janj
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Posts: 470
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Post by janj on Jul 1, 2023 19:23:58 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault.
So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts?
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Post by deepdeep on Jul 1, 2023 20:26:36 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault. So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts? If the person is an adult and they are unwilling to go to law enforcement.... And there is a disagreement on the facts, pretty much no good way to resolve it. Unfortunately, if broader society is any indication, this is going to be typical of the majority of these cases.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 21:45:21 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault. So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts? 1st mistake? Going to the workers/elders/friends first. They should first trot right down to the local LE and tell all. If the person assaulted is a minor then workers can go around the one not wanting to do anything and report regardless. If an Adult, not a lot they can do. So, Kind of my old stance on he/she said might apply here. If an adult that doesn't want to report to LE, then the workers can at least get them to go get professional help which might actually encourage them to report later on. When that happens they can then act swiftly. They should at no time try to investigate or resolve anything between either persons really without LE involved. Their hands would be tied somewhat, if no one will report to LE on the adult cases. Good? Bad? Don't know. I'm not a legal expert, but I would suggest if you have questions to start doing searching online about all the rules covering these issues. I think its findlaw.com where I got a bit.
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Post by Dan on Jul 1, 2023 22:23:42 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault. So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts?
If a victim is unwilling to report it to the authorities/police, and assuming no evidence or witnesses exist, then I doubt any action would be taken against the accused. People just aren't condemned under circumstances like that.
Any person who's sexually assaulted ought to bypass everyone in the church and report it directly to the police. Anything that crosses the boundary of church affairs and becomes a crime, should be adjudicated by unbiased professionals who know what they're doing, not an untrained colleague who's over-riding interest is the clean-cut reputation of the church.
If someone in my church stole my car, I'd call the cops, not the Pastor who has no legal authority to do anything about it. If someone outside of the Truth sexually assaulted one of the Friends, they'd call the police, but for some reason they're reluctant to do that when a fellow church member is the offender? Loyalty to your church should never take precedence over your own safety.
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janj
Senior Member
Posts: 470
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Post by janj on Jul 1, 2023 22:47:55 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault. So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts?
If a victim is unwilling to report it to the authorities/police, and assuming no evidence or witnesses exist, then I doubt any action would be taken against the accused. People just aren't condemned under circumstances like that.
Any person who's sexually assaulted ought to bypass everyone in the church and report it directly to the police. Anything that crosses the boundary of church affairs and becomes a crime, should be adjudicated by unbiased professionals who know what they're doing, not an untrained colleague who's over-riding interest is the clean-cut reputation of the church.
If someone in my church stole my car, I'd call the cops, not the Pastor who has no legal authority to do anything about it. If someone outside of the Truth sexually assaulted one of the Friends, they'd call the police, but for some reason they're reluctant to do that when a fellow church member is the offender? Loyalty to your church should never take precedence over your own safety.
Yes Dan, I totally agree but non reporting is not confined just to this church, it's a wide-spread problem with sexual abuse. It is just too traumatic for the abused person to make a report. There have apparently been 400 cases in this church situation where people have said they have been abused. I wonder how many of those will actually make it to the criminal investigation stage? My guess is not very many, and so many abusers will be left in circulation. It's such a hard one.
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Post by Dan on Jul 2, 2023 0:07:01 GMT -5
If a victim is unwilling to report it to the authorities/police, and assuming no evidence or witnesses exist, then I doubt any action would be taken against the accused. People just aren't condemned under circumstances like that.
Any person who's sexually assaulted ought to bypass everyone in the church and report it directly to the police. Anything that crosses the boundary of church affairs and becomes a crime, should be adjudicated by unbiased professionals who know what they're doing, not an untrained colleague who's over-riding interest is the clean-cut reputation of the church.
If someone in my church stole my car, I'd call the cops, not the Pastor who has no legal authority to do anything about it. If someone outside of the Truth sexually assaulted one of the Friends, they'd call the police, but for some reason they're reluctant to do that when a fellow church member is the offender? Loyalty to your church should never take precedence over your own safety.
Yes Dan, I totally agree but non reporting is not confined just to this church, it's a wide-spread problem with sexual abuse. It is just too traumatic for the abused person to make a report. There have apparently been 400 cases in this church situation where people have said they have been abused. I wonder how many of those will actually make it to the criminal investigation stage? My guess is not very many, and so many abusers will be left in circulation. It's such a hard one.
I reckon so.. I must admit that I don't understand why a person wouldn't want to report it, I certainly wouldn't hesitate. Some may be afraid of being lambasted or don't think they can prove it, so why bother reporting it? But I'd want it on the record anyway.
Because of the delays, I doubt few will be prosecuted because vital evidence was not gathered at the time of the offense, and the burden of proof falls on the state.
Some of the limited responses we're hearing from Workers is no doubt under the direction of legal advise, specifics aren't mentioned in the interest of self-preservation. I'll be glad when this whole mess is over.
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 1:37:14 GMT -5
Yes Dan, I totally agree but non reporting is not confined just to this church, it's a wide-spread problem with sexual abuse. It is just too traumatic for the abused person to make a report. There have apparently been 400 cases in this church situation where people have said they have been abused. I wonder how many of those will actually make it to the criminal investigation stage? My guess is not very many, and so many abusers will be left in circulation. It's such a hard one. I reckon so.. I must admit that I don't understand why a person wouldn't want to report it, I certainly wouldn't hesitate. Some may be afraid of being lambasted or don't think they can prove it, so why bother reporting it? But I'd want it on the record anyway.
Because of the delays, I doubt few will be prosecuted because vital evidence was not gathered at the time of the offense, and the burden of proof falls on the state.
Some of the limited responses we're hearing from Workers is no doubt under the direction of legal advise, specifics aren't mentioned in the interest of self-preservation. I'll be glad when this whole mess is over.
It will make a big difference when the church turns from discouraging victims to report and actually encourages victims to report. When victims can see that those who report are respected and cared for, more victims will come forward.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 1:57:55 GMT -5
I reckon so.. I must admit that I don't understand why a person wouldn't want to report it, I certainly wouldn't hesitate. Some may be afraid of being lambasted or don't think they can prove it, so why bother reporting it? But I'd want it on the record anyway.
Because of the delays, I doubt few will be prosecuted because vital evidence was not gathered at the time of the offense, and the burden of proof falls on the state.
Some of the limited responses we're hearing from Workers is no doubt under the direction of legal advise, specifics aren't mentioned in the interest of self-preservation. I'll be glad when this whole mess is over.
It will make a big difference when the church turns from discouraging victims to report and actually encourages victims to report. When victims can see that those who report are respected and cared for, more victims will come forward. The first report should go to LE anyone else would come after that. So, there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting, it would be a courtesy in at least most US States to notify leadership. If I were a victim I'd bring witnesses when telling anyone that's an Overseer, Worker, Bishop/Elder or Deacon...
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 5:11:03 GMT -5
It will make a big difference when the church turns from discouraging victims to report and actually encourages victims to report. When victims can see that those who report are respected and cared for, more victims will come forward. The first report should go to LE anyone else would come after that. So, there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting, it would be a courtesy in at least most US States to notify leadership. If I were a victim I'd bring witnesses when telling anyone that's an Overseer, Worker, Bishop/Elder or Deacon... It's not that easy Wally. It takes a lot of courage for a CSA victim to come forward. Also, you wrote that "there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting". There is still a lot of push-back against victims in much of North America.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 6:57:55 GMT -5
The first report should go to LE anyone else would come after that. So, there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting, it would be a courtesy in at least most US States to notify leadership. If I were a victim I'd bring witnesses when telling anyone that's an Overseer, Worker, Bishop/Elder or Deacon... It's not that easy Wally. It takes a lot of courage for a CSA victim to come forward. Also, you wrote that "there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting". There is still a lot of push-back against victims in much of North America. You didn't get what I said, clearly. Mr. Contrarian...
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Post by verna on Jul 2, 2023 10:47:29 GMT -5
If a victim is unwilling to report it to the authorities/police, and assuming no evidence or witnesses exist, then I doubt any action would be taken against the accused. People just aren't condemned under circumstances like that.
Any person who's sexually assaulted ought to bypass everyone in the church and report it directly to the police. Anything that crosses the boundary of church affairs and becomes a crime, should be adjudicated by unbiased professionals who know what they're doing, not an untrained colleague who's over-riding interest is the clean-cut reputation of the church.
If someone in my church stole my car, I'd call the cops, not the Pastor who has no legal authority to do anything about it. If someone outside of the Truth sexually assaulted one of the Friends, they'd call the police, but for some reason they're reluctant to do that when a fellow church member is the offender? Loyalty to your church should never take precedence over your own safety.
Yes Dan, I totally agree but non reporting is not confined just to this church, it's a wide-spread problem with sexual abuse. It is just too traumatic for the abused person to make a report. There have apparently been 400 cases in this church situation where people have said they have been abused. I wonder how many of those will actually make it to the criminal investigation stage? My guess is not very many, and so many abusers will be left in circulation. It's such a hard one. The clarification has often been made but I will make it again. Over 400 PERPETRATORS have been reported. WAY MORE reports of abuse (victims/survivors).
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 13:19:08 GMT -5
It will make a big difference when the church turns from discouraging victims to report and actually encourages victims to report. When victims can see that those who report are respected and cared for, more victims will come forward. The first report should go to LE anyone else would come after that. So, there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting, it would be a courtesy in at least most US States to notify leadership. If I were a victim I'd bring witnesses when telling anyone that's an Overseer, Worker, Bishop/Elder or Deacon... If you were a victim, you would have a better understanding of why it takes so much courage to report to anyone - even people closest to the victim.
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 13:21:13 GMT -5
You didn't get what I said, clearly. Mr. Contrarian... The usefulness of forums is that the views of contrarians are presented. Get used to it.
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 2, 2023 14:21:24 GMT -5
You didn't get what I said, clearly. Mr. Contrarian... The usefulness of forums is that the views of contrarians are presented. Get used to it. Mr superior fixit. I notice you haven't got used to it yet yourself! If my posts are contrary to your 'party line', then you resort to your scurrilous personal slurs, 'righteously' misusing and misquoting scripture etc etc. 🤔
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 14:52:34 GMT -5
You didn't get what I said, clearly. Mr. Contrarian... The usefulness of forums is that the views of contrarians are presented. Get used to it. You haven't hypocrite...
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 14:53:20 GMT -5
The usefulness of forums is that the views of contrarians are presented. Get used to it. Mr superior fixit. I notice you haven't got used to it yet yourself! If my posts are contrary to your 'party line', then you resort to your scurrilous personal slurs, 'righteously' misusing and misquoting scripture etc etc. 🤔 If calling out bullies is considered scurrilous personal slurs then I am guilty as charged.
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 14:55:52 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault. So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts? @wally and internationalstudies....I'm looking forward to your views (contrarian or otherwise) regarding the OP.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 14:56:31 GMT -5
The first report should go to LE anyone else would come after that. So, there is no reason to fear The Truth and their reactions or actions or ideas on reporting, it would be a courtesy in at least most US States to notify leadership. If I were a victim I'd bring witnesses when telling anyone that's an Overseer, Worker, Bishop/Elder or Deacon... If you were a victim, you would have a better understanding of why it takes so much courage to report to anyone - even people closest to the victim. Still don't get it yet I see...not surprised... By the time I was 11/12 I reported the violence in our home to several people related and not. Then I didn't understand the police would have been the better idea even though in our town of 200 nothing would have been done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 14:58:05 GMT -5
This is a post to ask peoples views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault. So possible situation: A person goes to the elder of their meeting or the workers and reports that a particular person has committed a sexual crime against them. The workers & elder as advised, tell her to go to the police (correct procedure), but she doesn't want to as she cant face doing this(understandable & very common). Where to from here? The person is removed from fellowship pending an investigation ?If so,investigation by who (the police are not involved)? The friends and workers are not trained to investigate. If nothing is proven against that person and there are no other know allegations should that person be allowed to remain in fellowship (terrible for the victim & possibly reoffend)? If they are kept from fellowship but are in fact innocent, what a terrible life sentence for the alleged offender. Remember that it is vital to believe the victim but in doing so do we always disbelieve the accused? It is easy to say 'get rid of them' but it is not always just so straight forward. Peoples thoughts? @wally and internationalstudies ....I'm looking forward to your views (contrarian or otherwise) regarding the OP. Must be blind too, already did...scientist...
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Post by Dan on Jul 2, 2023 15:36:26 GMT -5
You didn't get what I said, clearly. Mr. Contrarian... The usefulness of forums is that the views of contrarians are presented. Get used to it.
I think Nathan would disagree .. Your right though, contrarian views are presented, but at the risk of being bombarded with vicious retorts or even getting yourself banned. A hollow Venus seems trivial & harmless in comparison to the horror show coming down now. Any Overseer who moved sexual abusers around to hide offenders would likely be welcomed to post here, but Nathan who would not likely have ever permitted such a thing is not allowed to speak. I think our moral compasses are a bit off-kilter?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 15:49:50 GMT -5
The usefulness of forums is that the views of contrarians are presented. Get used to it.
I think Nathan would disagree .. Your right though, contrarian views are presented, but at the risk of being bombarded with vicious retorts or even getting yourself banned. A hollow Venus seems trivial & harmless in comparison to the horror show coming down now. Any Overseer who moved sexual abusers around to hide offenders would likely be welcomed to post here, but Nathan who would not likely have ever permitted such a thing is not allowed to speak. I think our moral compasses are a bit off-kilter?
Wait for it...
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 16:35:11 GMT -5
I think Nathan would disagree .. Your right though, contrarian views are presented, but at the risk of being bombarded with vicious retorts or even getting yourself banned. A hollow Venus seems trivial & harmless in comparison to the horror show coming down now. Any Overseer who moved sexual abusers around to hide offenders would likely be welcomed to post here, but Nathan who would not likely have ever permitted such a thing is not allowed to speak. I think our moral compasses are a bit off-kilter?
Wait for it... Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with admin so don't know why Nathan was removed. My opinion: Nathan would have been better accepted if he didn't spam the board with such a vast volume of posts that are irrelevant to the 2x2 church. People who enjoy science fiction are better to go to science fiction forums.
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janj
Senior Member
Posts: 470
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Post by janj on Jul 2, 2023 18:02:05 GMT -5
Yes Dan, I totally agree but non reporting is not confined just to this church, it's a wide-spread problem with sexual abuse. It is just too traumatic for the abused person to make a report. There have apparently been 400 cases in this church situation where people have said they have been abused. I wonder how many of those will actually make it to the criminal investigation stage? My guess is not very many, and so many abusers will be left in circulation. It's such a hard one. The clarification has often been made but I will make it again. Over 400 PERPETRATORS have been reported. WAY MORE reports of abuse (victims/survivors). OK take it a wee bit further. For various reasons, statistics tell us that very few of those reported will get convicted. A quick search showed me that out of 310 cases of sexual assaults reported to the police un the US, 28 result in conviction. Taking out some that may be innocent, have left the church or have died, that leaves an awful lot of offenders still in circulation. How is that handled?
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 19:36:11 GMT -5
The clarification has often been made but I will make it again. Over 400 PERPETRATORS have been reported. WAY MORE reports of abuse (victims/survivors). OK take it a wee bit further. For various reasons, statistics tell us that very few of those reported will get convicted. A quick search showed me that out of 310 cases of sexual assaults reported to the police un the US, 28 result in conviction. Taking out some that may be innocent, have left the church or have died, that leaves an awful lot of offenders still in circulation. How is that handled? No solution is easy. What would you suggest?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2023 20:06:39 GMT -5
Wait for it... Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with admin so don't know why Nathan was removed. My opinion: Nathan would have been better accepted if he didn't spam the board with such a vast volume of posts that are irrelevant to the 2x2 church. People who enjoy science fiction are better to go to science fiction forums. Uh huh... There are several boards here with numerous topics you should be use to that by now. He was told to keep it only off the main board for the truth, nowhere else. He did that except during times when everyone else would poke the bear. You have only yourselves to blame. This ain't rocket science...
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 22:00:38 GMT -5
Can we now get back to the topic of the thread?
i.e. views on the practical application of ridding the fellowship of sexual immorality and in particular, sexual assault.
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janj
Senior Member
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Post by janj on Jul 2, 2023 22:20:21 GMT -5
OK take it a wee bit further. For various reasons, statistics tell us that very few of those reported will get convicted. A quick search showed me that out of 310 cases of sexual assaults reported to the police un the US, 28 result in conviction. Taking out some that may be innocent, have left the church or have died, that leaves an awful lot of offenders still in circulation. How is that handled? No solution is easy. What would you suggest? I honestly don't know. I just know it's easy to say 'they must rid the fellowship of abusers' but sadly that is not so easy.
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Post by fixit on Jul 3, 2023 1:01:35 GMT -5
No solution is easy. What would you suggest? I honestly don't know. I just know it's easy to say 'they must rid the fellowship of abusers' but sadly that is not so easy. It seems to be the case in any organisation that perpetrators have a lot of support.
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