we know." The second part to this, that has helped me so much through the years (over other issues) is "Now we know better, we do better." It acknowledges the wrong we have done, and releases us, provided we take complete responsibility for our actions in the future. |
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Post by snow on Jan 25, 2024 14:51:35 GMT -5
Yes physical punishment was the times and I understand that. We do what we know. But I think that parents that took it to the extreme have major issues themselves in one way or another. I was luckier than a lot of kids in my generation. I was spanked, but my parents had definite boundaries over physical discipline 1) open hand only, on the butt 2) stop before the child is old enough to remember it. Even so, I remember the last time I was spanked by my Dad and the last time I was spanked by my mom. I would have been around Age 5 in both instances. I remember the circumstances, clear as day. Interestingly, (though I haven't thought of either situation for years) it still pisses me off a little bit. A little talking would have been much more effective in both situations. By the time I was an adult, people, in general, were not resorting to physical discipline. So it never was an issue for me. I was struck by your statement of "We do what we know." The second part to this, that has helped me so much through the years (over other issues) is "Now we know better, we do better." It acknowledges the wrong we have done, and releases us, provided we take complete responsibility for our actions in the future. Mine was a bit more physical than yours. I like the second part 'Now we know better, we do better'. That's all we can hope for. Changing our ways when it is revealed that the old ways were harmful. |
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This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. This video really resonated with me because my parents were even more strict than a lot of the friends. The way the friends and workers treated me when I quit professing at 12 years old. Me being belittled by the workers when I asked questions. Being forced to attend meetings until I left home the night I wrote my final exam really was not an easy time for me. I had a year of real loneliness when I quit because I wasn't allowed friends from school and when I quit taking part in meetings I was viewed by many of kids parents as a 'bad influence' and that limited my access to some of the kids that had been my friend. I was told how ungrateful I was. After all my parents had given me everything when they adopted me and this is how I rewarded them. Things like that. I had one woman tell me I was the reason my mother got cancer. Because I was so hard to raise. Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. 
