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Post by hydropillar on Jun 15, 2023 15:45:35 GMT -5
I have known jim since a child.... jim alwayys had the the christ like spirit i wish i had !! he was maybe my favorite worker... he may have fallen from the grace of god but i pray not!! let he who is without sin cast the first stone !!! Randy Hettich South dakota
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Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 16:23:44 GMT -5
Yup, remember him well. The bottom line is all workers are human and they are put into inhuman conditions. Again, I will point out the systemic conditions that lead to humans failing. Celibacy is really hard and workers aren’t prepared to handle it and are thrust into situations that make it even harder like living with happy couples and living with sister workers at preps. Then when they do struggle with celibacy or just being in the work, the consequences for leaving the work are so huge as in the shame, the loss of respect and standing, loss of friends, and starting over with nothing. Reclaiming a career when you are older. It should be ok to leave. Absolutely ok. And you should be supported and guided not shunned or suffer the loss of reputation. Because when the stakes are so high some people stay who shouldn’t and they end up surviving in maladaptive ways and even criminal ways. We see the fruit of this approach to the ministry and it needs to change, and the friends need to lose this false idea that workers are special and above them in some way and then becoming so devastated when they fail. They are set up in many ways for failure. They are just people doing a job.
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Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 17:01:37 GMT -5
And just to finish the thought, the friends need to take responsibility for some of this mess because they are the ones wanting a king like in the Old Testament. It is human to want someone to be on a pedestal for us, having all the answers, knowing more, someone we can lean on. Its a temptation to want and need this and to put workers on those pedestals, and then they fall. God said what human kings would do. Do the friends understand that their need for this human king figure is selfish. It will fail them and the people put on these pedestals are being asked the impossible. The workers have become like idols. It’s wrong and it doesn’t work.
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2023 17:55:58 GMT -5
And just to finish the thought, the friends need to take responsibility for some of this mess because they are the ones wanting a king like in the Old Testament. It is human to want someone to be on a pedestal for us, having all the answers, knowing more, someone we can lean on. Its a temptation to want and need this and to put workers on those pedestals, and then they fall. God said what human kings would do. Do the friends understand that their need for this human king figure is selfish. It will fail them and the people put on these pedestals are being asked the impossible. The workers have become like idols. It’s wrong and it doesn’t work. How to identify and salvage what does work?
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Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 18:04:11 GMT -5
I remember the joke oft repeated by workers at conv in the past…we weren’t hired so we can’t be fired. Cue chuckles. You ask a good question. The system has to change in ways that would so remove the underpinnings of the church it would perhaps cease to exist? I don’t know. But you have to have accountability somehow in the ministry. I still think a little board elected by the friends in each field is an answer. I think celibacy should be a choice as the Bible suggests is fine. The ministry should have their own accommodations.
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 18:42:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 18:42:51 GMT -5
And my husband says, they could get a job! Maybe being a minister in this church isn’t a full time job? There isn’t much interest and sitting with the friends day after day is boring and unhealthy for everyone. If you think about it ministers with church buildings spend a lot of time maintaining the building. You remove that layer and what do you do all day?
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 19:34:10 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Grant on Jun 15, 2023 19:34:10 GMT -5
And my husband says, they could get a job! Maybe being a minister in this church isn’t a full time job? There isn’t much interest and sitting with the friends day after day is boring and unhealthy for everyone. If you think about it ministers with church buildings spend a lot of time maintaining the building. You remove that layer and what do you do all day? Decons take care of the building matters, that is what they are their for. People have different gifts and the minister maintaining the building is not usually one unless it's a small church and the minister does everything.
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 19:46:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 19:46:30 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest.
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 19:59:51 GMT -5
via mobile
Dan likes this
Post by rebekah on Jun 15, 2023 19:59:51 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them ….
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 15, 2023 20:07:58 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. I think it depends on location, and the energy levels of the lowest common denominator. Eg; A senior companion through age or ill-health may simply not be up for much, so the poor younger companion can be left chafing at the bit, so as to speak. Good on you for being busy
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 20:22:28 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 20:22:28 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. I am guessing you are mostly in city fields? Or larger fields country fields? Many, many workers are in slower, less populated fields. And yes, it depends on your older co.
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 20:38:30 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 20:38:30 GMT -5
Workers have one, sometimes 2, gospel meetings per week where friends and their children come and any outside interest if they have any. During the week workers also attend the Sunday am meeting and the wed study of course. In between they visit the friends mainly. Brother workers are more busy with funerals, attending to internal problems, meetings with other brothers and the more organizational aspects of the church which sisters are exempt from. I suspect our worker poster here is a brother worker.
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Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 21:18:13 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. Also, I don’t believe you are a worker. Lingo doesn’t sound right. I must be saying something workers don’t like though. But who are you really?
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Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 21:23:14 GMT -5
Because if a worker has real interest to reach out to, they have tons of available hours. Having interest is pretty much a feather in your cap because it is rare. Are you saying you have potential interest and better things to do? Bogus. This is nonsense.
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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2023 21:29:00 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. If there is "hardly any outside interest" then the organisation is not doing what it was built for. What is it exactly that outsiders are supposed to be interested in? Is it anything like what was offered 120 years ago before the living witness doctrine took hold?
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Post by Admin on Jun 15, 2023 22:04:44 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. This sounds like pastoral work. Much needed, and really useful right now in this world of ours. Well done!
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 22:22:48 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 22:22:48 GMT -5
Sorry to question, but was admin in the work? Workers don’t say outreach and they don’t say pastoral work. Where would workers do outreach anyway? They don’t mix with the world in any way you would refer to as outreach. They refer to people who have some evidence of potential interest as contacts. When you go to a new field the previous workers will give you their contact lists. Just saying. It doesn’t sound authentic. And, workers have plenty of time even in busy fields with lots of friends because believe me, outside interest is a welcome change from visiting friends again and again who don’t need the visit. It gets pretty discouraging not having interest so yes, there is plenty of time. My sibling in the work says they don’t even worry about outside interest anymore, they are just focusing on keeping the friends kids. But if there was interest there wouldn’t be an obstacle they would not jump over.
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Jim chafee
Jun 15, 2023 22:26:45 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 15, 2023 22:26:45 GMT -5
Sorry to question, but was admin in the work? Workers don’t say outreach and they don’t say pastoral work. Your words. Where would workers do outreach anyway? They don’t mix with the world in any way you would refer to as outreach. They refer to people who have some evidence of potential interest as contacts. When you go to a new field the previous workers will give you their contact lists. Just saying. It doesn’t sound authentic. And, workers have plenty of time even in busy fields with lots of friends because believe me, outside interest is a welcome change from visiting friends again and again who don’t need the visit. It gets pretty discouraging not having interest so yes, there is plenty of time. My sibling in the work says they don’t even worry about outside interest anymore, they are just focusing on keeping the friends kids. But if there was interest there wouldn’t be an obstacle they would not jump over.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 15, 2023 22:28:41 GMT -5
Sorry to question, but was admin in the work? Workers don’t say outreach and they don’t say pastoral work. Where would workers do outreach anyway? They didn’t mix with the world in any way you would refer to as outreach. They refer to people who have some evidence of potential interest as contacts. When you go to a new field the previous workers will give you their contact lists. Just saying. It doesn’t sound authentic. And, workers have plenty or time even in busy fields with lots of friends because believe me, outside interest is a welcome change from visiting friends again and again who don’t need the visit. We had two lovely sister workers here last year, and they were busy. The area is one that used to be serviced by two sets of workers, so there was travel, funerals, multiple meetings in multiple locations, and yes, some "interest" from outside, as it is referred to in "friendly - speak". One in particular had an Energiser battery, and there was certainly no boredom. We have to be careful with generalisations, as what happens in the some parts of the US may not apply to elsewhere in the world.
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Post by Dan on Jun 15, 2023 22:41:58 GMT -5
Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. This sounds like pastoral work. Much needed, and really useful right now in this world of ours. Well done!
Ditto.. Most churches aren't getting much new interest these days, attendance is down and congregations are shrinking. I guess if people want to learn about God, they go online or listen to a TV preacher.
As Paul said in regards to what would proceed the second coming, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). Or as Jesus said, "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man" (Luke 17:26). Wickedness and self-indulgence is everywhere, fewer people care about God.
So most of what's needed now is preserving the flock, that's the pastoral duties that consume Worker's. "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:2-3)
"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28) "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:8).
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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 16, 2023 0:06:40 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. The younger ones are probably out playing hockey, squash and other sports with the younger friends, and the older ones are going house to house gossiping about the last home they visited. Fifty years ago the workers were busy during the day going door to door inviting people to meetings which they had four or five nights a week. Nowadays there are maybe meetings two nights a week and the only people invited are the friends and anyone that approaches with interest. Gone are the days when the workers approach the public. That's why today there is so little outside interest. No interest for outsiders from the inside and no interest from insiders for the outside.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 0:43:54 GMT -5
Sorry to question, but was admin in the work? Workers don’t say outreach and they don’t say pastoral work. Where would workers do outreach anyway? They don’t mix with the world in any way you would refer to as outreach. They refer to people who have some evidence of potential interest as contacts. When you go to a new field the previous workers will give you their contact lists. Just saying. It doesn’t sound authentic. And, workers have plenty of time even in busy fields with lots of friends because believe me, outside interest is a welcome change from visiting friends again and again who don’t need the visit. It gets pretty discouraging not having interest so yes, there is plenty of time. My sibling in the work says they don’t even worry about outside interest anymore, they are just focusing on keeping the friends kids. But if there was interest there wouldn’t be an obstacle they would not jump over. Ummm I don't think Admin has ever made that claim? Or did I miss a post?
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Post by Grant on Jun 16, 2023 1:38:40 GMT -5
Hi! I don’t know about everyone but most of my fellow workers are very busy. I can’t imagine being bored…. 😊 I’m thinking where are these workers?? There are many other things I would love to do (in the way of visits and outreach). and just don’t have enough hours in the day to do them …. The younger ones are probably out playing hockey, squash and other sports with the younger friends, and the older ones are going house to house gossiping about the last home they visited. Fifty years ago the workers were busy during the day going door to door inviting people to meetings which they had four or five nights a week. Nowadays there are maybe meetings two nights a week and the only people invited are the friends and anyone that approaches with interest. Gone are the days when the workers approach the public. That's why today there is so little outside interest. No interest for outsiders from the inside and no interest from insiders for the outside. They are a closed group. Outsiders are met with suspicion except if they attend with the prospect of marrying a professing person or are related to someone in meetings. It seems a bit like William Irvine prepared the way, by stopping preaching and going to Jerusalem to wait for the Lord's return. The workers have stopped going preaching to outsiders and waiting for what?
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Post by Admin on Jun 16, 2023 7:35:22 GMT -5
Sorry to question, but was admin in the work? No.
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Post by Admin on Jun 16, 2023 7:38:11 GMT -5
[Ummm I don't think Admin has ever made that claim? Or did I miss a post? @wally, if I was in 'the work' my gospel meetings would be a pretty exciting ride. You wouldn't want to miss a meeting !
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Post by rebekah on Jun 16, 2023 10:19:20 GMT -5
Because if a worker has real interest to reach out to, they have tons of available hours. Having interest is pretty much a feather in your cap because it is rare. Are you saying you have potential interest and better things to do? Bogus. This is nonsense. Good morning, GetReal. I am sure this has been your experience or this is what you have seen. All I can tell you is that this is not at all my experience….. What do we do in a day? Whew. Well maybe I can only speak for myself…. But our days are very full. I used a couple of phrases not so often used among us. Must we be limited to a certain lingo?😊. I might ordinarily say “reaching out to the community”, but outreach is a word I have seen on here asking why workers don’t do that. I am an actual sister worker. 😊 I go out in to the community as much as I can. I have ideas that I would love to implement (and my peers also would not disagree) and for the last couple years, there just hasn’t been time. But I would love to. I wonder if some of what people are picturing may have been in the past… maybe some country areas…. I’m not sure… not trying to discount that. Just saying that isn’t my experience. My parents always taught me that if I was bored that I wasn’t finding productive things to do with myself, that I needed to look a little deeper, be more creative. So I just see many things to do … and don’t have time to do them all. And for the last several years, we also really have more interest than I feel like we can attend to as much as I would like as the fields are so big. Also a good point that someone else made. We do want to keep the younger ones healthy (in every way) and engaged with things to keep busy with.
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Post by snow on Jun 16, 2023 15:34:59 GMT -5
Yeah, there are committees to oversee, charitable endeavors, volunteer efforts, coordinating with other community programs, informal Bible studies, youth groups, missionary endeavors, music programs, and of course multiple church services, etc. All happening out of the church building. But the fellowship lacks all those trappings, for the most part, which leaves the question what do workers do all day? I know this is an unpopular hated comment but the biggest problem in the work besides celibacy, which feeds into all other problems, is boredom. Not enough mentally or physically to do. This is a church built mainly for one reason, finding the lost. But there is hardly any outside interest. How can there be outside interest when the workers don't get out there and actually mingle in the 'world'? They should be in soup kitchens, organizing food drives, just doing something that gets them out of their little bubble and into the world helping others in need. That would go a long way towards finding people that were interested. The idea of meetings in the home appeals to some people and if there was more substance to what the workers did, they might find they had a bigger following.
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Jim chafee
Jun 16, 2023 15:36:48 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by getreal on Jun 16, 2023 15:36:48 GMT -5
Sorry to question, but was admin in the work? No. I wasn’t trying to sarcastic or something. I really don’t know anything about who runs the board. Your language was curious to me that is all. Again, sorry.
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