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Post by chuck on Nov 5, 2023 16:55:47 GMT -5
I don't disagree. I just think its rediculous how a vast number of people still actively choose not to look at any context surrounding the document they structure their life around given how much information there is availabe at our fingertips now about the Hebrew people or the historical arc of the religion Christianity......for example the idea that "Jesus died for our sins" or the payment theory of atonement seems to be actually absent for the first thousand years of Christianity until Anselm of Canterbury populatised it and basically made it doctrine in the 11th century. So one of the fundamental principles to the religion Christianity was highly likely born 1000 years after Jesus and what it is more likely to have meant is "Jesus died because of our sin" instead of "Jesus died for our sins", that single line renders the religion Christianity absolutely useless, or the knowledge of the Hebrew idea of G O D and how the bible presents G O D as literary character as a tool to pass on wisdom but western philosophy literalised the literary character and killed people who did acknowledge their creation..... no wonder people over the ages dont want the laity to go digging...... When you were 12 this information would have been available to many religous people but they suppressed it....while I can see much good has come out of religion over the years its only because of good people within it and not the religion itself, religion is a curse imo. That's good what you say about the first 1000 years, that shows us that the gospel meaning was changed by the different denominations of Christianity. I know that God wouldn't want a human sacrifice, what would be the purpose of that, and what would it gain? Nothing, our sins still remain, our sins cannot be washed away by literal blood that's 2000 years old. That all makes no sense whatsoever. For our sins to be removed in our daily lives then we must deny ourselves, and God helps us to overcome them once we start to try not to do it. When Jesus told them that their sins where forgiven, he was speaking of their past sins which they did in ignorance, but he then told them to go sin no more. He even told one man that if he carries on, then a worse thing will come upon him. And that's what happens to us, we go deeper and deeper into whatsoever wrong we do wrong until we can't get out, and we create our own personal hell. Jesus never once taught that we must believe that he is God, or that we must believe that he is going to be a human sacrifice for our sins for us to be saved. Nowhere did he preach that these things are requirements for salivation, and what he preached is the gospel. He taught that those who are saved live by the will of his father in heaven, not by him being murdered and not by believing he is God. I agree with most of your post, but I don't agree with calling God a character, that sounds like he's made up, he's not a character he's the living God of all creation. It's the Hebrew concept of the letters G O D, not my concept. Everytime you see God written in the bible it is referring to the L O R D. The L O R D is a set of characteristics. You can find them in Exodus 34. A "name" refers to a character or characteristics. This is true throughout the scriptures, the issue is the concept of "name" that you and I use is totally different, When someone says "Mary" they immediately imagine the form attached to the name, then they would say Mary is kind, Mary is wise ect ect. to the Hebrew people when they say Mary they think of your characteristics first......remember dont attach an image to the name......Exodus 20:4, so when you are using these words you read in the bible you need to understand thrle concepts behind them and read them through that lense ans not the lense of our western concepts of said words. Exodus 34:5-6 [5]And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. [6]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, The easiest way for me to describe the G O D mentioned in the bible is........ "the highest ideals to the Hebrew people were mercy grace, longsuffering, abundant goodness and truth" also remembering they like us are prone to making mistakes whilst trying to live up to their highest ideals.... That is the L O R D my G O D........ God to these people was a indwelling influence, this unseen influence was also what they believed created the world, obviously with the benefit of scientific knowledge that they didn't have access to we can explain a whole lot of things that these superstitious people could not. You would have to define what you mean by "the living God"?, are you using the Hebrew concepts or western concepts?.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 17:07:40 GMT -5
That's good what you say about the first 1000 years, that shows us that the gospel meaning was changed by the different denominations of Christianity. I know that God wouldn't want a human sacrifice, what would be the purpose of that, and what would it gain? Nothing, our sins still remain, our sins cannot be washed away by literal blood that's 2000 years old. That all makes no sense whatsoever. For our sins to be removed in our daily lives then we must deny ourselves, and God helps us to overcome them once we start to try not to do it. When Jesus told them that their sins where forgiven, he was speaking of their past sins which they did in ignorance, but he then told them to go sin no more. He even told one man that if he carries on, then a worse thing will come upon him. And that's what happens to us, we go deeper and deeper into whatsoever wrong we do wrong until we can't get out, and we create our own personal hell. Jesus never once taught that we must believe that he is God, or that we must believe that he is going to be a human sacrifice for our sins for us to be saved. Nowhere did he preach that these things are requirements for salivation, and what he preached is the gospel. He taught that those who are saved live by the will of his father in heaven, not by him being murdered and not by believing he is God. I agree with most of your post, but I don't agree with calling God a character, that sounds like he's made up, he's not a character he's the living God of all creation. It's the Hebrew concept of the letters G O D, not my concept. Everytime you see God written in the bible it is referring to the L O R D. The L O R D is a set of characteristics. You can find them in Exodus 34. A "name" refers to a character or characteristics. This is true throughout the scriptures, the issue is the concept of "name" that you and I use is totally different, When someone says "Mary" they immediately imagine the form attached to the name, then they would say Mary is kind, Mary is wise ect ect. to the Hebrew people when they say Mary they think of your characteristics first......remember dont attach an image to the name......Exodus 20:4, so when you are using these words you read in the bible you need to understand thrle concepts behind them and read them through that lense ans not the lense of our western concepts of said words. Exodus 34:5-6 [5]And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. [6]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, The easiest way for me to describe the G O D mentioned in the bible is........ "the highest ideals to the Hebrew people were mercy grace, longsuffering, abundant goodness and truth" That is the L O R D my G O D........ God to these people was a indwelling influence, this unseen influence was also what they believed created the world, obviously with the benefit of scientific knowledge that they didn't have access to we can explain a whole lot of things that these superstitius people could not. You would have to define what you mean by "the living God"?, are you using the Hebrew concepts or western concepts?. I believe as the Hebrews do. God is Spirit, you can't see him with the naked eye, you see him through the Spirit. He's in his people, and yes you see him by his characteristics as you put it, that are in and through his people. You also see him in all he's created and that's why people in the Bible use nature as parables. He's everywhere. By the living God, I mean he's not a dead false God, he is the God of all living things, the God of creation and he's the God of me and you.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 17:11:28 GMT -5
That's people attacking them, I have always said if people came into my home to hurt my children or grandchildren I'd fight back with whatever means necessary. But I wouldn't go out purposely to kill their families. Even if they did that to my family. What they did to me, isn't their children's fault That goes for Israel too, if others go into their country to fight then yes they will fight back I've never said they didn't fight back when attacked. The world will war, that's what happens in this world of war and chaos. But I believe that Gods people don't go out purposely to kill and murder. They go out to fight with the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God. As Paul said, our weapons of warfare are not carnal. And God said thou shalt not kill. And I believe him. It wasn't just other countries attacking Israel. Israel attacked others too trying to take the land that they believed was given to them by their God and it was their God given right to take it and if that meant committing genocides, well, that's okay because they have God's blessing. Right now they are fighting over that same piece of land because both sides believe God is on their side and gave them this land. They are all murdering each other instead of living in peace which is what a God is supposed to support. But then we have a lot of people that really like the OT god that gives them permission to kill in his name, in their opinion. Wrong or right it's what is being done. I'm sorry I don't believe that anyone with God in their hearts would murder anyone. God said thou shalt not kill, and Jesus came and showed us the way to live before God and he was loving and forgiving. To me Gods people war with the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Paul said clearly that our weapons of warfare are not carnal and I believe the same. We will have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Pragmatic on Nov 5, 2023 17:15:54 GMT -5
David and Goliath?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 5, 2023 18:13:01 GMT -5
So if we're all accountable for our sins, then why did Jesus die as a human sacrifice for our sins then?
Where did Jesus himself preach the things that you are saying in the gospels? Where did he say that we must believe what you are saying to be saved? Can you give me chapter and verse please? Thanks
I posted many verses which stipulate that Jesus was sacrificed for the remission of sin;
Hebrews 13:12 - Jesus sanctified the people with his own blood. Isaiah 53:5 - Jesus was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. 1 John 2:2 - Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Romans 3:25 - God presented Jesus as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood. 2 Corinthians 5:21 - Jesus was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." Hebrews 9:12 - "By his own blood .. obtained eternal redemption for us." Revelation 5:9 - "Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" Hebrews 9:22 - By law sin is purged with blood, there's no remission of sin without shedding blood.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Ephesians 1:7 - "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace" 1 John 4:10 - "Sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins" Hebrews 9:26 - "He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." 1 Peter 3:18 - "For Christ also died for sins once for all" Revelation 1:5 - "To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood" Galatians 1:4 - "Who gave himself for our sins"
The bible describes His death as having a greater significance than mere martyrdom. Jesus satisfied the law by answering the offense of sin, suffering the curse of the law by taking our sins upon himself, "God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:19). “Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity" (Titus 2:14).
We are accountable for our sins, and we can't redeem ourselves. Jesus took our sins upon himself, atonement literally means “covering”. He was the substitutionary answer by purchasing our debts and paying the price for our shortcomings.
God will not tolerate sin (Habakkuk 1:13), no sin will enter heaven (Revelation 21:27). No one that is not washed in the lambs blood can enter eternal life (John 1:29). No one can cleanse themselves of sin, we are prisoners to sin and there is but one that liberated us from our inequities.
I sense that you don't philosophically approve of God's methodological way of dealing with sin? Its too barbaric for your taste so you substitute a more pleasant spiritual remedy to replace it. But your answer is unjust and unrighteous, you can't make sin vanish because you've had a change of heart. When your power bill comes due, good intentions won't keep the lights on, someone has got to pay the freight, otherwise its lights out.
Again, you see the blood literally I don't, you see the sacrifice as literal I don't. Jesus is clear, he didn't say he came to die on the cross to save us, there's isn't one verse in which he says that. If there is show me where? Where is any verse that Jesus actually says that he came to be a human sacrifice to God to save us? And that we have to believe in that you be saved? Because I've never seen it. Or where he says that we must believe that he is God to be saved? Thanks And I can show you clearly where it says in the Bible that Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and where he says it's wrong to kill him, even telling those doing so that they do the works of their father who is the devil. Where he says that we are to lay down our lives also, which shows us that when he says he's laying his life down it doesn't mean to die on the literal cross and I've also shown you verses where Paul clearly shows us that they didn't please God by killing Jesus and that it was wrong to do so. Laying down our lives means to stop living by our own will, turn from sin and bare our own cross as Jesus did. I can show you many verses that show us it's wrong before God to kill Jesus and I'll show you them all if you wish? Even the parable of the wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21) that Jesus taught, shows us it was wrong before God to kill him. Jesus didn't need to be murdered to save us, he was saving in his lifetime. He said we are to lose our lives to save it. No crucifixion needed, he was already saving. What he preached is the gospel and he never ever preached anything about being killed to save us or about having to believe that he is God to be saved. My God is a loving God, he is love. And he has taught me to love others as Christ has loved us and he's showed me that murder is wrong, he says touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. And he's showed me that I must obey his word and live by his will, he has put my old life to death in me and he is guiding me daily in the new and living way of Jesus. And we too have you shed our blood and strive against sin, so that shows us that the shedding of the blood it isn't literal. KJV Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. NIV In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And there's this Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (So it wasn't Gods work to murder Jesus, but Satan's, as it was their hour and it was done by the power of darkness there is no darkness in God!) We don't agree, there is no point in going on and on. You believe as you wish, but I don't believe as you do. I know it was a wicked act to do that to Jesus and that it pleased not God to do so and that's enough to show me that God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And one third of God certainly didn't need to come here to be a human sacrifice to another third part of God. That's false teaching made up by father teachers.
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Post by Mary on Nov 5, 2023 23:45:09 GMT -5
I posted many verses which stipulate that Jesus was sacrificed for the remission of sin;
Hebrews 13:12 - Jesus sanctified the people with his own blood. Isaiah 53:5 - Jesus was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities. 1 John 2:2 - Jesus Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Romans 3:25 - God presented Jesus as the atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood. 2 Corinthians 5:21 - Jesus was made sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 1 Peter 2:24 - "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed." Hebrews 9:12 - "By his own blood .. obtained eternal redemption for us." Revelation 5:9 - "Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood" Hebrews 9:22 - By law sin is purged with blood, there's no remission of sin without shedding blood.
Matthew 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Ephesians 1:7 - "In Him we have redemption through His blood, Etc
Again, you see the blood literally I don't, you see the sacrifice as literal I don't. Jesus is clear, he didn't say he came to die on the cross to save us, there's isn't one verse in which he says that. If there is show me where? Where is any verse that Jesus actually says that he came to be a human sacrifice to God to save us? And that we have to believe in that you be saved? Because I've never seen it. Or where he says that we must believe that he is God to be saved? Thanks And I can show you clearly where it says in the Bible that Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and where he says it's wrong to kill him, even telling those doing so that they do the works of their father who is the devil. Where he says that we are to lay down our lives also, which shows us that when he says he's laying his life down it doesn't mean to die on the literal cross and I've also shown you verses where Paul clearly shows us that they didn't please God by killing Jesus and that it was wrong to do so. Laying down our lives means to stop living by our own will, turn from sin and bare our own cross as Jesus did. I can show you many verses that show us it's wrong before God to kill Jesus and I'll show you them all if you wish? Even the parable of the wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21) that Jesus taught, shows us it was wrong before God to kill him. Jesus didn't need to be murdered to save us, he was saving in his lifetime. He said we are to lose our lives to save it. No crucifixion needed, he was already saving. What he preached is the gospel and he never ever preached anything about being killed to save us or about having to believe that he is God to be saved. My God is a loving God, he is love. And he has taught me to love others as Christ has loved us and he's showed me that murder is wrong, he says touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. And he's showed me that I must obey his word and live by his will, he has put my old life to death in me and he is guiding me daily in the new and living way of Jesus. And we too have you shed our blood and strive against sin, so that shows us that the shedding of the blood it isn't literal. KJV Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. NIV In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And there's this Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (So it wasn't Gods work to murder Jesus, but Satan's, as it was their hour and it was done by the power of darkness there is no darkness in God!) We don't agree, there is no point in going on and on. You believe as you wish, but I don't believe as you do. I know it was a wicked act to do that to Jesus and that it pleased not God to do so and that's enough to show me that God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And one third of God certainly didn't need to come here to be a human sacrifice to another third part of God. That's false teaching made up by father teachers. Leviticus 16 v 5 - 10, 15 - 20 Once per year, the high priest was commanded to make an offering of two goats. One goat was sacrificed in order to make atonement for the sins of all the people in the Israelite community. The second goat was a symbol of those sins being removed from God's people. The symbolism connected with the Day of Atonement provided a powerful foreshadowing of Jesus' death on the cross — a death through which He both removed our sins from us and allowed His blood to be shed to make atonement for those sins.
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Post by Dan on Nov 6, 2023 0:17:06 GMT -5
Again, you see the blood literally I don't, you see the sacrifice as literal I don't. Jesus is clear, he didn't say he came to die on the cross to save us, there's isn't one verse in which he says that. If there is show me where? Where is any verse that Jesus actually says that he came to be a human sacrifice to God to save us? And that we have to believe in that you be saved? Because I've never seen it. Or where he says that we must believe that he is God to be saved? Thanks And I can show you clearly where it says in the Bible that Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and where he says it's wrong to kill him, even telling those doing so that they do the works of their father who is the devil. Where he says that we are to lay down our lives also, which shows us that when he says he's laying his life down it doesn't mean to die on the literal cross and I've also shown you verses where Paul clearly shows us that they didn't please God by killing Jesus and that it was wrong to do so. Laying down our lives means to stop living by our own will, turn from sin and bare our own cross as Jesus did. I can show you many verses that show us it's wrong before God to kill Jesus and I'll show you them all if you wish? Even the parable of the wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21) that Jesus taught, shows us it was wrong before God to kill him. Jesus didn't need to be murdered to save us, he was saving in his lifetime. He said we are to lose our lives to save it. No crucifixion needed, he was already saving. What he preached is the gospel and he never ever preached anything about being killed to save us or about having to believe that he is God to be saved. My God is a loving God, he is love. And he has taught me to love others as Christ has loved us and he's showed me that murder is wrong, he says touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. And he's showed me that I must obey his word and live by his will, he has put my old life to death in me and he is guiding me daily in the new and living way of Jesus. And we too have you shed our blood and strive against sin, so that shows us that the shedding of the blood it isn't literal. KJV Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. NIV In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And there's this Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (So it wasn't Gods work to murder Jesus, but Satan's, as it was their hour and it was done by the power of darkness there is no darkness in God!) We don't agree, there is no point in going on and on. You believe as you wish, but I don't believe as you do. I know it was a wicked act to do that to Jesus and that it pleased not God to do so and that's enough to show me that God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And one third of God certainly didn't need to come here to be a human sacrifice to another third part of God. That's false teaching made up by father teachers.
That's cool, your obviously convinced that Jesus died for nothing, and you don't believe that God wanted him killed, even though it was God's will; "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done".
It seems so clear, Jesus said, "The Son of man came to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28) The Greek word for 'ransom' refers to a price paid.
"Jesus said to them, the Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day” (Matthew 17:22). Isaiah 53 tells us why he was killed, the remission of sin was the purpose.
I've only dwelled on this because I believe its dangerous for a Christian to reject the sacrifice Jesus made. If you don't believe he took your sins upon himself and cleansed you of sin, then your sins remain with you and you'll be judged accordingly. You've reduced Jesus to a Rabbi, just a simple teacher and not God or a Savior. Even though there are dozens of verses which state point blank that "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). You can die to self and live for him all you want, but without his sacrifice your still guilty of sin.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 6, 2023 2:57:50 GMT -5
Again, you see the blood literally I don't, you see the sacrifice as literal I don't. Jesus is clear, he didn't say he came to die on the cross to save us, there's isn't one verse in which he says that. If there is show me where? Where is any verse that Jesus actually says that he came to be a human sacrifice to God to save us? And that we have to believe in that you be saved? Because I've never seen it. Or where he says that we must believe that he is God to be saved? Thanks And I can show you clearly where it says in the Bible that Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and where he says it's wrong to kill him, even telling those doing so that they do the works of their father who is the devil. Where he says that we are to lay down our lives also, which shows us that when he says he's laying his life down it doesn't mean to die on the literal cross and I've also shown you verses where Paul clearly shows us that they didn't please God by killing Jesus and that it was wrong to do so. Laying down our lives means to stop living by our own will, turn from sin and bare our own cross as Jesus did. I can show you many verses that show us it's wrong before God to kill Jesus and I'll show you them all if you wish? Even the parable of the wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21) that Jesus taught, shows us it was wrong before God to kill him. Jesus didn't need to be murdered to save us, he was saving in his lifetime. He said we are to lose our lives to save it. No crucifixion needed, he was already saving. What he preached is the gospel and he never ever preached anything about being killed to save us or about having to believe that he is God to be saved. My God is a loving God, he is love. And he has taught me to love others as Christ has loved us and he's showed me that murder is wrong, he says touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. And he's showed me that I must obey his word and live by his will, he has put my old life to death in me and he is guiding me daily in the new and living way of Jesus. And we too have you shed our blood and strive against sin, so that shows us that the shedding of the blood it isn't literal. KJV Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. NIV In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And there's this Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (So it wasn't Gods work to murder Jesus, but Satan's, as it was their hour and it was done by the power of darkness there is no darkness in God!) We don't agree, there is no point in going on and on. You believe as you wish, but I don't believe as you do. I know it was a wicked act to do that to Jesus and that it pleased not God to do so and that's enough to show me that God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And one third of God certainly didn't need to come here to be a human sacrifice to another third part of God. That's false teaching made up by father teachers.
That's cool, your obviously convinced that Jesus died for nothing, and you don't believe that God wanted him killed, even though it was God's will; "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done".
It seems so clear, Jesus said, "The Son of man came to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28) The Greek word for 'ransom' refers to a price paid.
"Jesus said to them, the Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day” (Matthew 17:22). Isaiah 53 tells us why he was killed, the remission of sin was the purpose.
I've only dwelled on this because I believe its dangerous for a Christian to reject the sacrifice Jesus made. If you don't believe he took your sins upon himself and cleansed you of sin, then your sins remain with you and you'll be judged accordingly. You've reduced Jesus to a Rabbi, just a simple teacher and not God or a Savior. Even though there are dozens of verses which state point blank that "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). You can die to self and live for him all you want, but without his sacrifice your still guilty of sin.
Again, you see the blood literally I don't, you see the sacrifice as literal I don't. Jesus is clear, he didn't say he came to die on the cross to save us, there's isn't one verse in which he says that. If there is show me where? Where is any verse that Jesus actually says that he came to be a human sacrifice to God to save us? And that we have to believe in that you be saved? Because I've never seen it. Or where he says that we must believe that he is God to be saved? Thanks And I can show you clearly where it says in the Bible that Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and where he says it's wrong to kill him, even telling those doing so that they do the works of their father who is the devil. Where he says that we are to lay down our lives also, which shows us that when he says he's laying his life down it doesn't mean to die on the literal cross and I've also shown you verses where Paul clearly shows us that they didn't please God by killing Jesus and that it was wrong to do so. Laying down our lives means to stop living by our own will, turn from sin and bare our own cross as Jesus did. I can show you many verses that show us it's wrong before God to kill Jesus and I'll show you them all if you wish? Even the parable of the wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21) that Jesus taught, shows us it was wrong before God to kill him. Jesus didn't need to be murdered to save us, he was saving in his lifetime. He said we are to lose our lives to save it. No crucifixion needed, he was already saving. What he preached is the gospel and he never ever preached anything about being killed to save us or about having to believe that he is God to be saved. My God is a loving God, he is love. And he has taught me to love others as Christ has loved us and he's showed me that murder is wrong, he says touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. And he's showed me that I must obey his word and live by his will, he has put my old life to death in me and he is guiding me daily in the new and living way of Jesus. And we too have you shed our blood and strive against sin, so that shows us that the shedding of the blood it isn't literal. KJV Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. NIV In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And there's this Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (So it wasn't Gods work to murder Jesus, but Satan's, as it was their hour and it was done by the power of darkness there is no darkness in God!) We don't agree, there is no point in going on and on. You believe as you wish, but I don't believe as you do. I know it was a wicked act to do that to Jesus and that it pleased not God to do so and that's enough to show me that God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And one third of God certainly didn't need to come here to be a human sacrifice to another third part of God. That's false teaching made up by father teachers.
That's cool, your obviously convinced that Jesus died for nothing, and you don't believe that God wanted him killed, even though it was God's will; "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done".
It seems so clear, Jesus said, "The Son of man came to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28) The Greek word for 'ransom' refers to a price paid.
"Jesus said to them, the Son of Man is about to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day” (Matthew 17:22). Isaiah 53 tells us why he was killed, the remission of sin was the purpose.
I've only dwelled on this because I believe its dangerous for a Christian to reject the sacrifice Jesus made. If you don't believe he took your sins upon himself and cleansed you of sin, then your sins remain with you and you'll be judged accordingly. You've reduced Jesus to a Rabbi, just a simple teacher and not God or a Savior. Even though there are dozens of verses which state point blank that "The blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). You can die to self and live for him all you want, but without his sacrifice your still guilty of sin.
See, not one verse where Jesus says that we must believe in his death on the cross to save us. And his gospel is the gospel. If he didn't say it, it's not the truth and I don't have to believe it. . And it was Gods will that be took his cup and suffered including the cross and in doing so he overcame Satan, he overcame his evil with good and didn't give in to the temptations of, "look he saved others but he couldn't save himself" and "save yourself and save us also" and God strengthened him to bare it. But I'm of the other thief, "do you not fear God, you and I deserve to die, but this man has done nothing wrong, Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom" And Isaiah 53 only explains what he had to go through when he came to this world and wicked men got their hands on him nothing about salvation at all. All the suffering that Isaiah is speaking of, is what Jesus went through in his lifetime to bring us the truth. And Isaiah says he poured out his soul unto death, that's his poured out life. And he bore the sins of many, suffering what they did to him and made intercession for the transgressors, which is to intervene and he intervened by bringing them the truth of God, to try to stop them in their tracks he came to them as an example to follow but many rejected him because their hearts were hard. Your clutching at straws using those verses to try to justify your beliefs because they mean nothing of the sort. Just like when people use John 3:16 to mean that Jesus came to die on the cross when it says nothing of the sort there either. They changed the truth into a lie. John 3:16 says to believe in him, not his death on the cross. Nothing about the cross or his death in that verse at all, it's about his life. The second verse is nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus dying to save us, it just says that he had to be delivered into the hands of men, in Luke 24 it says delivered into the hands of wicked men. It was wicked men who killed Jesus doing the will of their father the devil. Nothing in that verse is about our salvation. And where did I say that Jesus didn't give his life for a ransom? He did, but he laid down his whole life to live by the will of God for a ransom, he was a living sacrifice, and he saved all those who truly believed, repented and had faith and it is by Gods grace that we hear the word, and it's up to us whether we believe and obey or not. As Paul says, we are saved by the grace of God through faith, no literal crucifixion needed. And Jesus is still saving now through those who also lay down their lives to become living sacrifices and live by God's will. So that they can bare witness to the truth, truly following Jesus bringing us the true gospel which is to believe, repent, deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus in a new and living way and be reconciled to our father in heaven. Jesus is the way, it's a living way, and those who live by it will be doers of the word and not hearers only. And I think it's dangerous for Christians to believe a false gospel, a gospel which teaches that they are saved of all their sins, because Jesus died on a cross to save them. I've met and spoken with many Christians over the years, and they have been taught that no matter what they do they can't lose their salvation because Jesus died in their place so no matter what they do wrong, God doesn't see it. I've even been told by some of these people that I should be stoned to death, one person even said they'd do it, they would stone me to death. Another said I will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will be happy to watch me burn. Some God they believe in! My answer to them was, if they did it to Jesus they'll do it to me just as they did to him and also as they did to Stephen. So I've had much worse than trying to frighten me by saying the way I believe is dangerous, I know it isn't dangerous, because God is speaking to me in my heart and I know he's there. So I know I'm believing the truth and I know he is with me no matter what anyone else says or what they try to frighten me with. And I have faith that no matter what I go through, God will strengthen me to bare it. And that's a clever twist on the gospel, you say that my sins remain if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for me to be saved which is nowhere in the Bible. Yes Jesus says our sins remain if we go against the commandments of God. Which he clearly told the pharasees that they were doing in killing him when God said THOU SHALT NOT KILL. And I believe him.
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Post by chuck on Nov 6, 2023 3:07:26 GMT -5
It's the Hebrew concept of the letters G O D, not my concept. Everytime you see God written in the bible it is referring to the L O R D. The L O R D is a set of characteristics. You can find them in Exodus 34. A "name" refers to a character or characteristics. This is true throughout the scriptures, the issue is the concept of "name" that you and I use is totally different, When someone says "Mary" they immediately imagine the form attached to the name, then they would say Mary is kind, Mary is wise ect ect. to the Hebrew people when they say Mary they think of your characteristics first......remember dont attach an image to the name......Exodus 20:4, so when you are using these words you read in the bible you need to understand thrle concepts behind them and read them through that lense ans not the lense of our western concepts of said words. Exodus 34:5-6 [5]And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. [6]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, The easiest way for me to describe the G O D mentioned in the bible is........ "the highest ideals to the Hebrew people were mercy grace, longsuffering, abundant goodness and truth" That is the L O R D my G O D........ God to these people was a indwelling influence, this unseen influence was also what they believed created the world, obviously with the benefit of scientific knowledge that they didn't have access to we can explain a whole lot of things that these superstitius people could not. You would have to define what you mean by "the living God"?, are you using the Hebrew concepts or western concepts?. I believe as the Hebrews do. God is Spirit, you can't see him with the naked eye, you see him through the Spirit. He's in his people, and yes you see him by his characteristics as you put it, that are in and through his people. You also see him in all he's created and that's why people in the Bible use nature as parables. He's everywhere. By the living God, I mean he's not a dead false God, he is the God of all living things, the God of creation and he's the God of me and you. What do you mean by "Him" or "He"?. These words are added to make it readable in English. Describe what you just said above without "him" or "he". I respectfully disagree that you see God like the Hebrews going on your explanations and use of language so far. By my understanding of "his people", this includes people who would declare themselves devout atheists, do you agree?.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 6, 2023 3:07:55 GMT -5
Again, you see the blood literally I don't, you see the sacrifice as literal I don't. Jesus is clear, he didn't say he came to die on the cross to save us, there's isn't one verse in which he says that. If there is show me where? Where is any verse that Jesus actually says that he came to be a human sacrifice to God to save us? And that we have to believe in that you be saved? Because I've never seen it. Or where he says that we must believe that he is God to be saved? Thanks And I can show you clearly where it says in the Bible that Jesus came to bare witness to the truth, and where he says it's wrong to kill him, even telling those doing so that they do the works of their father who is the devil. Where he says that we are to lay down our lives also, which shows us that when he says he's laying his life down it doesn't mean to die on the literal cross and I've also shown you verses where Paul clearly shows us that they didn't please God by killing Jesus and that it was wrong to do so. Laying down our lives means to stop living by our own will, turn from sin and bare our own cross as Jesus did. I can show you many verses that show us it's wrong before God to kill Jesus and I'll show you them all if you wish? Even the parable of the wicked husbandmen (Matthew 21) that Jesus taught, shows us it was wrong before God to kill him. Jesus didn't need to be murdered to save us, he was saving in his lifetime. He said we are to lose our lives to save it. No crucifixion needed, he was already saving. What he preached is the gospel and he never ever preached anything about being killed to save us or about having to believe that he is God to be saved. My God is a loving God, he is love. And he has taught me to love others as Christ has loved us and he's showed me that murder is wrong, he says touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm. And he's showed me that I must obey his word and live by his will, he has put my old life to death in me and he is guiding me daily in the new and living way of Jesus. And we too have you shed our blood and strive against sin, so that shows us that the shedding of the blood it isn't literal. KJV Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. NIV In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And there's this Luke 22:52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness. (So it wasn't Gods work to murder Jesus, but Satan's, as it was their hour and it was done by the power of darkness there is no darkness in God!) We don't agree, there is no point in going on and on. You believe as you wish, but I don't believe as you do. I know it was a wicked act to do that to Jesus and that it pleased not God to do so and that's enough to show me that God didn't need a human sacrifice to save us. And one third of God certainly didn't need to come here to be a human sacrifice to another third part of God. That's false teaching made up by father teachers. Leviticus 16 v 5 - 10, 15 - 20 Once per year, the high priest was commanded to make an offering of two goats. One goat was sacrificed in order to make atonement for the sins of all the people in the Israelite community. The second goat was a symbol of those sins being removed from God's people. The symbolism connected with the Day of Atonement provided a powerful foreshadowing of Jesus' death on the cross — a death through which He both removed our sins from us and allowed His blood to be shed to make atonement for those sins. Yes and I never said Jesus wasn't a sacrifice, I've said he was a living sacrifice. Again I don't see the blood as you do. The WORDS of Jesus they are Spirit and they are LIFE not his death on the cross. Life saves death doesn't save. If you want to believe that Jesus is God and died on a cross to save you that's up to you. But I believe in him and in his word and that he is the son of God, and I believe in the father, the living God, who is also the God of Jesus and Jesus says this himself clearly in the Bible.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 6, 2023 3:15:38 GMT -5
I believe as the Hebrews do. God is Spirit, you can't see him with the naked eye, you see him through the Spirit. He's in his people, and yes you see him by his characteristics as you put it, that are in and through his people. You also see him in all he's created and that's why people in the Bible use nature as parables. He's everywhere. By the living God, I mean he's not a dead false God, he is the God of all living things, the God of creation and he's the God of me and you. What do you mean by "Him" or "He"?. These words are added to make it readable in English. Describe what you just said above without "him" or "he". I respectfully disagree that you see God like the Hebrews going on your explanations and use of language so far. By my understanding of "his people", this includes people who would declare themselves devout atheists, do you agree?. No, I believe that you must believe in God to belong to him, how can you belong to something you don't believe in? But, I also believe that God looks at the heart so I would never condemn an atheist only God can judge us. They could have a better heart then me. I call God "he" because Jesus called him father which is male. But God is Spirit and Paul says that there is no male or female and that we are all one in Christ Jesus. So I leave all that to God, I just believe.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 6, 2023 4:10:14 GMT -5
I believe as the Hebrews do. God is Spirit, you can't see him with the naked eye, you see him through the Spirit. He's in his people, and yes you see him by his characteristics as you put it, that are in and through his people. You also see him in all he's created and that's why people in the Bible use nature as parables. He's everywhere. By the living God, I mean he's not a dead false God, he is the God of all living things, the God of creation and he's the God of me and you. What do you mean by "Him" or "He"?. These words are added to make it readable in English. Describe what you just said above without "him" or "he". I respectfully disagree that you see God like the Hebrews going on your explanations and use of language so far. By my understanding of "his people", this includes people who would declare themselves devout atheists, do you agree?. Chuck I was thinking about what you said about atheists, and I thought about my uncle who was a staunch atheist but became a strong man of God. So who am I to judge? I'm nothing, I'm just the same as all of you and everyone else. And how can they believe when they hear a false gospel of Jesus being God and that God had to come to be a human sacrifice to save us from God! Those who preach this turn people away, they say God is love and then they preach this false doctrine and condemn people to hell for not believing as they do, and judge others, they preach a false gospel changed by man. None of which Jesus preached and it's not the truth. And I was thinking about the way the Jews believe and how they believe in the circumcision, and how the Jews believe we need to be circumcised of the flesh, but the true circumcision is that of the heart. The natural circumcision is as picture of the true circumcision, the flesh being cut away to bring forth the living child. And we do this when we deny ourselves and obey God, and as we do this our hearts are being circumcised, cleansed by the word of God, and we are being saved from the the lusts of the flesh and ways of this world and we are being reconciled to God through love and life not death and destruction. And in doing so we bring forth the living son of God and he is seen through us as we go through the new birth, being born anew of the Spirit. God is love, and in him there is no death just life. And all those who truly follow him live by his will and love him with all their heart, with an their mind, with an their soul and with all their strength and they will love others, not just their own. Like a climbing rose, it doesn't just grow in our garden but stretches over the fence to show it's beauty to our neighbours. And that's like those who truly belong to God, they will have strong roots, and they will be there to help others when they see the need, and you will see the love of God in their lives as they follow Jesus in word and deed.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 6, 2023 4:37:41 GMT -5
When I was a child, I watched the series Jesus of Nazareth. I had watched all the series and loved it. Until one night my mum was cooking in the kitchen, I was about 10 years old. So I sat watching the TV, I saw them holding Jesus down, and they started to hammer nails into his hands. I screamed the house down, I ran into the hall and up the stairs with my hands in my head screaming at the top of my voice shouting no no no. My mum came running out of the kitchen and realised what I'd seen and turned the TV off. She ran up the stairs and grabbed me and I sobbed.l can remember saying "why mum, why did they kill him he did nothing wrong" I still remember how I felt that day. And I still cry when I think what they did to Jesus.
Then when was older, along came the passion of Christ, they started to hurt him and that was it, off went the TV and again I sobbed sore this time my husband hugging me.
How can anyone think that is a good thing, I'm nearly crying again thinking of it. It makes me feel physically sick it's evil and wicked and it's wrong before God.
I sometimes think, what would those who believe in Jesus dying on the cross to save them do, if they were there at the time when Pilate gave a choice between Jesus and Barabbas. Would they shout "crucifiy him" as they are doing now, or would they scream at the top of their voices "save him" as I would be doing if I was there. And I wouldn't want Barabbas to be killed either!
I was talking to a group of Christians at the beach one day, and I asked two of them, what would you do, if you were at the cross of Jesus, would you shout crucifiy him or save him. And I was amazed at their answers. It was like being back there at the time of Jesus. One said I would say crucifiy him because that's what he came for, to die to save us. And then the other turned to him and said no way that's wrong, I would cry save him, I'd want Jesus to be saved not crucified. And I saw them like the two thieves.
What would you do, those who believe in the Jesus being crucified you save them? I'd scream save him from the depths of my lungs at the top of my voice, would you crucify him like you do now or would you want him saved if you were there in real life?
It was an open shame to murder Jesus, and it says in Hebrews that once we know God, we can crucifiy Christ afresh again and put him to an open shame all over again when we don't live by the will of God and if we don't obey Gods word. And if we turn away from God by living by the lusts of our flesh, then we are putting Jesus to death within us and others can't see his life through us, we talk the talk but don't walk the walk and we put him to an open shame.
And these verses from Hebrews clearly shows us that it was wrong to crucify Jesus, and we can do it again and again as we put ourselves and our lives before God.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
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Post by chuck on Nov 6, 2023 20:18:56 GMT -5
What do you mean by "Him" or "He"?. These words are added to make it readable in English. Describe what you just said above without "him" or "he". I respectfully disagree that you see God like the Hebrews going on your explanations and use of language so far. By my understanding of "his people", this includes people who would declare themselves devout atheists, do you agree?. No, I believe that you must believe in God to belong to him, how can you belong to something you don't believe in? But, I also believe that God looks at the heart so I would never condemn an atheist only God can judge us. They could have a better heart then me. I call God "he" because Jesus called him father which is male. But God is Spirit and Paul says that there is no male or female and that we are all one in Christ Jesus. So I leave all that to God, I just believe. This is why I dont think you understand what the Hebrew concepts are surrounding these words and therefore what the scriptures are actually saying. Believing in the God who's name is the L O R D is "TO BE" gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness....it is not an announcement or an affirmation in one's mind of that prior action but rather the action itself prior an announcement or affirmation in ones mind of the phrase "I believe in God" which by default highlights how useless the announcement actually is because it's after the fact that actually determines whether you do or not. To belong to the L O R D is not a mental affirmation but that is your starting point and all your language flows from that point. It's a false premise and has proven to be extremely unreliable and flat out hypocritical given the amount of hatred that has flown from people announcing such platitudes. A person who is actually gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness by definition of Hebrew scripture are ones who believe in God, thia captures a broad range of people that includes Atheists. Most religious people and most atheist would reject that premise as the ideas and concepts they associate with the phrase "believe in God" are purely derived from religious dogmatism absent original thought behind such phrases. Actually anyone who say's they believe in the God named the L O R D has a very high opinion of themselves as what they are technically saying is "I am gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness".....who's really bold enough to honestly say they are 100% that 100% of the time.......hot tip if you are not dont say it as it devalues the intent behind the words!.
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Post by chuck on Nov 6, 2023 20:28:38 GMT -5
What do you mean by "Him" or "He"?. These words are added to make it readable in English. Describe what you just said above without "him" or "he". I respectfully disagree that you see God like the Hebrews going on your explanations and use of language so far. By my understanding of "his people", this includes people who would declare themselves devout atheists, do you agree?. Chuck I was thinking about what you said about atheists, and I thought about my uncle who was a staunch atheist but became a strong man of God. So who am I to judge? I'm nothing, I'm just the same as all of you and everyone else. And how can they believe when they hear a false gospel of Jesus being God and that God had to come to be a human sacrifice to save us from God! Those who preach this turn people away, they say God is love and then they preach this false doctrine and condemn people to hell for not believing as they do, and judge others, they preach a false gospel changed by man. None of which Jesus preached and it's not the truth. And I was thinking about the way the Jews believe and how they believe in the circumcision, and how the Jews believe we need to be circumcised of the flesh, but the true circumcision is that of the heart. The natural circumcision is as picture of the true circumcision, the flesh being cut away to bring forth the living child. And we do this when we deny ourselves and obey God, and as we do this our hearts are being circumcised, cleansed by the word of God, and we are being saved from the the lusts of the flesh and ways of this world and we are being reconciled to God through love and life not death and destruction. And in doing so we bring forth the living son of God and he is seen through us as we go through the new birth, being born anew of the Spirit. God is love, and in him there is no death just life. And all those who truly follow him live by his will and love him with all their heart, with an their mind, with an their soul and with all their strength and they will love others, not just their own. Like a climbing rose, it doesn't just grow in our garden but stretches over the fence to show it's beauty to our neighbours. And that's like those who truly belong to God, they will have strong roots, and they will be there to help others when they see the need, and you will see the love of God in their lives as they follow Jesus in word and deed. "God is love, and in him there is no death just life. And all those who truly follow him live by his will and love him with all their heart, with an their mind, with an their soul and with all their strength and they will love others, not just their own. Like a climbing rose, it doesn't just grow in our garden but stretches over the fence to show it's beauty to our neighbours. And that's like those who truly belong to God, they will have strong roots, and they will be there to help others when they see the need, and you will see the love of God in their lives as they follow Jesus in word and deed" You have just described a dozen Atheists that I know but you have automatically disqualified them purely because of religous mental affirmation. Again I reject the premise as it's absent original intent, it is not scriptural.
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Post by chuck on Nov 6, 2023 21:02:02 GMT -5
David, a man after the LORDS own heart murdered Uriah so he could keep Uriah's wife whom he impregnated only then for the LORD to strike the child down sick and then die.........
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Post by Dan on Nov 7, 2023 1:23:57 GMT -5
See, not one verse where Jesus says that we must believe in his death on the cross to save us. And his gospel is the gospel. If he didn't say it, it's not the truth and I don't have to believe it. . Where did Jesus say not to worship idols? If he didn't say it, it's not the truth. So its okay to worship idols? Some things are implied, and Jesus did say "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Remission means; the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty.. So why was Jesus sacrificed? And it was Gods will that be took his cup and suffered including the cross and in doing so he overcame Satan, he overcame his evil with good and didn't give in to the temptations of, "look he saved others but he couldn't save himself" and "save yourself and save us also" and God strengthened him to bare it. But I'm of the other thief, "do you not fear God, you and I deserve to die, but this man has done nothing wrong, Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom" Jesus overcame Satan in the wilderness long before his crucifixion. He suffer and died to defeat something he was never guilty of, that being the sins of believers. And Isaiah 53 only explains what he had to go through when he came to this world and wicked men got their hands on him nothing about salvation at all. All the suffering that Isaiah is speaking of, is what Jesus went through in his lifetime to bring us the truth. Isaiah 53 says "The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all".. "Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin".. "He shall bear their iniquities". How do you spin that to mean something other than what it says?
And Isaiah says he poured out his soul unto death, that's his poured out life. And he bore the sins of many, suffering what they did to him and made intercession for the transgressors, which is to intervene and he intervened by bringing them the truth of God, to try to stop them in their tracks he came to them as an example to follow but many rejected him because their hearts were hard. "He bare the sin of many" does not mean the sinful acts against him personally, it means the sins we commit everyday. Your clutching at straws using those verses to try to justify your beliefs because they mean nothing of the sort. Just like when people use John 3:16 to mean that Jesus came to die on the cross when it says nothing of the sort there either. They changed the truth into a lie. John 3:16 says to believe in him, not his death on the cross. Nothing about the cross or his death in that verse at all, it's about his life. Part of his life includes how and why he died, believing in the toughest thing Jesus experienced and why it was necessary is part of believing in his entire life. The second verse is nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus dying to save us, it just says that he had to be delivered into the hands of men, in Luke 24 it says delivered into the hands of wicked men. It was wicked men who killed Jesus doing the will of their father the devil. Nothing in that verse is about our salvation. You don't understand salvation because you've denied the necessity of a Savior! Jesus was delivered up as a sacrifice just as it was prophesied. If he had failed, you would be guilty of sin and condemned. He surrendered his life as a ransom for yours.
And where did I say that Jesus didn't give his life for a ransom? He did, but he laid down his whole life to live by the will of God for a ransom, He was a living sacrifice, and he saved all those who truly believed, repented and had faith and it is by Gods grace that we hear the word, and it's up to us whether we believe and obey or not. As Paul says, we are saved by the grace of God through faith, no literal crucifixion needed. Calvary was Grace, the unmerited favor we don't deserve and didn't earn.And Jesus is still saving now through those who also lay down their lives to become living sacrifices and live by God's will. So that they can bare witness to the truth, truly following Jesus bringing us the true gospel which is to believe, repent, deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus in a new and living way and be reconciled to our father in heaven. Jesus is the way, it's a living way, and those who live by it will be doers of the word and not hearers only. Reconciliation includes recognizing what the Savior did to save us, preaching the word and being sinless didn't blot-out sin, the cross did. If you exempt Calvary, the gospel isn't 'good news', its just the old covenant reiterated. And I think it's dangerous for Christians to believe a false gospel, a gospel which teaches that they are saved of all their sins, because Jesus died on a cross to save them. I've met and spoken with many Christians over the years, and they have been taught that no matter what they do they can't lose their salvation because Jesus died in their place so no matter what they do wrong, God doesn't see it. I've even been told by some of these people that I should be stoned to death, one person even said they'd do it, they would stone me to death. Another said I will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will be happy to watch me burn. Some God they believe in! My answer to them was, if they did it to Jesus they'll do it to me just as they did to him and also as they did to Stephen. So I've had much worse than trying to frighten me by saying the way I believe is dangerous, I know it isn't dangerous, because God is speaking to me in my heart and I know he's there. So I know I'm believing the truth and I know he is with me no matter what anyone else says or what they try to frighten me with. And I have faith that no matter what I go through, God will strengthen me to bare it. Its not a false gospel to believe our sins were atoned for, we are alive in Christ because we are no longer dead to sin. That doesn't give us a license to sin, it just means that when we do, its no longer a death sentence. And that's a clever twist on the gospel, you say that my sins remain if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for me to be saved which is nowhere in the Bible. Yes Jesus says our sins remain if we go against the commandments of God. Which he clearly told the pharasees that they were doing in killing him when God said THOU SHALT NOT KILL. And I believe him. Where did Jesus say that our sins remain if we break the law? He removed the curse of the law, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13). I have just one last question for you.. Assuming you've sinned, and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23), how do you plan to inherit eternal life?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 1:52:18 GMT -5
No, I believe that you must believe in God to belong to him, how can you belong to something you don't believe in? But, I also believe that God looks at the heart so I would never condemn an atheist only God can judge us. They could have a better heart then me. I call God "he" because Jesus called him father which is male. But God is Spirit and Paul says that there is no male or female and that we are all one in Christ Jesus. So I leave all that to God, I just believe. This is why I dont think you understand what the Hebrew concepts are surrounding these words and therefore what the scriptures are actually saying. Believing in the God who's name is the L O R D is "TO BE" gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness....it is not an announcement or an affirmation in one's mind of that prior action but rather the action itself prior an announcement or affirmation in ones mind of the phrase "I believe in God" which by default highlights how useless the announcement actually is because it's after the fact that actually determines whether you do or not. To belong to the L O R D is not a mental affirmation but that is your starting point and all your language flows from that point. It's a false premise and has proven to be extremely unreliable and flat out hypocritical given the amount of hatred that has flown from people announcing such platitudes. A person who is actually gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness by definition of Hebrew scripture are ones who believe in God, thia captures a broad range of people that includes Atheists. Most religious people and most atheist would reject that premise as the ideas and concepts they associate with the phrase "believe in God" are purely derived from religious dogmatism absent original thought behind such phrases. Actually anyone who say's they believe in the God named the L O R D has a very high opinion of themselves as what they are technically saying is "I am gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness".....who's really bold enough to honestly say they are 100% that 100% of the time.......hot tip if you are not dont say it as it devalues the intent behind the words!. I'm sorry Chuck but we have to have faith, Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. And no I'm not correct 100% of the time, are you? I'm going by what Jesus and those who follow him teach in the Bible, because I believe in Jesus, and I can show why I believe as I do by the scriptures.We can't belong to God if we don't believe in him. We can be good to everyone yes, but we must have faith and believe in him to belong to him. You can't belong to something you don't believe in, that makes no sense. If we reject that God exists, then how can we belong to him? We can't. But I'm not a judge, and I don't know who God is looking at. But I do know that my uncle was a staunch atheist and he came to believe. And I believe that God judges the heart. So I have hope for everyone and leave the rest to God.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 1:53:35 GMT -5
David, a man after the LORDS own heart murdered Uriah so he could keep Uriah's wife whom he impregnated only then for the LORD to strike the child down sick and then die......... Yes we will suffer for what we do wrong in this lifetime.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 2:03:07 GMT -5
See, not one verse where Jesus says that we must believe in his death on the cross to save us. And his gospel is the gospel. If he didn't say it, it's not the truth and I don't have to believe it. . Where did Jesus say not to worship idols? If he didn't say it, it's not the truth. So its okay to worship idols? Some things are implied, and Jesus did say "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins". Remission means; the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty.. So why was Jesus sacrificed? And it was Gods will that be took his cup and suffered including the cross and in doing so he overcame Satan, he overcame his evil with good and didn't give in to the temptations of, "look he saved others but he couldn't save himself" and "save yourself and save us also" and God strengthened him to bare it. But I'm of the other thief, "do you not fear God, you and I deserve to die, but this man has done nothing wrong, Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom" Jesus overcame Satan in the wilderness long before his crucifixion. He suffer and died to defeat something he was never guilty of, that being the sins of believers. And Isaiah 53 only explains what he had to go through when he came to this world and wicked men got their hands on him nothing about salvation at all. All the suffering that Isaiah is speaking of, is what Jesus went through in his lifetime to bring us the truth. Isaiah 53 says "The LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all".. "Thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin".. "He shall bear their iniquities". How do you spin that to mean something other than what it says?
And Isaiah says he poured out his soul unto death, that's his poured out life. And he bore the sins of many, suffering what they did to him and made intercession for the transgressors, which is to intervene and he intervened by bringing them the truth of God, to try to stop them in their tracks he came to them as an example to follow but many rejected him because their hearts were hard. "He bare the sin of many" does not mean the sinful acts against him personally, it means the sins we commit everyday. Your clutching at straws using those verses to try to justify your beliefs because they mean nothing of the sort. Just like when people use John 3:16 to mean that Jesus came to die on the cross when it says nothing of the sort there either. They changed the truth into a lie. John 3:16 says to believe in him, not his death on the cross. Nothing about the cross or his death in that verse at all, it's about his life. Part of his life includes how and why he died, believing in the toughest thing Jesus experienced and why it was necessary is part of believing in his entire life. The second verse is nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus dying to save us, it just says that he had to be delivered into the hands of men, in Luke 24 it says delivered into the hands of wicked men. It was wicked men who killed Jesus doing the will of their father the devil. Nothing in that verse is about our salvation. You don't understand salvation because you've denied the necessity of a Savior! Jesus was delivered up as a sacrifice just as it was prophesied. If he had failed, you would be guilty of sin and condemned. He surrendered his life as a ransom for yours.
And where did I say that Jesus didn't give his life for a ransom? He did, but he laid down his whole life to live by the will of God for a ransom, He was a living sacrifice, and he saved all those who truly believed, repented and had faith and it is by Gods grace that we hear the word, and it's up to us whether we believe and obey or not. As Paul says, we are saved by the grace of God through faith, no literal crucifixion needed. Calvary was Grace, the unmerited favor we don't deserve and didn't earn.And Jesus is still saving now through those who also lay down their lives to become living sacrifices and live by God's will. So that they can bare witness to the truth, truly following Jesus bringing us the true gospel which is to believe, repent, deny yourself and take up your cross and follow Jesus in a new and living way and be reconciled to our father in heaven. Jesus is the way, it's a living way, and those who live by it will be doers of the word and not hearers only. Reconciliation includes recognizing what the Savior did to save us, preaching the word and being sinless didn't blot-out sin, the cross did. If you exempt Calvary, the gospel isn't 'good news', its just the old covenant reiterated. And I think it's dangerous for Christians to believe a false gospel, a gospel which teaches that they are saved of all their sins, because Jesus died on a cross to save them. I've met and spoken with many Christians over the years, and they have been taught that no matter what they do they can't lose their salvation because Jesus died in their place so no matter what they do wrong, God doesn't see it. I've even been told by some of these people that I should be stoned to death, one person even said they'd do it, they would stone me to death. Another said I will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will be happy to watch me burn. Some God they believe in! My answer to them was, if they did it to Jesus they'll do it to me just as they did to him and also as they did to Stephen. So I've had much worse than trying to frighten me by saying the way I believe is dangerous, I know it isn't dangerous, because God is speaking to me in my heart and I know he's there. So I know I'm believing the truth and I know he is with me no matter what anyone else says or what they try to frighten me with. And I have faith that no matter what I go through, God will strengthen me to bare it. Its not a false gospel to believe our sins were atoned for, we are alive in Christ because we are no longer dead to sin. That doesn't give us a license to sin, it just means that when we do, its no longer a death sentence. And that's a clever twist on the gospel, you say that my sins remain if I don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for me to be saved which is nowhere in the Bible. Yes Jesus says our sins remain if we go against the commandments of God. Which he clearly told the pharasees that they were doing in killing him when God said THOU SHALT NOT KILL. And I believe him. Where did Jesus say that our sins remain if we break the law? He removed the curse of the law, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13). I have just one last question for you.. Assuming you've sinned, and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23), how do you plan to inherit eternal life? Can you please sort this so that what you say isn't mixed up with what I'm saying Thank you.
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Post by chuck on Nov 7, 2023 3:46:32 GMT -5
This is why I dont think you understand what the Hebrew concepts are surrounding these words and therefore what the scriptures are actually saying. Believing in the God who's name is the L O R D is "TO BE" gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness....it is not an announcement or an affirmation in one's mind of that prior action but rather the action itself prior an announcement or affirmation in ones mind of the phrase "I believe in God" which by default highlights how useless the announcement actually is because it's after the fact that actually determines whether you do or not. To belong to the L O R D is not a mental affirmation but that is your starting point and all your language flows from that point. It's a false premise and has proven to be extremely unreliable and flat out hypocritical given the amount of hatred that has flown from people announcing such platitudes. A person who is actually gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness by definition of Hebrew scripture are ones who believe in God, thia captures a broad range of people that includes Atheists. Most religious people and most atheist would reject that premise as the ideas and concepts they associate with the phrase "believe in God" are purely derived from religious dogmatism absent original thought behind such phrases. Actually anyone who say's they believe in the God named the L O R D has a very high opinion of themselves as what they are technically saying is "I am gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness".....who's really bold enough to honestly say they are 100% that 100% of the time.......hot tip if you are not dont say it as it devalues the intent behind the words!. I'm sorry Chuck but we have to have faith, Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. And no I'm not correct 100% of the time, are you? I'm going by what Jesus and those who follow him teach in the Bible, because I believe in Jesus, and I can show why I believe as I do by the scriptures.We can't belong to God if we don't believe in him. We can be good to everyone yes, but we must have faith and believe in him to belong to him. You can't belong to something you don't believe in, that makes no sense. If we reject that God exists, then how can we belong to him? We can't. But I'm not a judge, and I don't know who God is looking at. But I do know that my uncle was a staunch atheist and he came to believe. And I believe that God judges the heart. So I have hope for everyone and leave the rest to God. Faith like believe is a doing word, it is not an acceptance of something you have mentally affirmed before acting. It is the action itself. Hebrew people are function thinkers not form thinkers, so affirming in your mind about an existent God as the firet step in the process is exactly not what scripture is saying. Existent means its not imaginary, everything you have been describing is imaginary because of its absence of existence, this is why people become atheists, they can no longer rationalize mentally affirming something that's continuously absence in existence. Im not trying to offend you Mary but nothing you are saying makes sense scripturally when considering the ancient concepts behind the words you are using. All the terminology in your descriptions have come along later born in western though, the scripture is deeply Jewish and it would pay to understand the basic though process of these people so you can understand what they were saying. In todays language the word God in scripture means the unseen influence behind the cultures highest ideals. The only way this could be considered somewhat existent is within the action of the person attempting to apply the highest ideals. This person could identify as Christian or Atheist. If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 4:09:01 GMT -5
I'm sorry Chuck but we have to have faith, Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. And no I'm not correct 100% of the time, are you? I'm going by what Jesus and those who follow him teach in the Bible, because I believe in Jesus, and I can show why I believe as I do by the scriptures.We can't belong to God if we don't believe in him. We can be good to everyone yes, but we must have faith and believe in him to belong to him. You can't belong to something you don't believe in, that makes no sense. If we reject that God exists, then how can we belong to him? We can't. But I'm not a judge, and I don't know who God is looking at. But I do know that my uncle was a staunch atheist and he came to believe. And I believe that God judges the heart. So I have hope for everyone and leave the rest to God. Faith like believe is a doing word, it is not an acceptance of something you have mentally affirmed before acting. It is the action itself. Hebrew people are function thinkers not form thinkers, so affirming in your mind about an existent God as the firet step in the process is exactly not what scripture is saying. Existent means its not imaginary, everything you have been describing is imaginary because of its absence of existence, this is why people become atheists, they can no longer rationalize mentally affirming something that's continuously absence in existence. Im not trying to offend you Mary but nothing you are saying makes sense scripturally when considering the ancient concepts behind the words you are using. All the terminology in your descriptions have come along later born in western though, the scripture is deeply Jewish and it would pay to understand the basic though process of these people so you can understand what they were saying. In todays language the word God in scripture means the unseen influence behind the cultures highest ideals. The only way this could be considered somewhat existent is within the action of the person attempting to apply the highest ideals. This person could identify as Christian or Atheist. If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about. Firstly where did I say the faith isn't a doing word? If we believe we will do! Haven't you ever read my posts? I say that we have to do all the time. We are to be doers of the word. James says that faith without works is dead. I have never once said the we can have faith and not do. Absence of existence? What? Everything around us exists, we exist so something has to have created us. Or don't you believe that? And to me that's God. I know he's there Chuck I don't have one ounce of doubt in my body. And if the Jews of the old testament were completely right then they would have believed in Jesus not murdered him. He came and showed us how to live before God perfectly. Or don't you believe in him either?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 4:12:06 GMT -5
I'm sorry Chuck but we have to have faith, Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. And no I'm not correct 100% of the time, are you? I'm going by what Jesus and those who follow him teach in the Bible, because I believe in Jesus, and I can show why I believe as I do by the scriptures.We can't belong to God if we don't believe in him. We can be good to everyone yes, but we must have faith and believe in him to belong to him. You can't belong to something you don't believe in, that makes no sense. If we reject that God exists, then how can we belong to him? We can't. But I'm not a judge, and I don't know who God is looking at. But I do know that my uncle was a staunch atheist and he came to believe. And I believe that God judges the heart. So I have hope for everyone and leave the rest to God. Faith like believe is a doing word, it is not an acceptance of something you have mentally affirmed before acting. It is the action itself. Hebrew people are function thinkers not form thinkers, so affirming in your mind about an existent God as the firet step in the process is exactly not what scripture is saying. Existent means its not imaginary, everything you have been describing is imaginary because of its absence of existence, this is why people become atheists, they can no longer rationalize mentally affirming something that's continuously absence in existence. Im not trying to offend you Mary but nothing you are saying makes sense scripturally when considering the ancient concepts behind the words you are using. All the terminology in your descriptions have come along later born in western though, the scripture is deeply Jewish and it would pay to understand the basic though process of these people so you can understand what they were saying. In todays language the word God in scripture means the unseen influence behind the cultures highest ideals. The only way this could be considered somewhat existent is within the action of the person attempting to apply the highest ideals. This person could identify as Christian or Atheist. If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about. As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊
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Post by mountain on Nov 7, 2023 5:04:10 GMT -5
Therefore grace IS earned by doing the will of God. This makes absolute sense. www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.htmlJesus was FULL of grace because he 100% sought to do God's will in his life. He was also full of truth because he 100% expressed God by his life. I'd disagree... We are saved by Grace through Faith. If grace could be earned, who needs Christ?
Grace is the unearned, unmerited favor of God.. No sinner can earn their way into heaven, that belief nullifies the need for a Savior.
Okay, please explain your understanding of what grace is and what is its purpose!
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Post by mountain on Nov 7, 2023 5:05:32 GMT -5
What is sin? Sin is disobedience to the word of God. Every sinful act is disobedience to the word of God.Adam sinned when he disobeyed what God had told him not to do. At no time did Jesus disobey God. That is why he remained sinless. If a person obeys the word of God they will receive his indwelling spirit. This is what characterises a true follower of Christ. Wariness in associating with the term 'Christian' nowadays is wise because the term can refer to just about anything that remotely has some identification with Jesus. God is sovereign. He is not subject to the laws and rules he designed for his creation. The Lord gives life and takes it away according to his will. God does kill, but when he does, it is not with evil intent but to work his righteousness. Very convenient justification for the OT god. Very convenient justification for the OT god.
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Post by rk0atheist on Nov 7, 2023 5:43:06 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 I am an atheist. I generally write it with a lower-case letter "a" unless I'm talking about a specific group like American Atheists. I am also an American. I do write American with an upper-case letter "A". I have only been a member of this Message Board for a couple of weeks now. I didn't come here to cause trouble. I consider myself a guest here and I am grateful that the Admins and members have allowed my participation. I don't mind answering your question or other questions about my beliefs but I don't think this "Proper Church Structure" Thread under the "Truth Meetings Board" Board in the "The Truth - Church of the Friends and Workers" Group is the appropriate place for this conversation. I think it would be better if you create a new Thread in the "Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults" Board under the "General" Group. (I hope I got all those board layers right. The proper board structure.) Or, I think my email address is available to all members if you want to check my Profile and email me privately.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 5:57:44 GMT -5
As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 I am an atheist. I generally write it with a lower-case letter "a" unless I'm talking about a specific group like American Atheists. I am also an American. I do write American with an upper-case letter "A". I have only been a member of this Message Board for a couple of weeks now. I didn't come here to cause trouble. I consider myself a guest here and I am grateful that the Admins and members have allowed my participation. I don't mind answering your question or other questions about my beliefs but I don't think this "Proper Church Structure" Thread under the "Truth Meetings Board" Board in the "The Truth - Church of the Friends and Workers" Group is the appropriate place for this conversation. I think it would be better if you create a new Thread in the "Religions, debates, atheist playground, cults" Board under the "General" Group. (I hope I got all those board layers right. The proper board structure.) Or, I think my email address is available to all members if you want to check my Profile and email me privately. Ok do you want to start a new thread then? 😊
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Post by maryhig on Nov 7, 2023 6:05:47 GMT -5
Faith like believe is a doing word, it is not an acceptance of something you have mentally affirmed before acting. It is the action itself. Hebrew people are function thinkers not form thinkers, so affirming in your mind about an existent God as the firet step in the process is exactly not what scripture is saying. Existent means its not imaginary, everything you have been describing is imaginary because of its absence of existence, this is why people become atheists, they can no longer rationalize mentally affirming something that's continuously absence in existence. Im not trying to offend you Mary but nothing you are saying makes sense scripturally when considering the ancient concepts behind the words you are using. All the terminology in your descriptions have come along later born in western though, the scripture is deeply Jewish and it would pay to understand the basic though process of these people so you can understand what they were saying. In todays language the word God in scripture means the unseen influence behind the cultures highest ideals. The only way this could be considered somewhat existent is within the action of the person attempting to apply the highest ideals. This person could identify as Christian or Atheist. If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about. As for atheists, do you think they would say they belong to God? Why are you pushing that so much, they don't believe in God so I don't think they are worried about belonging to him? Or are they? Anyone here who is an atheist, do you worry about belonging to God or not? I would love it if you do 😊 By the way, you say there's not one scripture affirming what I'm saying, yet I've just quoted a scripture that does. You said this quote: " If a prerequisite of belonging to God means an Atheist has to affirm the the things you mentally affirm imho this is exactly not what the wisdom of scripture is advising about the Hebrew God known as the L O R D, it is a God no doubt but not the one scripture is telling a story about." And here's the scripture, and it's actually in Hebrews so it's addressed to them. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Don't you think Abraham had faith? Or Moses? They truly had faith in God and truly believed. As did others in the old testament. But just by their actions but by what they said also.
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