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Post by Admin on Jan 4, 2024 15:23:41 GMT -5
Received from a source Downunder:
Dear friends & family,
I have made the decision to step away from meetings in support of the victim/survivor's of Child Sexual Abuse/Sexual Abuse & bullying within the ministry & church. An adult shouldn't need to do a Ministry Safe course to know that raping & sexually abusing a young child is evil & of satan.
In March 2023 Dean Bruer's life was exposed to (some) in the church by email. Not for the good life he had lived but for the evil, deceitful life he had lived. Since then approx. 700+ more abusers have been identified from 22 countries (100 of them in Australia) with silence about them from the ministry. Approx 40% of these abusers are workers/ex-workers. The rest are those who profess to serve God in the fellowship. These statistics from Advocates for the victim/survivors are shocking & a huge grief. That means there are thousands of victims worldwide. The victim/survivors were 'little meeting children' when these crimes were done to them. Where is the deep sorrow, publicly proclaimed sincere apologies & repentance from the ministry for their cover-up of the abuse? The abuse of power, deceit, secrecy, betrayal & corruption at the highest level of the ministry & church has caused the abuse to continue to this day. Deceit breaks trust & when trust is broken respect & love dies. Matthew 7 v15.
Where is their love for the souls of the abused children who have become broken & traumatized adults?
Child sexual abuse/sexual abuse is premeditated evil not a 'mistake' or a 'weak moment'. It's a crime.
I can no longer support, trust or have confidence in those in the ministry who do not support the injured & abused in the fellowship, glossing over the wrong doing, denying & covering up the evil deeds & re-locating the sexual predators & bullies in the ministry & church to other meetings, states or countries.
Crimes were known & crimes were covered up - again & again & again for decades. This is what betrayal looks like
But I do support & have confidence in the one true God - my God in whom I can & do trust. I am not stepping away from God I am stepping away from a religion. God does not deceive, manipulate or lie. It's God's approval I need - God is the one I will stand before on Judgement Day - those in the ministry & fellowship will not be judging me. I have read the stories & heard the cries of too many injured sheep - my heart hurts for the children/adults who are still being ignored.
Our children, grandchildren & future generations matter, they are at risk.
This is the huge problem the church is facing now worldwide - those turning a blind eye, enabling evil to continue, not willing to face the truth of what's happening, talk about or confront these heinous crimes but are just going on with life as usual & ignoring the wounded & hurting survivors in the ditch. There are very few good Samaritans & many of them are being ex-communicated, traumatized & judged by overseers/workers & those in the fellowship for speaking out about the abuse in the church (as has happened in Qld in recent months).
There is little to no transparency, honesty or accountability from a ministry that claims to be 'God's only ordained ministers' & 'God's only door to heaven'. They should be showing the fruits of the Spirit - not the marks of the flesh. Mathew 7 v 16-20.
Mark 9 v 42 - Clear consequences for those who would harm/offend one of God's little ones.
I have loved this fellowship - i grew up in it. I love God & his way.
I never imagined I would need to stand against abuse & criminality being openly tolerated in this congregation & ministry.
I've felt betrayed, distressed & disillusioned over the last 9 months to learn the real truth about 'the church' I've trusted, believed & been sincerely a part of for nearly 50 years. Many people I've respected & looked up to are a facade (the pharisee nature). Their moral compass is broken & they are following evil. Matthew 23 v 27,28.
The bible teaches us to separate ourselves from evil & that's what God has called me to do. It is more important for me to obey God than man. God doesn't dwell with deceit & evil. I can not unsee the things i have seen & can not unknow the things which have become known to me. And it was all hidden. Why was it all hidden? Was it to protect the image of a pure & celibate ministry? Was it to further entrench the image of the fellowship as the 'Only Way to Heaven'?
Jesus is the only way.
Shame on the fellowship that there are people 'outside' the fellowship that care more for the survivors of sexual abuse & are doing more to help the survivors than people 'inside' the fellowship.
Some of you may find this a harsh letter but there are very very serious problems in the ministry & fellowship worldwide (that many won't even acknowledge) that are too horrendous to ignore & I wanted you all to know the truth from me (& not from gossip behind my back) of why I've made this choice to step away from this religion.
I haven't made this choice because of bitterness but because the Spirit & love of God isn't showing in the words or actions of the ministry/church for the victim/survivors.
2 Corinthians 11 v13-15.
My faith is in God not in a 'religious system' because God doesn't save 'religious systems' he saves souls.
John 8 v 32. You shall know the truth & the truth shall make you free.
I made my choice to follow Jesus, I didn't make my choice to follow the workers, (thank you to the one who was willing to tell the truth & speak the last sentence out loud in our meeting last year). Jesus said 'I am the way, the truth & the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. That is a very clear statement. There is only 'one way' & 'one truth' & that is Jesus. Jesus didn't come to earth to start a religion, he said 'Follow Me'.
John 10 v 27,28,29.
With honesty & trust in God only
[A follower of Jesus,
Queensland, Australia]
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 15:33:08 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever...
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Post by help on Jan 4, 2024 16:06:29 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... Not a good look for religion, it is not achieving what it is supposed to do. So why bother with it. I agree with the comment made by Wendy Alcorn, "An adult shouldn't need to do a Ministry Safe course to know that raping & sexually abusing a young child is evil & of satan". |
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
50%
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Post by nathan2 on Jan 4, 2024 16:12:44 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... ~~~ Let them tried the RCC and 60,000 plus Protestant denominations and will find similar problems happen there too! In John 6 MANY disciples of Jesus left Him and didn’t want to follow him any longer because they didn’t fully understand when he told them UNLESS you eat my flesh and drink my Blood you can’t be SAVED or to Enter heaven. They were shocked and abhorred what he said because that was against the Old Testament teachings. Too bad, they didn’t ask Jesus to explain what he meant by those teachings, they just got up and LEFT! Jesus turned and asked the 12 apostles, “Will you go away also?” Peter spoke up and said to Jesus “Lord, to whom shall we go, thou has the Words of Eternal life.” When Jesus told His follower to eat his flesh and drink His blood he was talking about the time in coming in Luke 22 God the Father and Christ have set up an appointed Places of WORSHIP God in Spirit and in Truth, where the apostles and true believers come together praising the Godhead goodness, mercy, Divine Love to ALL, forgiveness…. To give Thanks! and to commemorate jesus life to give us eternal life, his death to forgives our daily sins, and the Resurrection day where we will receive the NEW resurrection bodies to LIVE with God forever and ever= For all believers and apostles to partake the Eucharists on Sunday in the homes of believers, the Bread/his flesh or teachings foods/energy life nourishment for the souls. The blood=his precious blood the Lamb of God to cleanse our past sins and daily sins to the time of Jesus returns. The believers to keep this practice of the New Testament covenant to the time of Jesus RETURNS and after this life are over. The Overseers and 2x2s will get their acts together and eliminate CSA problems from among them so, give them time. Too much! Information available on line on 2x2 CSA and the cried, anguish, pains of the friends have reached to God and he had heard their cries for Justice. |
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Post by help on Jan 4, 2024 16:34:30 GMT -5
"The blood=his precious blood the Lamb of God to cleanse our past sins and daily sins to the time of Jesus returns. The believers to keep this practice of the New Testament covenant to the time of Jesus RETURNS and after this life are over".
Therein lies the problem, creates an out for sin, allows sin, instead of trying to stop it.
I much prefer Buddhism where you suffer the consequences of your actions and this is just a fact of nature. Makes much more sense.
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Post by Mary on Jan 4, 2024 16:43:19 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... Minimize the abuse in your own church by looking at others. Many churches have been focused on stopping abuse for years while the workers have continued to victimize the victims and protect the abuser. I was in meetings for the first 30 years of my life and experienced sexual and other abuse from those in the church. I've been out as long and have not heard of a case within a church I have attended and am in the forefront of the field. I'd be leaving fast if they swept it under the rug like the workers have in the past. Nathan, the Bible says come out from among them and be ye separate. You say give them time. They've had years. They've ignored people's cries. |
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Post by guest8 on Jan 4, 2024 17:18:01 GMT -5
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 4, 2024 17:25:04 GMT -5
I agree, this is excellent.
It is the kind of letter that I hope I would have been capable of writing, if I had still been a member.
When I see statements, such as this "I am not stepping away from God I am stepping away from a religion.", I am very happy because I know that she is going to be more than okay, whatever her future holds.
As a (happily) ex-member of almost 3 decades now, I am surprised at how much processing I have personally had to do over the 2X2 events of the past year.
The above statements are all especially pertinent to the processing that I am still doing. I very much concur that CSA/SA is a premeditated evil. It is most definitely not a mistake, a momentary weakness, lapse, or a slip-up. It is thought-after-thought, thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of thoughts that are not only (largely) unchecked, but each succeeding thought pushes the boundaries of the preceding thought further and further. Until the unspeakable happens.
It is a crime. Yes. But a crime against what?
CSA/SA is somehow more than a crime against the laws of our land. (Strictly speaking, speeding in traffic is a crime.)
I have long reflected on this verse:
Matthew 12:31 King James Version
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Now, I am not a Bible literalist, nor am I Christian-exclusive. But the idea of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has always seemed a very profound one to me. What is it? Where is that line? When is it crossed? I have listened to all the arguments, commentaries, and interpretations of this through the years but never has a single one made me say "Nailed it."
I wonder. I really wonder.
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Post by Admin on Jan 4, 2024 17:36:02 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... ~~~ Let them tried the RCC and 60,000 plus Protestant denominations and will find similar problems happen there too! In John 6 MANY disciples of Jesus left Him and didn’t want to follow him any longer ... Nobody here is "leaving Jesus". Read the letter again. In fact, she's turning TO JESUS and away from a system with systemic and ungodly failures that have not been addressed appropriately according to scripture. The Overseers and 2x2s will get their acts together and eliminate CSA problems from among them so, give them time. How much time are you thinking? This criminal and ungodly behavior can (and must) be addressed immediately. In one day, not weeks or months or long years. The damage these senior overseers and workers have done to this fellowship - at least where some of us live - is tragically immense. As the writer said, "Where is the deep sorrow, publicly proclaimed sincere apologies & repentance from the ministry for their cover-up of the abuse? The abuse of power, deceit, secrecy, betrayal & corruption at the highest level of the ministry & church has caused the abuse to continue to this day. Deceit breaks trust & when trust is broken respect & love dies. Matthew 7 v15." Respectful posts only on this thread please, others will be removed. Any unable to comply will be warned, etc. |
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Post by Mary on Jan 4, 2024 17:45:22 GMT -5
I agree, this is excellent. It is the kind of letter that I hope I would have been capable of writing, if I had still been a member. When I see statements, such as this "I am not stepping away from God I am stepping away from a religion.", I am very happy because I know that she is going to be more than okay, whatever her future holds. As a (happily) ex-member of almost 3 decades now, I am surprised at how much processing I have personally had to do over the 2X2 events of the past year. The above statements are all especially pertinent to the processing that I am still doing. I very much concur that CSA/SA is a premeditated evil. It is most definitely not a mistake, a momentary weakness, lapse, or a slip-up. It is thought-after-thought, thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of thoughts that are not only (largely) unchecked, but each succeeding thought pushes the boundaries of the preceding thought further and further. Until the unspeakable happens. It is a crime. Yes. But a crime against what? CSA/SA is somehow more than a crime against the laws of our land. (Strictly speaking, speeding in traffic is a crime.) I have long reflected on this verse: Matthew 12:31 King James Version "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Now, I am not a Bible literalist, nor am I Christian-exclusive. But the idea of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has always seemed a very profound one to me. What is it? Where is that line? When is it crossed? I have listened to all the arguments, commentaries, and interpretations of this through the years but never has a single one made me say "Nailed it." I wonder. I really wonder. It was a great letter and great that people are willing to stand up and speak out. I am wondering what the writer meant by saying she is not stepping away from God but stepping away from a religion. She also refers to Jesus as the way etc. Seems she is not stepping away from a religion but away from the church she has been attending. Also her last sentence, I agree , Jesus did not come to start a religion. However, Christianity did start with him. Christianity is a religion. Are the 2x2s not considered Christian? |
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Post by snow on Jan 4, 2024 18:07:11 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... The difference is that other churches are doing something about it. So far many of the overseers are getting rid of workers and people that complain to them about the CSA issues. They are pretending that there is no problem. Over 5000 survivors so far and over 600 abusers. 40% of those abusers are workers. That's huge. We now know that they've been enabling them for decades. In a meeting with overseer from Sask. Man. lately the friends confronted him on what he was going to do about it. He literally left the meeting saying he didn't know what to do. It's pretty straight forward what he should do. Not allow abusers in meetings with small children. Surely anyone with any moral compass would be able to figure that out. It's not that the fact that there are abusers everywhere and you won't find a group without them, it's what they do in these groups when they find out about an abuser that should define the group. So far the 2x2 leadership are not coming up to moral standards. |
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Post by snow on Jan 4, 2024 18:11:28 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... ~~~ Let them tried the RCC and 60,000 plus Protestant denominations and will find similar problems happen there too! In John 6 MANY disciples of Jesus left Him and didn’t want to follow him any longer because they didn’t fully understand when he told them UNLESS you eat my flesh and drink my Blood you can’t be SAVED or to Enter heaven. They were shocked and abhorred what he said because that was against the Old Testament teachings. Too bad, they didn’t ask Jesus to explain what he meant by those teachings, they just got up and LEFT! Jesus turned and asked the 12 apostles, “Will you go away also?” Peter spoke up and said to Jesus “Lord, to whom shall we go, thou has the Words of Eternal life.” When Jesus told His follower to eat his flesh and drink His blood he was talking about the time in coming in Luke 22 God the Father and Christ have set up an appointed Places of WORSHIP God in Spirit and in Truth, where the apostles and true believers come together praising the Godhead goodness, mercy, Divine Love to ALL, forgiveness…. To give Thanks! and to commemorate jesus life to give us eternal life, his death to forgives our daily sins, and the Resurrection day where we will receive the NEW resurrection bodies to LIVE with God forever and ever= For all believers and apostles to partake the Eucharists on Sunday in the homes of believers, the Bread/his flesh or teachings foods/energy life nourishment for the souls. The blood=his precious blood the Lamb of God to cleanse our past sins and daily sins to the time of Jesus returns. The believers to keep this practice of the New Testament covenant to the time of Jesus RETURNS and after this life are over. The Overseers and 2x2s will get their acts together and eliminate CSA problems from among them so, give them time. Too much! Information available on line on 2x2 CSA and the cried, anguish, pains of the friends have reached to God and he had heard their cries for Justice. Since the Bruer revelation broke they have had plenty of time to do the right thing. They've also known this has been happening for decades and haven't done a thing about it. Frandle went to jail for not reporting. A moral person should not have to be told that raping children is wrong. Thousands of survivors and hundreds of abusers and that's not taking into consideration the overseers that knew of the abuse and moved the worker to another area without reporting it or even warning the friends with small children in the new area. There is zero excuse for that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 19:47:13 GMT -5
"The blood=his precious blood the Lamb of God to cleanse our past sins and daily sins to the time of Jesus returns. The believers to keep this practice of the New Testament covenant to the time of Jesus RETURNS and after this life are over". Therein lies the problem, creates an out for sin, allows sin, instead of trying to stop it. I much prefer Buddhism where you suffer the consequences of your actions and this is just a fact of nature. Makes much more sense. oh there will be consequences....Buddhism only does the present God takes care of it for all time.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 19:51:51 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... Minimize the abuse in your own church by looking at others. Many churches have been focused on stopping abuse for years while the workers have continued to victimize the victims and protect the abuser. I was in meetings for the first 30 years of my life and experienced sexual and other abuse from those in the church. I've been out as long and have not heard of a case within a church I have attended and am in the forefront of the field. I'd be leaving fast if they swept it under the rug like the workers have in the past. Nathan, the Bible says come out from among them and be ye separate. You say give them time. They've had years. They've ignored people's cries. uh huh...that's a fairly naive view of other churches...this is an issue everywhere even in more than just religion. pedos are everywhere, some get caught some don't or don't for quite sometime....if you know anything of pedophilia as you say you were abused (I believe you) you'd know that this can go on a long time without ever coming up or being revealed.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 19:53:23 GMT -5
thanks for finding that... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 19:55:16 GMT -5
I agree, this is excellent. It is the kind of letter that I hope I would have been capable of writing, if I had still been a member. When I see statements, such as this "I am not stepping away from God I am stepping away from a religion.", I am very happy because I know that she is going to be more than okay, whatever her future holds. As a (happily) ex-member of almost 3 decades now, I am surprised at how much processing I have personally had to do over the 2X2 events of the past year. The above statements are all especially pertinent to the processing that I am still doing. I very much concur that CSA/SA is a premeditated evil. It is most definitely not a mistake, a momentary weakness, lapse, or a slip-up. It is thought-after-thought, thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of thoughts that are not only (largely) unchecked, but each succeeding thought pushes the boundaries of the preceding thought further and further. Until the unspeakable happens. It is a crime. Yes. But a crime against what? CSA/SA is somehow more than a crime against the laws of our land. (Strictly speaking, speeding in traffic is a crime.) I have long reflected on this verse: Matthew 12:31 King James Version "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Now, I am not a Bible literalist, nor am I Christian-exclusive. But the idea of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has always seemed a very profound one to me. What is it? Where is that line? When is it crossed? I have listened to all the arguments, commentaries, and interpretations of this through the years but never has a single one made me say "Nailed it." I wonder. I really wonder. Blasphemy most don't even know what it actually is....luckily you can't do it by mistake.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2024 19:59:20 GMT -5
If their looking for a church or even a religion that doesn't have this happening, they'll be looking forever... The difference is that other churches are doing something about it. So far many of the overseers are getting rid of workers and people that complain to them about the CSA issues. They are pretending that there is no problem. Over 5000 survivors so far and over 600 abusers. 40% of those abusers are workers. That's huge. We now know that they've been enabling them for decades. In a meeting with overseer from Sask. Man. lately the friends confronted him on what he was going to do about it. He literally left the meeting saying he didn't know what to do. It's pretty straight forward what he should do. Not allow abusers in meetings with small children. Surely anyone with any moral compass would be able to figure that out. It's not that the fact that there are abusers everywhere and you won't find a group without them, it's what they do in these groups when they find out about an abuser that should define the group. So far the 2x2 leadership are not coming up to moral standards. It's such a taboo subject...I'd say most churches have never got right on this with the very first report...most took some time to get going on reporting and punishing this. There is no record generally of this from a church perspective. the Truth will have to do some serious catchup just like some others already did... |
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Post by guest8 on Jan 4, 2024 20:06:11 GMT -5
The world wide fellowship is so interconnected. When I was attending, I knew so many in the sth and nth island of NZ. I was quite in awe of that fact & always used to think it was unique in that respect. And now, I understand so many friends worldwide are connected and know of each family & workers in many places. So when something negative happens in the interconnected fellowship, dialogue abounds worldwide. I believe if I was attending, for example, an Anglican church, I may get to know some in that particular church but not in the church in the next town and certainly not in another country. Hence, its possible I may not in fact be be socialising with all who attend that church or know much about them. I doubt very much, if cases of CSA were found in such a church, that anyone would be ringing a member of that denomination in another place saying, for example, “ did you know Mr Hiphop abused a teenager?” nor that Anglican social media sites worldwide, would be discussing it and mentioning individual names. I doubt very much, if ‘every’ church/ denomination worldwide is totally aware of their regulars/ non regulars congregation & doing a successful sweep to eliminate CSA in their midst. Good on those that are.  Differences. Perspective. |
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Post by Mary on Jan 4, 2024 21:36:09 GMT -5
The world wide fellowship is so interconnected. When I was attending, I knew so many in the sth and nth island of NZ. I was quite in awe of that fact & always used to think it was unique in that respect. And now, I understand so many friends worldwide are connected and know of each family & workers in many places. So when something negative happens in the interconnected fellowship, dialogue abounds worldwide. I believe if I was attending, for example, an Anglican church, I may get to know some in that particular church but not in the church in the next town and certainly not in another country. Hence, its possible I may not in fact be be socialising with all who attend that church or know much about them. I doubt very much, if cases of CSA were found in such a church, that anyone would be ringing a member of that denomination in another place saying, for example, “ did you know Mr Hiphop abused a teenager?” nor that Anglican social media sites worldwide, would be discussing it and mentioning individual names. I doubt very much, if ‘every’ church/ denomination worldwide is totally aware of their regulars/ non regulars congregation & doing a successful sweep to eliminate CSA in their midst. Good on those that are. Differences. Perspective. The media prints cases of sexual abuse which have been through the courts regardless of denomination. Not only do people get to know what happens in their denomination but in others. Look at Hillsong church and at least 2 abuse cases in churches not to forget the Catholic Church, in NZ media the last year. Hopefully churches are telling people to report these crimes rather than hiding them like the workers who have no choice now due to workers being convicted for hiding it. I am aware that most abuse goes unreported but it is a legal requirement for a number of persons to report CSA. There are networks of members and former members of many churches. I've had contact with far more exes since leaving than i ever did while in and that was before social media. |
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Post by verna on Jan 4, 2024 22:06:14 GMT -5
It's such a taboo subject...I'd say most churches have never got right on this with the very first report...most took some time to get going on reporting and punishing this. There is no record generally of this from a church perspective. the Truth will have to do some serious catchup just like some others already did... ~~ When I was in the work from 1986 -1993 we encountered CSA within the fellowship we had very little guideline on how to handle it. We told the victims to forgive the abusers, Pray to God and move on with their lives and NOT to bitter about. God will deal with the abusers according to His time. I was in Montana field and we recommend the abusers and victims of CSA to find a professional help, who was professing man so, they went to see him. After I left the worker 1993 in the year 2000 we few of us professing friends come together trying to inform, educate and warning the 2x2s about CSA happens within the fellowship and ministry on my website and on TMB. I posted about the RCC CSA articles in the years 2000 how the priests who committed crimes against children, the archbishops moved them to different area where they continued on with their evil deed to others children. I was hoping the overseers read the RCC mistakes and NOT to follow their evil doing by moving abusive workers to an another field or country, hoping they would REPENT and change their evil lifestyle. Well, many overseers followed the RCC leadership in the same way of taken care the CSA abuser problems, ship them to another field or country. Now, they must deal with the clean up MESS of these overseers mistakes. So, I have been following CSA situation since 1980s and watch how the 2x2s leadership deal with it. Dean B. fiasco changed how the 2x2 deals with CSA, sexual abused and so on. Lyle S. Overseer was the first worker that I know who took CSA situation very seriously, he had all workers from Texas took CSA courses on line. I talked to Lyle S. and to encourage him to talk to other overseers to jump on board with him to tackle CSA head on he said, he is just a small fish in this big pond. He tried but very slow progress! Resistance in many places. Doyle S. The overseer in Oregon just sent a CSA guideline for workers, church elders, and the friend to adhere to. Zero tolerance CSA policy. NO, CSA abuser allow to attend meetings where children are present. They can’t attend gospel meetings, but they can listen the workers gospel on the phone. CSA are improving much better today than in 1980s. People more aware of it and see how EVIL this is and it must be eradicated around the world. Thanks, be to God the 2x2s finally WOKE up! and doing something about it these days! It’s about time. Save the children. Welcome back Nathan. Tell me please why the Holy Spirit did not or could not tell you/them to protect the children back then. |
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Post by Dan on Jan 4, 2024 22:32:59 GMT -5
I agree, this is excellent. It is the kind of letter that I hope I would have been capable of writing, if I had still been a member. When I see statements, such as this "I am not stepping away from God I am stepping away from a religion.", I am very happy because I know that she is going to be more than okay, whatever her future holds. As a (happily) ex-member of almost 3 decades now, I am surprised at how much processing I have personally had to do over the 2X2 events of the past year. The above statements are all especially pertinent to the processing that I am still doing. I very much concur that CSA/SA is a premeditated evil. It is most definitely not a mistake, a momentary weakness, lapse, or a slip-up. It is thought-after-thought, thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of thoughts that are not only (largely) unchecked, but each succeeding thought pushes the boundaries of the preceding thought further and further. Until the unspeakable happens. It is a crime. Yes. But a crime against what? CSA/SA is somehow more than a crime against the laws of our land. (Strictly speaking, speeding in traffic is a crime.) I have long reflected on this verse: Matthew 12:31 King James Version "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Now, I am not a Bible literalist, nor am I Christian-exclusive. But the idea of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has always seemed a very profound one to me. What is it? Where is that line? When is it crossed? I have listened to all the arguments, commentaries, and interpretations of this through the years but never has a single one made me say "Nailed it." I wonder. I really wonder.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is simply denying the H.S.. Jesus said, "But when they shall bring you to deliver you up, do not premeditate beforehand what ye shall speak, neither think ye regarding it, but whatever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye, for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit" (Mark 13:11). A Christian in the know who refuses the intervention of the H.S. would be guilty of blasphemy. Only a Christian could commit that sin, but I highly doubt any of us would.
I understand the outrage of those who have decided to leave the Truth, but aren't they condemning all of the sincere Friends and Workers because of a few bad eggs? That's like taking your new car to a junk yard because the ashtray is full. There's an aura of arrogance in some of the letters, an "I'm too good for the church" attitude. They aren't saying they won't meet with abusers or those who covered-up abuse, they are completely disassociating themselves from all of their brothers and sisters in Christ. That's kinda sad.. I really doubt there's anything that the innocent Workers could do or say to satisfy some folks, many of whom have written apologetic letters, but it rectified nothing.
I'm guessing many are not leaving because they don't feel safe now, or because they don't think the problem can be fixed, but out of discuss. To me, that's like saying; "I won't associate with John, Andrew, Matthew, or even Mary because of the awful black stain Judas left on the ministry." In which case, Satan wins.
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nathan2
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Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Jan 4, 2024 23:03:55 GMT -5
~~ When I was in the work from 1986 -1993 we encountered CSA within the fellowship we had very little guideline on how to handle it. We told the victims to forgive the abusers, Pray to God and move on with their lives and NOT to bitter about. God will deal with the abusers according to His time. I was in Montana field and we recommend the abusers and victims of CSA to find a professional help, who was professing man so, they went to see him. After I left the worker 1993 in the year 2000 we few of us professing friends come together trying to inform, educate and warning the 2x2s about CSA happens within the fellowship and ministry on my website and on TMB. I posted about the RCC CSA articles in the years 2000 how the priests who committed crimes against children, the archbishops moved them to different area where they continued on with their evil deed to others children. I was hoping the overseers read the RCC mistakes and NOT to follow their evil doing by moving abusive workers to an another field or country, hoping they would REPENT and change their evil lifestyle. Well, many overseers followed the RCC leadership in the same way of taken care the CSA abuser problems, ship them to another field or country. Now, they must deal with the clean up MESS of these overseers mistakes. So, I have been following CSA situation since 1980s and watch how the 2x2s leadership deal with it. Dean B. fiasco changed how the 2x2 deals with CSA, sexual abused and so on. Lyle S. Overseer was the first worker that I know who took CSA situation very seriously, he had all workers from Texas took CSA courses on line. I talked to Lyle S. and to encourage him to talk to other overseers to jump on board with him to tackle CSA head on he said, he is just a small fish in this big pond. He tried but very slow progress! Resistance in many places. Doyle S. The overseer in Oregon just sent a CSA guideline for workers, church elders, and the friend to adhere to. Zero tolerance CSA policy. NO, CSA abuser allow to attend meetings where children are present. They can’t attend gospel meetings, but they can listen the workers gospel on the phone. CSA are improving much better today than in 1980s. People more aware of it and see how EVIL this is and it must be eradicated around the world. Thanks, be to God the 2x2s finally WOKE up! and doing something about it these days! It’s about time. Save the children. Welcome back Nathan. Tell me please why the Holy Spirit did not or could not tell you/them to protect the children back then. ~~~ Thanks, Verna… According to my own experience as a worker back in 1980s we/workers didn’t understand too much of the physical, mental and emotional pains, sufferings the victims had to deal with for life. We thought the CSA victims could forgive and forget and move on with their lives. After I left the work I did a lot of reading on CSA abusers and victims. What made the abusers do what they did? And the results of horrible and evil trauma the victims must endure for many years to come. Without professional help, they are doomed for life. Many workers had little knowledge about the CSA Victims brains are damaged because of the sexual assault done to them. Certain smells, or touch can trigger the memories the experiences of the abused. In the year 2000 I was moved by the Holy Spirit to ALERT the 2x2s how serious CSA is we must STOP it from spreading in the world. |
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Post by verna on Jan 4, 2024 23:09:12 GMT -5
Welcome back Nathan. Tell me please why the Holy Spirit did not or could not tell you/them to protect the children back then. ~~~ Thanks, Verna… According to my own experience as a worker back in 1980s we/workers didn’t understand too much of the physical, mental and emotional pains, sufferings the victims had to deal with for life. We thought the CSA victims could forgive and forget and move on with their lives. After I left the work I did a lot of reading on CSA abusers and victims. What made the abusers do what they did? And the results of horrible and evil trauma the victims must endure for many years to come. Without professional help, they are doomed for life. Many workers had little knowledge about the CSA Victims brains are damaged because of the sexual assault done to them. Certain smells, or touch can trigger the memories the experiences of the abused. In the year 2000 I was moved by the Holy Spirit to ALERT the 2x2s how serious CSA is we must STOP it from spreading in the world. I just find that the Holy Spirit has been SO ineffectual in this respect. Surely God must know the hurt caused to his own. I’m glad the Holy Spirit reached out to you but why not others? Almost as if the Holy Spirit does not exist. No? |
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Jan 4, 2024 23:39:03 GMT -5
~~~ Thanks, Verna… According to my own experience as a worker back in 1980s we/workers didn’t understand too much of the physical, mental and emotional pains, sufferings the victims had to deal with for life. We thought the CSA victims could forgive and forget and move on with their lives. After I left the work I did a lot of reading on CSA abusers and victims. What made the abusers do what they did? And the results of horrible and evil trauma the victims must endure for many years to come. Without professional help, they are doomed for life. Many workers had little knowledge about the CSA Victims brains are damaged because of the sexual assault done to them. Certain smells, or touch can trigger the memories the experiences of the abused. In the year 2000 I was moved by the Holy Spirit to ALERT the 2x2s how serious CSA is we must STOP it from spreading in the world. I just find that the Holy Spirit has been SO ineffectual in this respect. Surely God must know the hurt caused to his own. I’m glad the Holy Spirit reached out to you but why not others? Almost as if the Holy Spirit does not exist. No? ~~~ The friends, the worker, and myself were victims of the abused ourselves! That why, the Holy Spirit moved and used us to sound the trumpet and it wasn’t well received at first either, Many of the workers and friends NEVER had CSA experience themselves so, they couldn’t fully understand what was that all about! So, they just go on with their lives and ignored us. We were just a voice crying in the wilderness back in the year 2000. Thanks be to God, he heard the cries of the helpless children! And He something about it with DeanB gate just a pebble throws across the pond and the beautiful ripple effects…. . Here is what I have learned about CSA, is the work of Satan in destroying the soul/energy or the life force of a child for the long term. Many lost their childhood innocence and continue on through their entire adult life. Many victims will become abusers themselves! This is how Satan uses this method to pass/continue this Pure EVILNESS ALIVE from one generation to the next generation for centuries! This EVILNESS of CSA has to be STOPPED then Satan can’t ruin and destroy the children mind and soul. Once the mind is gone they don’t have right mind to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 4, 2024 23:48:45 GMT -5
I just find that the Holy Spirit has been SO ineffectual in this respect. Surely God must know the hurt caused to his own. I’m glad the Holy Spirit reached out to you but why not others? Almost as if the Holy Spirit does not exist. No? ~~~ The friends, the worker, and myself were victims of the abused ourselves! That why, the Holy Spirit moved and used us to sound the trumpet and it wasn’t well received at first either, Many of the workers and friends NEVER had CSA experience themselves so, they couldn’t fully understand what was that all about! So, they just go on with their lives and ignored us. We were just a voice crying in the wilderness back in the year 2000. Thanks be to God, he heard the cries of the helpless children! And He something about it with DeanB gate just a pebble throws across the pond and the beautiful ripple effects…. So the "ripples" were beautiful?  |
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
50%
Posts: 5,258
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Post by nathan2 on Jan 4, 2024 23:59:10 GMT -5
~~~ The friends, the worker, and myself were victims of the abused ourselves! That why, the Holy Spirit moved and used us to sound the trumpet and it wasn’t well received at first either, Many of the workers and friends NEVER had CSA experience themselves so, they couldn’t fully understand what was that all about! So, they just go on with their lives and ignored us. We were just a voice crying in the wilderness back in the year 2000. Thanks be to God, he heard the cries of the helpless children! And He something about it with DeanB gate just a pebble throws across the pond and the beautiful ripple effects…. So the "ripples" were beautiful? Yes, it made people stop! Look and pay attention what is this about. Once they see and understand what is going on then they want to DO something about it! We finally see the 2x2s are waken up and want to Eliminate CSA within our fellowship and ministry! This is God’s doing and a great miracle to defeat Satan, one of the 1000s ways, he uses to destroy lives and souls of the children. SAVE the children because they are the hope and future of God’s kingdom. |
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Post by Dan on Jan 5, 2024 0:02:45 GMT -5
~~~ Thanks, Verna… According to my own experience as a worker back in 1980s we/workers didn’t understand too much of the physical, mental and emotional pains, sufferings the victims had to deal with for life. We thought the CSA victims could forgive and forget and move on with their lives. After I left the work I did a lot of reading on CSA abusers and victims. What made the abusers do what they did? And the results of horrible and evil trauma the victims must endure for many years to come. Without professional help, they are doomed for life. Many workers had little knowledge about the CSA Victims brains are damaged because of the sexual assault done to them. Certain smells, or touch can trigger the memories the experiences of the abused. In the year 2000 I was moved by the Holy Spirit to ALERT the 2x2s how serious CSA is we must STOP it from spreading in the world. I just find that the Holy Spirit has been SO ineffectual in this respect. Surely God must know the hurt caused to his own. I’m glad the Holy Spirit reached out to you but why not others? Almost as if the Holy Spirit does not exist. No?
The H.S. comforts and convicts, but it does not instill obedience, that must emanate from every individual. Unfortunately, the flesh often over-rides the guidance of the Spirit and some fall to sin, bad judgement, and even perverted lust.
There is a point when God hears the cries, and I believe He steps in when He's had enough. I doubt that this whole blow-up just came to light by accident, everything being revealed is God's way of cleansing the church. His Spirit exist for those with ears to hear, but not everyone listens.
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Post by Mary on Jan 5, 2024 0:09:33 GMT -5
I agree, this is excellent. It is the kind of letter that I hope I would have been capable of writing, if I had still been a member. When I see statements, such as this "I am not stepping away from God I am stepping away from a religion.", I am very happy because I know that she is going to be more than okay, whatever her future holds. As a (happily) ex-member of almost 3 decades now, I am surprised at how much processing I have personally had to do over the 2X2 events of the past year. The above statements are all especially pertinent to the processing that I am still doing. I very much concur that CSA/SA is a premeditated evil. It is most definitely not a mistake, a momentary weakness, lapse, or a slip-up. It is thought-after-thought, thousands, hundreds-of-thousands of thoughts that are not only (largely) unchecked, but each succeeding thought pushes the boundaries of the preceding thought further and further. Until the unspeakable happens. It is a crime. Yes. But a crime against what? CSA/SA is somehow more than a crime against the laws of our land. (Strictly speaking, speeding in traffic is a crime.) I have long reflected on this verse: Matthew 12:31 King James Version "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." Now, I am not a Bible literalist, nor am I Christian-exclusive. But the idea of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has always seemed a very profound one to me. What is it? Where is that line? When is it crossed? I have listened to all the arguments, commentaries, and interpretations of this through the years but never has a single one made me say "Nailed it." I wonder. I really wonder. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is simply denying the H.S.. Jesus said, "But when they shall bring you to deliver you up, do not premeditate beforehand what ye shall speak, neither think ye regarding it, but whatever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye, for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit" (Mark 13:11). A Christian in the know who refuses the intervention of the H.S. would be guilty of blasphemy. Only a Christian could commit that sin, but I highly doubt any of us would. I understand the outrage of those who have decided to leave the Truth, but aren't they condemning all of the sincere Friends and Workers because of a few bad eggs? That's like taking your new car to a junk yard because the ashtray is full. There's an aura of arrogance in some of the letters, an "I'm too good for the church" attitude. They aren't saying they won't meet with abusers or those who covered-up abuse, they are completely disassociating themselves from all of their brothers and sisters in Christ. That's kinda sad.. I really doubt there's anything that the innocent Workers could do or say to satisfy some folks, many of whom have written apologetic letters, but it rectified nothing. I'm guessing many are not leaving because they don't feel safe now, or because they don't think the problem can be fixed, but out of discuss. To me, that's like saying; "I won't associate with John, Andrew, Matthew, or even Mary because of the awful black stain Judas left on the ministry." In which case, Satan wins.
First of all, they clearly said they were not leaving the truth, that's if you believe Jesus is the truth or some man made church who claims to be the truth. You've said you don't belong to the church - is that still correct? Nothing like the Judas scenario. Judas immediately left so to speak. He did not continue with the apostles, nor did the other apostles move him around, condemn those who spoke out against him or anything like the workers have done or not done to abusers. Judas was dealt with, abusers were not. |
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