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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 3, 2023 19:32:32 GMT -5
If you, yourself, are indeed a worker, and have even a smidgeon of honesty, then I am sure that you are able to answer both points i) and ii) with numerous examples from your own experience. It is interesting to onlookers here that jonathan seems to bug you like nothing else on this forum or (even) within your ministry? Now and then, we (peripherally) wonder why? Your honesty and logic is wanting me to answer questions about Jonathan's posts/statements rather than he have the integrity and decency to do it himself? You want the workers to be accountable, except for Jonathan? You know, there is something about you, that I kind of like. (That says way more about me than it does you, BTW.) I am a little rebel and iconoclast, from the word go. No apologies for that. It has served me well. You would not be posting on this forum, unless the same was true for you. I think you and jonathan have a great deal in common, though neither of you may see that at the moment. I don't know, but I think you are (probably) on the same side. I hope you can see that.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 3, 2023 19:37:51 GMT -5
Now we just need sex offenders and their enablers to understand that the rules have changed. If you want to hang out in a sex cult, the 2x2 church is not the place for you. OMG. Yes! It eviscerates me to think anything to the contrary, though the evidence might indicate otherwise.
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 3, 2023 19:49:18 GMT -5
Now we just need sex offenders and their enablers to understand that the rules have changed. If you want to hang out in a sex cult, the 2x2 church is not the place for you. It was a sex cult from the beginning And the truth is unchanging If you are not a predator, it's your responsibility to get the hell out of the sex cult
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 3, 2023 19:56:10 GMT -5
Now we just need sex offenders and their enablers to understand that the rules have changed. If you want to hang out in a sex cult, the 2x2 church is not the place for you. It was a sex cult from the beginning And the truth is unchanging If you are not a predator, it's your responsibility to get the hell out of the sex cult Comedians, in life, are really important. They push the boundaries, and say the (largely) unsayable. It keeps us grounded. And sane. To my mind, you serve much the same function on this message board. Thank you.
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Post by openingact34 on Jul 3, 2023 20:12:52 GMT -5
It was a sex cult from the beginning And the truth is unchanging If you are not a predator, it's your responsibility to get the hell out of the sex cult Comedians, in life, are really important. They push the boundaries, and say the (largely) unsayable. It keeps us grounded. And sane. To my mind, you serve much the same function on this message board. Thank you. And that was pure fact, not comedy
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Post by Umfolozi on Jul 3, 2023 20:17:49 GMT -5
It's not supposed to be a cult. Although there is clear evidence of some aspects of a cult, in my view and experience those are the branches not bearing fruit that will be cut off. Thete had always been remnant, however small En insignificant perhaps. God's truth will remain truth even if most despise it. Even most in the fellowship! For whatever reason undue recognition, fear, honour and glory have been bestowed on mere mortals instead of the Almighty God. All cults will also be destroyed and subdued like all other kingdoms at the coming of Christ. Only the true remnant shall rejoice in that day and not be ashamed. The calling to lay down my life for the gospel has come from God. Not from man, or a desire or feeling compelled to follow and please man or some central personality. My satisfaction is I doing God's Will as He reveals it to me; as I follow how His Spirit leads and guides me. This joy I have in my soul has nothing to do with people who act or think in a cult-like way. In fact, I often distance myself from "system-thinking" and "system behavior" which is what modern-day religion has become. A far cry from what God intended it to be. Someone has pointed out once that in an African language, not sure now which one, the word for religion is "God's service", as in service that belongs to God or is unto God. Part of the remedy for "cultism" is to re-focus again on God instead of man, on His righteousness and doctrine instead of a system. Yes! Well said!
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Post by Umfolozi on Jul 3, 2023 20:19:05 GMT -5
People want to be led by man, to be told what to do, and there will always be narcissists show up to lead them. Workers and friends need to be talking about God's leading as opposed to man's leading. Workers should stop preaching themselves and their kingdom, and preach the kingdom of God within each yielded individual. We need servant leadership, like Jesus taught... Matthew 20:24 When the ten heard it, they were angry with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. 26 It will not be so among you, but whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you must be your slaveYes!
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 3, 2023 20:59:24 GMT -5
Comedians, in life, are really important. They push the boundaries, and say the (largely) unsayable. It keeps us grounded. And sane. To my mind, you serve much the same function on this message board. Thank you. And that was pure fact, not comedy And in the age of the unspeakable/unsayable, are facts and comedy so distinct?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 1:53:42 GMT -5
As long as people look for someone else to underwrite their salvation, there will be cults.
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Post by Annan on Jul 4, 2023 8:22:40 GMT -5
As long as people look for someone else to underwrite their salvation, there will be cults. Thank you.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 13:46:54 GMT -5
Wow, using that list the truthee way checks all the boxes! It does for some people. Do you think it's the majority of the workers though?
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 13:50:37 GMT -5
With all that's been happening, I can see how people would label it a cult.. To a degree, the control factor weighs in. Women are told how to dress and every aspect of their physical appearance is dictated, from jewelry, hair, make-up, etc. Everyone is told what's permissible, from what they can have in their homes, what entertainment is allowed (next to none), what sports or activities are allowed (next to none), curricular choices, etc. All this amounts to control, and when you isolate people from normal behavior and require them to sacrificially alter their life, it goes beyond faith and straight to a type of submission that has no real biblical support. (my opinion)
Its no wonder that women submit to sexual advances and parents side with the authority they've surrendered to, even when the welfare of their own children are at stake. I kind of understand the separating yourself from worldly pleasures aspect (drinking, partying, etc), but they've almost gone into hiding, and total separation makes it easier to divide and control any group.
Unfortunately, when no ambiguity is permitted, the innocent are vulnerable to predators, they are susceptible because an abuser can count on their silence. A free thinker can't be groomed to accept a violent or friendly assault, but you can depend on silence when you've conquered a persons liberty (the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or religious/political views). All that said, I wouldn't call it an out-right cult even though it possesses some cult-like features. There's no Jim Jones or David Koresh type of person in charge. Without a single dictator, it can change and the control factor can be decimated over night. People are free to come and go as they please, but the overbearing restrictions lead to domineering control.
It's not true that there are no repercussions though, if you leave. Some are being excommunicated, advising that parents shun their children for accusing a worker of CSA etc. so that's a real big red flag in the cult list. Yes, you can leave, unlike Jones cult, but it's not without repercussions.
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Post by verna on Jul 5, 2023 14:02:21 GMT -5
With all that's been happening, I can see how people would label it a cult.. To a degree, the control factor weighs in. Women are told how to dress and every aspect of their physical appearance is dictated, from jewelry, hair, make-up, etc. Everyone is told what's permissible, from what they can have in their homes, what entertainment is allowed (next to none), what sports or activities are allowed (next to none), curricular choices, etc. All this amounts to control, and when you isolate people from normal behavior and require them to sacrificially alter their life, it goes beyond faith and straight to a type of submission that has no real biblical support. (my opinion)
Its no wonder that women submit to sexual advances and parents side with the authority they've surrendered to, even when the welfare of their own children are at stake. I kind of understand the separating yourself from worldly pleasures aspect (drinking, partying, etc), but they've almost gone into hiding, and total separation makes it easier to divide and control any group.
Unfortunately, when no ambiguity is permitted, the innocent are vulnerable to predators, they are susceptible because an abuser can count on their silence. A free thinker can't be groomed to accept a violent or friendly assault, but you can depend on silence when you've conquered a persons liberty (the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or religious/political views). All that said, I wouldn't call it an out-right cult even though it possesses some cult-like features. There's no Jim Jones or David Koresh type of person in charge. Without a single dictator, it can change and the control factor can be decimated over night. People are free to come and go as they please, but the overbearing restrictions lead to domineering control.
It's not true that there are no repercussions though, if you leave. Some are being excommunicated, advising that parents shun their children for accusing a worker of CSA etc. so that's a real big red flag in the cult list. Yes, you can leave, unlike Jones cult, but it's not without repercussions. Yes - feeling it still 40 years later. Never free.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 14:05:52 GMT -5
As long as people look for someone else to underwrite their salvation, there will be cults. Exactly. And it doesn't necessarily need to be their salvation. Cults are formed for many reasons. As an atheist I see all religious groups as a cult because they worship an entity that no one can prove even exists and they have decided they need to follow the rules of the various interpretations of their deity. Some of these interpretations are more harmful than others. At the moment the 2x2 group seems to meet the criteria of one of the more harmful ones. At one point a religious cult was based on how long they were a group. 100 years seemed to be the criteria. That has changed of course, but at one point the 100 years made the 2x2 and Mormons definitely a cult. Not necessarily bad, just too young to be considered a valid religion or denomination of a religion.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 14:08:07 GMT -5
It's not true that there are no repercussions though, if you leave. Some are being excommunicated, advising that parents shun their children for accusing a worker of CSA etc. so that's a real big red flag in the cult list. Yes, you can leave, unlike Jones cult, but it's not without repercussions. Yes - feeling it still 40 years later. Never free. I'm sorry Verna. I am so very lucky to have absolutely no living family members in the group anymore. It pretty much died with me. I was the only offspring that professed in my family. All the professing members were older and have since passed away. I don't have to worry about family that are still in. I do have concerns about the friends I have known for a long time, but there is no pressure from within from that.
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Post by Dan on Jul 5, 2023 14:34:14 GMT -5
With all that's been happening, I can see how people would label it a cult.. To a degree, the control factor weighs in. Women are told how to dress and every aspect of their physical appearance is dictated, from jewelry, hair, make-up, etc. Everyone is told what's permissible, from what they can have in their homes, what entertainment is allowed (next to none), what sports or activities are allowed (next to none), curricular choices, etc. All this amounts to control, and when you isolate people from normal behavior and require them to sacrificially alter their life, it goes beyond faith and straight to a type of submission that has no real biblical support. (my opinion)
Its no wonder that women submit to sexual advances and parents side with the authority they've surrendered to, even when the welfare of their own children are at stake. I kind of understand the separating yourself from worldly pleasures aspect (drinking, partying, etc), but they've almost gone into hiding, and total separation makes it easier to divide and control any group.
Unfortunately, when no ambiguity is permitted, the innocent are vulnerable to predators, they are susceptible because an abuser can count on their silence. A free thinker can't be groomed to accept a violent or friendly assault, but you can depend on silence when you've conquered a persons liberty (the state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or religious/political views). All that said, I wouldn't call it an out-right cult even though it possesses some cult-like features. There's no Jim Jones or David Koresh type of person in charge. Without a single dictator, it can change and the control factor can be decimated over night. People are free to come and go as they please, but the overbearing restrictions lead to domineering control.
It's not true that there are no repercussions though, if you leave. Some are being excommunicated, advising that parents shun their children for accusing a worker of CSA etc. so that's a real big red flag in the cult list. Yes, you can leave, unlike Jones cult, but it's not without repercussions.
Well, I probably should have said that there were no repercussions for me personally, but I voluntarily left.. I suppose that if your kicked-out for not complying with Workers demands, or excommunicated for not shunning your own children, then a person would likely harbor some ill-feelings, resentment, anger, or even guilt? I just continued on independently believing the bible and being a Christian, so no harm no foul.
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Post by getreal on Jul 5, 2023 15:57:52 GMT -5
It's not true that there are no repercussions though, if you leave. Some are being excommunicated, advising that parents shun their children for accusing a worker of CSA etc. so that's a real big red flag in the cult list. Yes, you can leave, unlike Jones cult, but it's not without repercussions.
Well, I probably should have said that there were no repercussions for me personally, but I voluntarily left.. I suppose that if your kicked-out for not complying with Workers demands, or excommunicated for not shunning your own children, then a person would likely harbor some ill-feelings, resentment, anger, or even guilt? I just continued on independently believing the bible and being a Christian, so no harm no foul.
Yes Dan I think you have a simplistic view of this from your own experience being quite unusual really. For most leaving is such an upheaval they may stay even if they don’t feel it anymore. Think of someone married into a large professing family out on a farm with kids. How do you leave? Your whole life is the family and professing. You don’t go to meetings but your kids and hubby do, special meetings, convention, workers visiting, family professing??? How would you continue in that family? How would you carve out a separate life? The truth is all consuming like most religions are not. Every facet of life. How you look, think, talk, recreate, what you read, believe, how you see every situation? You would have to leave. And so, thinking of it this way, how many stay because to leave would be leaving everyone really. And then what if you are gay? I knew a good number who when they left because they were gay really had to give up everyone and everything they had known. I saw many, many become pariah’s because of leaving. But the saddest thing to me is how many stay and can’t be who they are. And when you leave the work??? Whole other topic and it’s super sad and hard, particularly the older you are. How many are staying now because how would they start a new life. There are mountains of pain here I don’t think you get.
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 18:02:25 GMT -5
It's not true that there are no repercussions though, if you leave. Some are being excommunicated, advising that parents shun their children for accusing a worker of CSA etc. so that's a real big red flag in the cult list. Yes, you can leave, unlike Jones cult, but it's not without repercussions. Well, I probably should have said that there were no repercussions for me personally, but I voluntarily left.. I suppose that if your kicked-out for not complying with Workers demands, or excommunicated for not shunning your own children, then a person would likely harbor some ill-feelings, resentment, anger, or even guilt? I just continued on independently believing the bible and being a Christian, so no harm no foul.
You and I are some of the lucky ones. I had a real hard time when I quit professing at 12 because I was a minor and still had to live at home and attend all the meetings. But once I left home I still was accepted by my parents and the friends. I'm sure some of them wanted nothing to do with me but many of the friends of my parents still were very good to me. I still have a good relationship with the ones that are still here. But many have not had our experience and it makes me sad and also angry.
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Post by Umfolozi on Jul 9, 2023 13:42:50 GMT -5
You can debate the rules or no rules, but you know, every religion, social group, society as a whole has rules. They are part of life whether you agree with them or not. Many are inescapable. The factor here related to a religion is if they are scriptural or of man and there is much disagreement here. But the point is, whether open debate and disagreement is possible without recrimination subtle or overt. And let’s be honest, that isn’t very possible in this group. The formality of the meetings is structured to avoid open and honest discussion. Social media is offering other avenues. I think the workers are losing control of the conversation. But disagreement has its repercussions and leaving has a high price of losing friends, respect, standing. Its easy to say well if you disagree just leave, but leaving can have. High price for many whether as workers or friends. All aspects of a cult. The price of disagreeing or leaving is high which is a way to control and manipulate is it not? You make some really good points. I disagreed. I left. I knew "Those were the rules". I was okay with that. A few decades on, I am even more okay with that. In the end, it really can be that simple for an individual. Yes, there is a price to be paid. I am still paying it. But I am totally at peace with it. Even as individuals, we all have "rules". Do this, don't do that, and your life will be less complicated. We might label it as pattern recognition, but it is essentially still "rules". Agree Sharon, God gave us all, atheïst and Christian alike, a internal clock of what's right and what is wrong.
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