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Post by getreal on May 8, 2023 15:59:13 GMT -5
Sorry. I goofed. I meant to say the 99%, if that’s the number of truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time. Radical thoughts I know.
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Post by Dan on May 8, 2023 21:00:39 GMT -5
Sorry. I goofed. I meant to say the 99%, if that’s the number of truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time. Radical thoughts I know.
That's the over-zealous persecution I referred to in another thread. Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of a few is not justice. That's a, 'Judas screwed-up, so kill the other 11 disciples too' scenario.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on May 8, 2023 21:12:42 GMT -5
Sorry. I goofed. I meant to say the 99%, if that’s the number of truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time. Radical thoughts I know.
That's the over-zealous persecution I referred to in another thread. Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of a few is not justice. That's a, 'Judas screwed-up, so kill the other 11 disciples too' scenario.
Okay. I am tired of hearing this being compared to Judas. It's not really a comprehensive comparison nor does it translate to the current problem totally. Completely different context. Judas wasn't a child sex abuser. No one is stating that the innocent workers should be lynched. Just because people ask questions and discuss the issues at hand doesn't mean they want to hang all the workers. It's OKAY for people to be upset, angry, whatever they feel right now. God can handle it! Where is YOUR faith? Do you trust God? Do you trust that He will get you and the fellowship through this time? Yes, I am challenging you.
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Post by Dan on May 8, 2023 22:10:08 GMT -5
That's the over-zealous persecution I referred to in another thread. Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of a few is not justice. That's a, 'Judas screwed-up, so kill the other 11 disciples too' scenario.
Okay. I am tired of hearing this being compared to Judas. It's not really a comprehensive comparison nor does it translate to the current problem totally. Completely different context. Judas wasn't a child sex abuser. No one is stating that the innocent workers should be lynched. Just because people ask questions and discuss the issues at hand doesn't mean they want to hang all the workers. It's OKAY for people to be upset, angry, whatever they feel right now. God can handle it! Where is YOUR faith? Do you trust God? Do you trust that He will get you and the fellowship through this time? Yes, I am challenging you.
I was responding to getreal's comment; "truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time". That's not distinguishing the good from the bad, thus the phrase 'hang em all'..
Judas was a good example, a bad seed amongst the good. No, he wasn't a child molester, he just turned on Christ and betrayed him, resulting in his trial, beating, and death.
My faith is in Christ, not in other people or a church. So yes, I'm confident that my faith will get me through anything. Perhaps you should challenge those who put their faith in a fellowship that has been shown to have obvious stumbling blocks.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on May 8, 2023 22:56:29 GMT -5
Okay. I am tired of hearing this being compared to Judas. It's not really a comprehensive comparison nor does it translate to the current problem totally. Completely different context. Judas wasn't a child sex abuser. No one is stating that the innocent workers should be lynched. Just because people ask questions and discuss the issues at hand doesn't mean they want to hang all the workers. It's OKAY for people to be upset, angry, whatever they feel right now. God can handle it! Where is YOUR faith? Do you trust God? Do you trust that He will get you and the fellowship through this time? Yes, I am challenging you.
I was responding to getreal's comment; "truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time". That's not distinguishing the good from the bad, thus the phrase 'hang em all'..
Judas was a good example, a bad seed amongst the good. No, he wasn't a child molester, he just turned on Christ and betrayed him, resulting in his trial, beating, and death.
My faith is in Christ, not in other people or a church. So yes, I'm confident that my faith will get me through anything. Perhaps you should challenge those who put their faith in a fellowship that has been shown to have obvious stumbling blocks.
If you truly trust in God and your faith is in Christ you don’t need to worry about innocent workers getting lynched. As to persecution: Christ said we would suffer persecution for His sake.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 1:43:29 GMT -5
Sorry. I goofed. I meant to say the 99%, if that’s the number of truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time. Radical thoughts I know.
That's the over-zealous persecution I referred to in another thread. Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of a few is not justice. That's a, 'Judas screwed-up, so kill the other 11 disciples too' scenario.
Spot on bro!
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 9, 2023 12:15:21 GMT -5
Okay. I am tired of hearing this being compared to Judas. It's not really a comprehensive comparison nor does it translate to the current problem totally. Completely different context. Judas wasn't a child sex abuser. No one is stating that the innocent workers should be lynched. Just because people ask questions and discuss the issues at hand doesn't mean they want to hang all the workers. It's OKAY for people to be upset, angry, whatever they feel right now. God can handle it! Where is YOUR faith? Do you trust God? Do you trust that He will get you and the fellowship through this time? Yes, I am challenging you.
I was responding to getreal's comment; "truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time". That's not distinguishing the good from the bad, thus the phrase 'hang em all'..
Judas was a good example, a bad seed amongst the good. No, he wasn't a child molester, he just turned on Christ and betrayed him, resulting in his trial, beating, and death.
My faith is in Christ, not in other people or a church. So yes, I'm confident that my faith will get me through anything. Perhaps you should challenge those who put their faith in a fellowship that has been shown to have obvious stumbling blocks.
I would challenge you Dan to be a bit more open minded and aware that this fellowship does not revolve around the workers. But there are people who protect them no matter what they do wrong and even enable them. But they have to obey the laws of the land and live within the laws. You don’t seem to understand just how serious the crime of CSA is and how it is viewed by law enforcement. If the friends and workers can’t police themselves adequately other people will have to. The vulnerable ones need to be protected at all costs.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 9, 2023 12:22:18 GMT -5
Sorry. I goofed. I meant to say the 99%, if that’s the number of truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time. Radical thoughts I know.
That's the over-zealous persecution I referred to in another thread. Punishing everyone for the misdeeds of a few is not justice. That's a, 'Judas screwed-up, so kill the other 11 disciples too' scenario.
I wouldn’t define it as persecution. There’s a very hard lesson for folks to learn from all this. Anyone who has life experience knows that sometimes we all pay a partial price for the misdeeds of a few. It’s not fun. But I think we all know that happens. I personally believe most of the workers ARE indeed innocent, especially the newer younger ones and my heart goes out to them. I remind myself that this could be a very difficult time for them! They need all the prayers they can get.
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Post by Dan on May 9, 2023 12:40:45 GMT -5
I was responding to getreal's comment; "truly innocent workers should recommend friends not take in workers and not give money at this time". That's not distinguishing the good from the bad, thus the phrase 'hang em all'..
Judas was a good example, a bad seed amongst the good. No, he wasn't a child molester, he just turned on Christ and betrayed him, resulting in his trial, beating, and death.
My faith is in Christ, not in other people or a church. So yes, I'm confident that my faith will get me through anything. Perhaps you should challenge those who put their faith in a fellowship that has been shown to have obvious stumbling blocks.
I would challenge you Dan to be a bit more open minded and aware that this fellowship does not revolve around the workers. But there are people who protect them no matter what they do wrong and even enable them. But they have to obey the laws of the land and live within the laws. You don’t seem to understand just how serious the crime of CSA is and how it is viewed by law enforcement. If the friends and workers can’t police themselves adequately other people will have to. The vulnerable ones need to be protected at all costs.
Oh I understand how serious CSA is.. In fact, my solution would be somewhat more radical than most people!
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 9, 2023 12:43:23 GMT -5
I would challenge you Dan to be a bit more open minded and aware that this fellowship does not revolve around the workers. But there are people who protect them no matter what they do wrong and even enable them. But they have to obey the laws of the land and live within the laws. You don’t seem to understand just how serious the crime of CSA is and how it is viewed by law enforcement. If the friends and workers can’t police themselves adequately other people will have to. The vulnerable ones need to be protected at all costs.
Oh I understand how serious CSA is.. In fact, my solution would be somewhat more radical than most people!
I can appreciate that! Lol. Don’t do anything you might regret, though.😉
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 9, 2023 13:35:34 GMT -5
I am supplying max pressure about a few workers directly to senior workers . I have called them out . There are many good worker’s who do serve with a pure purpose . Even I can acknowledge that ! I am not bitter ex , but I am pressing the issues . Directly to them via email and texts .
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 9, 2023 13:42:29 GMT -5
Later today I am going to share a SA story , so maybe some will get an idea about the psychological impact and effects . No names will be released .
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 9, 2023 14:39:40 GMT -5
I am supplying max pressure about a few workers directly to senior workers . I have called them out . There are many good worker’s who do serve with a pure purpose . Even I can acknowledge that ! I am not bitter ex , but I am pressing the issues . Directly to them via email and texts . Perhaps keeping some pressure on will ensure it doesn’t get swept under the carpet. But there’s also this: the current workers in charge need to know they are fully supported in taking the zero tolerance stance. I can imagine it’s not always an easy one to enforce. Some tough decisions to make, etc.
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Post by mountain on May 11, 2023 3:28:43 GMT -5
I am supplying max pressure about a few workers directly to senior workers . I have called them out . There are many good worker’s who do serve with a pure purpose . Even I can acknowledge that ! I am not bitter ex , but I am pressing the issues . Directly to them via email and texts . Perhaps keeping some pressure on will ensure it doesn’t get swept under the carpet. But there’s also this: the current workers in charge need to know they are fully supported in taking the zero tolerance stance. I can imagine it’s not always an easy one to enforce. Some tough decisions to make, etc. The pressure must be kept up simply because once it is relaxed this will encourage the ministry to relax its efforts to address the problems. Ultimately, there will be few prosecutions in relation to the amount of complaints received. There are many reasons for this and it is just a fact of life. At the end of the day this could be used to 'show' the problems were nowhere near as major as first perceived and with that will come preservation of the existing system as much as possible. The momentum is with bringing about necessary changes (dealing with perps and victims aside) and this must be seen through. In my view a working group within the sect needs to be set up to see how the sect can continue to function after having adopted all the necessary changes, most of which will be apparent from the recent disclosures and victims' testimonies. The Workers have no homes of their own. However at 'sell all' time they kept a massive carpet because as we've seen they have a use for it!
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Post by Admin on May 12, 2023 18:14:01 GMT -5
Minnesota and Iowa zero tolerance policy going forward May 12 Minnesota and Iowa Policy regarding child sexual abuse Dear Friends It is necessary to be in touch again regarding the abuse issues we all have been trying to process in past weeks. We have prayerfully considered, and researched how to properly address child sexual abuse issues. We have appreciated suggestions sent by professionals about online education. Please understand that in Minnesota and Iowa we have a zero tolerance policy for child sexual abuse, going forward. Once a child abuse allegation is received, the information will be immediately reported to the proper authorities who are equipped and experienced in investigating and handling these issues. The person against whom the allegation is received will be asked to NOT attend meetings of any kind. If the allegation is completely cleared, it will be reassessed. Abuse of any kind has no place in God’s family and child sexual abuse is a crime. If it is reasonably suspected that abuse has occurred it must be reported to the proper authorities in the area the abuse occurred. Reports can be made to local police or by calling an abuse hotline such as 800-656-HOPE. It is the practice of people to not want to expose the sin of someone else. In the case of child sexual abuse all cases must reported and not doing so is against the law. Failing to report only allows perpetrators to continue their devastating behavior, leaves victims without any recourse for justice or treatment, and exposes others to becoming victims of the perpetrator’s abuse. Adult victims of abuse are encouraged to access the RAINN.org online chat or phone hotline which can connect you with support services in your area. Victim trauma education could be helpful for understanding and helping victims of abuse. The effects of abuse are not easily overcome and not well understood by the general public. The workers on the MN/IA staff are required to take the Ministry Safe Awareness Training. It has been available the last fifteen years. This course is available to everyone and is available on line at ministrysafe.com. We are currently asking elders and wives to take the course, also. Elders, please email Bob and Sheri Lundstrom at IAMNSafe@gmail.com, and they will send the relevant information for taking this course. Parents can watch the Parent Training video by Ministry Safe, as well. Below is information compiled with help from CSA professionals. Feel free to reach out to any of us if there are further questions. We have been making efforts to address everyone’s concerns. Sincerely, The Minnesota and Iowa Staff
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Post by jonathan on May 13, 2023 3:22:58 GMT -5
Minnesota and Iowa zero tolerance policy going forward May 12 Minnesota and Iowa Policy regarding child sexual abuse "We have prayerfully considered, and researched how to properly address child sexual abuse issues. We have appreciated suggestions sent by professionals about online education. Please understand that in Minnesota and Iowa we have a zero tolerance policy for child sexual abuse, going forward. Once a child abuse allegation is received, the information will be immediately reported to the proper authorities who are equipped and experienced in investigating and handling these issues. The person against whom the allegation is received will be asked to NOT attend meetings of any kind. If the allegation is completely cleared, it will be reassessed. Abuse of any kind has no place in God’s family and child sexual abuse is a crime. This is good, we can go with this. We need every oversight, everywhere to commit publicly the same. A little slow, but there is progress. Good for ya, MN & IA!
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Post by Admin on May 21, 2023 1:17:39 GMT -5
Some comments from a letter circulated to WA N ID AK friends.
A few weeks ago, I was in a remote village in Asia when I received the first email regarding allegations against Mark. Immediately I was torn. Do I stay or do I volunteer to return? When I prayed about it, the answer was very clear: I needed to offer to return, at least temporarily. Since that time, Wayne, Brian and I have been working as a team. A new overseer for WA, N ID & AK hasn’t been chosen yet.
Since coming home, most of my time has been spent in conversations where workers and friends have been pouring out their hearts. The difficulties we are facing are more serious and far-reaching than I could have ever imagined. I’m simultaneously trying to understand the problem and envision a solution. One important resource has been the friends who have engaged us in point-blank, constructive dialogue. Some solutions are especially elusive. For instance, what is the best way for us to report a concern if we witness inappropriate behavior? Of course, if we are aware of child abuse, we immediately call a hotline or police, but what about other things? We are spending a lot of time and thought on this matter.
Usually when we have a crisis, it only involves a few people — maybe a person, a family, a church, or a field. This crisis involves all of us. Everyone needs help at the same time. Many people are envisioning a different solution at the same time. All of us want change now. That’s one thing that makes our present distress so overwhelming.
One of the workers recently asked the friends in her field, “What do you need from us?” One of the replies was, “We need to see the fruit of the Spirit.” I don’t have the answers for some things, I don’t have the strength for some things, I don’t have the ability' for some things, but I can have the fruit of the Spirit in every situation. The fruit of the Spirit is a benefit to everyone at the same time, both to us and to everyone around us. “Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, temperance' (Gal 5:22-23).
Thanks for welcoming me home and holding me accountable. I pray desperately that I will be true to the responsibility I am given in the challenges and opportunities that are ahead of us. - Darryl Doland
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Post by Admin on May 21, 2023 1:30:27 GMT -5
Recent letter from Johan Kotze, overseer of Sth AfricaDear Fellow Workers & Friends, This finds Jason and me in Johannesburg, busy with the sowing of the seed of the gospel, which is still the power of God unto salvation for each one who believes, as Paul said. What a wonderful privilege to be occupied with something that will have eternal value, the only thing that will matter when the world and all the projects of men have passed away. For our morning reads we have gone through the book of the Acts lately, which we have found very refreshing, endorsing the things we believe and the way we live. Last week we also paid the Vaal Triangle a flying visit and spent two nights at Neill and Estelle Viljoen's in Vereeniging. It was good to notice how well she has recovered from her recent surgery and its various complications. We feel sorry for Veronica, who has had surgery for a perforated ulcer recently, and is still in Sebokeng hospital. Recently a verse "jumped out at me” that meant a great deal to me some years ago, in a particularly trying experience. It just came to my notice with fresh inspiration recently, when feeling absolutely devastated by an unexpected turn of events. “No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is from Me,” Says the LORD.” Isaiah 54:17 There are times we may fear the tongue more than the weapons of war, because we feel so helpless against its onslaught. The tongue often works in secret. It does most of its work in the dark, behind one’s back. Often it is used viciously to undermine the testimony of someone and blacken their reputation. A person feels so helpless and frustrated when you think someone is talking about you and you cannot defend yourself. This verse assures us, however, that God will not let anyone take advantage of us in any way. It is such a lovely thought that nobody can lessen our value to God by anything that is said or done with malicious intent. However, our own reaction to what is said or done can, if we don’t keep close to God and keep in mind that our real opponent is never a person of flesh and blood. We are in a common struggle against the forces of evil. If we seek to show the meekness of Christ in all circumstances, trials can only make us better, and not bitter. The brothers of Joseph could take his coat of many colours, the token of his father’s love and approval, recklessly tear it and dip it in blood. It caused their father to form the wrong conclusion and for about 20 years the blood of a kid could cover their lie, but it could not cleanse their guilt. What is most surprising is that after a while they firmly believed the wrong impression they fabricated, that Joseph was in fact dead. It didn’t change Joseph’s character nor hinder his contact with the Lord, who was with him in every trial. Joseph did not lose his spirit or integrity when in adversity, nor his head or heart when at the top of the kingdom of Egypt. If there is one lesson we can learn from his experience, it is that with God's help, any situation can be used for good, even when others intend it for evil. His positive response transformed each setback into a step forward. The apostle Peter also admonished us in his helpful epistle, which is so very applicable to our times: “Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.” (1 Peter 4:12-13) Also “In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory…” (1 Peter 1:6-8) It has often been quoted in the past: “A faith that can’t be tested, can’t be trusted.” God’s purpose in allowing trials is not only to verify our faith but also to purify it, and remove the dross, like when gold carrying ore has to endure the intense heat of the furnace in order to purify it, by burning up all the impurities and base metals that gives it bulk, but do not add to the real value of the gold. A huge amount of ore is reduced to a very small ingot of gold. While the value of the former was uncertain, the ingot, though small in size, has a determined value. The more Abraham endured the increasing tests of faith, the more valuable his experiences with God became. We have recently witnessed the shining example of at least two brothers who have been treated very harshly and bore the brunt of totally unfair allegations, as far as we can ascertain. They have both come forth as gold, showing an amazingly Christ-like spirit. Harry Brownlee spoke of it being “religion in boots, not religion in books.” We certainly don’t think less of people like that, but in fact, we respect them even more, because they glorify the Son of God by their spirit and behaviour. They show evidence of having the wisdom from above, of which James speaks in his letter (3:17&18), knowing how to apply Biblical truth to everyday life. It was shared once that when a carpenter puts the finishing touches to his work, he normally makes use of sandpaper. It adds a beautiful lustre to his work, bringing out the beauty of the grain of the wood. When he is satisfied with his work, the piece of sandpaper is normally discarded and the finished article is displayed as a showpiece of his skill. It is good if we can endure the “abrasiveness of the sandpaper” and treasure the lessons learned while we forget the bitterness of the experience. The banner of love is best displayed in a storm, so let us endeavour to keep the banner flying at top mast. Keep fighting the good fight of faith till the breaking of the day! Hearty greetings in Christ, Your brother, Johan
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Post by getreal on May 21, 2023 12:45:38 GMT -5
Wow, feeling threatened are you? Its interesting to me how in reading acts they were refreshed to find endorsement of their beliefs and way of life. You would think at this time instead they might be looking within themselves and the Bible and to god for something more than endorsement. How about insights and maybe, correction. They are just doubling down. Everyone speaking anything other than what they want to hear is an enemy. I guess the victims are enemies? Anyone or anything that shows them in a light they do not want to see.
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Post by getreal on May 21, 2023 12:50:01 GMT -5
Some comments from a letter circulated to WA N ID AK friends.A few weeks ago, I was in a remote village in Asia when I received the first email regarding allegations against Mark. Immediately I was torn. Do I stay or do I volunteer to return? When I prayed about it, the answer was very clear: I needed to offer to return, at least temporarily. Since that time, Wayne, Brian and I have been working as a team. A new overseer for WA, N ID & AK hasn’t been chosen yet. Since coming home, most of my time has been spent in conversations where workers and friends have been pouring out their hearts. The difficulties we are facing are more serious and far-reaching than I could have ever imagined. I’m simultaneously trying to understand the problem and envision a solution. One important resource has been the friends who have engaged us in point-blank, constructive dialogue. Some solutions are especially elusive. For instance, what is the best way for us to report a concern if we witness inappropriate behavior? Of course, if we are aware of child abuse, we immediately call a hotline or police, but what about other things? We are spending a lot of time and thought on this matter. Usually when we have a crisis, it only involves a few people — maybe a person, a family, a church, or a field. This crisis involves all of us. Everyone needs help at the same time. Many people are envisioning a different solution at the same time. All of us want change now. That’s one thing that makes our present distress so overwhelming. One of the workers recently asked the friends in her field, “What do you need from us?” One of the replies was, “We need to see the fruit of the Spirit.” I don’t have the answers for some things, I don’t have the strength for some things, I don’t have the ability' for some things, but I can have the fruit of the Spirit in every situation. The fruit of the Spirit is a benefit to everyone at the same time, both to us and to everyone around us. “Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, temperance' (Gal 5:22-23). Thanks for welcoming me home and holding me accountable. I pray desperately that I will be true to the responsibility I am given in the challenges and opportunities that are ahead of us. - Darryl Doland Glad he call it constructive and not destructive conversation. I wonder what tangible changes will come of it?
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Post by Admin on May 22, 2023 8:42:16 GMT -5
A letter from Jim Atcheson to workers and friends dated 29th April 2023 has just surfaced, with further allegations and workers removed from the ministry. It's posted in full on the closed board.
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Post by snow on May 22, 2023 21:04:00 GMT -5
Sounds like SA workers aren't going to do a thing about Kingsley Stone. Can any other jurisdiction intervene?
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 21:16:28 GMT -5
There is another worker letter coming out . I have sent it to be redacted and edited . Hopefully soon .
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Post by jonathan on May 23, 2023 0:37:34 GMT -5
Sounds like SA workers aren't going to do a thing about Kingsley Stone. Can any other jurisdiction intervene? Seems everyone has their hands full keeping their doors closed so the bones don't fall out. Not likely any would want to get involved. One way in which this can unfold is that either they step out of the work because of all they were involved in comes to light, or they realized they don't have much support among the friends anymore and step aside. A big concern is how will they be replaced? By henchmen who will look after them, and cover for them? An absute clean break from the current generation is what is needed.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 23, 2023 1:38:41 GMT -5
Sounds like SA workers aren't going to do a thing about Kingsley Stone. Can any other jurisdiction intervene? Seems everyone has their hands full keeping their doors closed so the bones don't fall out. Not likely any would want to get involved. One way in which this can unfold is that either they step out of the work because of all they were involved in comes to light, or they realized they don't have much support among the friends anymore and step aside. A big concern is how will they be replaced? By henchmen who will look after them, and cover for them? An absute clean break from the current generation is what is needed. Yes we are working on it !
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Post by SharonArnold on May 23, 2023 16:13:16 GMT -5
Sounds like SA workers aren't going to do a thing about Kingsley Stone. Can any other jurisdiction intervene? Seems everyone has their hands full keeping their doors closed so the bones don't fall out. Not likely any would want to get involved. One way in which this can unfold is that either they step out of the work because of all they were involved in comes to light, or they realized they don't have much support among the friends anymore and step aside. A big concern is how will they be replaced? By henchmen who will look after them, and cover for them? An absute clean break from the current generation is what is needed. I like you. I really do. But I should warn you that most workers I have liked in the past did not remain in the work. I like what you are reaching for. It is commendable. Beyond commendable. And, in a just world (at least in a short term, human kind of reckoning) we might hope for the older entrenched management to fall away, and newer, more principled leadership to take its place. And that may happen. I hope it does. But understand what you are up against: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Keep connected to what brings you meaning, purpose, and joy. Don’t be too attached to outcome. And you’ll be okay. More than okay. And know that more people are cheering you on than you could ever imagine.
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Post by openingact34 on May 23, 2023 18:54:15 GMT -5
Sounds like SA workers aren't going to do a thing about Kingsley Stone. Can any other jurisdiction intervene? Seems everyone has their hands full keeping their doors closed so the bones don't fall out. Not likely any would want to get involved. One way in which this can unfold is that either they step out of the work because of all they were involved in comes to light, or they realized they don't have much support among the friends anymore and step aside. A big concern is how will they be replaced? By henchmen who will look after them, and cover for them? An absute clean break from the current generation is what is needed. Now you are talking like William Irvine...
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 23, 2023 22:15:00 GMT -5
Going forward - anyone who hasn't seen the movie SPOTLIGHT needs to. True story of the Boston Globe's investigative reporting team and its campaign in 2001 to uncover widespread, systemic child abuse by Catholic Priests in Massachusetts. The abuse was indeed systemic, and the abuse and coverups went back decades, and to the highest levels. The Two-Twos are currently having their own similar uncovering. We should not be surprised - the catholic system and the two-by-two system bear many similarities.
On 23 May 2023, the New York Times released a story:
Sex Abuse in Catholic Church: Over 1,900 Minors Abused in Illinois, State Says More than 450 credibly accused child sex abusers have ministered in the Catholic Church in Illinois over almost seven decades, the office of the state’s attorney general, Kwame Raoul, said Tuesday in an investigative report. That is more than four times the number that the church had publicly disclosed before 2018, when the state began its investigation. The 696-page report found that clergy members and lay religious brothers had abused at least 1,997 children since 1950 in the state’s six dioceses, including the prominent Archdiocese of Chicago...
The abuse in the Catholic church has continued. It will continue. The abuse in the Two-by-Twos will also continue. Why?
I submit the following quotations from the Spotlight movie:
Sipe: Well, I started my psychotherapy fellowship there in 1965 and I was there for five years, but I spent the next thirty studying abusive priests and their victims.
Mike: Really? That’s been your sole focus?
Sipe: Look, Mike, the church wants us to believe that it’s just a few bad apples, but it’s a much bigger problem than that.
Mike: How much bigger?
Sipe: Well, based on the research, I would classify it as a recognizable psychiatric phenomenon.
... SIPE: I think if you want to understand the crisis, you need to start with the celibacy requirement. That was my first major finding: only 50% of the clergy are celibate.
Now, most of them are having sex with other adults. But this creates a culture of secrecy, that tolerates and even protects pedophiles.
SACHA: So you believe the church is aware of the extent of this ‘crisis?’
SIPE: Absolutely. After the first major scandal in Louisiana, Tom Doyle, the Secretary Canonist for the Papal Nuncio, coauthored a report warning pedophile priests were a billiondollar
liability. That was in 1985. [that report was shelved by the Catholic church]. ...
Robby: We think we have thirteen priests in Boston that fit this pattern [CSA], which would be a very big story. Does that sound right to you? In terms of scale?
SIPE: No. Not really. It sounds low. My estimates suggest six percent act out sexually with minors.
MIKE: Six percent of what?
SIPE: Six percent of all priests.
The Two-by-Two ministry will most likely continue as it does. It will insist on following its non-biblical stance on celibacy for ministers. It will continue to go the way of the Catholic Church. It will continue to create a culture of secrecy that tolerates and even protects pedophiles. The ministry tolerating abuse means it is also tolerated - and conducted - by elders and lay members.
I know that many current workers and overseers mean well, and will attempt to "clean house", BUT THEIR EFFORTS WILL NOT WORK unless the celibacy requirement is changed.
I post this here for posterity.
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