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Post by Umfolozi on Jul 1, 2023 12:02:26 GMT -5
You will be suprised what defines a "Christian" cult.According to the description on this website the fellowship of workers and friends is a cult.
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Post by Umfolozi on Jul 1, 2023 12:03:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 13:21:32 GMT -5
There is more to it than that...
Curlytroll or someone here has said several times that it just depends on the size of the group? The bigger groups love to say the smaller ones are cults. Quite similar to what ex's say about the Truth's attitude with its exclusivity against others.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 1, 2023 15:30:57 GMT -5
I don't believe it is, but there are some friends and workers who have cult-like tendencies.
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Post by fixit on Jul 1, 2023 22:49:52 GMT -5
I don't believe it is, but there are some friends and workers who have cult-like tendencies. People like Gotquestions have a religious agenda and label a group as a cult if they don't agree with the doctrine. It's far better to get the definition of the word cult from secular sources. Many of the friends are happy with their Sunday AM meeting and are not affected by the following marks of a cult, while others in the fellowship are deeply affected.
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Post by believingjesus on Jul 2, 2023 19:24:57 GMT -5
I don't believe it is, but there are some friends and workers who have cult-like tendencies. People like Gotquestions have a religious agenda and label a group as a cult if they don't agree with the doctrine. It's far better to get the definition of the word cult from secular sources. Many of the friends are happy with their Sunday AM meeting and are not affected by the following marks of a cult, while others in the fellowship are deeply affected. Wow, using that list the truthee way checks all the boxes!
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2023 20:36:16 GMT -5
People like Gotquestions have a religious agenda and label a group as a cult if they don't agree with the doctrine. It's far better to get the definition of the word cult from secular sources. Many of the friends are happy with their Sunday AM meeting and are not affected by the following marks of a cult, while others in the fellowship are deeply affected. Wow, using that list the truthee way checks all the boxes! It does for some people.
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Post by Dan on Jul 2, 2023 23:13:03 GMT -5
With all that's been happening, I can see how people would label it a cult.. To a degree, the control factor weighs in. Women are told how to dress and every aspect of their physical appearance is dictated, from jewelry, hair, make-up, etc. Everyone is told what's permissible, from what they can have in their homes, what entertainment is allowed (next to none), what sports or activities are allowed (next to none), curricular choices, etc. All this amounts to control, and when you isolate people from normal behavior and require them to sacrificially alter their life, it goes beyond faith and straight to a type of submission that has no real biblical support. (my opinion)
Its no wonder that women submit to sexual advances and parents side with the authority they've surrendered to, even when the welfare of their own children are at stake. I kind of understand the separating yourself from worldly pleasures aspect (drinking, partying, etc), but they've almost gone into hiding, and total separation makes it easier to divide and control any group.
Unfortunately, when no ambiguity is permitted, the innocent are vulnerable to predators, they are susceptible because an abuser can count on their silence. A free thinker can't be groomed to accept a violent or friendly assault, but you can depend on silence when you've conquered a persons liberty (the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or religious/political views).
All that said, I wouldn't call it an out-right cult even though it possesses some cult-like features. There's no Jim Jones or David Koresh type of person in charge. Without a single dictator, it can change and the control factor can be decimated over night. People are free to come and go as they please, but the overbearing restrictions lead to domineering control.
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Post by getreal on Jul 3, 2023 0:30:43 GMT -5
With all that's been happening, I can see how people would label it a cult.. To a degree, the control factor weighs in. Women are told how to dress and every aspect of their physical appearance is dictated, from jewelry, hair, make-up, etc. Everyone is told what's permissible, from what they can have in their homes, what entertainment is allowed (next to none), what sports or activities are allowed (next to none), curricular choices, etc. All this amounts to control, and when you isolate people from normal behavior and require them to sacrificially alter their life, it goes beyond faith and straight to a type of submission that has no real biblical support. (my opinion)
Its no wonder that women submit to sexual advances and parents side with the authority they've surrendered to, even when the welfare of their own children are at stake. I kind of understand the separating yourself from worldly pleasures aspect (drinking, partying, etc), but they've almost gone into hiding, and total separation makes it easier to divide and control any group.
Unfortunately, when no ambiguity is permitted, the innocent are vulnerable to predators, they are susceptible because an abuser can count on their silence. A free thinker can't be groomed to accept a violent or friendly assault, but you can depend on silence when you've conquered a persons liberty (the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or religious/political views).
All that said, I wouldn't call it an out-right cult even though it possesses some cult-like features. There's no Jim Jones or David Koresh type of person in charge. Without a single dictator, it can change and the control factor can be decimated over night. People are free to come and go as they please, but the overbearing restrictions lead to domineering control.
A single leader isn’t a necessary characteristic and if they do exist they can be alive or dead so Irvine fits the bill. It can be an authoritarian leadership, plural. And as far as tippy top dogs there are very few really. If you read about the characteristics of cults from reputable people in that field of study this group ticks many boxes. It isn’t necessary that all boxes are ticked to qualify.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 2:32:22 GMT -5
With all that's been happening, I can see how people would label it a cult.. To a degree, the control factor weighs in. Women are told how to dress and every aspect of their physical appearance is dictated, from jewelry, hair, make-up, etc. Everyone is told what's permissible, from what they can have in their homes, what entertainment is allowed (next to none), what sports or activities are allowed (next to none), curricular choices, etc. All this amounts to control, and when you isolate people from normal behavior and require them to sacrificially alter their life, it goes beyond faith and straight to a type of submission that has no real biblical support. (my opinion)
Its no wonder that women submit to sexual advances and parents side with the authority they've surrendered to, even when the welfare of their own children are at stake. I kind of understand the separating yourself from worldly pleasures aspect (drinking, partying, etc), but they've almost gone into hiding, and total separation makes it easier to divide and control any group.
Unfortunately, when no ambiguity is permitted, the innocent are vulnerable to predators, they are susceptible because an abuser can count on their silence. A free thinker can't be groomed to accept a violent or friendly assault, but you can depend on silence when you've conquered a persons liberty (the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or religious/political views).
All that said, I wouldn't call it an out-right cult even though it possesses some cult-like features. There's no Jim Jones or David Koresh type of person in charge. Without a single dictator, it can change and the control factor can be decimated over night. People are free to come and go as they please, but the overbearing restrictions lead to domineering control.
A single leader isn’t a necessary characteristic and if they do exist they can be alive or dead so Irvine fits the bill. It can be an authoritarian leadership, plural. And as far as tippy top dogs there are very few really. If you read about the characteristics of cults from reputable people in that field of study this group ticks many boxes. It isn’t necessary that all boxes are ticked to qualify. From my short 44 years of experience in the group, it was almost zero that knew of Irvine. Can't very well follow a leader and hold them up if you've never heard of them... It generally starts with one person and an idea, not 100% but exceptions are not the rule...
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Post by fixit on Jul 3, 2023 3:10:57 GMT -5
A single leader isn’t a necessary characteristic and if they do exist they can be alive or dead so Irvine fits the bill. It can be an authoritarian leadership, plural. And as far as tippy top dogs there are very few really. If you read about the characteristics of cults from reputable people in that field of study this group ticks many boxes. It isn’t necessary that all boxes are ticked to qualify. It's not Irvine that's the problem, it's leaders like Dale Shultz who would make the fellowship a cult: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.php
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Post by jonathan on Jul 3, 2023 3:37:43 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off.
Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps.
God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship!
For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God.
All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ.
Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed.
The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality.
My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way.
In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God.
Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system.
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Post by fixit on Jul 3, 2023 4:52:03 GMT -5
People want to be led by man, to be told what to do, and there will always be narcissists show up to lead them.
Workers and friends need to be talking about God's leading as opposed to man's leading.
Workers should stop preaching themselves and their kingdom, and preach the kingdom of God within each yielded individual.
We need servant leadership, like Jesus taught...
Matthew 20:24 When the ten heard it, they were angry with the two brothers.
25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them.
26 It will not be so among you, but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slave
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 3, 2023 6:04:35 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off. Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps. God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship! For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God. All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ. Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed. The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality. My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way. In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God. Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system. You state your experience as a worker. i)Can you give specifics/ details of the clear evidence are you seeing and experiencing of some aspects of a cult in the ministry and church that you are part of? ii)You mention "system-thinking" and "system behavior" Details? Examples? Do you in your public ministry speak and warn about the cult aspects and "system-thinking" and "system behavior" you see? Do you speak and express your concerns to your fellow workers? Or is it limited to your loose non specific statements of 'some aspects of a cult,' "system-thinking" and "system behavior" TMB posts?
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Post by intelchips on Jul 3, 2023 6:45:18 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off. Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps. God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship! For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God. All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ. Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed. The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality. My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way. In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God. Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system. Is a cult always a bad thing? Consider how with recent new data the old idea of “the big bang” is ending and new ideas are being formed in its place. Can we call those continuing to adhere to a theory of “the big bang” a cult? It is a highly improbable idea that the god mentioned in the Old Testament is anything other than the invention of man trying to describe his origin, therefore it is a myth. And anyone holding a belief in this idea is a member of a cult. However, that is not to say there is no room for what we in our current state of development might see as a highly advanced entity we could call a god that helped influence the development of humankind. But maybe this too is a need for the god of the gaps. Consider that before man did 2 + 2 not equal 4? If you can say that it always equals four, then there is no need for a god that created everything, and the cult will lose traction. On the other hand, what do I know, I’m certainly no god!
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Post by Annan on Jul 3, 2023 7:26:47 GMT -5
If there are rules, it's a cult.
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Post by Dan on Jul 3, 2023 13:03:01 GMT -5
If there are rules, it's a cult.
No rules equates to anarchy... And that's no utopia! Rules establish standards, without rules you have no structure, and that leaves chaos, which eventually deteriorates into pure evil.
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Post by jonathan on Jul 3, 2023 13:22:28 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off. Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps. God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship! For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God. All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ. Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed. The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality. My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way. In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God. Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system. Is a cult always a bad thing? Consider how with recent new data the old idea of “the big bang” is ending and new ideas are being formed in its place. Can we call those continuing to adhere to a theory of “the big bang” a cult? It is a highly improbable idea that the god mentioned in the Old Testament is anything other than the invention of man trying to describe his origin, therefore it is a myth. And anyone holding a belief in this idea is a member of a cult. However, that is not to say there is no room for what we in our current state of development might see as a highly advanced entity we could call a god that helped influence the development of humankind. But maybe this too is a need for the god of the gaps. Consider that before man did 2 + 2 not equal 4? If you can say that it always equals four, then there is no need for a god that created everything, and the cult will lose traction. On the other hand, what do I know, I’m certainly no god! The way in which some have presented the theories of big bang and evolution, seemed more like it was religion than science. Science is based on fact that logically follows and builds. Those theories have huge gaps and one need a lot of faith to close those gaps! A huge mistake some make is to compare what the Bible says with science or even history. Although the Bible does contain references to aspects of both science and history, it is not a science journal and it is not a history archive. The real purpose of the Bible is in 2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". There is such a lot that we don't know and we might never know everything we would want to know! Such is the vastness and depth to it all. One thing we know for sure, it that everything is relevant as Einstein proved. Suppose each one of us have to experience that we are merely dust. Made of dust and destined to return to dust and yet we can so easily think so much of ourselves!
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Post by jonathan on Jul 3, 2023 13:30:14 GMT -5
If there are rules, it's a cult. We need rules and CSA awareness programs because we have a deluge of CSA/SA and bullying/emotional/narcissistic abuse. We need rules of what is appropriate and inappropriate, so that inappropriate behavior can be dealt with. If we don't, the tally of victims will get out of hand. It is rules and the law that makes us aware of what is wrong or sinful. Any parent trying to bring up children make use of rules. Any teacher trying to teach scholars make use of rules. Even science has rules and laws and no wonder there is tremendous and meticulous order and structure in everything scientific. There are cults without rules. Remember the 60's? Some even proclaimed the only rule there is is there are no rules!
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 3, 2023 14:08:13 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off. Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps. God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship! For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God. All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ. Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed. The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality. My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way. In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God. Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system. You state your experience as a worker. i)Can you give specifics/ details of the clear evidence are you seeing and experiencing of some aspects of a cult in the ministry and church that you are part of? ii)You mention "system-thinking" and "system behavior" Details? Examples? Do you in your public ministry speak and warn about the cult aspects and "system-thinking" and "system behavior" you see? Do you speak and express your concerns to your fellow workers? Or is it limited to your loose non specific statements of 'some aspects of a cult,' "system-thinking" and "system behavior" TMB posts? Jonathan you state your opinions and write about other workers and have questions here on TMB But then you ignore questions put to you. Why? You have answers to above questions asked of you.
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Post by fixit on Jul 3, 2023 14:09:17 GMT -5
Nathan McCarthy had a cute way of putting it...
It's not rules, but "guidelines for the undeveloped".
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Post by Grant on Jul 3, 2023 15:41:44 GMT -5
If there are rules, it's a cult. No rules equates to anarchy... And that's no utopia! Rules establish standards, without rules you have no structure, and that leaves chaos, which eventually deteriorates into pure evil.
Rules are made by man, for man. Some rules are for the good of society, others are about power and control by certain individuals. Would you say rules in China or North Korea are about standards or power? Some rules are for no ones benefit but the rule maker.
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Post by getreal on Jul 3, 2023 16:33:40 GMT -5
You can debate the rules or no rules, but you know, every religion, social group, society as a whole has rules. They are part of life whether you agree with them or not. Many are inescapable. The factor here related to a religion is if they are scriptural or of man and there is much disagreement here. But the point is, whether open debate and disagreement is possible without recrimination subtle or overt. And let’s be honest, that isn’t very possible in this group. The formality of the meetings is structured to avoid open and honest discussion. Social media is offering other avenues. I think the workers are losing control of the conversation. But disagreement has its repercussions and leaving has a high price of losing friends, respect, standing. Its easy to say well if you disagree just leave, but leaving can have. High price for many whether as workers or friends. All aspects of a cult. The price of disagreeing or leaving is high which is a way to control and manipulate is it not?
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Post by Dan on Jul 3, 2023 16:45:33 GMT -5
No rules equates to anarchy... And that's no utopia! Rules establish standards, without rules you have no structure, and that leaves chaos, which eventually deteriorates into pure evil.
Rules are made by man, for man. Some rules are for the good of society, others are about power and control by certain individuals. Would you say rules in China or North Korea are about standards or power? Some rules are for no ones benefit but the rule maker.
No, I meant to imply that a church can't throw out all the rules, like thou shall not murder and thou shalt not steal. But your right, one must distinguish between good & bad rules by determining the purpose of a rule and who it serves. Come to church sober, no smoking during mtg, no fondling children after mtg, are good rules. Cutting the antennas off of cars with radios in them, moving sex offenders out of an area, ignoring complaints & hushing victims, are bad rules.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 3, 2023 17:01:40 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off. Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps. God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship! For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God. All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ. Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed. The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality. My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way. In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God. Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system. You state your experience as a worker. i)Can you give specifics/ details of the clear evidence are you seeing and experiencing of some aspects of a cult in the ministry and church that you are part of? ii)You mention "system-thinking" and "system behavior" Details? Examples? Do you in your public ministry speak and warn about the cult aspects and "system-thinking" and "system behavior" you see? Do you speak and express your concerns to your fellow workers? Or is it limited to your loose non specific statements of 'some aspects of a cult,' "system-thinking" and "system behavior" TMB posts? If you, yourself, are indeed a worker, and have even a smidgeon of honesty, then I am sure that you are able to answer both points i) and ii) with numerous examples from your own experience. It is interesting to onlookers here that jonathan seems to bug you like nothing else on this forum or (even) within your ministry? Now and then, we (peripherally) wonder why?
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 3, 2023 17:11:23 GMT -5
You can debate the rules or no rules, but you know, every religion, social group, society as a whole has rules. They are part of life whether you agree with them or not. Many are inescapable. The factor here related to a religion is if they are scriptural or of man and there is much disagreement here. But the point is, whether open debate and disagreement is possible without recrimination subtle or overt. And let’s be honest, that isn’t very possible in this group. The formality of the meetings is structured to avoid open and honest discussion. Social media is offering other avenues. I think the workers are losing control of the conversation. But disagreement has its repercussions and leaving has a high price of losing friends, respect, standing. Its easy to say well if you disagree just leave, but leaving can have. High price for many whether as workers or friends. All aspects of a cult. The price of disagreeing or leaving is high which is a way to control and manipulate is it not? You make some really good points. I disagreed. I left. I knew "Those were the rules". I was okay with that. A few decades on, I am even more okay with that. In the end, it really can be that simple for an individual. Yes, there is a price to be paid. I am still paying it. But I am totally at peace with it. Even as individuals, we all have "rules". Do this, don't do that, and your life will be less complicated. We might label it as pattern recognition, but it is essentially still "rules".
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Post by internationalstudies on Jul 3, 2023 18:42:13 GMT -5
You state your experience as a worker. i)Can you give specifics/ details of the clear evidence are you seeing and experiencing of some aspects of a cult in the ministry and church that you are part of? ii)You mention "system-thinking" and "system behavior" Details? Examples? Do you in your public ministry speak and warn about the cult aspects and "system-thinking" and "system behavior" you see? Do you speak and express your concerns to your fellow workers? Or is it limited to your loose non specific statements of 'some aspects of a cult,' "system-thinking" and "system behavior" TMB posts? If you, yourself, are indeed a worker, and have even a smidgeon of honesty, then I am sure that you are able to answer both points i) and ii) with numerous examples from your own experience. It is interesting to onlookers here that jonathan seems to bug you like nothing else on this forum or (even) within your ministry? Now and then, we (peripherally) wonder why? Your honesty and logic is wanting me to answer questions about Jonathan's posts/statements rather than he have the integrity and decency to do it himself? You want the workers to be accountable, except for Jonathan?
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Post by fixit on Jul 3, 2023 18:45:34 GMT -5
Now we just need sex offenders and their enablers to understand that the rules have changed.
If you want to hang out in a sex cult, the 2x2 church is not the place for you.
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