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Post by Admin on Sept 20, 2023 19:06:14 GMT -5
From the other Canada thread:This was shared on a Facebook group, so I assume it is okay to share here: online.flippingbook.com/view/730519895/?fbclid=IwAR3itkR9nOkxSDQwIBw_Yxec79vHnC8Zr8NmmzY7fnhwns-H_rrIMZYrN3cThis is from Bruce Waddell's niece. The story is honest, gripping, eye-opening, and because of the poetic way it is presented, gets past many of our preconceived notions and defenses. This is part of the Canadian story. A big part. Particularly because Bruce Waddell got off pretty much scot free by admitting "fondling" in a different situation at an earlier time: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-ca-offenders/bruce-waddell/I loved Vanessa from the moment I first saw her. Flaming red hair, and as she grew, a marvelous impish grin and a totally engaging personality. I would have lost track of her when she was 8 or 9 years old, probably about the time her perv uncle started to destroy her life. I do not remember so much about Jan, she always seemed so together and self-possessed. This enrages me, more than I can say. Bruce was one of my contemporaries. He never seemed like a real person to me, there were always so many barriers up between him and the rest of us. Now we know why. And curses to anyone who knew, and let him continue his path of destruction on the most innocent amongst us. Precious gifted, blessed survivor, Jan!
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meg1
Junior Member
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Post by meg1 on Sept 24, 2023 2:43:17 GMT -5
And now there is an open pending case. My rage at the complicity is overwhelming tonight. Jan's flipbook made me weep. What a brave brave woman!
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Post by Dan on Sept 24, 2023 12:25:19 GMT -5
And now there is an open pending case. My rage at the complicity is overwhelming tonight. Jan's flipbook made me weep. What a brave brave woman!
I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book?
I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems?
I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2023 15:01:39 GMT -5
And now there is an open pending case. My rage at the complicity is overwhelming tonight. Jan's flipbook made me weep. What a brave brave woman! I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book? I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems? I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
Attitudes like yours are a big part of the reason victims don't report child sexual abuse, which is a big part of the reason abuse continues. You should do a lot more reasearch on child sexual abuse and the life-changing impact it has on victims. Seriously, you are clueless.
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 24, 2023 20:10:25 GMT -5
And now there is an open pending case. My rage at the complicity is overwhelming tonight. Jan's flipbook made me weep. What a brave brave woman!
I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book?
I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems?
I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
I know that things don't always come across in emessaging like they do in conversation, but I am seeing a lack of compassion and empathy with the victim(s).
We are all built differently and react differently to life's events. Having met and dealt with victims personally at a professional and personal level, I know just how scarred for life most of them are. I have met a couple who have simply "put it in the filing cabinet and closed the draw", but they are in the minority. Some, fifty years plus, still suffer, and I know of one professional chap, who has had numerous counseling sessions, and is still very much affected. For example, certain noises at night are a trigger for him. I know a woman in her 50's who was quite promiscuous in her younger years, and struggled in relationships, due to being abused in her teens by her Uncle. After much counseling she seems to be healed and is in a stable relationship now.
In my younger years, I tended to have the "get over it, stuff happens" type of attitude. You know, take a concrete pill. However, because of my professional life exposing me to these situations and people, I have learned a lot. It's not religion that did it to me, it's simply life, maturity, being a parent, and becoming less ignorant, and hopefully less arrogant.
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2023 20:17:03 GMT -5
I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book? I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems? I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
I know that things don't always come across in emessaging like they do in conversation, but I am seeing a lack of compassion and empathy with the victim(s). We are all built differently and react differently to life's events. Having met and dealt with victims personally at a professional and personal level, I know just how scarred for life most of them are. I have met a couple who have simply "put it in the filing cabinet and closed the draw", but they are in the minority. Some, fifty years plus, still suffer, and I know of one professional chap, who has had numerous counseling sessions, and is still very much affected. For example, certain noises at night are a trigger for him. I know a woman in her 50's who was quite promiscuous in her younger years, and struggled in relationships, due to being abused in her teens by her Uncle. After much counseling she seems to be healed and is in a stable relationship now. In my younger years, I tended to have the "get over it, stuff happens" type of attitude. You know, take a concrete pill. However, because of my professional life exposing me to these situations and people, I have learned a lot. It's not religion that did it to me, it's simply life, maturity, being a parent, and becoming less ignorant, and hopefully less arrogant.
Very good post Prags. I'm not so sure Dan lacks compassion so much as an understanding of the impact CSA has on the victims. As with yourself, I think Dan would gain compassion along with a better understanding.
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Post by verna on Sept 24, 2023 22:41:24 GMT -5
I know that things don't always come across in emessaging like they do in conversation, but I am seeing a lack of compassion and empathy with the victim(s). We are all built differently and react differently to life's events. Having met and dealt with victims personally at a professional and personal level, I know just how scarred for life most of them are. I have met a couple who have simply "put it in the filing cabinet and closed the draw", but they are in the minority. Some, fifty years plus, still suffer, and I know of one professional chap, who has had numerous counseling sessions, and is still very much affected. For example, certain noises at night are a trigger for him. I know a woman in her 50's who was quite promiscuous in her younger years, and struggled in relationships, due to being abused in her teens by her Uncle. After much counseling she seems to be healed and is in a stable relationship now. In my younger years, I tended to have the "get over it, stuff happens" type of attitude. You know, take a concrete pill. However, because of my professional life exposing me to these situations and people, I have learned a lot. It's not religion that did it to me, it's simply life, maturity, being a parent, and becoming less ignorant, and hopefully less arrogant.
Very good post Prags. I'm not so sure Dan lacks compassion so much as an understanding of the impact CSA has on the victims. As with yourself, I think Dan would gain compassion along with a better understanding. Sometimes I wonder if Dan is responding out of personal trauma which he dares not acknowledge. Many times he has challenged me re: my struggle to βget overβ things that I have experienced. Sometimes I think he protests too much. Itβs not just CSA, itβs trauma of any sort. I do not see it as weakness to struggle, as he does. I think it is sad to be unable to feel compassion and so I feel a little sorry for Dan - and yes frequently annoyed.
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Post by Dan on Sept 24, 2023 23:02:08 GMT -5
I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book? I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems? I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
Attitudes like yours are a big part of the reason victims don't report child sexual abuse, which is a big part of the reason abuse continues. You should do a lot more research on child sexual abuse and the life-changing impact it has on victims. Seriously, you are clueless.
I suppose there could be some post-traumatic stress disorder that I don't understand.. I disagree that victims don't come forward because of me or that abuse continues because of me. But I reckon everyone is different and its possible that women and children have a bigger problem coping with abuse. Everyone experiences some sort of trauma in life and need to deal with it individually, but I can't grasp how it could still be an issue decades after the fact? I understand that its not something a person can forget, but it just seems a pity that they can't release painful memories and get on with a normal life. How does dwelling on something awful help resolve anything? I am fully cognizant that not everyone is like me and may need help dealing with a violent or sexually abusive past. I don't lack of compassion for anyone that's gone through hell, but why relive a horrible episode every day of your life?
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Post by Dan on Sept 24, 2023 23:19:27 GMT -5
Very good post Prags. I'm not so sure Dan lacks compassion so much as an understanding of the impact CSA has on the victims. As with yourself, I think Dan would gain compassion along with a better understanding. Sometimes I wonder if Dan is responding out of personal trauma which he dares not acknowledge. Many times he has challenged me re: my struggle to βget overβ things that I have experienced. Sometimes I think he protests too much. Itβs not just CSA, itβs trauma of any sort. I do not see it as weakness to struggle, as he does. I think it is sad to be unable to feel compassion and so I feel a little sorry for Dan - and yes frequently annoyed.
I think I just have a different approach. If you have a friend who's an alcoholic, is it more compassionate to accept their excuses for being a drunk or to encourage them to put their problems on a shelf and stop using alcohol as a crutch. I agree that its not a weakness to struggle, but crying in your beer and never moving forward isn't struggling, its surrendering.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 24, 2023 23:37:32 GMT -5
Very good post Prags. I'm not so sure Dan lacks compassion so much as an understanding of the impact CSA has on the victims. As with yourself, I think Dan would gain compassion along with a better understanding. Sometimes I wonder if Dan is responding out of personal trauma which he dares not acknowledge. Many times he has challenged me re: my struggle to βget overβ things that I have experienced. Sometimes I think he protests too much. Itβs not just CSA, itβs trauma of any sort. I do not see it as weakness to struggle, as he does. I think it is sad to be unable to feel compassion and so I feel a little sorry for Dan - and yes frequently annoyed. I suspect Dan has lived a comparatively pampered and protected life. His biggest worries have been about his own financial difficulties.
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 25, 2023 1:07:25 GMT -5
Everyone has some time of trauma in their life, one way or another. No-one goes through life being 100% charmed. We all deal with it.
But sexual assault, particularly in a child, often affects their sexual function and perception of what is normal. Many prostitutes have experienced sexual abuse while young, for example. Others experience sexual dysfunction. Some cannot ever bear to be touched. The psychology of this is way above my pay grade, but I have seen it in real life, with one of the friends in the church, a couple now outside the church, and in my professional capacity.
These issues do not go away by themselves, nor do they cure themselves. Some victims become suicidal.
They need our helpful compassion in a practical sense, and justice must be seen to be done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2023 2:36:37 GMT -5
And now there is an open pending case. My rage at the complicity is overwhelming tonight. Jan's flipbook made me weep. What a brave brave woman!
I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book?
I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems?
I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
Trauma can do some weird sheet to people...it does in fact last a lifetime...quite a few though after some serious and Longterm care do recover a bit but not 100%....
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Post by verna on Sept 25, 2023 10:05:18 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder if Dan is responding out of personal trauma which he dares not acknowledge. Many times he has challenged me re: my struggle to βget overβ things that I have experienced. Sometimes I think he protests too much. Itβs not just CSA, itβs trauma of any sort. I do not see it as weakness to struggle, as he does. I think it is sad to be unable to feel compassion and so I feel a little sorry for Dan - and yes frequently annoyed. I suspect Dan has lived a comparatively pampered and protected life. His biggest worries have been about his own financial difficulties. Youβre probably right. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I try not to respond to him anymore. I used to try to explain when he expressed his inability to understand but to no avail. Just more discounting. So I try not to respond anymore. No point. I agree with Fixit. It is attitudes like his that keep victims from speaking. Hopefully someone will be able to help him understand but I really doubt it if he remained unaffected by Janβs heartfelt account.
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2023 16:47:44 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder if Dan is responding out of personal trauma which he dares not acknowledge. Many times he has challenged me re: my struggle to βget overβ things that I have experienced. Sometimes I think he protests too much. Itβs not just CSA, itβs trauma of any sort. I do not see it as weakness to struggle, as he does. I think it is sad to be unable to feel compassion and so I feel a little sorry for Dan - and yes frequently annoyed. I think I just have a different approach. If you have a friend who's an alcoholic, is it more compassionate to accept their excuses for being a drunk or to encourage them to put their problems on a shelf and stop using alcohol as a crutch. I agree that its not a weakness to struggle, but crying in your beer and never moving forward isn't struggling, its surrendering. Thanks for expressing your opinions and thought processes Dan. I doubt there is anything that can be compared with CSA. Not addiction, not broken bones, not physical trauma. As Prags posted, it's way above the pay grade of most of us. Children are to be nurtured and protected. To mess with them sexually does damage that can't be undone.
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Post by Dan on Sept 25, 2023 22:32:28 GMT -5
Sometimes I wonder if Dan is responding out of personal trauma which he dares not acknowledge. Many times he has challenged me re: my struggle to βget overβ things that I have experienced. Sometimes I think he protests too much. Itβs not just CSA, itβs trauma of any sort. I do not see it as weakness to struggle, as he does. I think it is sad to be unable to feel compassion and so I feel a little sorry for Dan - and yes frequently annoyed. I suspect Dan has lived a comparatively pampered and protected life. His biggest worries have been about his own financial difficulties. Naw, nothing pampered or protected, I've been to hell and back several times And I may have complained about a bad investment or 2, but I'm financially secure and have no worries... yet!
I just don't think that commiserating with someone over a past abusive experience is very helpful because it leaves them in the same spot. I guess I'd just personally prefer an upbeat approach to help a person overcome the negative and get on with life. Compassion yes, but no progression occurs from just wallowing in self-pity with them. But mine is obviously a minority opinion.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 25, 2023 22:39:40 GMT -5
And now there is an open pending case. My rage at the complicity is overwhelming tonight. Jan's flipbook made me weep. What a brave brave woman! I read through 15 pages.. The woman sounds like an emotional wreck. I don't get why she felt the necessity to write such a long biography detailing every part of her life? Boring, I wish she could have just gotten to the point! None-the-less, from the 15 pages I red, she needs to see a shrink and work through all her confusion. Hope she deals with her issues, dwelling in pity just amplifies depression. Maybe she did, I didn't read the back of the book? I hope she pulled her act together. I know some of these victims are now feeling a need to reveal every aspect of their life, but it almost seems like their basking for attention. I just don't see how it can be psychologically healthy to dwell on negative things that happened decades ago, but maybe its a therapeutic way for her to work through her problems? I'm a confront it, deal with it, and move on type of person, so I guess I have trouble relating to people who suppress their emotions and can't cope because they're content to wallow in their misery year after year. That's not a brave soul, its more descriptive of a defeated person who has surrendered to abuse and allowed others to ruin their life. Fighting back is brave, I hope that's how her story ended?
To be fair, Dan, you should have read more than 15 pages. I'll bet, that after every sentence you did read, you had a least one judgmental thought, and probably several. I read the whole 130 pages through. Then I read it again. And then one more time. There is so much I do not understand. I do not know Vanessa. I do know her family, and her sister always struck me as someone extra special. To me, this is not a person who has been dwelling on things that happened a few decades ago, but a person of courage and conviction, who has now allowed herself to recall events that affected her more than than she ever thought or ever knew. She is a warrior who is confronting issues to recover herself, and to try to rescue her sister, who was not nearly as capable of dealing with what happened to them. On page 1-1 (which you read?): "My place is not a place I would have chosen, but it is mine to do This is a very difficult message to carry. Parts will difficult for you to read." There is so much I do not understand. But I do have respect for how incredibly difficult it has likely been for her to share what she has. My hope, is that she can help break through the wall of indifference and of silence that 2X2 management has seemingly erected in response to so much wrongdoing. And that it will help members who have consequently decided to "look away" to have the courage to be honest and forthright in all their thoughts and actions surrounding these issues. I think, like you, I have led an incredibly privileged life. I do not want that to make me deaf, dumb, and blind to other people's experiences and pain, though I am very aware that it can.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 25, 2023 23:32:23 GMT -5
I suspect Dan has lived a comparatively pampered and protected life. His biggest worries have been about his own financial difficulties. Naw, nothing pampered or protected, I've been to hell and back several times And I may have complained about a bad investment or 2, but I'm financially secure and have no worries... yet!
I just don't think that commiserating with someone over a past abusive experience is very helpful because it leaves them in the same spot. I guess I'd just personally prefer an upbeat approach to help a person overcome the negative and get on with life. Compassion yes, but no progression occurs from just wallowing in self-pity with them. But mine is obviously a minority opinion. Kind of like -- I care, but don't bother me with it. I know exactly how you feel about it. If they bother you with it, they're "wallowing". They wallow because they're not getting what they NEED. Even pigs wallow when they have nowhere else to turn. Do you know what happens when they stop wallowing? ?
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Post by Dan on Sept 26, 2023 0:38:33 GMT -5
To be fair, Dan, you should have read more than 15 pages. I'll bet, that after every sentence you did read, you had a least one judgmental thought, and probably several. I read the whole 130 pages through. Then I read it again. And then one more time. There is so much I do not understand. I do not know Vanessa. I do know her family, and her sister always struck me as someone extra special. To me, this is not a person who has been dwelling on things that happened a few decades ago, but a person of courage and conviction, who has now allowed herself to recall events that affected her more than than she ever thought or ever knew. She is a warrior who is confronting issues to recover herself, and to try to rescue her sister, who was not nearly as capable of dealing with what happened to them. On page 1-1 (which you read?): "My place is not a place I would have chosen, but it is mine to do This is a very difficult message to carry. Parts will difficult for you to read." There is so much I do not understand. But I do have respect for how incredibly difficult it has likely been for her to share what she has. My hope, is that she can help break through the wall of indifference and of silence that 2X2 management has seemingly erected in response to so much wrongdoing. And that it will help members who have consequently decided to "look away" to have the courage to be honest and forthright in all their thoughts and actions surrounding these issues. I think, like you, I have led an incredibly privileged life. I do not want that to make me deaf, dumb, and blind to other people's experiences and pain, though I am very aware that it can.
To be fair, I went ahead and red the rest of the story to reassess my initial impression ... I reckon its a good share for others who may have gone through similar assaults. How she suppressed her nightmare and then finally came to terms and treatment would no doubt be helpful to others.
Like you, there's much I don't understand. How anyone could blackout such horrible assaults is beyond my comprehension. I don't understand why a kid would endure what she did and not tell anyone. Its was good to see that she finally woke-up and confronted things, as she wrote on page 27; "This was stupid. This was weak. Quit being a basket-case. You know what you have to do - Do it."
I'll admit that I'm not Mr sensitivity, I have compassion and empathy, but I get angry and want to attack the problem. But that's just how I solve things (controlled anger). I don't have a passive temperament, so its difficult to understand how people can lay down and take abuse. Being over-powered is one thing, but staying silent and pretending nothing happened is puzzling? If I had been around and knew what that perverted uncle was doing to those girls, I would have killed the s.o.b.
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Post by Dan on Sept 26, 2023 0:48:28 GMT -5
Kind of like -- I care, but don't bother me with it. I know exactly how you feel about it. If they bother you with it, they're "wallowing". They wallow because they're not getting what they NEED. Even pigs wallow when they have nowhere else to turn. Do you know what happens when they stop wallowing? ?
People care in different ways, your method might be to shed tears with the victims, mine would be to castrate or eliminate the offender... I imagine survivors would appreciate both sympathy and justice.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2023 1:07:55 GMT -5
Kind of like -- I care, but don't bother me with it. I know exactly how you feel about it. If they bother you with it, they're "wallowing". They wallow because they're not getting what they NEED. Even pigs wallow when they have nowhere else to turn. Do you know what happens when they stop wallowing? ? People care in different ways, your method might be to shed tears with the victims
That can actually be helpful. [/div][/quote] That does nothing for the victim/sufferer. Justice is appreciated, but it cures nothing. Also, it's not your place to punish the offender. You're more impatient than caring, I think.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2023 3:08:35 GMT -5
I don't have a passive temperament, so its difficult to understand how people can lay down and take abuse. Being over-powered is one thing, but staying silent and pretending nothing happened is puzzling? If I had been around and knew what that perverted uncle was doing to those girls, I would have killed the s.o.b. You're thinking it through with an adult mind. Until you can get down to a child's level you can't even begin to understand. Have you ever seen a little child flailing around underwater? They're in a situation where they haven't a clue what to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2023 9:08:27 GMT -5
Kind of like -- I care, but don't bother me with it. I know exactly how you feel about it. If they bother you with it, they're "wallowing". They wallow because they're not getting what they NEED. Even pigs wallow when they have nowhere else to turn. Do you know what happens when they stop wallowing? ?
People care in different ways, your method might be to shed tears with the victims, mine would be to castrate or eliminate the offender... I imagine survivors would appreciate both sympathy and justice.
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Post by Dan on Sept 26, 2023 22:34:13 GMT -5
Knowing that the perpetrator is no longer a danger and will not be able to hurt anyone else would likely bring a victim some peace of mind. Would those girls rather of heard, 'Your uncle is coming to visit' or 'Your uncle is in jail'? I'm sure the latter would have given them satisfaction and relief. Your correct, I'd have absolutely no patience with a child molester, but consider that getting mad is caring.
You're thinking it through with an adult mind. Until you can get down to a child's level you can't even begin to understand. Have you ever seen a little child flailing around underwater? They're in a situation where they haven't a clue what to do.
Most children know to go to their parents, whether under water or under a pervert, you call on Mom & Dad because they generally know what to do. Parents are naturally a child's safety-net, but something convinced or conditioned those girls to keep it secret, hide, and remain silent.. That's what I don't understand.
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Post by fixit on Sept 27, 2023 14:50:38 GMT -5
Knowing that the perpetrator is no longer a danger and will not be able to hurt anyone else would likely bring a victim some peace of mind. Would those girls rather of heard, 'Your uncle is coming to visit' or 'Your uncle is in jail'? I'm sure the latter would have given them satisfaction and relief. Your correct, I'd have absolutely no patience with a child molester, but consider that getting mad is caring.
You're thinking it through with an adult mind. Until you can get down to a child's level you can't even begin to understand. Have you ever seen a little child flailing around underwater? They're in a situation where they haven't a clue what to do. Most children know to go to their parents, whether under water or under a pervert, you call on Mom & Dad because they generally know what to do. Parents are naturally a child's safety-net, but something convinced or conditioned those girls to keep it secret, hide, and remain silent.. That's what I don't understand.
Did you notice the threats made against this victim?
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Post by snow on Sept 27, 2023 16:14:14 GMT -5
To be fair, Dan, you should have read more than 15 pages. I'll bet, that after every sentence you did read, you had a least one judgmental thought, and probably several. I read the whole 130 pages through. Then I read it again. And then one more time. There is so much I do not understand. I do not know Vanessa. I do know her family, and her sister always struck me as someone extra special. To me, this is not a person who has been dwelling on things that happened a few decades ago, but a person of courage and conviction, who has now allowed herself to recall events that affected her more than than she ever thought or ever knew. She is a warrior who is confronting issues to recover herself, and to try to rescue her sister, who was not nearly as capable of dealing with what happened to them. On page 1-1 (which you read?): "My place is not a place I would have chosen, but it is mine to do This is a very difficult message to carry. Parts will difficult for you to read." There is so much I do not understand. But I do have respect for how incredibly difficult it has likely been for her to share what she has. My hope, is that she can help break through the wall of indifference and of silence that 2X2 management has seemingly erected in response to so much wrongdoing. And that it will help members who have consequently decided to "look away" to have the courage to be honest and forthright in all their thoughts and actions surrounding these issues. I think, like you, I have led an incredibly privileged life. I do not want that to make me deaf, dumb, and blind to other people's experiences and pain, though I am very aware that it can. To be fair, I went ahead and red the rest of the story to reassess my initial impression ... I reckon its a good share for others who may have gone through similar assaults. How she suppressed her nightmare and then finally came to terms and treatment would no doubt be helpful to others. Like you, there's much I don't understand. How anyone could blackout such horrible assaults is beyond my comprehension. I don't understand why a kid would endure what she did and not tell anyone. Its was good to see that she finally woke-up and confronted things, as she wrote on page 27; "This was stupid. This was weak. Quit being a basket-case. You know what you have to do - Do it."
I'll admit that I'm not Mr sensitivity, I have compassion and empathy, but I get angry and want to attack the problem. But that's just how I solve things (controlled anger). I don't have a passive temperament, so its difficult to understand how people can lay down and take abuse. Being over-powered is one thing, but staying silent and pretending nothing happened is puzzling? If I had been around and knew what that perverted uncle was doing to those girls, I would have killed the s.o.b.
I am coming in quite late to this conversation, but I just wanted to add something. CSA rewires the brain. If it was traumatic enough there is dissociation involved because it's too much for the brain to process, too horrific. Sometimes when abuse has continued for a long period of time and the person cannot deal with it in a normal way, there is actually a split in personalities. Different personalities handle different aspects of that person's life, often without the other personalities knowing about each other. The people who have had this happen describe it as having black holes in their lives where they can't remember things they should be able to remember. It takes a lot of therapy to bring these personalities back into a cohesive whole. Sometimes it's not possible. So when you ask how they can't remember things, it's likely because the brain literally shut down to protect their sanity. Years later something can trigger the memories but usually only if they feel like they are in a safe enough place for it to finally reveal itself.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 27, 2023 20:21:17 GMT -5
To be fair, I went ahead and red the rest of the story to reassess my initial impression ... I reckon its a good share for others who may have gone through similar assaults. How she suppressed her nightmare and then finally came to terms and treatment would no doubt be helpful to others. Like you, there's much I don't understand. How anyone could blackout such horrible assaults is beyond my comprehension. I don't understand why a kid would endure what she did and not tell anyone. Its was good to see that she finally woke-up and confronted things, as she wrote on page 27; "This was stupid. This was weak. Quit being a basket-case. You know what you have to do - Do it."
I'll admit that I'm not Mr sensitivity, I have compassion and empathy, but I get angry and want to attack the problem. But that's just how I solve things (controlled anger). I don't have a passive temperament, so its difficult to understand how people can lay down and take abuse. Being over-powered is one thing, but staying silent and pretending nothing happened is puzzling? If I had been around and knew what that perverted uncle was doing to those girls, I would have killed the s.o.b.
I am coming in quite late to this conversation, but I just wanted to add something. CSA rewires the brain. If it was traumatic enough there is dissociation involved because it's too much for the brain to process, too horrific. Sometimes when abuse has continued for a long period of time and the person cannot deal with it in a normal way, there is actually a split in personalities. Different personalities handle different aspects of that person's life, often without the other personalities knowing about each other. The people who have had this happen describe it as having black holes in their lives where they can't remember things they should be able to remember. It takes a lot of therapy to bring these personalities back into a cohesive whole. Sometimes it's not possible. So when you ask how they can't remember things, it's likely because the brain literally shut down to protect their sanity. Years later something can trigger the memories but usually only if they feel like they are in a safe enough place for it to finally reveal itself. You succinctly expressed thoughts I was trying to gather. I had a Prof, in an intro Psychology course, who was an expert on Alters (they probably call them something else these days?). She never shared with us, but I always had the feeling that she was speaking from lived experience. The key is how young you are when the predator first gets access to you, and the supports you have later on. Having "Alters" is a powerful survival mechanism. I believe both Dan and I grew up in families where we knew our parents were solidly in our corner. I was explicitly taught that I had a right to personal boundaries, and to even be impolite if anyone made me uncomfortable in any way. I do not know why, but after my mother had died, someone close to her told me of John Sadler, a worker in her area when she would have been 11 or 12 years old, who took liberties with young females, even in close proximity to their parents. I do not know, but I suspect that I possibly have him to thank for the thorough predator-proofing I received as a child. A young girl in our circle became pregnant when I was ~7-8? years old, was sent to an unwed mothers home, and the child was adopted out. Though it was not openly discussed within our extended family, my parents told me, and let me know that if that happened to me (which, of course, it shouldn't), they would raise the child. My parents were solidly in my corner. Still, when I was 12- 13 years old, and my next older brother was 14 - 15 years old, Clifford Fernie, a worker who travelled with hair clippers in his luggage, and routinely gave young boys/men "whitewalls" in the 1970's, cornered my brother in the kitchen of my family home. He kept insisting that he would "just take a little off". This brother and I have never had much real connection. but I gained a great deal of respect for him that day, when he steadfastly refused. However, neither of us ever told either of our parents of the incident. My Dad died when I was 25 , my Mom when I turned 30. Why didn't we ever tell, even later on? Yeah, the situation was handled. We knew that my parents would have been completely supportive, but we somehow did not want the unpleasantness that we knew would ensue? Kids, even older, process things differently.
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Post by Annan on Sept 28, 2023 6:50:17 GMT -5
I am coming in quite late to this conversation, but I just wanted to add something. CSA rewires the brain. If it was traumatic enough there is dissociation involved because it's too much for the brain to process, too horrific. Sometimes when abuse has continued for a long period of time and the person cannot deal with it in a normal way, there is actually a split in personalities. Different personalities handle different aspects of that person's life, often without the other personalities knowing about each other. The people who have had this happen describe it as having black holes in their lives where they can't remember things they should be able to remember. It takes a lot of therapy to bring these personalities back into a cohesive whole. Sometimes it's not possible. So when you ask how they can't remember things, it's likely because the brain literally shut down to protect their sanity. Years later something can trigger the memories but usually only if they feel like they are in a safe enough place for it to finally reveal itself. Wow. I wasn't sexually abused, but mentally and physically abused. I have holes in my memory. Others tell me I functioned fine during those times. After I left my parent's home, I lived the abuse over and over in my mind. I lived in my head while other "persons" lived my life for me. It took a lot of strength to keep the others from making an appearance. They kept me sane as they were able to handle the memories of abuse while I was not. After awhile, I was able to shake off the other "persons" and come into my own. My dad dying last year enabled me to over come my severe psoriasis. I am truly alive and in control of my own life for the first time in my life.
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Post by deepdeep on Sept 28, 2023 12:54:36 GMT -5
Checking back in to these boards from time to time...very thought provoking. My 2 cents...trauma and the appropriate response to trauma (all types, not only sexual) is multi-dimensional. It is unhelpful to say that the right way to deal with "normal" trauma is to do something, and then to claim that sexual trauma is a special case that won't be helped by any of the methods that are helpful to other traumas...it's a bad starting place. All trauma is indeed separate but the path to healing in all cases will have very similar markers. We are all far more alike than we are different.
In general, the acknowledgement of the suffering of traumatized people (again....sexual and otherwise) was something that was historically suppressed (probably still is). Some of that suppression is pro-social....by that I mean that the world cannot grind to a halt every time somebody is traumatized....there has to be room to suppress one's own awareness of suffering (be it your own or somebody else's) to navigate exigent circumstances. The value of mental and emotional strength to overcome was highly sought after and encouraged....as it should be. However, this led to getting the cart before the horse...strength, though valuable, is built over time. You cannot just will yourself to have it.
Words like "get over it" or "put it behind you" were used a lot. Nowadays those words are considered to minimize peoples experience even while some people who are greatly harmed by trauma are indeed able to "get over it" and "put it behind" themselves. It's not that admonishing somebody to "get over it" is not something they want to do...it is that "getting over it" is the end goal ... not the beginning. It's kind of like telling a beginning carpenter to go "build this grand curved staircase"....the desire and raw tools may be there but the ability to make it happen does not exist yet.
I should note that "getting over it" is not to forget or deny that the traumatizing event never happened. Outwardly the person who has moved through their trauma will not present as a traumatized person to the casual observer. This is a version of Dan Griffin's promise #3...We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. The event just becomes a part of the traumatized person's past and it's effect on the present has no more energy to harm.
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