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Post by snow on Sept 28, 2023 13:05:36 GMT -5
I am coming in quite late to this conversation, but I just wanted to add something. CSA rewires the brain. If it was traumatic enough there is dissociation involved because it's too much for the brain to process, too horrific. Sometimes when abuse has continued for a long period of time and the person cannot deal with it in a normal way, there is actually a split in personalities. Different personalities handle different aspects of that person's life, often without the other personalities knowing about each other. The people who have had this happen describe it as having black holes in their lives where they can't remember things they should be able to remember. It takes a lot of therapy to bring these personalities back into a cohesive whole. Sometimes it's not possible. So when you ask how they can't remember things, it's likely because the brain literally shut down to protect their sanity. Years later something can trigger the memories but usually only if they feel like they are in a safe enough place for it to finally reveal itself. You succinctly expressed thoughts I was trying to gather. I had a Prof, in an intro Psychology course, who was an expert on Alters (they probably call them something else these days?). She never shared with us, but I always had the feeling that she was speaking from lived experience. The key is how young you are when the predator first gets access to you, and the supports you have later on. Having "Alters" is a powerful survival mechanism. I believe both Dan and I grew up in families where we knew our parents were solidly in our corner. I was explicitly taught that I had a right to personal boundaries, and to even be impolite if anyone made me uncomfortable in any way. I do not know why, but after my mother had died, someone close to her told me of John Sadler, a worker in her area when she would have been 11 or 12 years old, who took liberties with young females, even in close proximity to their parents. I do not know, but I suspect that I possibly have him to thank for the thorough predator-proofing I received as a child. A young girl in our circle became pregnant when I was ~7-8? years old, was sent to an unwed mothers home, and the child was adopted out. Though it was not openly discussed within our extended family, my parents told me, and let me know that if that happened to me (which, of course, it shouldn't), they would raise the child. My parents were solidly in my corner. Still, when I was 12- 13 years old, and my next older brother was 14 - 15 years old, Clifford Fernie, a worker who travelled with hair clippers in his luggage, and routinely gave young boys/men "whitewalls" in the 1970's, cornered my brother in the kitchen of my family home. He kept insisting that he would "just take a little off". This brother and I have never had much real connection. but I gained a great deal of respect for him that day, when he steadfastly refused. However, neither of us ever told either of our parents of the incident. My Dad died when I was 25 , my Mom when I turned 30. Why didn't we ever tell, even later on? Yeah, the situation was handled. We knew that my parents would have been completely supportive, but we somehow did not want the unpleasantness that we knew would ensue? Kids, even older, process things differently. You're right. Older kids do process things differently. I never told my parents about my sexual assault at 17. I knew it would tear them up and they couldn't change anything so I didn't tell them in order to protect them. I think even at that age I realized just how sheltered they were and psychologically fragile when it came to violent incidents. My mom couldn't watch the news if there was anything on it that was rather nasty so I knew she couldn't handle it. Looking back I see that I did protect them in that way most of my life.
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Post by snow on Sept 28, 2023 13:08:52 GMT -5
I am coming in quite late to this conversation, but I just wanted to add something. CSA rewires the brain. If it was traumatic enough there is dissociation involved because it's too much for the brain to process, too horrific. Sometimes when abuse has continued for a long period of time and the person cannot deal with it in a normal way, there is actually a split in personalities. Different personalities handle different aspects of that person's life, often without the other personalities knowing about each other. The people who have had this happen describe it as having black holes in their lives where they can't remember things they should be able to remember. It takes a lot of therapy to bring these personalities back into a cohesive whole. Sometimes it's not possible. So when you ask how they can't remember things, it's likely because the brain literally shut down to protect their sanity. Years later something can trigger the memories but usually only if they feel like they are in a safe enough place for it to finally reveal itself. Wow. I wasn't sexually abused, but mentally and psychically abused. I have holes in my memory. Others tell me I functioned fine during those times. After I left my parent's home, I lived the abuse over and over in my mind. I lived in my head while other "persons" lived my life for me. It took a lot of strength to keep the others from making an appearance. They kept me sane as they were able to handle the memories of abuse while I was not. After awhile, I was able to shake off the other "persons" and come into my own. My dad dying last year enabled me to over come my severe psoriasis. I am truly alive and in control of my own life for the first time in my life. So you had what Sharon refers to as 'alters'? I am so glad that you have been able to bring them all together. Not an easy journey. Hugs Annan
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Post by snow on Sept 28, 2023 13:15:39 GMT -5
Checking back in to these boards from time to time...very thought provoking. My 2 cents...trauma and the appropriate response to trauma (all types, not only sexual) is multi-dimensional. It is unhelpful to say that the right way to deal with "normal" trauma is to do something, and then to claim that sexual trauma is a special case that won't be helped by any of the methods that are helpful to other traumas...it's a bad starting place. All trauma is indeed separate but the path to healing in all cases will have very similar markers. We are all far more alike than we are different. In general, the acknowledgement of the suffering of traumatized people (again....sexual and otherwise) was something that was historically suppressed (probably still is). Some of that suppression is pro-social....by that I mean that the world cannot grind to a halt every time somebody is traumatized....there has to be room to suppress one's own awareness of suffering (be it your own or somebody else's) to navigate exigent circumstances. The value of mental and emotional strength to overcome was highly sought after and encouraged....as it should be. However, this led to getting the cart before the horse...strength, though valuable, is built over time. You cannot just will yourself to have it. Words like "get over it" or "put it behind you" were used a lot. Nowadays those words are considered to minimize peoples experience even while some people who are greatly harmed by trauma are indeed able to "get over it" and "put it behind" themselves. It's not that admonishing somebody to "get over it" is not something they want to do...it is that "getting over it" is the end goal ... not the beginning. It's kind of like telling a beginning carpenter to go "build this grand curved staircase"....the desire and raw tools may be there but the ability to make it happen does not exist yet. I should note that "getting over it" is not to forget or deny that the traumatizing event never happened. Outwardly the person who has moved through their trauma will not present as a traumatized person to the casual observer. This is a version of Dan Griffin's promise #3... We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. The event just becomes a part of the traumatized person's past and it's effect on the present has no more energy to harm. I like how you presented this. I found that after my experience that I had a determination and a strength that I never had before. I lost my fear. I had experienced the worst and lived and it was partly due to how I handled the situation at the time. I knew exactly how I would ever handle the situation in the future if it ever arose. But I figured it never would because I was no longer a submissive person. Because I was older (17) I had that ability. It's important to note that much younger children would not have that because they were still so vulnerable and dependent on adults that might be abusing them. How much harder it would be for someone who suffered from CSA.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 28, 2023 16:38:49 GMT -5
You're right. Older kids do process things differently. I never told my parents about my sexual assault at 17. I knew it would tear them up and they couldn't change anything so I didn't tell them in order to protect them. I think even at that age I realized just how sheltered they were and psychologically fragile when it came to violent incidents. My mom couldn't watch the news if there was anything on it that was rather nasty so I knew she couldn't handle it. Looking back I see that I did protect them in that way most of my life. I like how you presented this. I found that after my experience that I had a determination and a strength that I never had before. I lost my fear. I had experienced the worst and lived and it was partly due to how I handled the situation at the time. I knew exactly how I would ever handle the situation in the future if it ever arose. But I figured it never would because I was no longer a submissive person. Because I was older (17) I had that ability. It's important to note that much younger children would not have that because they were still so vulnerable and dependent on adults that might be abusing them. How much harder it would be for someone who suffered from CSA. Amazing that you had that kind of strength at 17. That is so horrible, but to have had that kind of determination and strength at that age would have also been such a gift for the rest of your life. There is no comparison in degree between a proposed hair-cutting and a sexual assault. Perhaps there was an element of "protecting" our parents by not telling them, but it probably was more just avoiding awkwardness and unpleasantness, for a situation that had already been adequately handled. As I look back on my life, there were many things I purposely did not share with my parents as I was growing up. Perhaps there was an element of protecting them in it, but it was probably a pretty normal progression through life. When a really big issue came up in my later 20's, I went right to my mom, my dad was no longer here. She did not disappoint in her wisdom, advice, (or I suspect) her behind-the-scenes support. I can relate to having had a traumatic experience that eventually resulted in me having a determination and a strength that I never had before, but that did not come until I was 40. I no longer had parents, and though that made it much harder for me, it also required me to stand on my own, as I may never have done otherwise. Now, as I approach 65, I feel formidable, though I am aware of the possibility of diminishing physical and mental capacities in coming years. I have the attitude of "Just try me", when it comes to trespassing on me or on anyone I truly care about. What pisses me off about the Bruce Waddell stuff is that he basically pled out to "playing doctor" with his sister's children, ( wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-ca-offenders/bruce-waddell/), while there were far more egregious sins on his account. I am still grappling with the enormity of trespassing against children before they have had the chance of achieving personhood. I think of Matthew 18:5-7 KJV And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." I used to think of these "little ones", as anyone who was vulnerable, and lacked sophistication, for whatever reason. The people in the Alberta fiasco, for example. Willis Propp toured the Holy Land around this time period, and mentioned seeing millstones such as these, and I wondered if he ever really made the connection. But, I have since come to believe that there is a special place reserved in hell for ones who have truly offended the real "little ones". Not to mention the ones who have covered up for them. Here's looking at you (again) Dale Schultz.
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Post by snow on Sept 29, 2023 12:30:11 GMT -5
You're right. Older kids do process things differently. I never told my parents about my sexual assault at 17. I knew it would tear them up and they couldn't change anything so I didn't tell them in order to protect them. I think even at that age I realized just how sheltered they were and psychologically fragile when it came to violent incidents. My mom couldn't watch the news if there was anything on it that was rather nasty so I knew she couldn't handle it. Looking back I see that I did protect them in that way most of my life. I like how you presented this. I found that after my experience that I had a determination and a strength that I never had before. I lost my fear. I had experienced the worst and lived and it was partly due to how I handled the situation at the time. I knew exactly how I would ever handle the situation in the future if it ever arose. But I figured it never would because I was no longer a submissive person. Because I was older (17) I had that ability. It's important to note that much younger children would not have that because they were still so vulnerable and dependent on adults that might be abusing them. How much harder it would be for someone who suffered from CSA. Amazing that you had that kind of strength at 17. That is so horrible, but to have had that kind of determination and strength at that age would have also been such a gift for the rest of your life. There is no comparison in degree between a proposed hair-cutting and a sexual assault. Perhaps there was an element of "protecting" our parents by not telling them, but it probably was more just avoiding awkwardness and unpleasantness, for a situation that had already been adequately handled. As I look back on my life, there were many things I purposely did not share with my parents as I was growing up. Perhaps there was an element of protecting them in it, but it was probably a pretty normal progression through life. When a really big issue came up in my later 20's, I went right to my mom, my dad was no longer here. She did not disappoint in her wisdom, advice, (or I suspect) her behind-the-scenes support. I can relate to having had a traumatic experience that eventually resulted in me having a determination and a strength that I never had before, but that did not come until I was 40. I no longer had parents, and though that made it much harder for me, it also required me to stand on my own, as I may never have done otherwise. Now, as I approach 65, I feel formidable, though I am aware of the possibility of diminishing physical and mental capacities in coming years. I have the attitude of "Just try me", when it comes to trespassing on me or on anyone I truly care about. What pisses me off about the Bruce Waddell stuff is that he basically pled out to "playing doctor" with his sister's children, ( wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-ca-offenders/bruce-waddell/), while there were far more egregious sins on his account. I am still grappling with the enormity of trespassing against children before they have had the chance of achieving personhood. I think of Matthew 18:5-7 KJV And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea." I used to think of these "little ones", as anyone who was vulnerable, and lacked sophistication, for whatever reason. The people in the Alberta fiasco, for example. Willis Propp toured the Holy Land around this time period, and mentioned seeing millstones such as these, and I wondered if he ever really made the connection. But, I have since come to believe that there is a special place reserved in hell for ones who have truly offended the real "little ones". Not to mention the ones who have covered up for them. Here's looking at you (again) Dale Schultz. I think for me it was because I was so very angry, not just at the person but at myself for being so naive, so stupid to get myself into that situation where it could happen. I know that it should have been safe and likely would have been under most circumstances, but I was angry. I swore it would never happen again. I think you understand that because of what happened to you at 40. It takes away the fear and it makes us so much stronger. I am so angry at the overseers that allowed this to happen on their watch. They knew it was happening, they didn't report the abusers and they enabled them to have a whole new field of children to prey upon! I do not believe in hell so I want for there to be repercussions in this life for them. But I agree with you Sharon, if there is a hell, these men definitely should be sent there. You just don't get abuse children like they have and not have consequences. Unfortunately it's looking like exactly that is going to happen. About the only way these men are ever going to see a jail cell is if the survivors individually bring charges against them in a personal lawsuit. There is no institution (which is just such a farce) so sue, to hold liable. I don't see personal charges happening for the most part. I do know that there are some going on right now, but it's an uphill battle to find a lawyer to take them on. They are hard ones to win and no lawyer likes to lose.
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Post by Annan on Sept 30, 2023 6:28:19 GMT -5
Wow. I wasn't sexually abused, but mentally and psychically abused. I have holes in my memory. Others tell me I functioned fine during those times. After I left my parent's home, I lived the abuse over and over in my mind. I lived in my head while other "persons" lived my life for me. It took a lot of strength to keep the others from making an appearance. They kept me sane as they were able to handle the memories of abuse while I was not. After awhile, I was able to shake off the other "persons" and come into my own. My dad dying last year enabled me to over come my severe psoriasis. I am truly alive and in control of my own life for the first time in my life. So you had what Sharon refers to as 'alters'? I am so glad that you have been able to bring them all together. Not an easy journey. Hugs Annan Thanks, Snow. Yes, I would call them 'alters'. They lived in my head while I struggled not to let others see them as at times they tried to take over. Luckily, I was always in control. I allowed them as they helped me deal with the emotional pain. It was hard leaving them behind and coming into my own, as I had not known who I was for a very very long time, if ever. It was like being an alien in an unfamiliar world. There is so much peace in my life now.
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Post by margaret on Oct 19, 2023 9:16:32 GMT -5
Attitudes like yours are a big part of the reason victims don't report child sexual abuse, which is a big part of the reason abuse continues. You should do a lot more research on child sexual abuse and the life-changing impact it has on victims. Seriously, you are clueless.
I suppose there could be some post-traumatic stress disorder that I don't understand.. I disagree that victims don't come forward because of me or that abuse continues because of me. But I reckon everyone is different and its possible that women and children have a bigger problem coping with abuse. Everyone experiences some sort of trauma in life and need to deal with it individually, but I can't grasp how it could still be an issue decades after the fact? I understand that its not something a person can forget, but it just seems a pity that they can't release painful memories and get on with a normal life. How does dwelling on something awful help resolve anything? I am fully cognizant that not everyone is like me and may need help dealing with a violent or sexually abusive past. I don't lack of compassion for anyone that's gone through hell, but why relive a horrible episode every day of your life?
it’s not a switch that can be turned off at will. For many, as long as their abuser is alive there’s no peace and no “getting over it”. It’s not something they choose, it’s their reality and something they cannot change. Actually, Dan, you do lack compassion. Compassion is what Jesus had when he would “enter into the feelings of our infirmities.” I cannot even imagine what this horrific abuse would have done to a young child but I sure do understand there are lasting debilitating effects.
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