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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 21, 2022 16:34:48 GMT -5
A person can deduce something is true without objective evidence.. Many people have been convicted of crimes on the testimony of a witness or two, yet the gospel is rejected despite many witnesses.
God cannot be proven via conventional evidence because He is beyond our observations, measurements, tests, and methodology of substantiating a truth, so our objectivity can pretty much be thrown out a window. Even a miracle is not evidence, because 'objective' evidence requires our understanding, and since we can't explain a miracle, it can't past our test. That said, there is subjective evidence to support the bible. There is archeological, prophetic, historical, and recorded evidence witnessed by many people. It comes down to Christ, were his words true or false? If he lied, then he was not the Truth, but "No deceit was found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible". Yes, the Truth is accepted by faith, but faith is not based on nothing.
The existence of our universe including our planet is not dependant on the existence of any god. For people who are so ignorant of what the universe actually is, I find it curious that they can even "imagine" anything about its origin. Santa Claus type stories do allow for some very comfortable and vibrant cultural environments, however. Who doesn't find meaning in a once yearly treat to exciting gift giving and a lavish big dinner that gives rhythm to otherwise rather mundane passage of planets through space.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2022 17:05:49 GMT -5
No I don't believe anyone raised anyone from the dead and in the real world we don't see any evidence of anyone able to 'raise the dead'. We do have medical technology that can revive people before too much time passes and they become brain dead, but we don't see anyone being raised from the dead after they've been dead. It's a story in the bible that does not relate to real life reality. You shouldn't just believe something just because the bible says so. I know you do though. You don't require proof. I do. *** The Old and New Testament believers are waiting to recrice the Resurrection bodies like the One Jesus had received AFTER God raised him the dead. If it wasn't for Jesus own Resrrection then the believers will admit once dead is dead for sure. Well, Jesus Christ didn't stay dead so the believers Christ will raise up from the dead when He returns to establish His Eternal kingdom on earth for 1000 years. What part of 'physically dead' don't you understand?
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
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Posts: 3,490
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Free Will
Nov 21, 2022 18:13:39 GMT -5
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Post by nathan2 on Nov 21, 2022 18:13:39 GMT -5
*** The Old and New Testament believers are waiting to recrice the Resurrection bodies like the One Jesus had received AFTER God raised him the dead. If it wasn't for Jesus own Resrrection then the believers will admit once dead is dead for sure. Well, Jesus Christ didn't stay dead so the believers Christ will raise up from the dead when He returns to establish His Eternal kingdom on earth for 1000 years. What part of 'physically dead' don't you understand? ** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 21, 2022 23:56:28 GMT -5
What part of 'physically dead' don't you understand? ** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. What part of buybull mythology do you not understand
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2022 0:00:18 GMT -5
A person can deduce something is true without objective evidence.. Many people have been convicted of crimes on the testimony of a witness or two, yet the gospel is rejected despite many witnesses.
God cannot be proven via conventional evidence because He is beyond our observations, measurements, tests, and methodology of substantiating a truth, so our objectivity can pretty much be thrown out a window. Even a miracle is not evidence, because 'objective' evidence requires our understanding, and since we can't explain a miracle, it can't past our test. That said, there is subjective evidence to support the bible. There is archeological, prophetic, historical, and recorded evidence witnessed by many people. It comes down to Christ, were his words true or false? If he lied, then he was not the Truth, but "No deceit was found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible". Yes, the Truth is accepted by faith, but faith is not based on nothing.
The only thing archeology and the bible tell us is this. These people believed in gods and then one primary god. It doesn't prove that the god they believed in actually existed. Therefore it's not an absolute truth. Absolute truth by it's very definition is something that has been proved. Witnesses in a trial are not absolute truths, they are just used to gather enough evidence that an informed decision can be made about a case. And, we've seen just how well it works with the amount of people that went to jail and weren't guilty. It's not absolute truth in these cases, it's 'reasonable doubt'. It can still be wrong. But you can't tell me that you won't physically die if you quit breathing long enough. Proof should always be required imo. Otherwise you can just believe whatever you want whether it's true or not.
Many (most) of the cities mentioned in the bible have been discovered and actually existed. The temple was real, archeology has proven it. Caiaphas was the actual High Priest when Jesus lived and Pontius Pilate was governor of the province of Judaea (26 – 36 AD). And I won't mention all the prophetic evidence. So your presuming that the gospel writers wrote about real places and real people, but for whatever reason fabricated Christ? Why? What motivated them to create a myth that would get most of them persecuted and killed?
Jesus was the 'absolute truth', it just takes faith to accept it.. Problem is, your definition of 'truth' is limited to what you know and what can be physically demonstrated. Nothing 'absolute' about that. A spiritual reality is unseen and can't be proven by conventional means, although Jesus did physically manifest God on Earth.
And I should mention that my example of Jesus not dying was spiritual not physical. He physically died when he stopped breathing of course, but yet he lives. In God's book, no one has died yet.
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
50%
Posts: 3,490
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Free Will
Nov 22, 2022 0:34:07 GMT -5
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Post by nathan2 on Nov 22, 2022 0:34:07 GMT -5
** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. What part of buybull mythology do you not understand *** An atheist will always be an atheist you better have a change of heart like the good thief on the Cross, on the last minute, Ok. Good luck to you.
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2022 0:46:35 GMT -5
A person can deduce something is true without objective evidence.. Many people have been convicted of crimes on the testimony of a witness or two, yet the gospel is rejected despite many witnesses.
God cannot be proven via conventional evidence because He is beyond our observations, measurements, tests, and methodology of substantiating a truth, so our objectivity can pretty much be thrown out a window. Even a miracle is not evidence, because 'objective' evidence requires our understanding, and since we can't explain a miracle, it can't past our test.
That said, there is subjective evidence to support the bible. There is archeological, prophetic, historical, and recorded evidence witnessed by many people.
It comes down to Christ, were his words true or false? If he lied, then he was not the Truth, but "No deceit was found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible". Yes, the Truth is accepted by faith, but faith is not based on nothing.
While it may be true that a person can deduce something is true without objective evidence you appear to misunderstand what absolute truth is. The purpose of the criminal court is not to establish absolute truth and therefore it’s difficult to see how this reference supports anything relating to absolute truth. As regards proof for God I would suggest that the reason (your) God cannot be proven via conventional evidence is because He is a figment of the human imagination. That’s also why he can’t be observed, measured or tested. It’s also why he is completely silent, completely invisible and appears to be completely oblivious to human suffering despite claims that he is a loving, caring God. When debating the evidence for God it is always enlightening to compare the evidence for the Christian God and a God who is made up. People inevitably struggle to produce any more evidence for a true god than a false god and therefore one can draw one’s own conclusions from that. If there is subjective evidence to support the bible you certainly have avoided presenting it here. This may therefore be a good opportunity to provide the archeological, historical or other credible or tangible evidence (outside of the bible) to support the following biblical based beliefs. Matt10 1 That Adam and Eve existed as real people. 2 That the story of Noah and the Ark is literally true. 3 That the graves really were opened after the supposed resurrection of Jesus and many bodies came out of the graves and went into the holy city and appeared unto many. 4 That Jesus really ascended up to heaven. 5 That Jesus is coming back to earth. 6 That the God of the New Testament is real.
Jesus did prove God exist, you just weren't there to see it. He wasn't a figment of the disciples imagination, they saw him rise from the grave and ascend into heaven. God is spirit (John 4:24), and that's why He can't be observed, measured. or tested. God has not been silent, he communicated with His people all through the old testament, and was physically manifested in Christ. God is not oblivious to suffering either, He has just chosen to allow it because of sin.
God is not a debate, nor does He prove Himself to us. We are here to prove ourselves to Him, not vice versa. The day will come when He does, but in the here & now we are called by faith. There's no free will (choice) when something is proven.
There's a great deal of subjective evidence that suggest the bible is true. People, places, and events recorded in it actually existed and happened. There's prophetic evidence too, and that divine evidence can be found in the 22nd Psalm, Isaiah 53, or Jesus foretelling the destruction of the temple, his death and resurrection, etc. Where's the Temple? Where's His body?
1. Did Ed and Shirley exist as real people? Your question is absurd, the first people created had no birth certificates or photographs if that's what your looking for 2. There was a flood, it explains sea shells on mountain tops. But I personally don't believe Noah's flood was global. 3. Some known Jews appeared in resurrected bodies to further validate the resurrected Christ.
4. Yes, Jesus ascended into heaven, he ain't here is he? The evidence was submitted when he did it, we believe it because we believe those who witnessed it. 5. And yes, God is real, the evidence is in what's seen, everything He created.. But fear not, positive proof is on its way
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Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2022 1:12:43 GMT -5
There was a flood, it explains sea shells on mountain tops. The sea bed was pushed up by tectonic action.
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Post by nathan on Nov 22, 2022 1:21:20 GMT -5
Dan, my friend.... you don't believe in a global flood what happened God the Father the Most High said it was to flood the whole earth because it was all corrupted with Nephilim around the world not just part of it. the water rose over the highest mountain Everest, That was why you see sea shells on the top of the mountain. God wanted to drown all of the Nephim/giants around the world.
Many of the Nephilim escaped and they went into the inner earth to hide and after the world wide flood was over they came up and fill the earth again. 7 nations of the Nephilim lived in the promised land when Moses and the children of Israel arrived there.
youtu.be/fnpfgKg9Src
Would you believe in God words. According to the book of Enoch
[Chapter 9] 1-11 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.' [Chapter 10] 1- 16 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel/Angel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: " Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world." And again the Lord said to Raphael/Angel: " Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.' The Book of Enoch on line READ chapter 1 to chapter 10. Very interesting. Enoch was the great, great grand father of Noah. www.hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html
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Post by Dan on Nov 22, 2022 2:19:24 GMT -5
Dan, my friend.... you don't believe in a global flood what happened God the Father the Most High said it was to flood the whole earth because it was all corrupted with Nephilim around the world not just part of it. the water rose over the highest mountain Everest, That was why you see sea shells on the top of the mountain. God wanted to drown all of the Nephim/giants around the world.
Many of the Nephilim escaped and they went into the inner earth to hide and after the world wide flood was over they came up and fill the earth again. 7 nations of the Nephilim lived in the promised land when Moses and the children of Israel arrived there.
youtu.be/fnpfgKg9Src
Would you believe in God words. According to the book of Enoch
[Chapter 9] 1-11 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.' [Chapter 10] 1- 16 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel/Angel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: " Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world." And again the Lord said to Raphael/Angel: " Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.' The Book of Enoch on line READ chapter 1 to chapter 10. Very interesting. Enoch was the great, great grand father of Noah. www.hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html
Yes, I'm familiar with that passage in Enoch, I just don't believe 'the earth' meant the entire earth. The bible tracks God's chosen people, and the story line is in reference to the descendants of Adam, because it was his bloodline in which Messiah would come. The fallen Angels purposely infiltrated that seed line to pollute and destroy it, the giants (nephilim) were the offspring of that wickedness.
Adams descendants dwelled in a large area east of Eden, and I believe that was the area where the massive flood occurred. "All the earth" pertains to where all the Adamites lived, better phrased as 'all the land (erets)'.. All the land was not all inclusive, but was in reference to the subject being followed, which was the corruption of the offspring of Adam.
Genesis 6:15 states that Noah's ark was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits in size. We know that a cubit was approximately 18 inches, yielding a volume (if perfectly rectangular, the most voluminous possible shape of three unequal dimensions) of 1,518,750 cubic feet. Into this, you must fit two of each of the 30,000,000 species on earth, plus all the food needed to keep all of them alive for about a year (add up the timeline). If this were true, it would not be physically possible to put two of each animal species on earth, plus a years' worth of food for all of them, in a volume of that size. With only 1.2 million cubic feet available on the Ark, Noah would have needed at least 43 arks to accomplish the job of storing all the animals and their required food
I personally don't believe the flood was world-wide in scope. Often, when the bible says "all the earth", its doesn't mean global, but is referring to a specific area affected by what's being described. The deluge was huge, but imo limited to the wickedness which infected the descendants of Adam, it was all the land the Adamic people occupied that flooded. Therefore, Noah did not take 2 of every species on earth, but only those animals indigenous to his area.
Of course, I could be wrong, but this hypotheses makes sense to me. Most Christians disagree.
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Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2022 2:40:41 GMT -5
Often, when the bible says "all the earth", its doesn't mean global, but is referring to a specific area affected by what's being described. True. Does anyone think the Australians came to Solomon seeking his wisdom? 1 Kings 10:24 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
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Post by nathan on Nov 22, 2022 3:03:14 GMT -5
Dan, my friend.... you don't believe in a global flood what happened God the Father the Most High said it was to flood the whole earth because it was all corrupted with Nephilim around the world not just part of it. the water rose over the highest mountain Everest, That was why you see sea shells on the top of the mountain. God wanted to drown all of the Nephim/giants around the world.
Many of the Nephilim escaped and they went into the inner earth to hide and after the world wide flood was over they came up and fill the earth again. 7 nations of the Nephilim lived in the promised land when Moses and the children of Israel arrived there.
youtu.be/fnpfgKg9Src
Would you believe in God words. According to the book of Enoch
[Chapter 9] 1-11 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven. And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.' [Chapter 10] 1- 16 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel/Angel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: " Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world." And again the Lord said to Raphael/Angel: " Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgment he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.' The Book of Enoch on line READ chapter 1 to chapter 10. Very interesting. Enoch was the great, great grand father of Noah. www.hiddenbible.com/enoch/online.html
Yes, I'm familiar with that passage in Enoch, I just don't believe 'the earth' meant the entire earth. The bible tracks God's chosen people, and the story line is in reference to the descendants of Adam, because it was his bloodline in which Messiah would come. The fallen Angels purposely infiltrated that seed line to pollute and destroy it, the giants (nephilim) were the offspring of that wickedness.
Adams descendants dwelled in a large area east of Eden, and I believe that was the area where the massive flood occurred. "All the earth" pertains to where all the Adamites lived, better phrased as 'all the land (erets)'.. All the land was not all inclusive, but was in reference to the subject being followed, which was the corruption of the offspring of Adam.
Genesis 6:15 states that Noah's ark was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits in size. We know that a cubit was approximately 18 inches, yielding a volume (if perfectly rectangular, the most voluminous possible shape of three unequal dimensions) of 1,518,750 cubic feet. Into this, you must fit two of each of the 30,000,000 species on earth, plus all the food needed to keep all of them alive for about a year (add up the timeline). If this were true, it would not be physically possible to put two of each animal species on earth, plus a years' worth of food for all of them, in a volume of that size. With only 1.2 million cubic feet available on the Ark, Noah would have needed at least 43 arks to accomplish the job of storing all the animals and their required food
I personally don't believe the flood was world-wide in scope. Often, when the bible says "all the earth", its doesn't mean global, but is referring to a specific area affected by what's being described. The deluge was huge, but imo limited to the wickedness which infected the descendants of Adam, it was all the land the Adamic people occupied that flooded. Therefore, Noah did not take 2 of every species on earth, but only those animals indigenous to his area.
Of course, I could be wrong, but this hypotheses makes sense to me. Most Christians disagree.
1) If it was a local flood started in central Iraq, where Noah came from, then how did Noah's Ark came to rest 12,000 feet high on Mt. Ararat in Turkey? www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/article/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture#:~:text=Turkey%20a%20Secret-,The%20team%20claims%20to%20have%20found%20in%202007%20and%202008,the%20peak%20of%20Mount%20Ararat. 2) How far from Iraq to Turkey... It's quite a distance. The air travel (bird fly) shortest distance between Iraq and Turkey is 991 km= 616 miles.
How in the world did Noah's Ark came to rest 12,000 feet high on top of Mountain Ararat? If it was a local flood how in the world did the Noah's ark get up 12,000 feet high on a mountain or Ararat in Turkey if it wasn't for a World Wide flood. www.google.com/search?q=How+far+from+Iraq+to+Turkey&sxsrf=ALiCzsa3NjZ52y0QkfcEJh6pHezmTg2Qdw%3A1669103554141&ei=wn98Y5mWCOLb9API6o_QCA&ved=0ahUKEwiZ_7-jp8H7AhXiLX0KHUj1A4oQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=How+far+from+Iraq+to+Turkey&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIGCAAQFhAeMgUIABCGAzIFCAAQhgM6CggAEEcQ1gQQsAM6BAgjECc6BQgAEJECOggIABCxAxCDAToRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCABBDHARDRAzoECAAQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BAgAEAM6CAgAELEDEMkDOgsIABCABBCxAxDJAzoFCC4QgAQ6BQghEKABOgUIIRCrAjoICCEQFhAeEB1KBAhBGABKBAhGGABQhhNYpm1gqHxoBnABeACAAa0BiAGCGJIBBTExLjE4mAEAoAEByAEIwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
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Post by chuck on Nov 22, 2022 3:40:43 GMT -5
What part of buybull mythology do you not understand *** An atheist will always be an atheist you better have a change of heart like the good thief on the Cross, on the last minute, Ok. Good luck to you. I was beginning to think, I haven't seen a threat from Nathan today....
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Post by chuck on Nov 22, 2022 3:41:34 GMT -5
What part of 'physically dead' don't you understand? ** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. "However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on." This is not Jewish thought, this come from people like Socrates and Plato, they were Greek. Jesus was a Hebrew who did not believe this, to him the soul was dead when someone expired......
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Post by Annan on Nov 22, 2022 7:32:46 GMT -5
*** An atheist will always be an atheist you better have a change of heart like the good thief on the Cross, on the last minute, Ok. Good luck to you. I was beginning to think, I haven't seen a threat from Nathan today.... There are days when he doesn't post till late in the day. I keep hoping he was put in time out. It would save me the trouble of having to monitor the forum for threats. I'm tech savvy.
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Post by nathan on Nov 22, 2022 9:42:43 GMT -5
** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. "However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on." This is not Jewish thought, this come from people like Socrates and Plato, they were Greek. Jesus was a Hebrew who did not believe this, to him the soul was dead when someone expired...... READ Luke 16 the story of Rich man and Lazarus Jesus was a Hebrew from the tribe of Judah. Jesus/God would disagree with your Hebraic Jew mindset on once the body died the soul also died.
According to Jesus/a Jew taught in Luke 16 about The soul of the Rich man and Lazarus were NOT Dead, but still conscious after they died physically.
Jesus foretold about his Own death, and resurrection. He said destroy this temple/his body and I will raise it up again. Jesus was telling the truth, his body was in the tomb and his spirit/soul went to hades as all men and women souls must go after they died physically in the Old Testament time.
Under the New Testament all true believers who died their souls go directly to be with God and Christ in heaven, but the non-believers souls go to hades/a temporary Jail house waiting for the final judgment before God, like those unbelievers in the Old Testament are staying now.
After 3 days in hades Jesus set Free all the Old Testament believers souls from there, and God raised him from the dead and gave Him the New Resurrection body, which all of the believers will have when he comes back to establish His eternal kingdom on earth to rule and reign 1000 years.
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Post by Annan on Nov 22, 2022 9:58:36 GMT -5
"However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on." This is not Jewish thought, this come from people like Socrates and Plato, they were Greek. Jesus was a Hebrew who did not believe this, to him the soul was dead when someone expired...... READ Luke 16 the story of Rich man and Lazarus Jesus was a Hebrew from the tribe of Judah. Jesus/God would disagree with your Hebraic Jew mindset on once the body died the soul also died.
According to Jesus/a Jew taught in Luke 16 about The soul of the Rich man and Lazarus were NOT Dead, but still conscious after they died physically.
Jesus foretold about his Own death, and resurrection. He said destroy this temple/his body and I will raise it up again. Jesus was telling the truth, his body was in the tomb and his spirit/soul went to hades as all men and women souls must go after they died physically.
After 3 days in hades Jesus set Free all the Old Testament believers souls from there, and God raised him from the dead and gave Him the New Resurrection body, which all of the believers will have when he comes back to establish His eternal kingdom on earth to rule and reign 1000 years.
Did the holy spit tell you this, Natie? The same holy spit that tells others the opposite of what you claim it tells you? How do you explain that, Natie? Why is it everyone but you is wrong? You’re a legend in your own mind, Natie.
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Post by fixit on Nov 22, 2022 12:35:02 GMT -5
What part of buybull mythology do you not understand *** An atheist will always be an atheist... In the same way that a Buddhist will always be a Buddhist.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2022 13:06:53 GMT -5
The Thief on the cross is our best example so it can happen, the other thief on the cross is our best example of someone faking it...God is well aware of what is going on...We trust him and not ourselves to do justice...He's never wrong... Then why do people here say that other people are 'hellbound'? Regardless, there is Christian doctrine that says that all you have to do to go to heaven is state that you give your life to Jesus and it's a ticket to heaven. I think that doctrine is horrific but I get why some branches of Christianity adopted it. It put more people behind their religion and therefore it brought in more money and created more power by those in top positions in the church. The process of confession and forgiveness is another one that is bogus imo. Go do whatever during the weak, confess on Sunday, do some hail Mary's and you're good to go for another week. When you're dying a priest comes in and gives you absolution (sacrament of reconciliation) and viola good to go no matter how you lived your life. If there is such a thing as god and heaven it should only be allowed to people that lived a decent life, not those who lived a horrible life, but are saved just because they were either 'once saved always saved' or 'gave their life to Jesus' at the end. Constantine is a good example of that last one. He didn't become a Christian until he was dying so he could live however he wanted to. There are only two paths in life. The narrow and the wide. Once you are a believer and are into the meat of the word, it can be very easy to see what path someone is on. Is it the final conclusion? No. But at that moment it appears for them to be the dangerous path. The Thief on the Cross is the example of a last minute save, but it shows that its a 50/50 situation at best and it really is not good odds. We are all condemned from the moment we're born but Christ is the answer for that. Sinning all week and saved on sunday is not what the scriptures teach, it maybe what mankind does but that won't help you when you face God. A priest can't give you absolution only Christ can. Heaven will only be filled with sinners who repented.
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nathan2
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Nathan again
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Free Will
Nov 22, 2022 13:12:52 GMT -5
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Post by nathan2 on Nov 22, 2022 13:12:52 GMT -5
*** An atheist will always be an atheist... In the same way that a Buddhist will always be a Buddhist. ** That is false I was a Buddhist but now I am a follower of Christ. There are many Buddhists have become Christians.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2022 13:13:25 GMT -5
While it may be true that a person can deduce something is true without objective evidence you appear to misunderstand what absolute truth is. The purpose of the criminal court is not to establish absolute truth and therefore it’s difficult to see how this reference supports anything relating to absolute truth. As regards proof for God I would suggest that the reason (your) God cannot be proven via conventional evidence is because He is a figment of the human imagination. That’s also why he can’t be observed, measured or tested. It’s also why he is completely silent, completely invisible and appears to be completely oblivious to human suffering despite claims that he is a loving, caring God. When debating the evidence for God it is always enlightening to compare the evidence for the Christian God and a God who is made up. People inevitably struggle to produce any more evidence for a true god than a false god and therefore one can draw one’s own conclusions from that. If there is subjective evidence to support the bible you certainly have avoided presenting it here. This may therefore be a good opportunity to provide the archeological, historical or other credible or tangible evidence (outside of the bible) to support the following biblical based beliefs. Matt10 1 That Adam and Eve existed as real people. 2 That the story of Noah and the Ark is literally true. 3 That the graves really were opened after the supposed resurrection of Jesus and many bodies came out of the graves and went into the holy city and appeared unto many. 4 That Jesus really ascended up to heaven. 5 That Jesus is coming back to earth. 6 That the God of the New Testament is real.
Jesus did prove God exist, you just weren't there to see it. He wasn't a figment of the disciples imagination, they saw him rise from the grave and ascend into heaven. God is spirit (John 4:24), and that's why He can't be observed, measured. or tested. God has not been silent, he communicated with His people all through the old testament, and was physically manifested in Christ. God is not oblivious to suffering either, He has just chosen to allow it because of sin.
God is not a debate, nor does He prove Himself to us. We are here to prove ourselves to Him, not vice versa. The day will come when He does, but in the here & now we are called by faith. There's no free will (choice) when something is proven.
There's a great deal of subjective evidence that suggest the bible is true. People, places, and events recorded in it actually existed and happened. There's prophetic evidence too, and that divine evidence can be found in the 22nd Psalm, Isaiah 53, or Jesus foretelling the destruction of the temple, his death and resurrection, etc. Where's the Temple? Where's His body?
1. Did Ed and Shirley exist as real people? Your question is absurd, the first people created had no birth certificates or photographs if that's what your looking for 2. There was a flood, it explains sea shells on mountain tops. But I personally don't believe Noah's flood was global. 3. Some known Jews appeared in resurrected bodies to further validate the resurrected Christ.
4. Yes, Jesus ascended into heaven, he ain't here is he? The evidence was submitted when he did it, we believe it because we believe those who witnessed it. 5. And yes, God is real, the evidence is in what's seen, everything He created.. But fear not, positive proof is on its way
Well said brother...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2022 13:17:09 GMT -5
** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. "However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on." This is not Jewish thought, this come from people like Socrates and Plato, they were Greek. Jesus was a Hebrew who did not believe this, to him the soul was dead when someone expired...... Wrong, Jesus spoken of the eternal Soul more than once....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 22, 2022 13:43:02 GMT -5
Then why do people here say that other people are 'hellbound'? Regardless, there is Christian doctrine that says that all you have to do to go to heaven is state that you give your life to Jesus and it's a ticket to heaven. I think that doctrine is horrific but I get why some branches of Christianity adopted it. It put more people behind their religion and therefore it brought in more money and created more power by those in top positions in the church. The process of confession and forgiveness is another one that is bogus imo. Go do whatever during the weak, confess on Sunday, do some hail Mary's and you're good to go for another week. When you're dying a priest comes in and gives you absolution (sacrament of reconciliation) and viola good to go no matter how you lived your life. If there is such a thing as god and heaven it should only be allowed to people that lived a decent life, not those who lived a horrible life, but are saved just because they were either 'once saved always saved' or 'gave their life to Jesus' at the end. Constantine is a good example of that last one. He didn't become a Christian until he was dying so he could live however he wanted to. There are only two paths in life. The narrow and the wide. Once you are a believer and are into the meat of the word, it can be very easy to see what path someone is on. Is it the final conclusion? No. But at that moment it appears for them to be the dangerous path. The Thief on the Cross is the example of a last minute save, but it shows that its a 50/50 situation at best and it really is not good odds. We are all condemned from the moment we're born but Christ is the answer for that. Sinning all week and saved on sunday is not what the scriptures teach, it maybe what mankind does but that won't help you when you face God. A priest can't give you absolution only Christ can. Heaven will only be filled with sinners who repented. That's one hell of a myth for an adult to believe in.
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Post by Grant on Nov 22, 2022 14:13:49 GMT -5
** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. "However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on." This is not Jewish thought, this come from people like Socrates and Plato, they were Greek. Jesus was a Hebrew who did not believe this, to him the soul was dead when someone expired...... When I was visiting the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem we over looked a funeral service at the cemetery. We were told by the guide that the Jews bury their dead sitting up waiting for the resurrection of the dead. That sounds different from what you are saying Chuck. Chabad.org In many cemeteries, the bodies are buried with their feet facing the entrance to the cemetery, to symbolize that they will leave the cemetery at the time of the resurrection of the dead.
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2022 14:23:23 GMT -5
What part of 'physically dead' don't you understand? ** Let me clarify, when we died the physical bodies go back to the dust of the ground the grave, that God and Christ created Adam from. However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on. Read Luke 16 listen to what Jesus said about after deaths of Rich man/atheist and Lazarus/believer bodies back into ground and soul went either to hades or heaven/paradise. After death is the end for the body/Flesh but NOT the end for the soul, it lives on forever after the body had died. Soul is not physical. What I've been talking about is physical death. It is absolute truth that if you hold your breath long enough you will die physically and your body will become dust. That's what this conversation has been about, not souls or spiritual after life.
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Post by snow on Nov 22, 2022 14:28:36 GMT -5
The only thing archeology and the bible tell us is this. These people believed in gods and then one primary god. It doesn't prove that the god they believed in actually existed. Therefore it's not an absolute truth. Absolute truth by it's very definition is something that has been proved. Witnesses in a trial are not absolute truths, they are just used to gather enough evidence that an informed decision can be made about a case. And, we've seen just how well it works with the amount of people that went to jail and weren't guilty. It's not absolute truth in these cases, it's 'reasonable doubt'. It can still be wrong. But you can't tell me that you won't physically die if you quit breathing long enough. Proof should always be required imo. Otherwise you can just believe whatever you want whether it's true or not. Many (most) of the cities mentioned in the bible have been discovered and actually existed. The temple was real, archeology has proven it. Caiaphas was the actual High Priest when Jesus lived and Pontius Pilate was governor of the province of Judaea (26 – 36 AD). And I won't mention all the prophetic evidence. So your presuming that the gospel writers wrote about real places and real people, but for whatever reason fabricated Christ? Why? What motivated them to create a myth that would get most of them persecuted and killed?
Jesus was the 'absolute truth', it just takes faith to accept it.. Problem is, your definition of 'truth' is limited to what you know and what can be physically demonstrated. Nothing 'absolute' about that. A spiritual reality is unseen and can't be proven by conventional means, although Jesus did physically manifest God on Earth.
And I should mention that my example of Jesus not dying was spiritual not physical. He physically died when he stopped breathing of course, but yet he lives. In God's book, no one has died yet.
Archeology proves cities existed. No argument here. It doesn't prove that their belief in a God proves there ever was such a god, just that their belief system worshiped gods that finally settled on their God of War Yahweh. Some of the people probably did exist but that doesn't prove there is a god. Jesus probably did exist as a human that was a descendent of a royal family, David's. That doesn't prove that he was the son of a god, that he died and rose from the dead or any of that story. Paul never met the physical Jesus and he's the one who's belief system seems to have been the one that Modern Christianity ran with. The RCC made up a lot of what people now believe. And, they have changed some of the things that used to be doctrine. Christianity has changed all through it's history.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 22, 2022 14:30:16 GMT -5
"However, your soul/energy or the conscious part of the soul LIVES on." This is not Jewish thought, this come from people like Socrates and Plato, they were Greek. Jesus was a Hebrew who did not believe this, to him the soul was dead when someone expired...... When I was visiting the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem we over looked a funeral service at the cemetery. We were told by the guide that the Jews bury their dead sitting up waiting for the resurrection of the dead. That sounds different from what you are saying Chuck. Chabad.org In many cemeteries, the bodies are buried with their feet facing the entrance to the cemetery, to symbolize that they will leave the cemetery at the time of the resurrection of the dead. I know of a burial in NZ where the dead man was buried head first. It was his two children that did that to him. The site where he is buried is called Rock Etam on Mt Cook Station.
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Post by verna on Nov 22, 2022 14:41:56 GMT -5
Then why do people here say that other people are 'hellbound'? Regardless, there is Christian doctrine that says that all you have to do to go to heaven is state that you give your life to Jesus and it's a ticket to heaven. I think that doctrine is horrific but I get why some branches of Christianity adopted it. It put more people behind their religion and therefore it brought in more money and created more power by those in top positions in the church. The process of confession and forgiveness is another one that is bogus imo. Go do whatever during the weak, confess on Sunday, do some hail Mary's and you're good to go for another week. When you're dying a priest comes in and gives you absolution (sacrament of reconciliation) and viola good to go no matter how you lived your life. If there is such a thing as god and heaven it should only be allowed to people that lived a decent life, not those who lived a horrible life, but are saved just because they were either 'once saved always saved' or 'gave their life to Jesus' at the end. Constantine is a good example of that last one. He didn't become a Christian until he was dying so he could live however he wanted to. There are only two paths in life. The narrow and the wide. Once you are a believer and are into the meat of the word, it can be very easy to see what path someone is on. Is it the final conclusion? No. But at that moment it appears for them to be the dangerous path. The Thief on the Cross is the example of a last minute save, but it shows that its a 50/50 situation at best and it really is not good odds. We are all condemned from the moment we're born but Christ is the answer for that. Sinning all week and saved on sunday is not what the scriptures teach, it maybe what mankind does but that won't help you when you face God. A priest can't give you absolution only Christ can. Heaven will only be filled with sinners who repented. LOL
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