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Post by rk0atheist on Nov 7, 2023 6:23:40 GMT -5
Ok do you want to start a new thread then? 😊
I think it would be best if you create the new Thread and give it a Subject name that is of interest to you.
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Post by snow on Nov 7, 2023 14:16:44 GMT -5
Faith like believe is a doing word, it is not an acceptance of something you have mentally affirmed before acting. It is the action itself. Hebrew people are function thinkers not form thinkers, so affirming in your mind about an existent God as the firet step in the process is exactly not what scripture is saying. Existent means its not imaginary, everything you have been describing is imaginary because of its absence of existence, this is why people become atheists, they can no longer rationalize mentally affirming something that's continuously absence in existence. Im not trying to offend you Mary but nothing you are saying makes sense scripturally when considering the ancient concepts behind the words you are using. All the terminology in your descriptions have come along later born in western though, the scripture is deeply Jewish and it would pay to understand the basic though process of these people so you can understand what they were saying. In todays language the word God in scripture means the unseen influence behind the cultures highest ideals. The only way this could be considered somewhat existent is within the action of the person attempting to apply the highest ideals. This person could identify as Christian or Atheist. If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about. As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 As an atheist I really don't believe or not believe in a god. They simply don't exist for me. It's hard to explain to someone who believes in a god just how much of a non starter belief is when it comes to any gods.
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Post by chuck on Nov 7, 2023 18:40:48 GMT -5
Faith like believe is a doing word, it is not an acceptance of something you have mentally affirmed before acting. It is the action itself. Hebrew people are function thinkers not form thinkers, so affirming in your mind about an existent God as the firet step in the process is exactly not what scripture is saying. Existent means its not imaginary, everything you have been describing is imaginary because of its absence of existence, this is why people become atheists, they can no longer rationalize mentally affirming something that's continuously absence in existence. Im not trying to offend you Mary but nothing you are saying makes sense scripturally when considering the ancient concepts behind the words you are using. All the terminology in your descriptions have come along later born in western though, the scripture is deeply Jewish and it would pay to understand the basic though process of these people so you can understand what they were saying. In todays language the word God in scripture means the unseen influence behind the cultures highest ideals. The only way this could be considered somewhat existent is within the action of the person attempting to apply the highest ideals. This person could identify as Christian or Atheist. If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about. As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 No, why would they?, they have rejected the idea of God that has been sold for the last 1000+ years. Most dont care to look and see the ideas of God they have been sold were not actually present in the culture Jesus came from, and who can blame them really...... Im just stating it how it is, you keep replying with doctrine and beliefs that just were not present in regard to the people and period of time leading up to Jesus's death. If you can't get a grasp of that there is no way one can see what the NT acutally is and where greek philosophy creeps into it and then has completely overtaken the concepts of the people represented in the OT. I would think and hope an Atheist would be more concerned about belonging to a gracious compassionate character. How they do that and express that is none of my business if they can do that without or need of religious beliefs who cares? Jesus said..... Matthew 22:36-40 [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. After reading this, how one can come to exclude a certain group of people based on their own mental affirmation based on things absent the people who wrote and influenced most of scripture is beyond rediculous. These verses sum up the entire intent of scripture, be a decent person. All the religious heaven bound and hell bound doctrine and rhetoric can be defined in one word. Manipulation. There is Zero evidence of places elsewhere called heaven or hell and why people are so concerned and spend so much time about going to one whilst avoiding the other is absurd when we cant even escape the hell we create around us. Heaven is anyplace that's not hell, for an atheists thats far away from religion.......And who am I or anyone else to say they're hell bound.......seriously......people need to start digging into the history of their beliefs instead of just inheriting them.
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Post by chuck on Nov 7, 2023 20:17:12 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 By the way, you say there's not one scripture affirming what I'm saying, yet I've just quoted a scripture that does. You said this quote: " If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about." And here's the scripture, and it's actually in Hebrews so it's addressed to them. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Don't you think Abraham had faith? Or Moses? They truly had faith in God and truly believed. As did others in the old testament. But just by their actions but by what they said also. Mary, you are applying your ideas and concepts onto people 2000+ years ago when you read. You and I do not think like they did, we have to make a concscious effort to try and look at it from their perspective. Im saying you are not doing that. To understand the era Abraham and Moses and the Hebrew writer represent you have to put on hold all your ideas and beliefs, this does not mean throw them away, it means make a conscious effort to park them over there somewhere......then go research and understand the culture an context surrounding the era in question and see how they viewed it. You need to sit in their position looking forward, not our position looking back, then you will see what the words on the page may have meant to them, then compare them with the things you have parked over there.
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Post by chuck on Nov 7, 2023 20:22:50 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 As an atheist I really don't believe or not believe in a god. They simply don't exist for me. It's hard to explain to someone who believes in a god just how much of a non starter belief is when it comes to any gods. Your explanations only make sense after we have been knocked off our donkey.
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Post by Dan on Nov 7, 2023 22:42:01 GMT -5
I'd disagree... We are saved by Grace through Faith. If grace could be earned, who needs Christ?
Grace is the unearned, unmerited favor of God.. No sinner can earn their way into heaven, that belief nullifies the need for a Savior.
Okay, please explain your understanding of what grace is and what is its purpose!
Unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification, a virtue coming from God. In other words, we are sanctified by Christ answering for our sins. We are saved by the grace of God and can't earn salvation ourselves.
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Post by Dan on Nov 7, 2023 22:44:41 GMT -5
Can you please sort this so that what you say isn't mixed up with what I'm saying Thank you.
No.. I answered your comments in red print, so it shouldn't be confusing or mixed up with what you wrote?
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Post by xna on Nov 7, 2023 22:50:45 GMT -5
Can you please sort this so that what you say isn't mixed up with what I'm saying Thank you.
No.. I answered your comments in red print, so it shouldn't be confusing or mixed up with what you wrote?
Dan I think maryhig uses the Tap-A-Talk app on her phone. With that app you do not see colored texts. I only see colored text when viewing on a computer web browser.
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Post by Dan on Nov 7, 2023 23:15:43 GMT -5
Can you please sort this so that what you say isn't mixed up with what I'm saying Thank you.
Sorry, as xna pointed out, you probably don't get colors, so in that case it would appear as a confusing mess.. I'll just separate my replies to your comments here;
Where did Jesus say not to worship idols? If he didn't say it, it's not the truth. So its okay to worship idols? Some things are implied, and Jesus did say "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Remission means; the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty.. So why was Jesus sacrificed?
Jesus overcame Satan in the wilderness long before his crucifixion. He suffer and died to defeat something he was never guilty of, that being the sins of believers.
Isaiah 53 says "The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all".. "Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin".. "He shall bear their iniquities". How do you spin that to mean something other than what it says?
"He bare the sin of many" does not mean the sinful acts against him personally, it means the sins we commit everyday
Part of his life includes how and why he died, believing in the toughest thing Jesus experienced and why it was necessary is part of believing in his entire life.
You don't understand salvation because you've denied the necessity of a Savior! Jesus was delivered up as a sacrifice just as it was prophesied. If he had failed, you would be guilty of sin and condemned. He surrendered his life as a ransom for yours.
Calvary was Grace, the unmerited favor we don't deserve and didn't earn.
Reconciliation includes recognizing what the Savior did to save us, preaching the word and being sinless didn't blot-out sin, the cross did. If you exempt Calvary, the gospel isn't 'good news', its just the old covenant reiterated.
Its not a false gospel to believe our sins were atoned for, we are alive in Christ because we are no longer dead to sin. That doesn't give us a license to sin, it just means that when we do, its no longer a death sentence.
Where did Jesus say that our sins remain if we break the law? He removed the curse of the law, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13). I have just one last question for you.. Assuming you've sinned, and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23), how do you plan to inherit eternal life?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 8, 2023 1:50:52 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 No, why would they?, they have rejected the idea of God that has been sold for the last 1000+ years. Most dont care to look and see the ideas of God they have been sold were not actually present in the culture Jesus came from, and who can blame them really...... Im just stating it how it is, you keep replying with doctrine and beliefs that just were not present in regard to the people and period of time leading up to Jesus's death. If you can't get a grasp of that there is no way one can see what the NT acutally is and where greek philosophy creeps into it and then has completely overtaken the concepts of the people represented in the OT. I would think and hope an Atheist would be more concerned about belonging to a gracious compassionate character. How they do that and express that is none of my business if they can do that without or need of religious beliefs who cares? Jesus said..... Matthew 22:36-40 [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. After reading this, how one can come to exclude a certain group of people based on their own mental affirmation based on things absent the people who wrote and influenced most of scripture is beyond rediculous. These verses sum up the entire intent of scripture, be a decent person. All the religious heaven bound and hell bound doctrine and rhetoric can be defined in one word. Manipulation. There is Zero evidence of places elsewhere called heaven or hell and why people are so concerned and spend so much time about going to one whilst avoiding the other is absurd when we cant even escape the hell we create around us. Heaven is anyplace that's not hell, for an atheists thats far away from religion.......And who am I or anyone else to say they're hell bound.......seriously......people need to start digging into the history of their beliefs instead of just inheriting them. For a start you've answered your own question! You seem say atheists can belong to God even if they don't believe in him. Then you quote Jesus You've said this Quote: "After reading this, how one can come to exclude a certain group of people based on their own mental affirmation based on things absent the people who wrote and influenced most of scripture is beyond rediculous. These verses sum up the entire intent of scripture, be a decent person." And in those verses is this Matthew 22:36 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Which goes against what you are saying because atheists don't believe in any God!
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Post by maryhig on Nov 8, 2023 1:53:39 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 No, why would they?, they have rejected the idea of God that has been sold for the last 1000+ years. Most dont care to look and see the ideas of God they have been sold were not actually present in the culture Jesus came from, and who can blame them really...... Im just stating it how it is, you keep replying with doctrine and beliefs that just were not present in regard to the people and period of time leading up to Jesus's death. If you can't get a grasp of that there is no way one can see what the NT acutally is and where greek philosophy creeps into it and then has completely overtaken the concepts of the people represented in the OT. I would think and hope an Atheist would be more concerned about belonging to a gracious compassionate character. How they do that and express that is none of my business if they can do that without or need of religious beliefs who cares? Jesus said..... Matthew 22:36-40 [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. After reading this, how one can come to exclude a certain group of people based on their own mental affirmation based on things absent the people who wrote and influenced most of scripture is beyond rediculous. These verses sum up the entire intent of scripture, be a decent person. All the religious heaven bound and hell bound doctrine and rhetoric can be defined in one word. Manipulation. There is Zero evidence of places elsewhere called heaven or hell and why people are so concerned and spend so much time about going to one whilst avoiding the other is absurd when we cant even escape the hell we create around us. Heaven is anyplace that's not hell, for an atheists thats far away from religion.......And who am I or anyone else to say they're hell bound.......seriously......people need to start digging into the history of their beliefs instead of just inheriting them. And you've got me completely wrong, I don't agree with telling people that they are heaven and hell bound. That's not my call. I always say that we create our own hell in the here and now and leave the rest to God. You've got me completely wrong in a lot of things you have said there.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 8, 2023 1:59:02 GMT -5
By the way, you say there's not one scripture affirming what I'm saying, yet I've just quoted a scripture that does. You said this quote: " If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about." And here's the scripture, and it's actually in Hebrews so it's addressed to them. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Don't you think Abraham had faith? Or Moses? They truly had faith in God and truly believed. As did others in the old testament. But just by their actions but by what they said also. Mary, you are applying your ideas and concepts onto people 2000+ years ago when you read. You and I do not think like they did, we have to make a concscious effort to try and look at it from their perspective. Im saying you are not doing that. To understand the era Abraham and Moses and the Hebrew writer represent you have to put on hold all your ideas and beliefs, this does not mean throw them away, it means make a conscious effort to park them over there somewhere......then go research and understand the culture an context surrounding the era in question and see how they viewed it. You need to sit in their position looking forward, not our position looking back, then you will see what the words on the page may have meant to them, then compare them with the things you have parked over there. No you need the indwelling Spirit of God to understand Abraham and Moses, because they were men led by the Spirit. The same Spirit that was in them, is in those who are truly born anew of God now. And he will teach us all things. And we don't put on hold anything, we are to put away our old ways and live by the will of God and turn from sin. What do you mean by put on hold? That just sounds wrong!
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Post by maryhig on Nov 8, 2023 3:04:43 GMT -5
As an atheist I really don't believe or not believe in a god. They simply don't exist for me. It's hard to explain to someone who believes in a god just how much of a non starter belief is when it comes to any gods. Your explanations only make sense after we have been knocked off our donkey. What does that mean?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 8, 2023 3:06:06 GMT -5
Can you please sort this so that what you say isn't mixed up with what I'm saying Thank you.
No.. I answered your comments in red print, so it shouldn't be confusing or mixed up with what you wrote?
Yes I have the tapatalk app, so I don't see the different colours. Maybe that's what causes confusion sometimes as people probably think that I can. Sorry about that.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 8, 2023 3:44:56 GMT -5
Can you please sort this so that what you say isn't mixed up with what I'm saying Thank you.
Sorry, as xna pointed out, you probably don't get colors, so in that case it would appear as a confusing mess.. I'll just separate my replies to your comments here;
Where did Jesus say not to worship idols? If he didn't say it, it's not the truth. So its okay to worship idols? Some things are implied, and Jesus did say "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Remission means; the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty.. So why was Jesus sacrificed?
Jesus overcame Satan in the wilderness long before his crucifixion. He suffer and died to defeat something he was never guilty of, that being the sins of believers.
Isaiah 53 says "The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all".. "Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin".. "He shall bear their iniquities". How do you spin that to mean something other than what it says?
"He bare the sin of many"
Part of his life includes how and why he died, believing in the toughest thing Jesus experienced and why it was necessary is part of believing in his entire life.
You don't understand salvation because you've denied the necessity of a Savior! Jesus was delivered up as a sacrifice just as it was prophesied. If he had failed, you would be guilty of sin and condemned. He surrendered his life as a ransom for yours.
Calvary was Grace, the unmerited favor we don't deserve and didn't earn.
Reconciliation includes recognizing what the Savior did to save us, preaching the word and being sinless didn't blot-out sin, the cross did. If you exempt Calvary, the gospel isn't 'good news', its just the old covenant reiterated.
Its not a false gospel to believe our sins were atoned for, we are alive in Christ because we are no longer dead to sin. That doesn't give us a license to sin, it just means that when we do, its no longer a death sentence.
Where did Jesus say that our sins remain if we break the law? He removed the curse of the law , "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13). I have just one last question for you.. Assuming you've sinned, and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23), how do you plan to inherit eternal life?
It's going to take be a while to go through that, but one thing you said I would like to point out firstly is this You said this "does not mean the sinful acts against him personally, it means the sins we commit everyday" No baring the sins of many does mean the sinful acts against him personally and the sins we commit everyday. Because if we carry on wilfully sinning then we crucify the Lord afresh and put him to an open shame. If it wasn't the sins against him personally at that time, then he wouldn't have asked God to forgive them, and he wouldn't had said to Pilate that the Jews have committed the greater sin in handing him over to be killed. And he bore those sins, suffered them all, in his daily life and also being crucified and he overcame the devil in doing so, through love, forgiveness and mercy and by the strength of God. You said this "Where did Jesus say that our sins remain if we break the law? He removed the curse of the law" James said if we break one law we break them all. There is no way you can carry on living as you please, breaking the commandments of God and carry on being saved. That's just not the truth. James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. And Jesus said this (below) And a worker of iniquity is one who doesn't obey the word of God and to disobey God is to disobey his commandments. And Jesus also said, to the pharasees, "if you say you see then your sin remains", that goes for us too. Unless we truly repent and turn from those sins and live by the will of God. The word of God doesn't change. Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heave and ifn. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. You said this "He removed the curse of the law , "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13)" Christ becoming a curse for us is him coming into this sinful flesh for us, this flesh is a curse and and he came here for us to bare witness to the truth to us. Redeeming us by the word of God, through faith by the grace of God. And the gift of God is to hear his word, and once we believe, repent, have faith and obey the word of God then he will bless us with his Spirit. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ....And love fulfills the law, and if we truly love God and others, then we won't break his commandments. But we will follow Jesus and obey them. Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. I'll get back to the rest of your post later thank you.
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2023 13:20:37 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 No, why would they?, they have rejected the idea of God that has been sold for the last 1000+ years. Most dont care to look and see the ideas of God they have been sold were not actually present in the culture Jesus came from, and who can blame them really...... Im just stating it how it is, you keep replying with doctrine and beliefs that just were not present in regard to the people and period of time leading up to Jesus's death. If you can't get a grasp of that there is no way one can see what the NT acutally is and where greek philosophy creeps into it and then has completely overtaken the concepts of the people represented in the OT. I would think and hope an Atheist would be more concerned about belonging to a gracious compassionate character. How they do that and express that is none of my business if they can do that without or need of religious beliefs who cares? Jesus said..... Matthew 22:36-40 [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. After reading this, how one can come to exclude a certain group of people based on their own mental affirmation based on things absent the people who wrote and influenced most of scripture is beyond rediculous. These verses sum up the entire intent of scripture, be a decent person. All the religious heaven bound and hell bound doctrine and rhetoric can be defined in one word. Manipulation. There is Zero evidence of places elsewhere called heaven or hell and why people are so concerned and spend so much time about going to one whilst avoiding the other is absurd when we cant even escape the hell we create around us. Heaven is anyplace that's not hell, for an atheists thats far away from religion.......And who am I or anyone else to say they're hell bound.......seriously......people need to start digging into the history of their beliefs instead of just inheriting them. If an atheist believed there was a caring compassionate god out there then they wouldn't be an atheist would they. We depend upon ourselves to be caring and compassionate and we don't need to 'belong' to some invisible man/god in order to do that. Having said that, if there is a God that can be proved to exist, yes I would want it to be a compassionate and caring god. If it wasn't it wouldn't be worth 'belonging' to. So far it's not a decision I have to make because I haven't seen evidence that any exist.
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Post by snow on Nov 8, 2023 13:23:49 GMT -5
Your explanations only make sense after we have been knocked off our donkey. What does that mean? I would like to know too maryhig
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Post by chuck on Nov 11, 2023 7:09:10 GMT -5
No, why would they?, they have rejected the idea of God that has been sold for the last 1000+ years. Most dont care to look and see the ideas of God they have been sold were not actually present in the culture Jesus came from, and who can blame them really...... Im just stating it how it is, you keep replying with doctrine and beliefs that just were not present in regard to the people and period of time leading up to Jesus's death. If you can't get a grasp of that there is no way one can see what the NT acutally is and where greek philosophy creeps into it and then has completely overtaken the concepts of the people represented in the OT. I would think and hope an Atheist would be more concerned about belonging to a gracious compassionate character. How they do that and express that is none of my business if they can do that without or need of religious beliefs who cares? Jesus said..... Matthew 22:36-40 [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. After reading this, how one can come to exclude a certain group of people based on their own mental affirmation based on things absent the people who wrote and influenced most of scripture is beyond rediculous. These verses sum up the entire intent of scripture, be a decent person. All the religious heaven bound and hell bound doctrine and rhetoric can be defined in one word. Manipulation. There is Zero evidence of places elsewhere called heaven or hell and why people are so concerned and spend so much time about going to one whilst avoiding the other is absurd when we cant even escape the hell we create around us. Heaven is anyplace that's not hell, for an atheists thats far away from religion.......And who am I or anyone else to say they're hell bound.......seriously......people need to start digging into the history of their beliefs instead of just inheriting them. If an atheist believed there was a caring compassionate god out there then they wouldn't be an atheist would they. We depend upon ourselves to be caring and compassionate and we don't need to 'belong' to some invisible man/god in order to do that. Having said that, if there is a God that can be proved to exist, yes I would want it to be a compassionate and caring god. If it wasn't it wouldn't be worth 'belonging' to. So far it's not a decision I have to make because I haven't seen evidence that any exist. "God out there" This type of language highlights my point exactly, you talk about the word G O D exactly the same as religious folk, the only difference is you are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. I believe the idea of a existent "God out there" makes no sense. Repeat this over and over in your mind "God talking is people doing things..." then try to reconcile that with the idea you conceptualise of the word spelt G O D and that idea of God talking.... Same word but two totally different concepts......I argue the trajectory of scripture goes away from the idea you have of the word spelt G O D and therefore an existent "G O D out there" is a fallacy regardless wether you believe it or not.
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Post by snow on Nov 11, 2023 15:11:53 GMT -5
If an atheist believed there was a caring compassionate god out there then they wouldn't be an atheist would they. We depend upon ourselves to be caring and compassionate and we don't need to 'belong' to some invisible man/god in order to do that. Having said that, if there is a God that can be proved to exist, yes I would want it to be a compassionate and caring god. If it wasn't it wouldn't be worth 'belonging' to. So far it's not a decision I have to make because I haven't seen evidence that any exist. "God out there" This type of language highlights my point exactly, you talk about the word G O D exactly the same as religious folk, the only difference is you are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. I believe the idea of a existent "God out there" makes no sense. Repeat this over and over in your mind "God talking is people doing things..." then try to reconcile that with the idea you conceptualise of the word spelt G O D and that idea of God talking.... Same word but two totally different concepts......I argue the trajectory of scripture goes away from the idea you have of the word spelt G O D and therefore an existent "G O D out there" is a fallacy regardless wether you believe it or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand from you is that you see G O D as us? That there is nothing but G O D? I don't label existence as G O D so maybe that's the difference?
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Post by chuck on Nov 11, 2023 20:13:46 GMT -5
"God out there" This type of language highlights my point exactly, you talk about the word G O D exactly the same as religious folk, the only difference is you are on the opposite end of the same spectrum. I believe the idea of a existent "God out there" makes no sense. Repeat this over and over in your mind "God talking is people doing things..." then try to reconcile that with the idea you conceptualise of the word spelt G O D and that idea of God talking.... Same word but two totally different concepts......I argue the trajectory of scripture goes away from the idea you have of the word spelt G O D and therefore an existent "G O D out there" is a fallacy regardless wether you believe it or not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand from you is that you see G O D as us? That there is nothing but G O D? I don't label existence as G O D so maybe that's the difference? I see G O D as a word to describe the highest ideals in our lives. And I think this is what the wisdom in scripture is all about and not some single existent entity that manipulates outcomes.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 11, 2023 23:54:41 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand from you is that you see G O D as us? That there is nothing but G O D? I don't label existence as G O D so maybe that's the difference? I see G O D as a word to describe the highest ideals in our lives. And I think this is what the wisdom in scripture is all about and not some single existent entity that manipulates outcomes. Why do you need a word to describe those highest ideals? Are these high ideals how decent people live anyway, without recourse to superstitious mumbo jumbo?
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Post by chuck on Nov 12, 2023 2:17:20 GMT -5
I see G O D as a word to describe the highest ideals in our lives. And I think this is what the wisdom in scripture is all about and not some single existent entity that manipulates outcomes. Why do you need a word to describe those highest ideals? Are these high ideals how decent people live anyway, without recourse to superstitious mumbo jumbo? No one said you do. Thats just how it was, same principles still today but if you use different language around it good for you.
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Post by snow on Nov 12, 2023 18:03:09 GMT -5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand from you is that you see G O D as us? That there is nothing but G O D? I don't label existence as G O D so maybe that's the difference? I see G O D as a word to describe the highest ideals in our lives. And I think this is what the wisdom in scripture is all about and not some single existent entity that manipulates outcomes. Okay, it's a word for our ideals. I'm not sure we need a word for that, at least not one which such negative and triggering connotations like the word God. I am having a hard time believing that the scriptures were just talking about our highest ideals though. You've lost me there. The Hebrews worshipped many Gods at one point and then they made Yahweh their only god. Doesn't that point to a single existent entity that they felt manipulated outcomes? What am I missing?
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Post by chuck on Nov 13, 2023 2:36:07 GMT -5
I see G O D as a word to describe the highest ideals in our lives. And I think this is what the wisdom in scripture is all about and not some single existent entity that manipulates outcomes. Okay, it's a word for our ideals. I'm not sure we need a word for that, at least not one which such negative and triggering connotations like the word God. I am having a hard time believing that the scriptures were just talking about our highest ideals though. You've lost me there. The Hebrews worshipped many Gods at one point and then they made Yahweh their only god. Doesn't that point to a single existent entity that they felt manipulated outcomes? What am I missing? The superstition was their way of explaining the unexplainable no doubt, the wisdom within the superstitious story remains the same. The trajectory goes away from "existent Gods or God" Simplistic trajectory Abram God lived up in the sky (sun/moon) Moses God lived in a tent David God lived in the temple Jesus God living flesh Paul God lives in you Given the trajectory of the concept of God its hard to see how one could conclude God was still thought of as an an existent entity.. You don't have to use any word if you dont want to, That's just what is at the heart of the word G O D though when you strip away all the superstitious baggage in my opinion.
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2023 13:17:49 GMT -5
Okay, it's a word for our ideals. I'm not sure we need a word for that, at least not one which such negative and triggering connotations like the word God. I am having a hard time believing that the scriptures were just talking about our highest ideals though. You've lost me there. The Hebrews worshipped many Gods at one point and then they made Yahweh their only god. Doesn't that point to a single existent entity that they felt manipulated outcomes? What am I missing? The superstition was their way of explaining the unexplainable no doubt, the wisdom within the superstitious story remains the same. The trajectory goes away from "existent Gods or God" Simplistic trajectory Abram God lived up in the sky (sun/moon) Moses God lived in a tent David God lived in the temple Jesus God living flesh Paul God lives in you Given the trajectory of the concept of God its hard to see how one could conclude God was still thought of as an an existent entity.. You don't have to use any word if you dont want to, That's just what is at the heart of the word G O D though when you strip away all the superstitious baggage in my opinion. Yes I can see that. Paul's Jesus was more like the Christos defined in earlier religions. He rarely stressed the flesh and blood Jesus, just the spiritual.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 15, 2023 22:43:56 GMT -5
It looks like this discussion has made great progress on what's proper church structure.
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Post by Dan on Nov 16, 2023 1:18:04 GMT -5
It looks like this discussion has made great progress on what's proper church structure.
Its good we got it all straightened out .. Outside of the original post, we have 4 pages of
How its structured is only as good as the people assigned responsibilities.. One fox in the hen house can undermine everything.. When safeguards, accountability, and oversight are lacking, chaos ensues.
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