help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Oct 28, 2023 2:15:20 GMT -5
Because the 2x2 Church has wandered in the wilderness for more than 120 years, maybe it is time to adopt a management structure that has been used by the majority of Christian Churches ,with great success. Without such a structure it provides an environment for criminal activity and wrong doing to prosper. Plenty of good models they could use. Try this one, personally I like the Congregational Model. www.vancopayments.com/egiving/blog/church-leadership-structure-models
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Post by maryhig on Oct 28, 2023 5:34:33 GMT -5
Because the 2x2 Church has wandered in the wilderness for more than 120 years, maybe it is time to adopt a management structure that has been used by the majority of Christian Churches ,with great success. Without such a structure it provides an environment for criminal activity and wrong doing to prosper. Plenty of good models they could use. Try this one, personally I like the Congregational Model. www.vancopayments.com/egiving/blog/church-leadership-structure-modelsI've got the proper church structure. Christ Jesus is the head, and we all follow him in the way he taught us to live and walk as he walked. Denominations are man made, there is only one way, and that's the way of Jesus. And one church and they are those who truly follow him in word and deed and bare witness to the truth as he did. There is no other way and no true denomination, and those who truly follow Christ are at one with him and the father, living stones, they are the church, they are the temple of God that God dwells within their hearts. Jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice, and they follow me" ....not any man made denomination.
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Post by passingby on Oct 28, 2023 13:48:48 GMT -5
Bravo! WELL SAID Maryhig Stand by that. As Jesus said, His brothers and sisters are so in Spirit and in Truth. No denomination needed and no denominational structure is going to legislate or organize or filter the clever and opportunistic bad actors and con men out. As many denominations have found out in spite of their best efforts, including denominational 2x2's, which most ex's seem to have been. And some still want to be - based on the OP
Don't get me wrong, I am Not a Christiaan, I think Christianity is a man made construct, but never the less I understand perfectly where you're coming from. Imo, you've exactly voiced what any true Christian who understands the New Testament's message would/should personally believe and hold to, inside and out.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 29, 2023 9:18:30 GMT -5
Bravo! WELL SAID Maryhig Stand by that. As Jesus said, His brothers and sisters are so in Spirit and in Truth. No denomination needed and no denominational structure is going to legislate or organize or filter the clever and opportunistic bad actors and con men out. As many denominations have found out in spite of their best efforts, including denominational 2x2's, which most ex's seem to have been. And some still want to be - based on the OP Don't get me wrong, I am Not a Christiaan, I think Christianity is a man made construct, but never the less I understand perfectly where you're coming from. Imo, you've exactly voiced what any true Christian who understands the New Testament's message would/should personally believe and hold to, inside and out. I'm not a Christian either in the way that Christianity is preached today. I call myself a follower of Christ because that's what I am. Not a follower of Constantine's version, or Calvin's version or anyone else's version of Christianity come to that. There's only one way, and that's the way of Jesus, and that's it. He taught enough, there no need for add ons and "extras" that many churches have added on, we have the way lived out perfectly in Jesus and we follow him. My husband said something good in our meeting this morning. He said Jesus wanted to gather many of the Jews but they would not as seen here in these verses. Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! And my husband saw that as a hen cares for her chicks, they follow her around everywhere, where the hen goes, the chicks go. Until it's time for them to go on their own. And he saw that this is like what Jesus said, he wants to gather us in, and if we are truly gathered in and belong to him, then we will follow him, and we will do as he teaches us to do. And when we are strong enough in God, we to will be able to live it out as he did. And just as the chick grows to be the image of the hen, so does those who follow Jesus become in the image of him. No denomination needed. Just the love of God and the life of Christ within, and we follow him in the way. He's the door, he's the way in, there is no other way. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me.
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Post by xna on Oct 29, 2023 9:29:14 GMT -5
I'm not a Christian either in the way that Christianity is preached today. I call myself a follower of Christ because that's what I am. Not a follower of Constantine's version, or Calvin's version or anyone else's version of Christianity come to that. Some of the 2x2 workers also preached they didn't want to be called Christian, but the bible uses that word. . Acts 11:26 KJV And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 26:28 KJV Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 29, 2023 9:59:18 GMT -5
I'm not a Christian either in the way that Christianity is preached today. I call myself a follower of Christ because that's what I am. Not a follower of Constantine's version, or Calvin's version or anyone else's version of Christianity come to that. Some of the 2x2 workers also preached they didn't want to be called Christian, but the bible uses that word. . Acts 11:26 KJV And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 26:28 KJV Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.But the Christian of Peter and Paul's time isn't the same Christian of today. Thats why I don't call myself a Christian. Because the way has been changed by the likes of Constantine and Calvin etc.
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Post by Mary on Oct 29, 2023 13:52:40 GMT -5
Bravo! WELL SAID Maryhig Stand by that. As Jesus said, His brothers and sisters are so in Spirit and in Truth. No denomination needed and no denominational structure is going to legislate or organize or filter the clever and opportunistic bad actors and con men out. As many denominations have found out in spite of their best efforts, including denominational 2x2's, which most ex's seem to have been. And some still want to be - based on the OP Don't get me wrong, I am Not a Christiaan, I think Christianity is a man made construct, but never the less I understand perfectly where you're coming from. Imo, you've exactly voiced what any true Christian who understands the New Testament's message would/should personally believe and hold to, inside and out. I'm not a Christian either in the way that Christianity is preached today. I call myself a follower of Christ because that's what I am. Not a follower of Constantine's version, or Calvin's version or anyone else's version of Christianity come to that. There's only one way, and that's the way of Jesus, and that's it. He taught enough, there no need for add ons and "extras" that many churches have added on, we have the way lived out perfectly in Jesus and we follow him. My husband said something good in our meeting this morning. He said Jesus wanted to gather many of the Jews but they would not as seen here in these verses. Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! And my husband saw that as a hen cares for her chicks, they follow her around everywhere, where the hen goes, the chicks go. Until it's time for them to go on their own. And he saw that this is like what Jesus said, he wants to gather us in, and if we are truly gathered in and belong to him, then we will follow him, and we will do as he teaches us to do. And when we are strong enough in God, we to will be able to live it out as he did. And just as the chick grows to be the image of the hen, so does those who follow Jesus become in the image of him. No denomination needed. Just the love of God and the life of Christ within, and we follow him in the way. He's the door, he's the way in, there is no other way. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. The 2x2 workers claim they are not a denomination because they have no name or building. The truth is they are a denomination, the same as your group is a denomination. You have your own set of beliefs. Oh but we follow the Bible. They all say that. You have organized meetings and meeting times. Your group is a break away from the 2x2 workers church which like all churches traces back to Constantine. All churches have changed doctrine on the way which was what Luther was all about. The Bible says go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Your group does not go into all the world. It consists of a few small grous in the UK who have clung to Edward Cooney's teachings since he was ex communicated from the larger group. Like the 2x2s mostly family members of those who remained. Am I understanding you right that you believe that we are saved by our own works and how good we live? Are the millions of Christians 'saved' according to you or heading in the wrong direction? I don't know where you get the idea that Christians believe they can keep on knowingly sin. Christians preach that you can't and the fruit of the Spirit. If we just want to follow a good man then why not follow Ghandi or any other Guru, why Jesus?
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Post by matisse on Oct 29, 2023 15:47:02 GMT -5
In my experience, as someone B&R, and indoctrinated from an early age, a big part of the allure of the 2x2's hinges on the notion that it stands alone, and is "impossible without God." Following a "known" congregational model would be death to that allure.
Long after I had lost my faith in the F&W way, and even long after I had lost my faith in a supernatural deity, this "stands alone" concept stood in the way of me putting the experience to rest. It "shimmered", unexplained. When I finally came across "The Secret Sect", learned about the origins, and saw how the group fits into a bigger picture of the evolution of Christian Sects, the group immediately shrank to size, and took its place as just one more Christian sect of many.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 29, 2023 15:54:13 GMT -5
In my experience, as someone B&R, and indoctrinated from an early age, a big part of the allure of the 2x2's hinges on the notion that it stands alone, and is "impossible without God." Following a "known" congregational model would be death to that allure. Long after I had lost my faith in the F&W way, and even long after I had lost my faith in a supernatural deity, this "stands alone" concept stood in the way of me putting the experience to rest. It "shimmered", unexplained. When I finally came across "The Secret Sect", learned about the origins, and saw how the group fits into a bigger picture of the evolution of Christian Sects, the group immediately shrank to size, and took its place as just one more Christian sect of many. Ditto
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Post by snow on Oct 29, 2023 17:13:42 GMT -5
I know growing up we were told to put non denominational by the question Religion. Christian was a no no. Now much to my surprise 2x2's call themselves Christians. Which of course makes sense since they all have decided to follow a guy named Christ.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 29, 2023 17:55:05 GMT -5
While I was still professing and some years before I left I had a conversation with a senior female worker and her offsider at our place. I had been reading about different people and there was one group living on a remote island who had a history living peacefully with one another. i said something along the lines of they seemed like they had the love of god in them and she replied that god knows his own etc. Which I came to realize later was the standard line when awkward questions are asked about good people living where no workers have been. My reply though must have really peed her off as i then asked her if that was the case then why did we need workers such as herself and her Matthew 10 stuff. The workers have both exalted themselves and made a rod for their own backs with their religious nonsense.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 29, 2023 23:01:32 GMT -5
I'm not a Christian either in the way that Christianity is preached today. I call myself a follower of Christ because that's what I am. Not a follower of Constantine's version, or Calvin's version or anyone else's version of Christianity come to that. There's only one way, and that's the way of Jesus, and that's it. He taught enough, there no need for add ons and "extras" that many churches have added on, we have the way lived out perfectly in Jesus and we follow him. My husband said something good in our meeting this morning. He said Jesus wanted to gather many of the Jews but they would not as seen here in these verses. Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! And my husband saw that as a hen cares for her chicks, they follow her around everywhere, where the hen goes, the chicks go. Until it's time for them to go on their own. And he saw that this is like what Jesus said, he wants to gather us in, and if we are truly gathered in and belong to him, then we will follow him, and we will do as he teaches us to do. And when we are strong enough in God, we to will be able to live it out as he did. And just as the chick grows to be the image of the hen, so does those who follow Jesus become in the image of him. No denomination needed. Just the love of God and the life of Christ within, and we follow him in the way. He's the door, he's the way in, there is no other way. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the father except through me. The 2x2 workers claim they are not a denomination because they have no name or building. The truth is they are a denomination, the same as your group is a denomination. You have your own set of beliefs. Oh but we follow the Bible. They all say that. You have organized meetings and meeting times. Your group is a break away from the 2x2 workers church which like all churches traces back to Constantine. All churches have changed doctrine on the way which was what Luther was all about. The Bible says go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Your group does not go into all the world. It consists of a few small grous in the UK who have clung to Edward Cooney's teachings since he was ex communicated from the larger group. Like the 2x2s mostly family members of those who remained. Am I understanding you right that you believe that we are saved by our own works and how good we live? Are the millions of Christians 'saved' according to you or heading in the wrong direction? I don't know where you get the idea that Christians believe they can keep on knowingly sin. Christians preach that you can't and the fruit of the Spirit. If we just want to follow a good man then why not follow Ghandi or any other Guru, why Jesus? Mary, the whole world was doing wrong except for Noah, so don't judge small groups. You don't even know us and you have never attended our meetings to see what they are like. We do as it is taught in the Bible with no add ons whatsoever. And you seem to have a real hang up about Edward Cooney, we haven't "clung" to his teachings at all! We read the Bible and follow Jesus as he taught in it. All churches may well have changed the doctrine but we haven't. We gather together and read the scriptures and speak about them the way they did in the Bible with no add ons. How many people have you been out preaching to Mary? You shouldn't judge us because again you don't know us. It doesn't say we have to go out preaching to thousands Jesus says to go out to all the world, that's people in the world. So how do you know how many people in the world I'm speaking the gospel to in my daily life if you don't know me? And how do you know how many I'm speaking to online? Could I not be speaking to a lot of people online? Jesus said, where 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name, there I'll be in the midst. We don't need to speak to thousands of people, and there's plenty of false ministers that do that with their false money raising gospel which gets them nowhere. God will guide me in what I am to do daily, but you judge away if you feel you must. And I'm being saved by the life of Jesus not his death, but I've gone over this with you many times, so there's no point in going there again And I don't know how many are being saved, do you? That's up to God. And why just Christians? Do you believe that it's only people who believe as you do that will be saved? Only God knows the depths of our hearts, no man can judge others like that! And as for people believing they can knowingly sin, if people believe in once saved always saved then that means just that. Because I've spoken to many who believe no matter what they do they can't be separated from God because they're saved, even if they wilfully sin, this goes directly against the teachings of Jesus. Once saved always saved is a false teaching. We are being saved through faith by the grace of God, our past sins forgiven, those that we did in ignorance and now we are being judged on what we do in our daily lives, we are more accountable now that we know God, God forgives ignorance. And we remain being saved,.. If ... We live by the will of God and follow Jesus, Jesus himself says that he will tell workers of iniquity to depart from him. Jesus says it's those who live by the will of the father who enter into the kingdom of heaven he doesn't say we are once saved always saved. Sin separates us from God. And as we for my works, as James says, faith without works is dead, I'll show you my faith by my works.
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Post by Mary on Oct 30, 2023 1:18:16 GMT -5
There's no point in going over this again but you are wrong when you say i don't know yous and have never attemnded your meetings. As I said before, I attended your meetings in Ireland, stayed in Patrica Robert's house (she is the author of The Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney), met with a group of Cooneyites and taken to places where Edward Cooney lived, worked and preached. I have a copy of the book. Also met with Fred Woods daughter. If I remember correctly Fred was a worker who left with Cooney and later married. No other workers followed after Cooney.
As I said all churches claim they interpret the Bible correctly. For example, you don't believe in parts of the Bible saying it's spiritual not natural. Dan has pointed out several scriptures which you see differently.
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help
Senior Member
Life Member "Australian Order of Old Bastards" AOOB.
Posts: 841
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Post by help on Oct 30, 2023 4:39:05 GMT -5
After leaving the 2x2's we attended many mainstream Christian churches. They all preach and teach Christ, that is why they are called Christian. Never ever heard any minister mention, Buddha, Mohamed or Donald Duck. Strange that, but it does make sense. So it is a nonsense that they change the doctrine. That line was used as a sales pitch by breakaway groups from the main Christian Churches. Worked for awhile, until people with common sense knew it was a lie.
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Post by maryhig on Oct 31, 2023 18:53:28 GMT -5
There's no point in going over this again but you are wrong when you say i don't know yous and have never attemnded your meetings. As I said before, I attended your meetings in Ireland, stayed in Patrica Robert's house (she is the author of The Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney), met with a group of Cooneyites and taken to places where Edward Cooney lived, worked and preached. I have a copy of the book. Also met with Fred Woods daughter. If I remember correctly Fred was a worker who left with Cooney and later married. No other workers followed after Cooney. As I said all churches claim they interpret the Bible correctly. For example, you don't believe in parts of the Bible saying it's spiritual not natural. Dan has pointed out several scriptures which you see differently. Again, you've never been to our meetings in Wales. You've been to one in Ireland. They are different to ours. And as for Dan showing me scriptures. I've also showed you scriptures which clearly show that the way I believe is true. You can't get any more clearer that where it says they killed Jesus and pleased not God. Why would God want Jesus to be a human sacrifice if it didn't please him to kill Jesus?
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Post by Dan on Oct 31, 2023 23:35:43 GMT -5
There's no point in going over this again but you are wrong when you say i don't know yous and have never attemnded your meetings. As I said before, I attended your meetings in Ireland, stayed in Patrica Robert's house (she is the author of The Life and Ministry of Edward Cooney), met with a group of Cooneyites and taken to places where Edward Cooney lived, worked and preached. I have a copy of the book. Also met with Fred Woods daughter. If I remember correctly Fred was a worker who left with Cooney and later married. No other workers followed after Cooney. As I said all churches claim they interpret the Bible correctly. For example, you don't believe in parts of the Bible saying it's spiritual not natural. Dan has pointed out several scriptures which you see differently. Again, you've never been to our meetings in Wales. You've been to one in Ireland. They are different to ours. And as for Dan showing me scriptures. I've also showed you scriptures which clearly show that the way I believe is true. You can't get any more clearer that where it says they killed Jesus and pleased not God. Why would God want Jesus to be a human sacrifice if it didn't please him to kill Jesus?
Of course it didn't please the Father to see the Son killed. Murder is a sin and God hates sin, that's why the skies darkened, the earth shook, and the temple veil was ripped in half. But God allowed it because it was necessary, a greater good came out of a horrible sacrifice.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 1, 2023 1:22:39 GMT -5
Again, you've never been to our meetings in Wales. You've been to one in Ireland. They are different to ours. And as for Dan showing me scriptures. I've also showed you scriptures which clearly show that the way I believe is true. You can't get any more clearer that where it says they killed Jesus and pleased not God. Why would God want Jesus to be a human sacrifice if it didn't please him to kill Jesus?
Of course it didn't please the Father to see the Son killed. Murder is a sin and God hates sin, that's why the skies darkened, the earth shook, and the temple veil was ripped in half. But God allowed it because it was necessary, a greater good came out of a horrible sacrifice.
What? So God went against his own commandment of thou shalt not kill even though it didn't please him and it was a sin? I thought you said God doesn't change? If it didn't please the father to kill Jesus then it was wrong to kill him. And also, if it didn't please the father to kill him, then the father wouldn't have wanted Jesus to be a human sacrifice to him to save us. You keep contradicting yourself.
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Post by mountain on Nov 1, 2023 4:23:34 GMT -5
What is sin?
Sin is disobedience to the word of God. Every sinful act is disobedience to the word of God.Adam sinned when he disobeyed what God had told him not to do. At no time did Jesus disobey God. That is why he remained sinless.
If a person obeys the word of God they will receive his indwelling spirit. This is what characterises a true follower of Christ. Wariness in associating with the term 'Christian' nowadays is wise because the term can refer to just about anything that remotely has some identification with Jesus.
God is sovereign. He is not subject to the laws and rules he designed for his creation. The Lord gives life and takes it away according to his will. God does kill, but when he does, it is not with evil intent but to work his righteousness.
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Post by mtxnhid on Nov 1, 2023 12:27:22 GMT -5
Mary, Edward Cooney and the Cooneyites are not the same as the 2x2s, at least not in the USA. Edward Cooney was "excommunicated" from the 2x2s in 1928. It sounds like there is just a little confusion in thinking that the 2x2s and the Cooneyites are one and the same. If you ask either group (yes, separate groups), both will definitively tell you that they are NOT part of the other.
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Post by Mary on Nov 1, 2023 13:57:05 GMT -5
Mary, Edward Cooney and the Cooneyites are not the same as the 2x2s, at least not in the USA. Edward Cooney was "excommunicated" from the 2x2s in 1928. It sounds like there is just a little confusion in thinking that the 2x2s and the Cooneyites are one and the same. If you ask either group (yes, separate groups), both will definitively tell you that they are NOT part of the other. I am thinking maybe you are confused. I am well aware that the 2x2s and Cooneyites are not the same group, no one has suggested they are. Cooney was a 2x2 until ex communicated in 1928. He left and a few 2x2s left with him. Some returned to the 2x2s while others (mostly decendants) still meet in Ireland and Wales today. I attended a Cooneyite meeting in Ireland, not a 2x2 and Maryhig attends a Cooneyite one in Wales. She says she is a Cooneyite not a 2x2. They are nothing to do with the 2x2s. A side note is that some people do still identify the 2x2s as Cooneyites from the early days when Cooney traveled the world as a 2x2 worker gaining lots of converts for them before he was exed.
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Post by Dan on Nov 1, 2023 23:42:11 GMT -5
Of course it didn't please the Father to see the Son killed. Murder is a sin and God hates sin, that's why the skies darkened, the earth shook, and the temple veil was ripped in half. But God allowed it because it was necessary, a greater good came out of a horrible sacrifice.
What? So God went against his own commandment of thou shalt not kill even though it didn't please him and it was a sin? I thought you said God doesn't change? If it didn't please the father to kill Jesus then it was wrong to kill him. And also, if it didn't please the father to kill him, then the father wouldn't have wanted Jesus to be a human sacrifice to him to save us. You keep contradicting yourself.
No, the Father did not kill the Son, it was the Jews who sought his death and Rome complied.. God allowed it for a specific purpose that you don't accept. It was for the remission of sin, Jesus died so you could live. If he did not take your sins upon himself by suffering the consequences for sin, then your guilty of your sins and you would perish. If you are sin-free, you don't need a Savior, but "all have sinned" and you can't atone for sin yourself.
Of course the Father was not pleased, but there was no other alternative to eradicate sin and save repentant souls. God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). None-the-less, many will perish. It was the same with Jesus, it did not please God that he was tortured and killed, but it was God's will so that many would not perish.
You need to understand the characteristics of God, he won't violate his own principles. Nothing goes unanswered, allowing unpaid debts (sin) would mean that God was not Just or Righteous. It’s impossible to earn grace, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, Golgotha assured and locked-in grace.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 2, 2023 5:36:31 GMT -5
What? So God went against his own commandment of thou shalt not kill even though it didn't please him and it was a sin? I thought you said God doesn't change? If it didn't please the father to kill Jesus then it was wrong to kill him. And also, if it didn't please the father to kill him, then the father wouldn't have wanted Jesus to be a human sacrifice to him to save us. You keep contradicting yourself.
No, the Father did not kill the Son, it was the Jews who sought his death and Rome complied.. God allowed it for a specific purpose that you don't accept. It was for the remission of sin, Jesus died so you could live. If he did not take your sins upon himself by suffering the consequences for sin, then your guilty of your sins and you would perish. If you are sin-free, you don't need a Savior, but "all have sinned" and you can't atone for sin yourself.
Of course the Father was not pleased, but there was no other alternative to eradicate sin and save repentant souls. God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). None-the-less, many will perish. It was the same with Jesus, it did not please God that he was tortured and killed, but it was God's will so that many would not perish.
You need to understand the characteristics of God, he won't violate his own principles. Nothing goes unanswered, allowing unpaid debts (sin) would mean that God was not Just or Righteous. It’s impossible to earn grace, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, Golgotha assured and locked-in grace.
Eh? What you say is nonsense. How has Jesus naturally dying on the literal cross saved you? What has Jesus being literally murdered saved you from and how has it saved you? And again you're quoting John 3:16 show me where in this verse it mentions Jesus dying on the cross to save us? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Why do people keep using this verse to show that Jesus came to die on the cross? It doesn't say anything like that at all! Jesus tells us clearly why he came into this world in John 17:3. He said he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth. Not to be a human sacrifice to God which is an abomination to God. Your sins aren't cleared by Jesus being murdered, your sins are cleared when you truly repent and start to live by the will of God, deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Jesus. God gives his Spirit to those who obey him. If there's no obedience, then there's no power of the Spirit to overcome, and then our sins remain, because we know the truth and don't obey it. And the reason that we will have no power to overcome is because we need the Spirit to strengthen us, to guide us, and teach us daily in our hearts, helping us to overcome. Jesus said to the pharasees, because you say you see, your sins remain. And that goes for us too, the literal blood of Jesus went 2000 years ago, it's his life blood that saves. And this is the blood that Paul means. And the death Paul means is death to self, which is explained clearly in Romans 6 which I was reading this morning. Open the eyes and ears of your heart, God doesn't need a human sacrifice to save, he needs a living sacrifice, which is exactly what Jesus was, he laid his life laid down to live by the will of God, denying his will to bare witness to the truth and bring us a new and living way to follow. I'm so glad that Jesus clearly says he had a will of his own, because many of you would try and make out he's God because he didn't have a will and goodness knows where that would have led. Jesus had a will, but he denied his will and laid down his life in the flesh to live by the will of his God, to bring us the truth in the gospel and he lived it out himself leaving us a perfect example to follow, he brought us a new and living way, and there is no other way, there is one door and those who enter in, enter in by living as Jesus taught us to live and in doing so we truly follow him. The death here below is death to self, and the crucifixion is to crucify (put to death) our old ways and then through Christ by the power of the Spirit we are raised to life, if we are willing to obey God and live by his will as Jesus himself did. No natural crucifixion can save you, and we have to die as Jesus did, and be dead to self and dead to the ways of this world and alive in God. Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 2, 2023 13:25:06 GMT -5
Mary, Edward Cooney and the Cooneyites are not the same as the 2x2s, at least not in the USA. Edward Cooney was "excommunicated" from the 2x2s in 1928. It sounds like there is just a little confusion in thinking that the 2x2s and the Cooneyites are one and the same. If you ask either group (yes, separate groups), both will definitively tell you that they are NOT part of the other. I'll tell you this though, I believe far more closely to the friends and workers than I do to mainstream Christianity. Their teachings have gone totally out of the way of Jesus and the whole emphasis is on their denominations and building up their churches and taking in money. In fact some of them actually do things against the Bible you bring the people in. And I don't mean the people who attend those churches but the false doctrine that they teach. And you may call us cooneyites, but we are just simple followers of Jesus, just as Edward himself was. And Jesus says, who is his mother, his brother and sister? But those who do the will of his father in heaven. And these are also my brothers and sisters in God, not any denomination. Matthew 12 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
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Post by mountain on Nov 2, 2023 16:05:36 GMT -5
Mary, Edward Cooney and the Cooneyites are not the same as the 2x2s, at least not in the USA. Edward Cooney was "excommunicated" from the 2x2s in 1928. It sounds like there is just a little confusion in thinking that the 2x2s and the Cooneyites are one and the same. If you ask either group (yes, separate groups), both will definitively tell you that they are NOT part of the other. I'll tell you this though, I believe far more closely to the friends and workers than I do to mainstream Christianity. Their teachings have gone totally out of the way of Jesus and the whole emphasis is on their denominations and building up their churches and taking in money. In fact some of them actually do things against the Bible you bring the people in. And I don't mean the people who attend those churches but the false doctrine that they teach. And you may call us cooneyites, but we are just simple followers of Jesus, just as Edward himself was. And Jesus says, who is his mother, his brother and sister? But those who do the will of his father in heaven. And these are also my brothers and sisters in God, not any denomination. Matthew 12 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Therefore grace IS earned by doing the will of God. This makes absolute sense. www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.htmlJesus was FULL of grace because he 100% sought to do God's will in his life. He was also full of truth because he 100% expressed God by his life.
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Post by Dan on Nov 2, 2023 16:39:37 GMT -5
No, the Father did not kill the Son, it was the Jews who sought his death and Rome complied.. God allowed it for a specific purpose that you don't accept. It was for the remission of sin, Jesus died so you could live. If he did not take your sins upon himself by suffering the consequences for sin, then your guilty of your sins and you would perish. If you are sin-free, you don't need a Savior, but "all have sinned" and you can't atone for sin yourself.
Of course the Father was not pleased, but there was no other alternative to eradicate sin and save repentant souls. God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). None-the-less, many will perish. It was the same with Jesus, it did not please God that he was tortured and killed, but it was God's will so that many would not perish.
You need to understand the characteristics of God, he won't violate his own principles. Nothing goes unanswered, allowing unpaid debts (sin) would mean that God was not Just or Righteous. It’s impossible to earn grace, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, Golgotha assured and locked-in grace.
Eh? What you say is nonsense. How has Jesus naturally dying on the literal cross saved you? What has Jesus being literally murdered saved you from and how has it saved you? And again you're quoting John 3:16 show me where in this verse it mentions Jesus dying on the cross to save us? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Why do people keep using this verse to show that Jesus came to die on the cross? It doesn't say anything like that at all! Jesus tells us clearly why he came into this world in John 17:3. He said he was born and came into this world to bare witness to the truth. Not to be a human sacrifice to God which is an abomination to God. Your sins aren't cleared by Jesus being murdered, your sins are cleared when you truly repent and start to live by the will of God, deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow Jesus. God gives his Spirit to those who obey him. If there's no obedience, then there's no power of the Spirit to overcome, and then our sins remain, because we know the truth and don't obey it. And the reason that we will have no power to overcome is because we need the Spirit to strengthen us, to guide us, and teach us daily in our hearts, helping us to overcome. Jesus said to the pharasees, because you say you see, your sins remain. And that goes for us too, the literal blood of Jesus went 2000 years ago, it's his life blood that saves. And this is the blood that Paul means. And the death Paul means is death to self, which is explained clearly in Romans 6 which I was reading this morning. Open the eyes and ears of your heart, God doesn't need a human sacrifice to save, he needs a living sacrifice, which is exactly what Jesus was, he laid his life laid down to live by the will of God, denying his will to bare witness to the truth and bring us a new and living way to follow. I'm so glad that Jesus clearly says he had a will of his own, because many of you would try and make out he's God because he didn't have a will and goodness knows where that would have led. Jesus had a will, but he denied his will and laid down his life in the flesh to live by the will of his God, to bring us the truth in the gospel and he lived it out himself leaving us a perfect example to follow, he brought us a new and living way, and there is no other way, there is one door and those who enter in, enter in by living as Jesus taught us to live and in doing so we truly follow him. The death here below is death to self, and the crucifixion is to crucify (put to death) our old ways and then through Christ by the power of the Spirit we are raised to life, if we are willing to obey God and live by his will as Jesus himself did. No natural crucifixion can save you, and we have to die as Jesus did, and be dead to self and dead to the ways of this world and alive in God. Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Its not nonsense, nearly all Christians believe and understand that Jesus died for the remission of sins, he was as John the Baptist said, "The Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". So your actually the odd-man-out in your belief that you don't need to be washed of sin. God gave his only begotten Son, he didn't lend him to the world for a brief visit or quick lecture, but literally gave his life for us. Its sad that you can't grasp that.
You can't fully obey God or live by his will, that's why you need a Savior who did. We are all dead to sin and remain so until we accept that Jesus atoned for our sins, he bore the curse of the law so that we could escape death. Your under the impression that you don't need a Savior, your don't need to be redeemed, and that your good enough to atone for your own sins. Good luck with that.
No righteous God could absolve you of sin without requiring that the debt of sin be paid. Jesus took the punishment that you and I deserve, "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24). Even nonbelievers understand that verse, its not rocket science. God does not blot-out sin until its been answered for, He would be unjust if He simply forgave and forgot about it. Someone worthy had to pay, and Jesus took that burden upon himself.
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Post by Dan on Nov 2, 2023 16:54:07 GMT -5
Therefore grace IS earned by doing the will of God. This makes absolute sense. www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.htmlJesus was FULL of grace because he 100% sought to do God's will in his life. He was also full of truth because he 100% expressed God by his life.
I'd disagree... We are saved by Grace through Faith. If grace could be earned, who needs Christ?
Grace is the unearned, unmerited favor of God.. No sinner can earn their way into heaven, that belief nullifies the need for a Savior.
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Post by snow on Nov 2, 2023 19:39:56 GMT -5
What is sin? Sin is disobedience to the word of God. Every sinful act is disobedience to the word of God.Adam sinned when he disobeyed what God had told him not to do. At no time did Jesus disobey God. That is why he remained sinless. If a person obeys the word of God they will receive his indwelling spirit. This is what characterises a true follower of Christ. Wariness in associating with the term 'Christian' nowadays is wise because the term can refer to just about anything that remotely has some identification with Jesus. God is sovereign. He is not subject to the laws and rules he designed for his creation. The Lord gives life and takes it away according to his will. God does kill, but when he does, it is not with evil intent but to work his righteousness. Very convenient justification for the OT god.
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Post by chuck on Nov 2, 2023 22:05:15 GMT -5
What is sin? Sin is disobedience to the word of God. Every sinful act is disobedience to the word of God.Adam sinned when he disobeyed what God had told him not to do. At no time did Jesus disobey God. That is why he remained sinless. If a person obeys the word of God they will receive his indwelling spirit. This is what characterises a true follower of Christ. Wariness in associating with the term 'Christian' nowadays is wise because the term can refer to just about anything that remotely has some identification with Jesus. God is sovereign. He is not subject to the laws and rules he designed for his creation. The Lord gives life and takes it away according to his will. God does kill, but when he does, it is not with evil intent but to work his righteousness. Very convenient justification for the OT god. I would say it's extremely ignorant of what the letters G O D represent in the OT. The OT is a narative of one group of people trying to live up to a certain set of ideals(like us sometimes they got it right sometimes they didn't), but now when read with the western language and its own philosophy and concepts these letters G O D have been turned into a actual literal being which drastically changes the intent and picture people get in their head.......and it all goes downhill from there....
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