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Post by verna on Jul 29, 2022 17:27:51 GMT -5
It is hard to understand how Workers got this mindset, and then passed it on to some of the Laity. The annoying part is that they make judgement without any research or knowledge of what they are talking about. They are satisfied to remain in ignorance. In the exchange with Lee the Worker gave himself away when he said, "Lee, why would you send this to me?" Not interested to read it, so how could he reach a conclusion that the book was full of half truths. Just complete ignorance. IMO it is a philosophical problem that originated in the crazy mind of William Irvine and got passed down the line like a mental disease. It has weakened to some extent because of better information available now. Also the work of people like Cherie has helped to change people's thinking. Common sense has prevailed. It makes you understand how the mind of one man can contaminate so many minds. That is how cults start. That is why you need to learn as much as you can about anything before you shoot your mouth off. I wonder if Wally will be getting a copy.
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help
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Post by help on Jul 29, 2022 17:46:01 GMT -5
Good question. A watchman should read it so as he knows what he is watching. But then of course if you have the "Holy Spirit" you automatically know everything.
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Post by Lee on Jul 29, 2022 20:05:27 GMT -5
It is hard to understand how Workers got this mindset, and then passed it on to some of the Laity. The annoying part is that they make judgement without any research or knowledge of what they are talking about. They are satisfied to remain in ignorance. In the exchange with Lee the Worker gave himself away when he said, "Lee, why would you send this to me?" He was not interested to read it, so how could he reach a conclusion that the book was full of half truths. Just complete ignorance. IMO it is a philosophical problem that originated in the crazy mind of William Irvine and got passed down the line like a mental disease. It has weakened to some extent because of better information available now. Also the work of people like Cherie has helped to change people's thinking. Common sense has prevailed. It makes you understand how the mind of one man can contaminate so many minds. That is how cults start. That is why you need to learn as much as you can about anything before you shoot your mouth off. I don’t understand their reticence to openly consider their history, except that their conversion experiences are evidently prejudiced by arrogance or presumption. In theory, they could argue Irvine was/is incidental to their Matt 10 persuasion, that going 2x2 was an injunction of Jesus for all time, and the seal of their authenticity. And while this is what they do think of themselves, why do they veil a clearer exposition of their conviction? I think it would beg the question of why they are recommending themselves over Christ. I Corinthians 3 I’m not a fan of the 2x2 laity salvation-by-shirttail concept. It’s another iteration of the prosperity gospel.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 29, 2022 20:14:43 GMT -5
I think the real reasons they have become stuck with the notion that the system wasn't started by Irvine, is that (1) they have gone to great measures to erase Irvine's name from history, (2) they have espoused the notion that they are the ONLY way to salvation, and thus (3) the void of salvation for centuries before Irvine would be incompatible with both (1) and (2).
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help
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Post by help on Jul 29, 2022 20:20:17 GMT -5
Understanding Religious history can help us to see the complexities amongst people, and perhaps help us to understand where they are coming from, even when we may not agree with them. This is true today, but is also true historically.
The tradition of the Catholic Church claims the Catholic Church began with Jesus Christ and his teachings; the Catholic tradition considers that the Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by the Disciples of Jesus.
So actually all ,other Christian denominations were founded by the Catholic Church.
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Post by Lee on Jul 29, 2022 20:25:25 GMT -5
I think the real reasons they have become stuck with the notion that the system wasn't started by Irvine, is that (1) they have gone to great measures to erase Irvine's name from history, (2) they have espoused the notion that they are the ONLY way to salvation, and thus (3) the void of salvation for centuries before Irvine would be incompatible with both (1) and (2). Their answer would be, look at our fellowship. Where’s yours? I pray and sing twice a week, do you? Of course all of this is a diversion from a real study concerned with the cultural tide Irvine rose to popularity in, and why he remains one of the most popular disappeared persons of the twenty-first century. ( to a relatively small group of people on the planet. This is why I read the stars once in a while. Like a Bible.)
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help
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Post by help on Jul 29, 2022 20:30:24 GMT -5
If William Irvine was so popular, how come the 2x2's threw him out. He finished his life a lonely man in exile.
Doubt that WI would make the popularity list in 2022, very few people would even know who he was, including 2x2's. That is why everybody needs to read "Preserving the Truth: The Church without a Name and Its Founder, William Irvine".
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Post by Lee on Jul 29, 2022 20:32:16 GMT -5
Understanding Religious history can help us to see the complexities amongst people, and perhaps help us to understand where they are coming from, even when we may not agree with them. This is true today, but is also true historically. The tradition of the Catholic Church claims the Catholic Church began with Jesus Christ and his teachings; the Catholic tradition considers that the Catholic Church is a continuation of the early Christian community established by the Disciples of Jesus. So actually all ,other Christian denominations were founded by the Catholic Church. I understand the RCC sort of represents a pillar of Christianity, but you’re already getting out in the weeds for me!! People need to think for themselves more, and exercise their relationships with the Holy Spirit more. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to recognize deep state incursions into external representations of Gods people.
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help
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Post by help on Jul 29, 2022 20:38:13 GMT -5
Not sort of, it DOES represent the foundation of the Christian Church.
Unfortunately 2x2's were wrong in making such a claim.
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Post by Lee on Jul 29, 2022 20:42:16 GMT -5
If William Irvine was so popular, how come the 2x2's threw him out. He finished his life a lonely man in exile. He was set up for popularity by superficial theologians and evangelists of his day. Those who responded favorably to him shared his reactionary vitriol. And in some cases, I’m going to say some workers conversions were legitimate repudiations of other ministry’s compromises with various expressions of the prosperity gospel. Indeed, the debate over what a deeply convicted person looks like is not over. Most people on this board, most people who consider themselves to be “modern” reflect three centuries of relative prosperity, a worship of technology and corporate power, and a cavalier attitude towards our creator.
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Post by Lee on Jul 29, 2022 20:45:23 GMT -5
Not sort of, it DOES represent the foundation of the Christian Church. Unfortunately 2x2's were wrong in making such a claim. The foundation is Christ according to Paul.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 29, 2022 20:55:38 GMT -5
LeeThat was rich, Lee! Preserving the Truth rebutted with a hamburger! LOL. The Ostrich Syndrome. You answered well. Will you be continuing to correspond with this worker? Curious who he believes "started the way he believes in?" (and when?) And who he believes William Irvine was/did? One very good reason for you/anyone to notify a worker about my book being published would be so they can be prepared for questions those who read it will be asking the workers. 1 Peter 3:15 " Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." Condemnation without investigation is ignorance! Analogies (hamburgers) are not proof - only illustrations. And his hamburger analogy is a pitiful example of an analogy, as it fast breaks down when carried out further. Analogies are NOT answers!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2022 22:23:07 GMT -5
It is hard to understand how Workers got this mindset, and then passed it on to some of the Laity. The annoying part is that they make judgement without any research or knowledge of what they are talking about. They are satisfied to remain in ignorance. In the exchange with Lee the Worker gave himself away when he said, "Lee, why would you send this to me?" Not interested to read it, so how could he reach a conclusion that the book was full of half truths. Just complete ignorance. IMO it is a philosophical problem that originated in the crazy mind of William Irvine and got passed down the line like a mental disease. It has weakened to some extent because of better information available now. Also the work of people like Cherie has helped to change people's thinking. Common sense has prevailed. It makes you understand how the mind of one man can contaminate so many minds. That is how cults start. That is why you need to learn as much as you can about anything before you shoot your mouth off. I wonder if Wally will be getting a copy. I've gotten quite an earful from her website for years IF her book is like her website, No thanks...
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Post by verna on Jul 29, 2022 23:25:29 GMT -5
I wonder if Wally will be getting a copy. I've gotten quite an earful from her website for years IF her book is like her website, No thanks... What is your problem with what she says? Does it have to do with hamburgers? 😂
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help
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Post by help on Jul 29, 2022 23:27:04 GMT -5
Come on Wally we know you are not like that. You can be nice, value the 2x2 history. It has been recorded in a very accurate way, most interesting. A lot that I never knew about, not derogatory, just accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 6:22:43 GMT -5
Come on Wally we know you are not like that. You can be nice, value the 2x2 history. It has been recorded in a very accurate way, most interesting. A lot that I never knew about, not derogatory, just accurate. I'm sure it is. Does it build up the 2x2's? Promote 2x2's? Encourage people to join the 2x2's? I suspect not(no proof).
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Post by Annan on Jul 30, 2022 6:29:03 GMT -5
Come on Wally we know you are not like that. You can be nice, value the 2x2 history. It has been recorded in a very accurate way, most interesting. A lot that I never knew about, not derogatory, just accurate. Waldo reminds me of my baptist uncle who refused to read any book other than the bible. Afraid to lose his grip on his own reality. I don't understand those who refuse to expand their mind. Many times I have questioned (and still do) what I believe. (Or in this case, do not believe.) I find that "taste and see" is a wonderful experience. If I don't like what I'm tasting, I can always spit it out. Waldo reminds me of a toddler refusing to try new foods. Guided by fear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 6:37:25 GMT -5
Come on Wally we know you are not like that. You can be nice, value the 2x2 history. It has been recorded in a very accurate way, most interesting. A lot that I never knew about, not derogatory, just accurate. Waldo reminds me of my baptist uncle who refused to read any book other than the bible. Afraid to lose his grip on his own reality. I don't understand those who refuse to expand their mind. Many times I have questioned (and still do) what I believe. (Or in this case, do not believe.) I find that "taste and see" is a wonderful experience. If I don't like what I'm tasting, I can always spit it out. Waldo reminds me of a toddler refusing to try new foods. Guided by fear. Glad you posted your own insecurities, good to know.
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help
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Post by help on Jul 30, 2022 6:39:41 GMT -5
Best you buy a copy and find out. Otherwise you will always be wondering.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 6:41:02 GMT -5
Best you buy a copy and find out. Otherwise you will always be wondering. No Thanks, I'm good....
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help
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Post by help on Jul 30, 2022 6:43:42 GMT -5
That is what you think, you may get a big surprise.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 6:44:40 GMT -5
That is what you think, you may get a big surprise. Touché...
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help
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Post by help on Jul 30, 2022 6:45:57 GMT -5
Bad try.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 6:48:00 GMT -5
I noticed you dodged my question, that would be your bad try....
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help
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Post by help on Jul 30, 2022 6:50:27 GMT -5
Think about it tomorrow. Time for me to have a Cruzen and go to bed.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2022 7:08:14 GMT -5
Think about it tomorrow. Time for me to have a Cruzen and go to bed. Alcohol is not the answer...
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Post by Annan on Jul 30, 2022 9:10:33 GMT -5
Think about it tomorrow. Time for me to have a Cruzen and go to bed. Gin&tonic
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Post by Lee on Jul 30, 2022 10:49:19 GMT -5
LeeThat was rich, Lee! Preserving the Truth rebutted with a hamburger! LOL. The Ostrich Syndrome. You answered well. Will you be continuing to correspond with this worker? Curious who he believes "started the way he believes in?" (and when?) And who he believes William Irvine was/did? One very good reason for you/anyone to notify a worker about my book being published would be so they can be prepared for questions those who read it will be asking the workers. 1 Peter 3:15 " Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." Condemnation without investigation is ignorance! Analogies (hamburgers) are not proof - only illustrations. And his hamburger analogy is a pitiful example of an analogy, as it fast breaks down when carried out further. Analogies are NOT answers! The hamburger analogy of something that’s desirable and yet undesirable at once is like the fly in the ointment picture. No problem there, except like you say, it’s not an argument as to why salvation is an unlikely event apart from the workers and their flock. My experience with workers and non workers is that most of them know about William Irvine but don’t see any contradiction between their claim of not having a founder and having one. In the exchange I posted, the worker said he knew about WI and GW and uses the word ‘origins’ to refer to these. My conclusion is the friends are a gathering of people who by initiation or dullness, are readily able and willing to violate the law of non-contradiction (to lie). To describe it politely, they use words and ideas differently from me. Today, whenever I hear them claim they are the only religion that wasn’t started by a man or men, that’s precisely what I hear them tell me they are! It’s important to keep a healthy perspective on their ailment though; cognitive dissonance and prejudice are abundantly present in the human being, and routinely exploited and incentivized by various forms of despotic power. —- I continue to share links to news and opinion pieces with this worker now and then. But after they tried, I made it clear I wasn’t receptive to being proselytized. I also disagreed at length with the worker’s eschatology, pneumatology, and anthropology. So conversation has slowed down a bit.
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