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Post by verna on May 13, 2023 10:29:39 GMT -5
Thank you Mountain, Allow me to first state that I understand what you mean with "good workers". However, we should not use this term as some can be offended by it because the Lord Jesus Himself said that "there is none good, save one, that is, God" Luke 18:18-19 :18And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? :19And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. I like to think of them as the true workers, not the reprobate ones that are being exposed now. Titus 1:15-16 :15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. :16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. With 250+ under investigation, and possibly this number has increased since it was first announced, all of us will have to accept this has a profound impact of which the full extent is still to be seen and felt. We have seen on this forum a certain worker refusing to take a stand against abuse; refusing to take a stand against perverts perpetrators and predators. He has since gone cold. Seems the current of reality was too big for him to swim against and he either drowned or got out. The good workers, like you refer to them, I like to think of them as true and not reprobate (Titus 1:15-16) are each dealing with this in his/her own way. They're also at different stages at this. Must also tell you, they don't go through the stages in the same order. Some are more surprised than others, some have worked through anger already and some are still trying to. However, one thing that is very clear is that they're all for the truth to come out. However painful it might be. I think most of the people who have been affected negatively, have left already. A big reason good be they had no recourse. They were trapped in a situation where those who were supposed to care for them were rather thinking of themselves. (Ezekiel 34 speaks much to this) These people ost their confidence in the oversight and left as they had no hope. We must reasonably accept not all instances of abuse will come to light, and possibly there could continue to be new cases. But if the known and reported cases can be dealt with properly, and we see guilty workers and overseers removed from the work and fellowship, there will be no reason for the good workers to leave. If the sick and dead branches are cut out, the good and healthy branches can still produce good fruit of they abide in the Lord. John 15:1-6 :1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. :2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. :3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. :4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. :5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. :6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. We already see oversight in some places taking a strong stand of zero tolerance on all forms of abuse. The days of abusers being harbored and protected are over, and this is very important. Some of the friends are concerned what damage this is doing to the Kingdom? My answer is simply that the damage has been done already, we're just learning every day more about how wide and how high this has been. Every new act of abuse and every new effort of covering something up is what damages the Kingdom. Not the effort to have it dealt with in a right and proper way. Someone else was worried what's going to happen if we loose so many overseers? Progress, is my answer. Nobody is irreplaceable. God's Kingdom is far greater than any individual, or any number of individuals. The true workers are sad fir the abuse that had taken place, and happy that it is being brought to the surface. In a way, a worker does make a sacrifice to leave all and go into the work. It's possible it has cost some more than others. I'm not comparing with others, but I know what it had cost me, and what it still costs me, so I'm totally appalled at what has been taking place. To me both the abuse, the cover-ups and the arrogance to continue in their positions is like making a joke of the true sacrifice of a true worker. So, the true workers are happy to see the process unfold. We don't glee in the sorrow or embarrassment of others. We rejoice in truth. 1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth It is our desire and plea that all who have information that is relevant to this cause, to have the courage and liberty to come forward and report, in confidence, to the Private Investigator Cynthia Liles. It is the truth that will set us free! John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. The true workers, or like you refer to them as the good workers, are looking forward to the new book after this horrendous old book is closed. They find their comfort, hope and purpose in John 15:8-17 :8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. :9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. :10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. :11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. :12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. :13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. :14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. :15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. :16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. :17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. Not all the true workers had first-hand knowledge of the abuse that has been going on. Some had heard whispers. Some heard of cover-ups, and some not. They're not divided along these lines, so to speak, but rather united in a single view that the abuse and cover-ups have to stop, the cleaning process and due process of law must be allowed to take place unhindered so that we can get to a better place than where we were, say before the news of Dean Bruer broke. Personally, I feel very encouraged and very hopeful that a better future is possible. Hard work awaits is, adjustments will have to be made but it will all be worth it when we come out stronger. Jonathon, although it may not seem like it, I do appreciate your thoughtful response to questions/or comments - but you sometimes use terms/concepts that I find ill defined. Can you please define “the kingdom”? Thankyou. Edit - When you refer to the kingdom I’m pretty sure it is interpreted by many/most that you mean the faithful of the 2x2s. In my mind, this contributes to the exclusivity/othering and contributes to the fear of misstep and worker worship that, in my mind lies at the roof of current abuse issues.
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Post by jonathan on May 14, 2023 0:23:16 GMT -5
[quote source="/post/1048904/thread Jonathon, although it may not seem like it, I do appreciate your thoughtful response to questions/or comments - but you sometimes use terms/concepts that I find ill defined. Can you please define “the kingdom”? Thankyou. Edit - When you refer to the kingdom I’m pretty sure it is interpreted by many/most that you mean the faithful of the 2x2s. In my mind, this contributes to the exclusivity/othering and contributes to the fear of misstep and worker worship that, in my mind lies at the roof of current abuse issues.[/quote] Good day Verna, thank you for your kind words, and thank you also for asking me to explain myself. My apologies if my speak left you somewhat confused. To begin with, I'll copy the relevant paragraphs here where I mentioned "Kingdom of God". "Some of the friends are concerned what damage this is doing to the Kingdom? My answer is simply that the damage has been done already, we're just learning every day more about how wide and how high this has been. Every new act of abuse and every new effort of covering something up is what damages the Kingdom. Not the effort to have it dealt with in a right and proper way. Someone else was worried what's going to happen if we loose so many overseers? Progress, is my answer. Nobody is irreplaceable. God's Kingdom is far greater than any individual, or any number of individuals." To me the Kingdom of God is all that is under the control, rule, reign and influence of God. All what is pure, holy, godly, Christlike. The reach and work of the Holy Spirit. All things that pertain to salvation. The rich moments of blessing, as a hymn says, when we have that special contact with God in prayer or meditation. What some on this board has mentioned of not having stereo's, outward appearance, dress code, the gossip and discussion by professing friends and workers of affairs of other professing friends or workers, the exact measurements between tables in the ding sheds for the sake of appearance, men wearing not wearing ties to meetings etc etc is not part of what I see as the Kingdom of God. The time we're living in now the Kingdom of God is in our hearts, and it is to the extent that it is in our hearts that we feel drawn to others who also have the Kingdom of God in their hearts. After the Lord Jesus has come again, He will setup this Kingdom physically on the earth and for a thousand years the devil will be bound and cast into a bottomless pit and Christ will rule and reign in righteousness and peace physically on this earth. Convention venues are mere venues. They're not the Kingdom of God. The damage done to the Kingdom which I referred to in my post, is the victims loosing faith and confidence in God. Some are dunked into deep depressions. They have real issues within and have questions ie if God loves them why does good people do bad things to them etc etc. They won't feel safe in the meetings so they stay away. They are like the little children who were kept away from Jesus, and those guilty of causing this deserves a millstone around their neck and cast into the depths of the sea. (Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2) The victims are left feeling spiritually dead. It's a very interesting study to go through all the references in the 4 Gospels where the Lord Jesus spoke about the Kingdom, and then to go further and go through all the places where the scripture speaks about this coming Kingdom of Christ om earth. The latter chapters in Isaiah has quite a bit of detail, and of course Revelation 20 just to mention a few.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 14, 2023 3:13:04 GMT -5
To me, the "Kingdom" so as to speak, is not defined by a small church to have it's origins in Ireland in the late 1800's.
My father in-law used to say that if heaven and hell are real, and not just man made concepts, then many friends might be very surprised at who might also be there. Maybe Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Ghandi, Maximilian Kolbe to name a few.
Maybe it's all those regardless of church, who God sees something of himself in.
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Post by fixit on May 14, 2023 3:23:48 GMT -5
To me the Kingdom of God is all that is under the control, rule, reign and influence of God. Well said. A lot of workers and friends use the term to refer to the 2x2 organisation and say that God is in control of it. All too often man creates God in man's image.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 14, 2023 3:30:12 GMT -5
You might need to get a NZ Convention posting Jonathan.
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Post by verna on May 14, 2023 9:45:10 GMT -5
Jonathon, although it may not seem like it, I do appreciate your thoughtful response to questions/or comments - but you sometimes use terms/concepts that I find ill defined. Can you please define “the kingdom”? Thankyou. Edit - When you refer to the kingdom I’m pretty sure it is interpreted by many/most that you mean the faithful of the 2x2s. In my mind, this contributes to the exclusivity/othering and contributes to the fear of misstep and worker worship that, in my mind lies at the roof of current abuse issues. Good day Verna, thank you for your kind words, and thank you also for asking me to explain myself. My apologies if my speak left you somewhat confused. To begin with, I'll copy the relevant paragraphs here where I mentioned "Kingdom of God". "Some of the friends are concerned what damage this is doing to the Kingdom? My answer is simply that the damage has been done already, we're just learning every day more about how wide and how high this has been. Every new act of abuse and every new effort of covering something up is what damages the Kingdom. Not the effort to have it dealt with in a right and proper way. Someone else was worried what's going to happen if we loose so many overseers? Progress, is my answer. Nobody is irreplaceable. God's Kingdom is far greater than any individual, or any number of individuals." To me the Kingdom of God is all that is under the control, rule, reign and influence of God. All what is pure, holy, godly, Christlike. The reach and work of the Holy Spirit. All things that pertain to salvation. The rich moments of blessing, as a hymn says, when we have that special contact with God in prayer or meditation. What some on this board has mentioned of not having stereo's, outward appearance, dress code, the gossip and discussion by professing friends and workers of affairs of other professing friends or workers, the exact measurements between tables in the ding sheds for the sake of appearance, men wearing not wearing ties to meetings etc etc is not part of what I see as the Kingdom of God. The time we're living in now the Kingdom of God is in our hearts, and it is to the extent that it is in our hearts that we feel drawn to others who also have the Kingdom of God in their hearts. After the Lord Jesus has come again, He will setup this Kingdom physically on the earth and for a thousand years the devil will be bound and cast into a bottomless pit and Christ will rule and reign in righteousness and peace physically on this earth. Convention venues are mere venues. They're not the Kingdom of God. The damage done to the Kingdom which I referred to in my post, is the victims loosing faith and confidence in God. Some are dunked into deep depressions. They have real issues within and have questions ie if God loves them why does good people do bad things to them etc etc. They won't feel safe in the meetings so they stay away. They are like the little children who were kept away from Jesus, and those guilty of causing this deserves a millstone around their neck and cast into the depths of the sea. (Matthew 18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2) The victims are left feeling spiritually dead. It's a very interesting study to go through all the references in the 4 Gospels where the Lord Jesus spoke about the Kingdom, and then to go further and go through all the places where the scripture speaks about this coming Kingdom of Christ om earth. The latter chapters in Isaiah has quite a bit of detail, and of course Revelation 20 just to mention a few. Jonathon do you acknowledge that when “the friends are concerned what damage this is doing to the Kingdom” that they are specifically referring to the 2x2 faith/way? It’s all well and good to talk about the kingdom being all that is of God and the kingdom of God being in our hearts - but I’m pretty sure that is not what the 2x2 believers hear. And so the exclusivity is reinforced.
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Post by openingact34 on May 14, 2023 10:38:17 GMT -5
To me the Kingdom of God is all that is under the control, rule, reign and influence of God. Well said. A lot of workers and friends use the term to refer to the 2x2 organisation and say that God is in control of it. All too often man creates God in man's image. If you and Jonathan want to start your own religion, then by all means you can redefine the terms to be whatever you like. But you wouldn't join a Catholic church and say: "To me, the Archbishop is this little old lady. And to me, holy water means Tito's Vodka." The workers have always preached about fitting in and filling your place. The doctrines have been established by George Walker, the Carrolls, the Jardines, and others who came before. If you don't like it, you can leave and go to one of 50,000 other religions or start your own!
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Post by snow on May 14, 2023 12:14:36 GMT -5
Well said. A lot of workers and friends use the term to refer to the 2x2 organisation and say that God is in control of it. All too often man creates God in man's image. If you and Jonathan want to start your own religion, then by all means you can redefine the terms to be whatever you like. But you wouldn't join a Catholic church and say: "To me, the Archbishop is this little old lady. And to me, holy water means Tito's Vodka." The workers have always preached about fitting in and filling your place. The doctrines have been established by George Walker, the Carrolls, the Jardines, and others who came before. If you don't like it, you can leave and go to one of 50,000 other religions or start your own! We saw an example of that just lately from IS telling people that are professing on here that they might be happier if they left 'the kingdom' (in quotes was my addition)
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 14, 2023 23:13:30 GMT -5
Perhaps it's time for those millions to be dispersed to all the victims of this organisation in compensation. The gospel of grace says that the millions should be used to buy the head preacher a private jet. I think you're mistaking the gospel of grace with the 'health and wealth' gospel.
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Post by fixit on May 14, 2023 23:33:35 GMT -5
Jonathon do you acknowledge that when “the friends are concerned what damage this is doing to the Kingdom” that they are specifically referring to the 2x2 faith/way? It’s all well and good to talk about the kingdom being all that is of God and the kingdom of God being in our hearts - but I’m pretty sure that is not what the 2x2 believers hear. And so the exclusivity is reinforced. Workers and friends are way too loose with nomenclature. This is what it's about... God’s kingdom cometh not with show, But as a living seed Which in the heart the Lord doth sow, Of all who feel their need.
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Post by Admin on May 15, 2023 9:04:55 GMT -5
Maria's letter
To those who need to hear this: I was a sister worker for approximately five years. There was such joy and love and people were incredibly kind. However, those things cannot negate some of the systemic problems within the ministry that have only been highlighted by the recent news of despicable behavior by some of the brother workers and the resulting cover-ups. When I left the work, I was absolutely traumatized. It’s not a time I particularly like to think or talk about. However, I want to share it here because I’m not alone in this trauma. I don’t think anyone that leaves the work comes out perfectly fine. We all leave pretty messed up and it’s not because we didn’t pray enough or we lost our calling. It’s because the way the work is set up now is a recipe for burnout and trauma. We get in the car with a companion, a suitcase, and prayers. And sure, that’s enough to sustain for a while. You read and you pray and you copy the routines of your older companion because they seem to know what they are doing. You pour your heart and soul into finding something that feeds your heart in order to share it with others in gospel meetings. And it works. For a time. You love the people you are serving. You feel like you are helping them. Sure there’s this brother worker texting you in a way that you aren’t sure is entirely appropriate. But you’re happy. There truly is so much joy and people are so good to you. And time goes on. And you experience more of the love of God’s people. And you go on your first special meeting rounds as a worker. You're surrounded by people who know nothing about you and they are curious about your story. Sometimes that curiosity borders on rude because people just want to know where this brown sister worker came from and don't really want anything edifying other than the satisfaction of their own curiosity but there are truly some amazing people among the friends and they love you even before they meet you simply because of the God you serve. You’re so busy now. You’re running around having three gospel meetings a week and bible studies and you’re learning so much. You’ve decided to read through the bible in chronological order and you feel so connected to God when you pray. But you bought a silly fictional book on your kindle app to read in your “downtime” and now you feel so guilty for spending the friend’s money on something so frivolous so you buckle down and try to do even better. You pray harder and give more of yourself to the people in their homes. And you truly love them all and want only the best things for them and when they share hard stuff with you and your companion you listen and learn and try to help. But there’s still this brother worker texting you in a way that you’re sure now is inappropriate but now you feel like you’re the one who encouraged it because every time you’ve told him to stop and he didn't you still responded and now it’s all your fault so you’re just kind of sick all the time underneath all the happy. But things are still really good. You’ve experienced convention and preps and special meeting rounds and seen what a miracle it is that it works. Yeah, it's a little cringey that the sister workers do the laundry and the cooking while the brothers do "manly" tasks like it's 1950, but it’s so good to be around the other workers. Your brown skin itches when you stay in a bedroom with a gigantic confederate flag on the wall or when one of the friends says something so racist you want to vomit, but you shake it off and continue moving forward. And more time goes on and you block that inappropriate brother worker on your cell phone and when he starts sending emails you block him there and when he sends you letters you throw them away. You feel so much better now and are reinvigorated. Sure you have a coworker that uses guilt and shame as a tool to try and control you and who you don’t agree with about much of anything but it’s just for a year. And when your companion through ignorance answers friends in ways that can retraumatize people you cringe and try to mitigate the damage but you’re just a kid really and aren’t quite equipped with the correct tools yourself. You can get through it. The friends are amazing in your field and you love them and they care for you and despite everything, you make it through by the grace of God and the friends. Now you've been in the work for two and a half years and you're sent on another out of state special meeting rounds. It's an honor and a privilege you're told. And you land and it's a whirlwind of meeting new people and traveling and you don't even have a second to process. And soon you're riding up with one of the local sisters to stay the night at someone's home and you're told that the father of the home no longer lives there because he was caught doing something inappropriate to one of the children in the home. However, that same father is coming over for supper because, apparently, since it's special meeting time he needs a special meeting visit too. And you can't say no and scream at how insane that is because you're young and a sister and this isn't even your state but you watch him like a hawk all through supper. And quietly look up the local hotline and make a mandated report once he leaves because it's very clear that neither the local sister or the mother understand what supervised visits means, as they let him go outside to play with the kids when neither of them intended to go out there with him. But you hardly have a minute to process this insanity because you're going from home to home every night and being told that maybe the fact that I exist as a half black, half white human is God's way of fixing all this race stuff even though this particular person "never understood the whole interracial marriage thing." And on it goes. So much joy and goodness heaped on you that every time you take a breath or feel the need to be just a person and not a worker the guilt nearly cripples you. When at the end of the year your overseer says your companion told him you're too radical and vocal about anti-racism, too liberal, too young to truly understand the way the world works you tuck your rage and hurt inside, and continue going forward. And looking back now, choke on the hypocrisy of reprimanding a young sister worker for speaking up about racism when brothers are running around covering up whole affairs. And soon, some of the hard stuff friends share with you starts bringing up some of your own hard stuff. And again, you don’t quite have the tools to handle it and your companion doesn’t quite have the tools to handle your crazy but it’s still ok. She’s trying her best to help you and you’re trying your best to be ok. You still feel God’s presence when you pray and you still find something to share for gospel meetings so it’s all ok. But you keep on going because the good so much outweighs the bad. And you go and you go and you try and you try until you just can’t anymore and you’re sitting alone in a hotel room with a bottle of pills ready to take your own life. But through timely intervention, you instead go home and have no money and no education and are totally traumatized and sick and have to figure out where you go from here. This is just my story. Now I want to get to the point of why I’m sharing this. First is communication. Communicate with new workers. Communicate with the field. Communicate about what's going on in other fields and other parts of the country. Don't communicate with just a select few. Communicate with everyone. Workers go into the work with no guidelines or idea of what they are getting themselves into. They have no idea what is appropriate behavior and what isn't. A code of conduct would go a long way towards clearing up some of that confusion. Also, communicating about whether there are alleged sex offenders in the field is a must. You made me complicit in endangering children by not telling me there was an alleged offender going to one of the meetings in my field. If workers don't know about the offenders that have been reported in the past, how can we make decisions about where people go to meetings or who is allowed at gospel meetings? Because you better believe I would not have been quiet about allowing children to attend any sort of gathering where an alleged sex offender would have access to them. Where children are concerned we can't take any chances and you make all of us complicit in endangering them when you don't make it known who these offenders are alleged or otherwise. Let's err on the side of protecting victims rather than protecting sex offenders. Zoom and Microsoft Teams are amazing things and those under investigation can attend meetings that way. On that note, another thing that workers need to make an effort to do is be in touch with what is actually going on in the world and what the friends are actually dealing with. This is something that's hard to describe and something I only recognized once I left the work but it's so important. Workers are insulated. The friends are a buffer between the rest of the world and them. And this doesn't work for several reasons. First, it gives workers a skewed perspective of what humanity is. The friends are on their best behavior around the workers. In contrast, it makes the people who don't go to meetings look worse. This makes workers think that the friends are just better people and makes them want to give the friends the benefit of the doubt. In reality, we are all human. Just because a sex offender goes to meetings, doesn't mean he or she is any less prey to their compulsions then a sex offender that doesn't go to meetings. Not only does this layer of disconnect from the real world skew their beliefs about human behavior, it also disconnects them from some of the very real issues that the friends face in their day to day lives. It also, somehow makes workers think technology is bad. Making it possible for people to attend meetings via Zoom or Microsoft Teams is not the same as being an evangelical television preacher. Next, sister workers need to speak up. We need you guys to have a voice and a say in the things that are happening. I understand that it’s hard to see yourselves in any position of authority. And many of you sister workers have said you have no desire to be in any position of authority. But here’s the thing. You may not be able to picture it or have the desire for it, but WE the people you are teaching and loving and helping NEED you to have it. This ridiculous hierarchy among the workers needs to change. The fact that a person is male, does not automatically mean that they should have a meeting and speak for 45 minutes at the end of a special meeting or a convention meeting. By putting a hierarchy on the speaking list, you are automatically telling people, some words are more weighty then others. And that should not be the case since all those words should be coming from God. Brother workers have their place and the vast majority of them are good men, I'm sure. However, they have shown that they are ok with covering up bad behavior. They have shown that they don’t understand what is and isn’t appropriate behavior. Child sexual abuse is always awful and needs to be dealt with directly by the authorities. I think we are all slowly getting on the same page there though a lot of progress needs to be made. However, when brother workers are having affairs with women in the fellowship, aside from not living what they preach, there is a power imbalance that makes this behavior unacceptable as well. They can lie and coerce and lay the blame on the victim and tell their victims they won’t be believed. And somehow, at the end of it all, they can make their victims believe it was consensual or the victim’s fault for tempting them. We need both brother and sister worker overseers to ensure this kind of thing doesn’t get swept under the rug or treated as simply a slip-up or an opportunity to shuffle workers around. We need sister workers to have input on companion lists so abusive behavior from older to younger sister workers doesn’t get overlooked or allowed to continue. We need to hear from the sisters that things will change and not just from brother workers. Sisters are the voice of the vulnerable and the victimized. They are often easier for victims to approach and yet, they have to turn their concerns over to brothers and have those same brothers shut it down or cover it up. That needs to change. I, for one, am sick to death of hearing meaningless apologies from brothers. I want to hear from our sisters that they aren't going to tolerate this behavior anymore either. Since workers are going into people’s homes, they need to give those same people guidelines on how to keep their families safe. We do not know the hearts of people and workers need to do what they can do to protect the most vulnerable among us. Dean and others like him, had access because people inherently trust the workers. So we need to do better in telling them about how to have guests safely in their homes. For instance, have the children sleep upstairs or even in the parent’s room when they have workers in the home. Lastly, finances. My own experience was fraught with what I could and couldn’t spend money on. Nobody told me what to do with the money that was given to me. It was left to me to decide what to do with it and so I’d give some away to people I thought needed it and then just hang on to it or very rarely buy something frivolous like an audiobook that I’d always feel guilty about doing. There needs to be both guidance for the workers and oversight of those finances. There is more I could say about secondary trauma and retraumatization of victims. I could talk about how exiting the work is handled or not handled. I could even talk about racism among the friends and workers since it was such a key component of my own story or discuss the unrealistic idea that workers need to be "on-call" 24-7. However, I will let this rest for now and hope that my voice added to the many others calling for change will help make a difference too. A sister, Maria P.S. Feel free to share this. I don't mind at all.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 13:23:58 GMT -5
Maria, so perfectly expressed. Well done. I am also an x sister worker. I did 11 years in earlier even more oppressive times before the internet. I suspect not a b and r. Not me either. I hear you. So many say, why didn’t you speak up during, and you tried and you explain so well how you pay for speaking up and so you just keep on going and hoping and trying to make it work.m because you love the friends. You are sincere. I was so naive and so in awe kind of and very intimidated. I got more outspoken as time progressed though, obviously. I kept questioning things to other sister workers that I found troubling. I was told not to question. I said, but it is because I questioned that I found the ‘truth’ as I saw it then. They said, but you found it so now stop questioning. You are told to be quiet, fit in, obey. I know the friends who love their workers want to keep the system as is, but if they really understood how they suffer they would want the system to change. Most workers suffer from cognitive dissonance. They are supposed to be the happiest people on earth, but they aren’t. They see so many things that aren’t right but they have to fit in. I remember how we would laugh at some of the workers eccentric behavior and now realize it was signs of mental illness. Many days are just so boring. You go from a challenging job perhaps and then find yourself having tea with old people day after day and in a country field making a big trip to the drug store to maybe choose a different toothpaste as your big outing. There is very little outside interest now. It is maybe easier today with smart phones and the internet but also more dangers for bored minds. I saw older sister workers and so many became a problem. Difficult, unhappy, taking it out on younger sister workers. I didn’t want to become like any oof them. More cognitive dissonance. I left with a tiny bit of money and they did lend me a car for awhile. I was terrified. How do you start over. You feel abandoned at the side of the road. You start getting side eyes at meetings. You are suspect. People turn away. You are she’ll shocked. You have no self confidence. You have no support. But I slowly clawed my way to a new life and I am extraordinarily thankful for my current life. But do I still suffer. Yes. Night terrors. Depression. Anxiety. Dear friends don’t think your even looking or sounding workers are what they seem. Think about all those who leave, the many, and those with mental and physical illnesses and allergies and strange behaviors. It is mental illness. It is maladaptive behaviors. No one should live this life. The ones who appear to do it best are better at lying to themselves and that should scare you.
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Post by snow on May 15, 2023 13:38:07 GMT -5
Maria, so perfectly expressed. Well done. I am also an x sister worker. I did 11 years in earlier even more oppressive times before the internet. I suspect not a b and r. Not me either. I hear you. So many say, why didn’t you speak up during, and you tried and you explain so well how you pay for speaking up and so you just keep on going and hoping and trying to make it work.m because you love the friends. You are sincere. I was so naive and so in awe kind of and very intimidated. I got more outspoken as time progressed though, obviously. I kept questioning things to other sister workers that I found troubling. I was told not to question. I said, but it is because I questioned that I found the ‘truth’ as I saw it then. They said, but you found it so now stop questioning. You are told to be quiet, fit in, obey. I know the friends who love their workers want to keep the system as is, but if they really understood how they suffer they would want the system to change. Most workers suffer from cognitive dissonance. They are supposed to be the happiest people on earth, but they aren’t. They see so many things that aren’t right but they have to fit in. I remember how we would laugh at some of the workers eccentric behavior and now realize it was signs of mental illness. Many days are just so boring. You go from a challenging job perhaps and then find yourself having tea with old people day after day and in a country field making a big trip to the drug store to maybe choose a different toothpaste as your big outing. There is very little outside interest now. It is maybe easier today with smart phones and the internet but also more dangers for bored minds. I saw older sister workers and so many became a problem. Difficult, unhappy, taking it out on younger sister workers. I didn’t want to become like any oof them. More cognitive dissonance. I left with a tiny bit of money and they did lend me a car for awhile. I was terrified. How do you start over. You feel abandoned at the side of the road. You start getting side eyes at meetings. You are suspect. People turn away. You are she’ll shocked. You have no self confidence. You have no support. But I slowly clawed my way to a new life and I am extraordinarily thankful for my current life. But do I still suffer. Yes. Night terrors. Depression. Anxiety. Dear friends don’t think your even looking or sounding workers are what they seem. Think about all those who leave, the many, and those with mental and physical illnesses and allergies and strange behaviors. It is mental illness. It is maladaptive behaviors. No one should live this life. The ones who appear to do it best are better at lying to themselves and that should scare you. From all the letters coming out by sister workers here and on other sites, I am so sad that things were so bad for you. I can sure understand how it could happen in the hierarchy set up of the F&W's.
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Post by getreal on May 15, 2023 14:48:54 GMT -5
After bottling everything up for years it’s hard to fit all your thoughts in one post. What I meant to say about what I would call widespread mental illness of various kinds and severities amongst workers is how much stems from emotional needs not being met. Loneliness. Which sounds so strange because you are with buckets of people all the time and yet, you don’t have that intimacy with one person most of us need. Jesus is supposed to be enough. But we have human needs. Years of missing this thing you need like air is so debilitating mentally and physically. You are not supposed to feel dissatisfied, empty, lonely and so the fault must lie with you. You aren’t submitted enough, willing enough, doing enough, sacrificing enough…you are lacking. I submit that these abusing monsters for the most part weren’t just drawn to a vulnerable population but they were created by a system that is inhuman. You have to be in the work to know how much harm it causes.
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Post by snow on May 15, 2023 15:14:01 GMT -5
After bottling everything up for years it’s hard to fit all your thoughts in one post. What I meant to say about what I would call widespread mental illness of various kinds and severities amongst workers is how much stems from emotional needs not being met. Loneliness. Which sounds so strange because you are with buckets of people all the time and yet, you don’t have that intimacy with one person most of us need. Jesus is supposed to be enough. But we have human needs. Years of missing this thing you need like air is so debilitating mentally and physically. You are not supposed to feel dissatisfied, empty, lonely and so the fault must lie with you. You aren’t submitted enough, willing enough, doing enough, sacrificing enough…you are lacking. I submit that these abusing monsters for the most part weren’t just drawn to a vulnerable population but they were created by a system that is inhuman. You have to be in the work to know how much harm it causes. I get that for sure. No one to really confide in and feel support from. That sure can be lonely. Also, if you need your own space, being in a bubble all the time, always around people, that has to be hard for an introvert. They need their down time to process. I think being a worker would be so hard. I know it would never work for me. At one point that's exactly what I wanted to be when I grew up. I am so thankful now that it never happened.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 15, 2023 15:18:55 GMT -5
Oh I so hope they get everything they need and require !! It is a hard journey they will undergo . Not an easy road . I wish them peace someday soon ! ❤️🙃
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Post by matisse on May 15, 2023 18:17:53 GMT -5
"Get Out!" A spine-chilling horror film about "benevolant racism" directed by Jordan Peele.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2023 19:38:39 GMT -5
"Get Out!" A spine-chilling horror film about "benevolant racism" directed by Jordan Peele. *benevolent Yes, sounds like every libtards dream movie...
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Post by matisse on May 16, 2023 12:39:10 GMT -5
"Get Out!" A spine-chilling horror film about "benevolant racism" directed by Jordan Peele. *benevolent Yes, sounds like every libtards dream movie... I didn't post for your benefit. I recommend that you read, or re-read the letter written by "Maria".
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 14:10:02 GMT -5
*benevolent Yes, sounds like every libtards dream movie... I didn't post for your benefit. I recommend that you read, or re-read the letter written by "Maria". If you don't want responses to your posts, then don't post. Learn how forums work...
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Post by matisse on May 16, 2023 14:26:11 GMT -5
I didn't post for your benefit. I recommend that you read, or re-read the letter written by "Maria". If you don't want responses to your posts, then don't post. Learn how forums work... It was intended as a friendly redirect to something you might not have such a knee-jerk response to.
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Post by getreal on May 16, 2023 15:09:31 GMT -5
Yes, good idea to read and reread Maria’s post. And yes, the fellowship is sadly full of conscious and unconscious racism. I can recall so many things that make me cringe now that I didn’t hear and I accepted it because I was ignorant and drinking the kool-aide. I am sure or many are much more aware now but do they speak up? This should also of course be an area of zero tolerance. If this horror of csa and sa ever gets addressed fully I suppose there is hope of racism being addressed with an equal sense of outrage. Then there is mysogeny. The hierarchy allowing those older to mistreat those who are younger. Isolation. Judging others. There being an ‘other.’ Intolerance of all forms including the LGBTQ. Oh and the lack of transparency regarding money. Authoritarianism. Misguided doctrine. And my sibling in the work telling me they Don’t even concern themselves much with gaining outsiders, they are just trying to keep the children. Well, no wonder some say it should just die as a religion. It is dying. If all this was removed. All this horrible stuff what would be left? I think of little groups of friends here and there and they are deceived granted but they do love each other. Maybe as this crumbles into a ruin they will continue to meet together and support one another for a time. Most will eventually drift over to other churches or just find their own peace. All would be preferable outcomes in my opinion, for what it is worth. You can hear a still small voice better away from the chaos.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 16, 2023 17:38:46 GMT -5
Yes, good idea to read and reread Maria’s post. And yes, the fellowship is sadly full of conscious and unconscious racism. I can recall so many things that make me cringe now that I didn’t hear and I accepted it because I was ignorant and drinking the kool-aide. I am sure or many are much more aware now but do they speak up? This should also of course be an area of zero tolerance. If this horror of csa and sa ever gets addressed fully I suppose there is hope of racism being addressed with an equal sense of outrage. Then there is mysogeny. The hierarchy allowing those older to mistreat those who are younger. Isolation. Judging others. There being an ‘other.’ Intolerance of all forms including the LGBTQ. Oh and the lack of transparency regarding money. Authoritarianism. Misguided doctrine. And my sibling in the work telling me they Don’t even concern themselves much with gaining outsiders, they are just trying to keep the children. Well, no wonder some say it should just die as a religion. It is dying. If all this was removed. All this horrible stuff what would be left? I think of little groups of friends here and there and they are deceived granted but they do love each other. Maybe as this crumbles into a ruin they will continue to meet together and support one another for a time. Most will eventually drift over to other churches or just find their own peace. All would be preferable outcomes in my opinion, for what it is worth. You can hear a still small voice better away from the chaos. It was so sad to read Maria's heart wrenching post. In our country, New Zealand, we are regarded as being one of the examples of colonisation by the British as being done right, in that a Treaty with the indigenous people was signed. And over the last few decades, successive governments have tried to redress wrongs that still occurred to both the Maori and Moriori people. But that is at a legal, governance and financial level.
Conscious and unconscious racism still exists, and it the people in our church are no more exempt than any other group. In fact, Maori are under represented, and there have been very few Maori or part-Maori workers. Te Reo (Maori language) is one of the three official languages of our country, but you never hear Te Reo spoken in the church. I have never heard a worker greet people with Kia Ora, or Tena Koutou, nau mai, haere mai. (Hello, greeting to all, and welcome).
I have, however, heard workers mock the culture, myths and legends that not unlike OT Bible stories, were used to explain life, the land, and it's forming. When I do hear this, I remind them of the fact the church has no more proof of a talking snake or donkey than Maui being fished from the sea.
I have seen lovely old ladies refuse to eat food from a food outlet where the Server is of dark skin, and people preferring to not hire them, which is illegal. These same people will then praise God for his "no respector of persons" attributes. Go figure!
I have heard a Worker speak about the evils of Trans-gendering, and seen a mother rush out of the meeting in tears, because her non-professing child was in the process. I have heard another rather "camp" male worker speak about the evils of homosexuality. These workers are ignorant of genetic makeup, and what is behind someone transitioning. Foreign to me, yes, but the greatest attributes required are empathy kindness and understanding, and these things cannot and should not be attempted to be preached out of people.
Misogyny is alive and well and a number of relationships, and is simply a behavioural issue, that should be addressed. Even in the workers, why does a Sister Worker not get given the closing speaker slot at a convention meeting? Fortunately, secular education is changing society for the better, and this will filter into the church. However, it needs to be acknowledged and addressed.
Just my thoughts on Getreal's great post.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 17:48:23 GMT -5
If you don't want responses to your posts, then don't post. Learn how forums work... It was intended as a friendly redirect to something you might not have such a knee-jerk response to. Friendly? I'd hate to see an unfriendly post from you then...
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 17:50:01 GMT -5
Yes, good idea to read and reread Maria’s post. And yes, the fellowship is sadly full of conscious and unconscious racism. I can recall so many things that make me cringe now that I didn’t hear and I accepted it because I was ignorant and drinking the kool-aide. I am sure or many are much more aware now but do they speak up? This should also of course be an area of zero tolerance. If this horror of csa and sa ever gets addressed fully I suppose there is hope of racism being addressed with an equal sense of outrage. Then there is mysogeny. The hierarchy allowing those older to mistreat those who are younger. Isolation. Judging others. There being an ‘other.’ Intolerance of all forms including the LGBTQ. Oh and the lack of transparency regarding money. Authoritarianism. Misguided doctrine. And my sibling in the work telling me they Don’t even concern themselves much with gaining outsiders, they are just trying to keep the children. Well, no wonder some say it should just die as a religion. It is dying. If all this was removed. All this horrible stuff what would be left? I think of little groups of friends here and there and they are deceived granted but they do love each other. Maybe as this crumbles into a ruin they will continue to meet together and support one another for a time. Most will eventually drift over to other churches or just find their own peace. All would be preferable outcomes in my opinion, for what it is worth. You can hear a still small voice better away from the chaos. There are plenty of other churches that cater to sin try one of those...
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 17:52:59 GMT -5
Yes, good idea to read and reread Maria’s post. And yes, the fellowship is sadly full of conscious and unconscious racism. I can recall so many things that make me cringe now that I didn’t hear and I accepted it because I was ignorant and drinking the kool-aide. I am sure or many are much more aware now but do they speak up? This should also of course be an area of zero tolerance. If this horror of csa and sa ever gets addressed fully I suppose there is hope of racism being addressed with an equal sense of outrage. Then there is mysogeny. The hierarchy allowing those older to mistreat those who are younger. Isolation. Judging others. There being an ‘other.’ Intolerance of all forms including the LGBTQ. Oh and the lack of transparency regarding money. Authoritarianism. Misguided doctrine. And my sibling in the work telling me they Don’t even concern themselves much with gaining outsiders, they are just trying to keep the children. Well, no wonder some say it should just die as a religion. It is dying. If all this was removed. All this horrible stuff what would be left? I think of little groups of friends here and there and they are deceived granted but they do love each other. Maybe as this crumbles into a ruin they will continue to meet together and support one another for a time. Most will eventually drift over to other churches or just find their own peace. All would be preferable outcomes in my opinion, for what it is worth. You can hear a still small voice better away from the chaos. It was so sad to read Maria's heart wrenching post. In our country, New Zealand, we are regarded as being one of the examples of colonisation by the British as being done right, in that a Treaty with the indigenous people was signed. And over the last few decades, successive governments have tried to redress wrongs that still occurred to both the Maori and Moriori people. But that is at a legal, governance and financial level.
Conscious and unconscious racism still exists, and it the people in our church are no more exempt than any other group. In fact, Maori are under represented, and there have been very few Maori or part-Maori workers. Te Reo (Maori language) is one of the three official languages of our country, but you never hear Te Reo spoken in the church. I have never heard a worker greet people with Kia Ora, or Tena Koutou, nau mai, haere mai. (Hello, greeting to all, and welcome).
I have, however, heard workers mock the culture, myths and legends that not unlike OT Bible stories, were used to explain life, the land, and it's forming. When I do hear this, I remind them of the fact the church has no more proof of a talking snake or donkey than Maui being fished from the sea.
I have seen lovely old ladies refuse to eat food from a food outlet where the Server is of dark skin, and people preferring to not hire them, which is illegal. These same people will then praise God for his "no respector of persons" attributes. Go figure!
I have heard a Worker speak about the evils of Trans-gendering, and seen a mother rush out of the meeting in tears, because her non-professing child was in the process. I have heard another rather "camp" male worker speak about the evils of homosexuality. These workers are ignorant of genetic makeup, and what is behind someone transitioning. Foreign to me, yes, but the greatest attributes required are empathy kindness and understanding, and these things cannot and should not be attempted to be preached out of people.
Misogyny is alive and well and a number of relationships, and is simply a behavioural issue, that should be addressed. Even in the workers, why does a Sister Worker not get given the closing speaker slot at a convention meeting? Fortunately, secular education is changing society for the better, and this will filter into the church. However, it needs to be acknowledged and addressed.
Just my thoughts on Getreal's great post.
Sounds like you and most downunders are in the wrong church. Like I told getreal, there are plenty of church's that accommodate sin try one of those.
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Post by openingact34 on May 16, 2023 21:00:37 GMT -5
I have heard a Worker speak about the evils of Trans-gendering, and seen a mother rush out of the meeting in tears, because her non-professing child was in the process. I have heard another rather "camp" male worker speak about the evils of homosexuality. These workers are ignorant of genetic makeup, and what is behind someone transitioning. Foreign to me, yes, but the greatest attributes required are empathy kindness and understanding, and these things cannot and should not be attempted to be preached out of people. That's still amateur level. I've heard the workers preach an unprofessing young man into hell at his funeral in front of his grieving parents. The anti-LGBTQ stuff is not about the workers' doctrine. It's about the hateful nature of Christianity. Read Romans 1 for proof.
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Post by getreal on May 16, 2023 22:55:50 GMT -5
Wally, I have a question for you. I am not gay, lesbian or trans so you can talk to me 🙂. You study a lot and research meanings of words and try to get the context right for your interpretations. Do you get frustrated with workers who know less than you and make mistakes in meetings? I remember an elder corrected me about something after a gospel meeting and I am ashamed to say I didn’t take it well. I was too proud. I was embarrassed. I believed I was inspired by god I guess. Does it bother you that workers don’t have the kind of learning about scriptures that you seem to value so highly. I remember hearing that the workers out in eastern canada were taking some class or classes about the Bible, the history of it, basics. I guess the friends got tired of them making mistakes. Do you think the workers should have some theological education? I suppose such knowledge might undermine what they have been taught? Because if you read only with a bias looking for proof of what you already believe you will not in effect not learn anything truly valid. Just curious.
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