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Post by menatwork on Aug 17, 2023 2:34:08 GMT -5
Rob Newman's (CA Overseer) recent email dated 15th August 2023 is interesting in relation to exclusivity. He writes: "Much of this letter is about unfortunate but very important issues (ie CSA/SA) - but it is important to keep things in perspective. God's way does and will continue, and we we take comfort and trust in the fact that He sees and know everything, and is keeping His trusting little ones" Likewise, Mike Hasset's (Alberta Overseer) recent (appalling) email of 9 August states: "We have just finished a most wonderful convention season. Our Lord has been so good to us. Perhaps some would have felt that there is a 'crisis' in the kingdom but that is not happening. This is God's kingdom and everything is very much under his control". It's very clear from those statements that senior workers absolutely believe that the workers/friends/meeting fellowship, is God's Way and God's Kingdom. If workers are consistent the world over about one thing - it is that they are are God's only true servants on earth and their fellowship/church is God's Way and God's Kingdom on earth That is my experience as well Ross. When I brought up this with a worker about 10 hrs ago he told me that if they weren’t the only true servants/preachers and this wasn’t the only right way then his life has been wasted. I felt immense sadness at that time as he did not want to discuss it further.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Aug 17, 2023 3:10:09 GMT -5
Rob Newman's (CA Overseer) recent email dated 15th August 2023 is interesting in relation to exclusivity. He writes: "Much of this letter is about unfortunate but very important issues (ie CSA/SA) - but it is important to keep things in perspective. God's way does and will continue, and we we take comfort and trust in the fact that He sees and know everything, and is keeping His trusting little ones" Likewise, Mike Hasset's (Alberta Overseer) recent (appalling) email of 9 August states: "We have just finished a most wonderful convention season. Our Lord has been so good to us. Perhaps some would have felt that there is a 'crisis' in the kingdom but that is not happening. This is God's kingdom and everything is very much under his control". It's very clear from those statements that senior workers absolutely believe that the workers/friends/meeting fellowship, is God's Way and God's Kingdom. If workers are consistent the world over about one thing - it is that they are are God's only true servants on earth and their fellowship/church is God's Way and God's Kingdom on earth That is my experience as well Ross. When I brought up this with a worker about 10 hrs ago he told me that if they weren’t the only true servants/preachers and this wasn’t the only right way then his life has been wasted. I felt immense sadness at that time as he did not want to discuss it further. Yes, I've had workers say that to me as well - very sad - as it's all about them. When workers and some friends focus on the sacrifice of the workers, I often say that I haven't met a person yet in full-time ministry who hasn't given up their profession to preach the gospel.
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2023 4:17:33 GMT -5
Rob Newman's (CA Overseer) recent email dated 15th August 2023 is interesting in relation to exclusivity. He writes: "Much of this letter is about unfortunate but very important issues (ie CSA/SA) - but it is important to keep things in perspective. God's way does and will continue, and we we take comfort and trust in the fact that He sees and know everything, and is keeping His trusting little ones" Likewise, Mike Hasset's (Alberta Overseer) recent (appalling) email of 9 August states: "We have just finished a most wonderful convention season. Our Lord has been so good to us. Perhaps some would have felt that there is a 'crisis' in the kingdom but that is not happening. This is God's kingdom and everything is very much under his control". It's very clear from those statements that senior workers absolutely believe that the workers/friends/meeting fellowship, is God's Way and God's Kingdom. If workers are consistent the world over about one thing - it is that they are are God's only true servants on earth and their fellowship/church is God's Way and God's Kingdom on earth That is my experience as well Ross. When I brought up this with a worker about 10 hrs ago he told me that if they weren’t the only true servants/preachers and this wasn’t the only right way then his life has been wasted. I felt immense sadness at that time as he did not want to discuss it further. Jesus is still the same And ever will remain Through time to come; Though born in low estate, Not ranked among the great, He is the only gate, God’s own sent One Workers should try preaching Jesus only, instead of their man made kingdom. Then their lives wouldn't be wasted. How can we encourage workers to do that, without pulling the rug out from under them?
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2023 13:33:12 GMT -5
Rob Newman's (CA Overseer) recent email dated 15th August 2023 is interesting in relation to exclusivity. He writes: "Much of this letter is about unfortunate but very important issues (ie CSA/SA) - but it is important to keep things in perspective. God's way does and will continue, and we we take comfort and trust in the fact that He sees and know everything, and is keeping His trusting little ones" Likewise, Mike Hasset's (Alberta Overseer) recent (appalling) email of 9 August states: "We have just finished a most wonderful convention season. Our Lord has been so good to us. Perhaps some would have felt that there is a 'crisis' in the kingdom but that is not happening. This is God's kingdom and everything is very much under his control". It's very clear from those statements that senior workers absolutely believe that the workers/friends/meeting fellowship, is God's Way and God's Kingdom. If workers are consistent the world over about one thing - it is that they are are God's only true servants on earth and their fellowship/church is God's Way and God's Kingdom on earth. That was the message at Glen Valley convention too. Stories about people losing their salvation because they left the 'Truth'. As long as people think that is true, CSA is going to continue because the friends and younger workers that might not condone it and want a change will be too scared to speak out for fear they are going to be excommunicated. Just recently heard of a young sister worker under Rob Newman being told there was no place for her in the ministry because she has been speaking out. That is going to silence a lot of workers and friends. Thankfully we are seeing a fair number that are being brave enough to risk it. We see conventions taken away in some cases where the owners wanted some kinds or precautions and the overseer in their area wouldn't agree to them.
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jwatt
Junior Member
Posts: 191
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Post by jwatt on Aug 17, 2023 13:50:58 GMT -5
Rob Newman's (CA Overseer) recent email dated 15th August 2023 is interesting in relation to exclusivity. He writes: "Much of this letter is about unfortunate but very important issues (ie CSA/SA) - but it is important to keep things in perspective. God's way does and will continue, and we we take comfort and trust in the fact that He sees and know everything, and is keeping His trusting little ones" Likewise, Mike Hasset's (Alberta Overseer) recent (appalling) email of 9 August states: "We have just finished a most wonderful convention season. Our Lord has been so good to us. Perhaps some would have felt that there is a 'crisis' in the kingdom but that is not happening. This is God's kingdom and everything is very much under his control". It's very clear from those statements that senior workers absolutely believe that the workers/friends/meeting fellowship, is God's Way and God's Kingdom. If workers are consistent the world over about one thing - it is that they are are God's only true servants on earth and their fellowship/church is God's Way and God's Kingdom on earth. That was the message at Glen Valley convention too. Stories about people losing their salvation because they left the 'Truth'. As long as people think that is true, CSA is going to continue because the friends and younger workers that might not condone it and want a change will be too scared to speak out for fear they are going to be excommunicated. Just recently heard of a young sister worker under Rob Newman being told there was no place for her in the ministry because she has been speaking out. That is going to silence a lot of workers and friends. Thankfully we are seeing a fair number that are being brave enough to risk it. We see conventions taken away in some cases where the owners wanted some kinds or precautions and the overseer in their area wouldn't agree to them. Sounds like a lot of the senior workers/overseers aren't willing to make any changes for the safety of their people. They instead are focusing on keeping the cult to continue. So maybe upto the friends to get together to put a stop to any meetings etc to continue if these perps and those covering this up attend. I'm so thankful I'm out and don't have the worry of any of my grandkids attending these unsafe places. Which is real sad when brought up to believe this was the safest place on earth. Well done to those brave enough to speak up and stand up!!
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Post by internationalstudies on Aug 17, 2023 14:10:36 GMT -5
Jesus is still the same And ever will remain Through time to come; Though born in low estate, Not ranked among the great, He is the only gate, God’s own sent One Workers should try preaching Jesus only, instead of their man made kingdom. Then their lives wouldn't be wasted. How can we encourage workers to do that, without pulling the rug out from under them? This goes well in the echo chamber you have here! Ross and his acolytes on this thread like it! (btw, nice to see Ross showing his original and true colours again in recent posts here! Doing a plug for his anglican evangelical salaried minister! ) It'd be interesting for you to share the post with the folk in the Sunday morning meeting in your home. 🤭 If you get a day of convention, then in your testimony there?😮 Or if you are really a man of your convictions when you 'have a coffee' with Alan or Wayne or the two sisters there! I'd like to be a 'fly on the wall'! Perhaps you'd not be so keen on the surprised looks on the faces of 'system minded sanctimonious friends' and a 'corrupt eldership'? (as you fondly refer to them as). You might not get the 'likes' you get in the echo chamber here? You are a brave man who is to be appreciated and admired for swimming against the torrent of all that is wrong in the church in NZ and needs a fixit man for!
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 17, 2023 14:30:18 GMT -5
Yes, I've had workers say that to me as well - very sad - as it's all about them. When workers and some friends focus on the sacrifice of the workers, I often say that I haven't met a person yet in full-time ministry who hasn't given up their profession to preach the gospel. Yes, MH is a sad, arrogant and incredibly pea-brained individual. In one of his letters he wrote asking god to have mercy on people who take delight in scandals in the truth. It doesn’t even occur to him that maybe those criticizing the truth (not taking delight in its scandals not that I would blame victims of CSA or adult on adult rape for feeling this way—why shouldn’t they?) don’t hold it in the same regard that he does. Speaking theoretically, why should a god have to have mercy on people who criticize something it likely wouldn’t endorse? It’s not like the critics are doing anything wrong. In repetition of what I’ve said before the smugness of those who view their system in an exclusive manner I find vomit-worthy.
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2023 14:48:54 GMT -5
Jesus is still the same And ever will remain Through time to come; Though born in low estate, Not ranked among the great, He is the only gate, God’s own sent One Workers should try preaching Jesus only, instead of their man made kingdom. Then their lives wouldn't be wasted. How can we encourage workers to do that, without pulling the rug out from under them? This goes well in the echo chamber you have here! Ross and his acolytes on this thread like it! (btw, nice to see Ross showing his original and true colours again in recent posts here! Doing a plug for his anglican evangelical salaried minister! ) It'd be interesting for you to share the post with the folk in the Sunday morning meeting in your home. 🤭 If you get a day of convention, then in your testimony there?😮 Or if you are really a man of your convictions when you 'have a coffee' with Alan or Wayne or the two sisters there! I'd like to be a 'fly on the wall'! Perhaps you'd not be so keen on the surprised looks on the faces of 'system minded sanctimonious friends' and a 'corrupt eldership'? (as you fondly refer to them as). You might not get the 'likes' you get in the echo chamber here? You are a brave man who is to be appreciated and admired for swimming against the torrent of all that is wrong in the church in NZ and needs a fixit man for! We should ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?" in the current mess? How would he fit into the religious politics that we hold so dear? Or would he be pushed aside, despised, rejected, defamed and ridiculed?
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Post by snow on Aug 17, 2023 17:02:05 GMT -5
Yes, I've had workers say that to me as well - very sad - as it's all about them. When workers and some friends focus on the sacrifice of the workers, I often say that I haven't met a person yet in full-time ministry who hasn't given up their profession to preach the gospel. Yes, MH is a sad, arrogant and incredibly pea-brained individual. In one of his letters he wrote asking god to have mercy on people who take delight in scandals in the truth. It doesn’t even occur to him that maybe those criticizing the truth (not taking delight in its scandals not that I would blame victims of CSA or adult on adult rape for feeling this way—why shouldn’t they?) don’t hold it in the same regard that he does. Speaking theoretically, why should a god have to have mercy on people who criticize something it likely wouldn’t endorse? It’s not like the critics are doing anything wrong. In repetition of what I’ve said before the smugness of those who view their system in an exclusive manner I find vomit-worthy. What makes me angry is that he speaks against the friends that are concerned about the safety of the children. He should be shouting it from the roof tops that CSA is wrong and all abusers should be turned over to the authorities. After all he's the one claiming he is chosen by God to lead the sheep. Kicking out those who are against CSA is beyond ironic.
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 17, 2023 17:13:21 GMT -5
Yes, MH is a sad, arrogant and incredibly pea-brained individual. In one of his letters he wrote asking god to have mercy on people who take delight in scandals in the truth. It doesn’t even occur to him that maybe those criticizing the truth (not taking delight in its scandals not that I would blame victims of CSA or adult on adult rape for feeling this way—why shouldn’t they?) don’t hold it in the same regard that he does. Speaking theoretically, why should a god have to have mercy on people who criticize something it likely wouldn’t endorse? It’s not like the critics are doing anything wrong. In repetition of what I’ve said before the smugness of those who view their system in an exclusive manner I find vomit-worthy. What makes me angry is that he speaks against the friends that are concerned about the safety of the children. He should be shouting it from the roof tops that CSA is wrong and all abusers should be turned over to the authorities. After all he's the one claiming he is chosen by God to lead the sheep. Kicking out those who are against CSA is beyond ironic. I agree entirely but sadly it seems his over self-assurance has led him to once again stick his head in the sand and pretend like nothing has even happened, like “the faithful” he so adores seem mostly to be doing. History that isn’t learned from gets repeated.
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Post by mountain on Aug 18, 2023 3:35:58 GMT -5
It is quite apparent to me that exclusivity is not the problem. It's stupidity that's the problem!
Properly exercised, exclusivity can be a very healthy thing. Isn't that what we're trying to do with perps?
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2023 12:33:28 GMT -5
It is quite apparent to me that exclusivity is not the problem. It's stupidity that's the problem! Properly exercised, exclusivity can be a very healthy thing. Isn't that what we're trying to do with perps? The workers preach that the friends salvation is dependent on being in the 'truth'. That kind of preaching is obviously very exclusive because that means a very small number of people are in the right way/path. Those who truly believe that to be true are never going to do anything that might jeopardize their salvation. And, the workers know that and are relying heavily on the friends believing that. The head workers have a lot of power. They can excommunicate people, spread rumors that will make some of the friends shun people until they leave etc. The preaching from the platform has a great deal of fear for their salvation in it. How much change actually happens will depend on how many people have totally bought into the relationship between professing and their eternal salvation. We are seeing more and more of those that are speaking out being given the cold shoulder, shunned or kicked out of the ministry. That is really going to impact the amount of change that can happen if a majority of the friends think their salvation is in danger if they speak out.
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Post by mountain on Aug 18, 2023 14:27:06 GMT -5
It is quite apparent to me that exclusivity is not the problem. It's stupidity that's the problem! Properly exercised, exclusivity can be a very healthy thing. Isn't that what we're trying to do with perps? The workers preach that the friends salvation is dependent on being in the 'truth'. That kind of preaching is obviously very exclusive because that means a very small number of people are in the right way/path. Those who truly believe that to be true are never going to do anything that might jeopardize their salvation. And, the workers know that and are relying heavily on the friends believing that. The head workers have a lot of power. They can excommunicate people, spread rumors that will make some of the friends shun people until they leave etc. The preaching from the platform has a great deal of fear for their salvation in it. How much change actually happens will depend on how many people have totally bought into the relationship between professing and their eternal salvation. We are seeing more and more of those that are speaking out being given the cold shoulder, shunned or kicked out of the ministry. That is really going to impact the amount of change that can happen if a majority of the friends think their salvation is in danger if they speak out. It is not their beliefs that are the problem but the way they are enforced that makes all the difference.
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2023 14:39:58 GMT -5
The workers preach that the friends salvation is dependent on being in the 'truth'. That kind of preaching is obviously very exclusive because that means a very small number of people are in the right way/path. Those who truly believe that to be true are never going to do anything that might jeopardize their salvation. And, the workers know that and are relying heavily on the friends believing that. The head workers have a lot of power. They can excommunicate people, spread rumors that will make some of the friends shun people until they leave etc. The preaching from the platform has a great deal of fear for their salvation in it. How much change actually happens will depend on how many people have totally bought into the relationship between professing and their eternal salvation. We are seeing more and more of those that are speaking out being given the cold shoulder, shunned or kicked out of the ministry. That is really going to impact the amount of change that can happen if a majority of the friends think their salvation is in danger if they speak out. It is not their beliefs that are the problem but the way they are enforced that makes all the difference. I don't understand how you can say it's not their beliefs that are the problem. If they didn't believe what the workers said about their salvation the workers would lose all their power to enforce. People would just ignore them or feel free to walk away and find a different church.
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Post by snow on Aug 18, 2023 14:42:20 GMT -5
I don't know if this website has been posted anywhere on here. I just saw it and thought I'd make sure it was posted here on TMB They are a group that made a website to give resources to the survivors and even a section for resources for the workers that want to help. voicesforthetruth.org/
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Post by mountain on Aug 18, 2023 16:14:49 GMT -5
It is not their beliefs that are the problem but the way they are enforced that makes all the difference. I don't understand how you can say it's not their beliefs that are the problem. If they didn't believe what the workers said about their salvation the workers would lose all their power to enforce. People would just ignore them or feel free to walk away and find a different church. I guess I was referring to their doctrine. Eg. There is a difference between saying 'we follow the example of Jesus sending out his disciples two and two,' and saying this is the only way and people must hear the gospel through us.'
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 18, 2023 20:40:29 GMT -5
I don't know if this website has been posted anywhere on here. I just saw it and thought I'd make sure it was posted here on TMB They are a group that made a website to give resources to the survivors and even a section for resources for the workers that want to help. voicesforthetruth.org/ Another example of a transparent group, supporting survivors and working together with the workers in a bipartisan way. "Action is what gives love meaning, and we are called to act with love and empathy to the most vulnerable among us, no matter how scary it might be to do so." - Selkie Hope, VFTT
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Post by openingact34 on Aug 18, 2023 22:34:45 GMT -5
This goes well in the echo chamber you have here! Ross and his acolytes on this thread like it! (btw, nice to see Ross showing his original and true colours again in recent posts here! Doing a plug for his anglican evangelical salaried minister! ) It'd be interesting for you to share the post with the folk in the Sunday morning meeting in your home. 🤭 If you get a day of convention, then in your testimony there?😮 Or if you are really a man of your convictions when you 'have a coffee' with Alan or Wayne or the two sisters there! I'd like to be a 'fly on the wall'! Perhaps you'd not be so keen on the surprised looks on the faces of 'system minded sanctimonious friends' and a 'corrupt eldership'? (as you fondly refer to them as). You might not get the 'likes' you get in the echo chamber here? You are a brave man who is to be appreciated and admired for swimming against the torrent of all that is wrong in the church in NZ and needs a fixit man for! We should ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?" in the current mess? How would he fit into the religious politics that we hold so dear? Or would he be pushed aside, despised, rejected, defamed and ridiculed? Why do we have to "ask ourselves"? The Friends and Workers claim that "Jesus is still speaking". What has Jesus been speaking to them about for the last hundred years? Is it protecting the vulnerable from abuse? Or how we dress and do our hair? I think the answer is obvious. The professing community needs to be honest about the messages and priorities that they have been receiving from God (i.e. focus on clothing, no makeup, hairstyles, threats of torture, etc) vs the messages and priorities that they have been receiving from secular society (stop abuse, financial transparency and accountability, etc).
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Post by Dan on Aug 19, 2023 2:25:03 GMT -5
It is quite apparent to me that exclusivity is not the problem. It's stupidity that's the problem! Properly exercised, exclusivity can be a very healthy thing. Isn't that what we're trying to do with perps? The workers preach that the friends salvation is dependent on being in the 'truth'. That kind of preaching is obviously very exclusive because that means a very small number of people are in the right way/path. Those who truly believe that to be true are never going to do anything that might jeopardize their salvation. And, the workers know that and are relying heavily on the friends believing that. The head workers have a lot of power. They can excommunicate people, spread rumors that will make some of the friends shun people until they leave etc. The preaching from the platform has a great deal of fear for their salvation in it. How much change actually happens will depend on how many people have totally bought into the relationship between professing and their eternal salvation. We are seeing more and more of those that are speaking out being given the cold shoulder, shunned or kicked out of the ministry. That is really going to impact the amount of change that can happen if a majority of the friends think their salvation is in danger if they speak out.
If someone is deceived enough to believe that where they attend church is the determining factor in gaining salvation, then they desperately need a lecture on just what (who) the Truth is.
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Post by giuseppe on Aug 19, 2023 3:07:29 GMT -5
The workers preach that the friends salvation is dependent on being in the 'truth'. That kind of preaching is obviously very exclusive because that means a very small number of people are in the right way/path. Those who truly believe that to be true are never going to do anything that might jeopardize their salvation. And, the workers know that and are relying heavily on the friends believing that. The head workers have a lot of power. They can excommunicate people, spread rumors that will make some of the friends shun people until they leave etc. The preaching from the platform has a great deal of fear for their salvation in it. How much change actually happens will depend on how many people have totally bought into the relationship between professing and their eternal salvation. We are seeing more and more of those that are speaking out being given the cold shoulder, shunned or kicked out of the ministry. That is really going to impact the amount of change that can happen if a majority of the friends think their salvation is in danger if they speak out.
If someone is deceived enough to believe that where they attend church is the determining factor in gaining salvation, then they desperately need a lecture on just what (who) the Truth is.
I feel a need to thank Ross for showing me the real truth of what is happening in the Way.
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2023 12:13:38 GMT -5
The workers preach that the friends salvation is dependent on being in the 'truth'. That kind of preaching is obviously very exclusive because that means a very small number of people are in the right way/path. Those who truly believe that to be true are never going to do anything that might jeopardize their salvation. And, the workers know that and are relying heavily on the friends believing that. The head workers have a lot of power. They can excommunicate people, spread rumors that will make some of the friends shun people until they leave etc. The preaching from the platform has a great deal of fear for their salvation in it. How much change actually happens will depend on how many people have totally bought into the relationship between professing and their eternal salvation. We are seeing more and more of those that are speaking out being given the cold shoulder, shunned or kicked out of the ministry. That is really going to impact the amount of change that can happen if a majority of the friends think their salvation is in danger if they speak out. If someone is deceived enough to believe that where they attend church is the determining factor in gaining salvation, then they desperately need a lecture on just what (who) the Truth is. Well if this mess doesn't move some people to question how a church can be the only one responsible for their salvation, I don't think anything will convince them. This isn't directed at those who don't believe in exclusivity and continue to stay knowing full well they can leave and be fine. There are a number of those people and they are staying because they enjoy the way they fellowship, but also to try to make some real changes from the inside. They are working for change. It's the people that are trying to sabotage the work of these friends and workers that the overseers are trying to silence that I'm talking about.
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Post by internationalstudies on Aug 19, 2023 14:14:54 GMT -5
"We should ask ourselves' is this what Jesus would do in the current mess": Post thousands of times in an echo chamber where liked minded posters like posts? Post such as: If that is how Jesus felt I'm sure he would not in post 17000+ posts in a 'safe' 'risk free' echo chamber TMB environment. (James Thurber's short story "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" comes to mind) 'How can we encourage' such to: To quote persona non grata above: "Action is what gives love meaning"
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Post by Dan on Aug 19, 2023 14:27:17 GMT -5
If someone is deceived enough to believe that where they attend church is the determining factor in gaining salvation, then they desperately need a lecture on just what (who) the Truth is. Well if this mess doesn't move some people to question how a church can be the only one responsible for their salvation, I don't think anything will convince them. This isn't directed at those who don't believe in exclusivity and continue to stay knowing full well they can leave and be fine. There are a number of those people and they are staying because they enjoy the way they fellowship, but also to try to make some real changes from the inside. They are working for change. It's the people that are trying to sabotage the work of these friends and workers that the overseers are trying to silence that I'm talking about.
I believe they (some Overseers) are resisting attacks from what they perceive as overzealous busybodies, ne'er-do-wells who's real agenda is to attack the Truth and intensify upheaval in the church. They hang on some verses such as; "If anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother" (2 Thessalonians 3: 14-15). "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)
Some friends see it differently; "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles (incest)—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you... I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral — not even to eat with such a person" (1 Corinthians 5 NKJV)
So we have an impasse, or biblical deadlock.. Overseers who want the truth to continue, and some friends like a few convention owners, who want to punish the entire church by forbidding them to meet. They need to compromise, expel the bad guys, but not allow those who would seek to destroy the whole church for the bad deeds of a few.
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Post by fixit on Aug 19, 2023 14:46:24 GMT -5
'How can we encourage' such to: To quote persona non grata above: "Action is what gives love meaning"
It's sad that you push back so hard against a suggestion that you preach Jesus only. Jesus is our only message; Jesus all our theme shall be; We will lift up Jesus ever; Jesus only will we see.
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Post by Dan on Aug 19, 2023 14:55:16 GMT -5
We should ask ourselves "what would Jesus do?" in the current mess? How would he fit into the religious politics that we hold so dear? Or would he be pushed aside, despised, rejected, defamed and ridiculed?
I think Jesus would be diplomatic and not strain at a gnat . Anyone preaching the gospel would likely get a ...Faced with a similar problem about others besides the disciples doing miracles in his name, John said, "Master, we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us. But Jesus said, Do not stop him: For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me. For whoever is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9:38-40).. No exclusivity & no religiosity, just an all-inclusive positive nonsecular response.
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Post by internationalstudies on Aug 19, 2023 14:55:46 GMT -5
It is sad you "push back so hard "about i)sharing in your Sunday morning meeting or ii) in a testimony with a convention audience or iii) with the two sisters in your field or Alan or Wayne 'over a coffee' your message: Walter Mitty? or ? 🤷♂️
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2023 15:02:34 GMT -5
Well if this mess doesn't move some people to question how a church can be the only one responsible for their salvation, I don't think anything will convince them. This isn't directed at those who don't believe in exclusivity and continue to stay knowing full well they can leave and be fine. There are a number of those people and they are staying because they enjoy the way they fellowship, but also to try to make some real changes from the inside. They are working for change. It's the people that are trying to sabotage the work of these friends and workers that the overseers are trying to silence that I'm talking about. I believe they (some Overseers) are resisting attacks from what they perceive as overzealous busybodies, ne'er-do-wells who's real agenda is to attack the Truth and intensify upheaval in the church. They hang on some verses such as; "If anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother" (2 Thessalonians 3: 14-15). "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17)
Some friends see it differently; "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles (incest)—that a man has his father’s wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you... I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral — not even to eat with such a person" (1 Corinthians 5 NKJV) So we have an impasse, or biblical deadlock.. Overseers who want the truth to continue, and some friends like a few convention owners, who want to punish the entire church by forbidding them to meet. They need to compromise, expel the bad guys, but not allow those who would seek to destroy the whole church for the bad deeds of a few. The Clever convention was cancelled because the overseers wanted to have people come that had allegations and the Townsends didn't want that. How do you compromise on that if you're the convention owner? They hold the liability card and to be asked by an overseer to allow abusers on their land is incredibly irresponsible. And, it passes the buck. You can be sure that if they cave and allow the convention with abusers allowed if something happens, the overseer isn't going to step forward and take responsibility by saying they asked them to allow abusers. Besides, that wouldn't help anyway, it's their land not the overseers. The number of people that want to destroy the church are definitely not in the majority. Do they want to make people take this seriously? Of course. That means actually getting the word to the friends that it's happening and that I suppose can be construed as 'causing trouble'. From what I've been reading the convention owners are not cancelling to 'punish the entire church'. They just want to be safe. I have read several of the letters by convention owners that have either cancelled it themselves or the workers cancelled it because the owners didn't want certain people with allegations on their property. That's not punishing the church. But overseers are probably trying to spin it that way.
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Post by fixit on Aug 19, 2023 15:11:03 GMT -5
It is sad you "push back so hard "about i)sharing in your Sunday morning meeting or ii) in a testimony with a convention audience or iii) with the two sisters in your field or Alan or Wayne 'over a coffee' your message: Walter Mitty? or ? 🤷♂️ Is preaching Jesus only, such a bad idea? Is not our calling to follow Jesus? A lot of people are hurting right now because their faith is fixed on a religious organisation rather than on Jesus.
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