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Post by nathan on Jun 14, 2021 10:00:13 GMT -5
Well at least we can go out with out having to carry a gun and don't take guns to meetings @wally !! you are just victims just waiting for an bad event to happen... We have many disgruntle exes out there and on here, they might want to do something BAD to the meetings they used to go to. I have seen the exes standing outside the convention ground with all kinds of signs. Who knows what they might do next!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2021 18:36:13 GMT -5
you are just victims just waiting for an bad event to happen... We have many disgruntle exes out there and on here, they might want to do something BAD to the meetings they used to go to. I have seen the exes standing outside the convention ground with all kinds of signs. Who knows what they might do next!That's why the workers hire security companies to protect convention goers.
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Post by isittrue on Jun 14, 2021 19:02:03 GMT -5
you are just victims just waiting for an bad event to happen... We have many disgruntle exes out there and on here, they might want to do something BAD to the meetings they used to go to. I have seen the exes standing outside the convention ground with all kinds of signs. Who knows what they might do next!Nathan disgruntled exes are real people just like yourself supposedly create by your god. Do you not ever put your self righteous attitude aside for just one minute and think about what some people's life experience may have been. This supposed god of love that has allowed so many to suffer through different types of abuse and trauma has a major effect on ones life. A lot of the workers have been the ones that have inflicted this abuse over the years. Over the years I have read your Ideas and opinions on TMB. From what I read Nathan you are a extremely self righteous person, you create more harm than good. You are just like William Irvine trying to jam you ideas and views down other peoples throats. People in high places have a long way to fall. In Australia here there are professing people that I know that understand that there church only goes back 120 years and there are others that have all kinds of theories going back forever. My dad had all types of ideas of the history and it had all come from the workers that were around at the time. My dad new nothing about William Irvine, In other family's it was quite well known. In the 1954 at Guilford convention when John Hardy (Head worker) was confronted and questioned of his knowledge of William Irvine he denied knowing the man. When the photo was produced of him standing there with Irvine all hell broke loose. Hardy a man of GOD got on that platform and preached hellfire and brimstone at the people that the man that had turned up at the convention ground was a liar and the devil and no one was to associate with him. Of course the sheep must believe what comes from the platform as the workers sit at the right had of god and they think they are close to god. If a worker can openly deny the evidence in front of a congregation and preach right and wrong and that his church is the only right way then we have a problem. This is some of the history of this cult, how many families were influenced into the meeting based on lies, families destroyed, father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother, sister against sister. Families were cut of from other family members if they didn't join up with the rest this is the history. This is the side that you are not aware of Nathan as you were not raised in it. You speak of exe's that they threaten you and will harm you, have a good look at what dishonest behaviour has already happened within the cult. When time goes on and people find the truth of there family being involved in this cult and things that have been dishonest. Eyes are opened and the truth is exposed. Unfortunately family's have believe systems that vary dependant on what workers were in the area in the early days. Nathan your narrow minded view that exes are bad just shows how you think. I am an ex and and so glad my mind was opened, I can be myself not controlled by men in suits carrying a black book.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2021 19:58:12 GMT -5
We have many disgruntle exes out there and on here, they might want to do something BAD to the meetings they used to go to. I have seen the exes standing outside the convention ground with all kinds of signs. Who knows what they might do next! Nathan disgruntled exes are real people just like yourself supposedly create by your god. Do you not ever put your self righteous attitude aside for just one minute and think about what some people's life experience may have been. This supposed god of love that has allowed so many to suffer through different types of abuse and trauma has a major effect on ones life. A lot of the workers have been the ones that have inflicted this abuse over the years. Over the years I have read your Ideas and opinions on TMB. From what I read Nathan you are a extremely self righteous person, you create more harm than good. You are just like William Irvine trying to jam you ideas and views down other peoples throats. People in high places have a long way to fall. In Australia here there are professing people that I know that understand that there church only goes back 120 years and there are others that have all kinds of theories going back forever. My dad had all types of ideas of the history and it had all come from the workers that were around at the time. My dad new nothing about William Irvine, In other family's it was quite well known. In the 1954 at Guilford convention when John Hardy (Head worker) was confronted and questioned of his knowledge of William Irvine he denied knowing the man. When the photo was produced of him standing there with Irvine all hell broke loose. Hardy a man of GOD got on that platform and preached hellfire and brimstone at the people that the man that had turned up at the convention ground was a liar and the devil and no one was to associate with him. Of course the sheep must believe what comes from the platform as the workers sit at the right had of god and they think they are close to god. If a worker can openly deny the evidence in front of a congregation and preach right and wrong and that his church is the only right way then we have a problem. This is some of the history of this cult, how many families were influenced into the meeting based on lies, families destroyed, father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother, sister against sister. Families were cut of from other family members if they didn't join up with the rest this is the history. This is the side that you are not aware of Nathan as you were not raised in it. You speak of exe's that they threaten you and will harm you, have a good look at what dishonest behaviour has already happened within the cult. When time goes on and people find the truth of there family being involved in this cult and things that have been dishonest. Eyes are opened and the truth is exposed. Unfortunately family's have believe systems that vary dependant on what workers were in the area in the early days. Nathan your narrow minded view that exes are bad just shows how you think. I am an ex and and so glad my mind was opened, I can be myself not controlled by men in suits carrying a black book. Thank you. Very well put. I recall in 1954-55 hearing that a professing Australian man came visiting friends in eastern Canada. I always wondered why the workers went through his suitcase and belongings while he was gone from the house. They were concerned that he was involved in something evil, though I had no idea what it was. It was also about that time that a newly professing young woman had kind of a hysterical fit because someone told her that the way was started by George Walker et al. I remember that somehow they were able to assure her that everything was okay. If only I had been old enough to be asking questions at the time.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 14, 2021 20:26:05 GMT -5
Thank you "isittrue" and well said. Is an "innie" in NZ I am very conscious of some of the goings on that happened "across the ditch". From what I can recall of from my father who was over there at the time, Victoria seemed to experience the worst of it.
We did have some terrible workers here back in those times too. One preached that Catholics had been dead the longest, which is why the stink the most". No wonder they ended up having stones thrown at their mission hall. Nathan may not be aware that just about every activist group in history has resulted from a real or perceived injustice, or been victim of some form of abuse. Disgruntled exes have a reason to be disgruntled, and it is people like him, including some workers, who give them that reason.
Regardless of which church, as one worker here says, you love people people into it, and love them in it. And if they don't come, you love them anyway.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 14, 2021 20:38:25 GMT -5
We have many disgruntle exes out there and on here, they might want to do something BAD to the meetings they used to go to. I have seen the exes standing outside the convention ground with all kinds of signs. Who knows what they might do next! Nathan disgruntled exes are real people just like yourself supposedly create by your god. Do you not ever put your self righteous attitude aside for just one minute and think about what some people's life experience may have been. This supposed god of love that has allowed so many to suffer through different types of abuse and trauma has a major effect on ones life. A lot of the workers have been the ones that have inflicted this abuse over the years. Over the years I have read your Ideas and opinions on TMB. From what I read Nathan you are a extremely self righteous person, you create more harm than good. You are just like William Irvine trying to jam you ideas and views down other peoples throats. People in high places have a long way to fall. In Australia here there are professing people that I know that understand that there church only goes back 120 years and there are others that have all kinds of theories going back forever. My dad had all types of ideas of the history and it had all come from the workers that were around at the time. My dad new nothing about William Irvine, In other family's it was quite well known. In the 1954 at Guilford convention when John Hardy (Head worker) was confronted and questioned of his knowledge of William Irvine he denied knowing the man. When the photo was produced of him standing there with Irvine all hell broke loose. Hardy a man of GOD got on that platform and preached hellfire and brimstone at the people that the man that had turned up at the convention ground was a liar and the devil and no one was to associate with him. Of course the sheep must believe what comes from the platform as the workers sit at the right had of god and they think they are close to god. If a worker can openly deny the evidence in front of a congregation and preach right and wrong and that his church is the only right way then we have a problem. This is some of the history of this cult, how many families were influenced into the meeting based on lies, families destroyed, father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother, sister against sister. Families were cut of from other family members if they didn't join up with the rest this is the history. This is the side that you are not aware of Nathan as you were not raised in it. You speak of exe's that they threaten you and will harm you, have a good look at what dishonest behaviour has already happened within the cult. When time goes on and people find the truth of there family being involved in this cult and things that have been dishonest. Eyes are opened and the truth is exposed. Unfortunately family's have believe systems that vary dependent on what workers were in the area in the early days. Nathan your narrow minded view that exes are bad just shows how you think. I am an ex and and so glad my mind was opened, I can be myself not controlled by men in suits carrying a black book. Thank you, 'isittrue.'
You are right.
Whole families were torn apart and separated until future generations would hardly even know the other side existed!
My father knew two men that were twins and in the work with him.
Having my father's letters, I traced down a son of one of those twin brother workers.
When I asked the son, -who was still "professing," -about his uncle, -he could not tell me anything; -because, as he said, that uncle was not "professing anymore.!"
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Post by nathan on Jun 14, 2021 21:59:43 GMT -5
We have many disgruntle exes out there and on here, they might want to do something BAD to the meetings they used to go to. I have seen the exes standing outside the convention ground with all kinds of signs. Who knows what they might do next! Nathan disgruntled exes are real people just like yourself supposedly create by your god. Do you not ever put your self righteous attitude aside for just one minute and think about what some people's life experience may have been. This supposed god of love that has allowed so many to suffer through different types of abuse and trauma has a major effect on ones life. A lot of the workers have been the ones that have inflicted this abuse over the years. Over the years I have read your Ideas and opinions on TMB. From what I read Nathan you are a extremely self righteous person, you create more harm than good. You are just like William Irvine trying to jam you ideas and views down other peoples throats. People in high places have a long way to fall. In Australia here there are professing people that I know that understand that there church only goes back 120 years and there are others that have all kinds of theories going back forever. My dad had all types of ideas of the history and it had all come from the workers that were around at the time. My dad new nothing about William Irvine, In other family's it was quite well known. In the 1954 at Guilford convention when John Hardy (Head worker) was confronted and questioned of his knowledge of William Irvine he denied knowing the man. When the photo was produced of him standing there with Irvine all hell broke loose. Hardy a man of GOD got on that platform and preached hellfire and brimstone at the people that the man that had turned up at the convention ground was a liar and the devil and no one was to associate with him. Of course the sheep must believe what comes from the platform as the workers sit at the right had of god and they think they are close to god. If a worker can openly deny the evidence in front of a congregation and preach right and wrong and that his church is the only right way then we have a problem. This is some of the history of this cult, how many families were influenced into the meeting based on lies, families destroyed, father against son, mother against daughter, brother against brother, sister against sister. Families were cut of from other family members if they didn't join up with the rest this is the history. This is the side that you are not aware of Nathan as you were not raised in it. You speak of exe's that they threaten you and will harm you, have a good look at what dishonest behaviour has already happened within the cult. When time goes on and people find the truth of there family being involved in this cult and things that have been dishonest. Eyes are opened and the truth is exposed. Unfortunately family's have believe systems that vary dependant on what workers were in the area in the early days. Nathan your narrow minded view that exes are bad just shows how you think. I am an ex and and so glad my mind was opened, I can be myself not controlled by men in suits carrying a black book. Thanks, to John Long's Journal and History of the Vaudois/Waldenses= apostles Paul's converts and followers through the centuries for 1800s, and those like them to the time of the Faith Mission and William Irvine and the early workers. We have a better grasp and understanding of what is really going on.There has always been Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic ministry and fellowship on the earth. The Faith Mission and the 2x2s are NOT the ONLY ones practicing what Jesus had taught the apostles. Jesus said so Himself, His apostolic ministry and New Testament will continue to the time of His return as king of kings to RULE with His people on earth and throughout the Universe.~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2x2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly.
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Post by nathan on Jun 14, 2021 22:06:37 GMT -5
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder).... www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness. So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!) I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 23:14:11 GMT -5
Thank you Isittrue for your post. So glad that you are able to present facts about the deceit in the message that those early Workers preached, that caused so much damage, tearing families apart. A very sore point with me, because I was well aware of the damage caused to my Mother's family in those early days. A close loving family of 6 split in half by a false Gospel. 3 professed, 3 didn't and from that day forward they became a divided family. Nothing should ever break up a happy family, that relationship is sacrosanct and should never be interfered with by anybody and particularly by any man made belief system.
Some like Nathan will keep beating the same drum that those early Workers did. They will try to whitewash what was a deceitful message "From the shores of Galilee". The truth is as the TMB home page states, "This is the church of George Walker, John Hardie, Willie Jamieson, Jack Carroll, and William Irvine". And a few other names could be added like William Carroll. Those early Workers have a lot to answer for. They added all their own rules then tried to flog it as "From the shores of Galilee" Nothing like it but a lot of people were sucked in by it, including my Mother.
Thank goodness that as time has gone on the truth has been exposed and sensible 2x2's accept it. Not a proud start for the 2x2's but sometimes history shouldn't be erased, but doesn't need to be celebrated
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 23:36:19 GMT -5
Thank you Isittrue for your post. So glad that you are able to present facts about the deceit in the message that those early Workers preached, that caused so much damage, tearing families apart. A very sore point with me, because I was well aware of the damage caused to my Mother's family in those early days. A close loving family of 6 split in half by a false Gospel. 3 professed, 3 didn't and from that day forward they became a divided family. Nothing should ever break up a happy family, that relationship is sacrosanct and should never be interfered with by anybody and particularly by any man made belief system. Some like Nathan will keep beating the same drum that those early Workers did. They will try to whitewash what was a deceitful message "From the shores of Galilee". The truth is as the TMB home page states, "This is the church of George Walker, John Hardie, Willie Jamieson, Jack Carroll, and William Irvine". And a few other names could be added like William Carroll. Those early Workers have a lot to answer for. They added all their own rules then tried to flog it as "From the shores of Galilee" Nothing like it but a lot of people were sucked in by it, including my Mother. Thank goodness that as time has gone on the truth has been exposed and sensible 2x2's accept it. Not a proud start for the 2x2's but sometimes history shouldn't be erased, but doesn't need to be celebrated Mat_10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luk_12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Jesus said those two verses no one else....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 14, 2021 23:39:51 GMT -5
Thank you Isittrue for your post. So glad that you are able to present facts about the deceit in the message that those early Workers preached, that caused so much damage, tearing families apart. A very sore point with me, because I was well aware of the damage caused to my Mother's family in those early days. A close loving family of 6 split in half by a false Gospel. 3 professed, 3 didn't and from that day forward they became a divided family. Nothing should ever break up a happy family, that relationship is sacrosanct and should never be interfered with by anybody and particularly by any man made belief system. Some like Nathan will keep beating the same drum that those early Workers did. They will try to whitewash what was a deceitful message "From the shores of Galilee". The truth is as the TMB home page states, "This is the church of George Walker, John Hardie, Willie Jamieson, Jack Carroll, and William Irvine". And a few other names could be added like William Carroll. Those early Workers have a lot to answer for. They added all their own rules then tried to flog it as "From the shores of Galilee" Nothing like it but a lot of people were sucked in by it, including my Mother. Thank goodness that as time has gone on the truth has been exposed and sensible 2x2's accept it. Not a proud start for the 2x2's but sometimes history shouldn't be erased, but doesn't need to be celebrated Mat_10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luk_12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Jesus said those two verses no one else.... That's poorly written fantasy from the book of the talking donkey.
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Post by isittrue on Jun 14, 2021 23:59:18 GMT -5
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder).... www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness. So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!) I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians. Nathan when someone writes: Anyway, potentially the lineage is: to me this means I am not sure, I hope this is how it went. There must be some way to connect the dots with no real proof. It has always been one of the 2x2's theories and belief that they go back to Jesus and there is a clear linage. Speculating how they come to be, that there belief has carried down through the generations. They must believe that this is the case otherwise what is the point. My whole life I have heard and listened to the how they have come to be. Men sitting around at convention talking and discussing what they have been told by a visiting worker and that they SAID. And so the story goes. The record keeping from the past leaves a lot to be desired, a generation could go by before things were recorded, then it was only half a story. The lady that when she cooked a leg of lamb used to always cut the lower half of the leg off when someone questioned here and asked why she did it her answer was her mother used to do it it like that. When it was traced back to the mother and ask why she did it like that it was because her mother did it like that. When the truth was discovered her great grandmother used to always cut the lower portion off the the for the sole reason she only had a very tiny baking pan and the whole leg would not fit. The story had evolved with no true knowledge of the past. Nathan your linage map is pure speculation nothing more. the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ?
Stories are created from partial information and added to to make them believable. What do people want , lets start with magic, add some fantasy and then a really good ending that you get only if your good. The best of stories that are sold need to be tweaked to satisfy the reader, listener. Nathan you have a very negative way of responding with lots of words that break down to very little information and lack of substance. You are one person you do not have all the knowledge, your response to comments is that you know, you have all the answers. Christianity is just another cultural belief system that creates a end of life result that sounds good and pleases the congregation and makes MONEY. Live for today, help the suffering, be fare to others, treat others as you want to be treated. Be involved in helping those that are poor to climb up and improve there life. Focus on the here and now as tomorrow we don't know what it holds. Living for a belief that can not be proven is wasting life. Spend time with family go for a picnic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:01:49 GMT -5
Wally you keep beating your drum along with Nathan. You won't get many that will accept that now, the way they did 100 years ago. People have become a bit more understanding. Splitting up a family for any reason is against all moral principles. You are not in the position to know because you weren't there. Likewise Nathan. It causes irreparable hurt that lasts for the rest of your life.
Just because those things were written in a book 2000 years ago, that does not authenticate it. Common sense should prevail, moral law should take over. Family is one of the most precious gifts that is given to everyone.
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Post by isittrue on Jun 15, 2021 0:05:09 GMT -5
Thank you Isittrue for your post. So glad that you are able to present facts about the deceit in the message that those early Workers preached, that caused so much damage, tearing families apart. A very sore point with me, because I was well aware of the damage caused to my Mother's family in those early days. A close loving family of 6 split in half by a false Gospel. 3 professed, 3 didn't and from that day forward they became a divided family. Nothing should ever break up a happy family, that relationship is sacrosanct and should never be interfered with by anybody and particularly by any man made belief system. Some like Nathan will keep beating the same drum that those early Workers did. They will try to whitewash what was a deceitful message "From the shores of Galilee". The truth is as the TMB home page states, "This is the church of George Walker, John Hardie, Willie Jamieson, Jack Carroll, and William Irvine". And a few other names could be added like William Carroll. Those early Workers have a lot to answer for. They added all their own rules then tried to flog it as "From the shores of Galilee" Nothing like it but a lot of people were sucked in by it, including my Mother. Thank goodness that as time has gone on the truth has been exposed and sensible 2x2's accept it. Not a proud start for the 2x2's but sometimes history shouldn't be erased, but doesn't need to be celebrated Mat_10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luk_12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Jesus said those two verses no one else.... Wally and so the problem goes, create fear in a person's mind and you can then control them. We are taking theses two verses out of a book that has been put together by man to control man.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:16:53 GMT -5
I know the value of a happy, united family because my Wife are so fortunate to have one. Last Sunday we spent a wonderful day together to celebrate my Wife's 80th Birthday. A beautiful time, there is nothing that brings so much pleasure. And that situation should always be protected and any bastard who tries to destroy it should be given quick exit.
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Post by isittrue on Jun 15, 2021 0:18:31 GMT -5
Mat_10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luk_12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. Jesus said those two verses no one else.... Wally and so the problem goes, create fear in a person's mind and you can then control them. We are taking theses two verses out of a book that has been put together by man to control man. Jesus said those two verses no one else.... we don't know for sure we weren't there. It is taken as true because it is in the bible, and that is the only reason .One book can control so many for so long but then along came education and people have to use logic and test their thoughts .People have learnt to question. Once upon a time to question a leader was death so everyone agreed ,this is called fear, control by fear is a powerful thing
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:20:33 GMT -5
Wally you keep beating your drum along with Nathan. You won't get many that will accept that now, the way they did 100 years ago. People have become a bit more understanding. Splitting up a family for any reason is against all moral principles. You are not in the position to know because you weren't there. Likewise Nathan. It causes irreparable hurt that lasts for the rest of your life. Just because those things were written in a book 2000 years ago, that does not authenticate it. Common sense should prevail, moral law should take over. Family is one of the most precious gifts that is given to everyone. that scripture has been around longer than 100 years ago. its not going anywhere anytime soon. the truth will always be told... Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. <<<for those not in the know this means if it comes down to your faith you may have to leave some folks behind if you have to choose. and it doesn't just happen in the truth either. Christ is common sense and moral...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:23:27 GMT -5
Wally and so the problem goes, create fear in a person's mind and you can then control them. We are taking theses two verses out of a book that has been put together by man to control man. Jesus said those two verses no one else.... we don't know for sure we weren't there. It is taken as true because it is in the bible, and that is the only reason .One book can control so many for so long but then along came education and people have to use logic and test their thoughts .People have learnt to question. Once upon a time to question a leader was death so everyone agreed ,this is called fear, control by fear is a powerful thing using that logic then we have to start saying all history is bunk cause we don't know for sure we weren't there....
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Post by isittrue on Jun 15, 2021 0:33:57 GMT -5
Jesus said those two verses no one else.... we don't know for sure we weren't there. It is taken as true because it is in the bible, and that is the only reason .One book can control so many for so long but then along came education and people have to use logic and test their thoughts .People have learnt to question. Once upon a time to question a leader was death so everyone agreed ,this is called fear, control by fear is a powerful thing using that logic then we have to start saying all history is bunk cause we don't know for sure we weren't there....
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Post by isittrue on Jun 15, 2021 0:35:03 GMT -5
Jesus said those two verses no one else.... we don't know for sure we weren't there. It is taken as true because it is in the bible, and that is the only reason .One book can control so many for so long but then along came education and people have to use logic and test their thoughts .People have learnt to question. Once upon a time to question a leader was death so everyone agreed ,this is called fear, control by fear is a powerful thing using that logic then we have to start saying all history is bunk cause we don't know for sure we weren't there.... Wally I was answering your specific statement. And yes history is tested look at the dinosaurs and carbon dating technology
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:37:03 GMT -5
Wally you keep beating your drum along with Nathan. You won't get many that will accept that now, the way they did 100 years ago. People have become a bit more understanding. Splitting up a family for any reason is against all moral principles. You are not in the position to know because you weren't there. Likewise Nathan. It causes irreparable hurt that lasts for the rest of your life. Just because those things were written in a book 2000 years ago, that does not authenticate it. Common sense should prevail, moral law should take over. Family is one of the most precious gifts that is given to everyone. that scripture has been around longer than 100 years ago. its not going anywhere anytime soon. the truth will always be told... Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. <<<for those not in the know this means if it comes down to your faith you may have to leave some folks behind if you have to choose. and it doesn't just happen in the truth either. Christ is common sense and moral... Agreed, that is why you doubt he ever said that. Most likely thrown in by someone else for their own purpose. When the Bible was put together there was a bit of embellishment went on, to suit the plot being hatched, starting the Christian Church.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:39:39 GMT -5
using that logic then we have to start saying all history is bunk cause we don't know for sure we weren't there.... Wally I was answering your specific statement. And yes history is tested look at the dinosaurs and carbon dating technology not all history is tested with carbon dating tech. i hold little regard for carbon dating technologies or any of them for that matter....
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:42:00 GMT -5
that scripture has been around longer than 100 years ago. its not going anywhere anytime soon. the truth will always be told... Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. <<<for those not in the know this means if it comes down to your faith you may have to leave some folks behind if you have to choose. and it doesn't just happen in the truth either. Christ is common sense and moral... Agreed, that is why you doubt he ever said that. Most likely thrown in by someone else for their own purpose. i think you mean why redback doubts he ever said that. i have no doubts he said everything he said or inspired others to say that is in the bible...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 0:45:38 GMT -5
The New Testament is historically unreliable because we don't know who wrote it, we can't be sure of what they actually wrote, and finally, even if we could somehow know both of those things, we can't be sure that the stories have been faithfully passed on.
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Post by nathan on Jun 15, 2021 1:12:09 GMT -5
~~ 2/7/2014 Whathat, an ex-2x2 wrote on the Truth Message Board.
Whathat wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement.
Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder).... www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness. So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is:
Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!) I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians. Nathan when someone writes: Anyway, potentially the lineage is: to me this means I am not sure, I hope this is how it went. There must be some way to connect the dots with no real proof. It has always been one of the 2x2's theories and belief that they go back to Jesus and there is a clear linage. Speculating how they come to be, that there belief has carried down through the generations. They must believe that this is the case otherwise what is the point. My whole life I have heard and listened to the how they have come to be. Men sitting around at convention talking and discussing what they have been told by a visiting worker and that they SAID. And so the story goes. The record keeping from the past leaves a lot to be desired, a generation could go by before things were recorded, then it was only half a story. The lady that when she cooked a leg of lamb used to always cut the lower half of the leg off when someone questioned here and asked why she did it her answer was her mother used to do it it like that. When it was traced back to the mother and ask why she did it like that it was because her mother did it like that. When the truth was discovered her great grandmother used to always cut the lower portion off the the for the sole reason she only had a very tiny baking pan and the whole leg would not fit. The story had evolved with no true knowledge of the past. Nathan your linage map is pure speculation nothing more. the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ?
Stories are created from partial information and added to to make them believable. What do people want , lets start with magic, add some fantasy and then a really good ending that you get only if your good. The best of stories that are sold need to be tweaked to satisfy the reader, listener. Nathan you have a very negative way of responding with lots of words that break down to very little information and lack of substance. You are one person you do not have all the knowledge, your response to comments is that you know, you have all the answers. Christianity is just another cultural belief system that creates a end of life result that sounds good and pleases the congregation and makes MONEY. Live for today, help the suffering, be fare to others, treat others as you want to be treated. Be involved in helping those that are poor to climb up and improve there life. Focus on the here and now as tomorrow we don't know what it holds. Living for a belief that can not be proven is wasting life. Spend time with family go for a picnic. That was Whathat believed and what he wrote is TRUE I have most of the history that he mentioned to back it up in my files and I have posted for 20 years on here. I have been studying these history when I was a worker and I have continued more seriously after I left the work.... Is it true? Yes, it is.I am not wasting my time, or life on TMB, I am laying up my treasures in heaven, you will see later on when the books are opened in the day of Judgement. Rev. 20:12-15 And I/John the apostle saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Yes, I spend time with my wife and family... Thanks, for your concerns.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 1:40:37 GMT -5
The New Testament is historically unreliable because we don't know who wrote it, we can't be sure of what they actually wrote, and finally, even if we could somehow know both of those things, we can't be sure that the stories have been faithfully passed on. sure we do and sure we can... matt, mark, luke and john all wrote matt, mark, luke and john. luke wrote acts paul wrote Romans, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus. paul or possibly luke or timothy wrote hebrews <<<the only one with a question mark James wrote james jude wrote jude peter wrote pet 1 and pet 2 John wrote John 1, john 2, and john 3 and of course John wrote Revelation if a scribe had to help that doesn't change who the book/testimony belongs too. Stephanas and Fortunatus and Achaicus and Timotheus and Titus and Lucas and Tychicus and Epaphroditus and Onesimus. <<<may have helped paul as scribes, and/or were disciples or apostles.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 2:05:28 GMT -5
The Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible, even though it has lost over 300 leaves, is still the earliest complete New Testament, and is the earliest and best witness for some of the books of the Old Testament. It was written in the first half of the fourth century, when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, when all the books of the Bible were collected in one volume for the first time, and the codex (our modern sewn book) achieved its final victory over the roll, a victory only now challenged by the glued book.
Pity about the 300 pages that are missing. Not a problem fill it in with your own ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 2:15:35 GMT -5
The Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible, even though it has lost over 300 leaves, is still the earliest complete New Testament, and is the earliest and best witness for some of the books of the Old Testament. It was written in the first half of the fourth century, when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, when all the books of the Bible were collected in one volume for the first time, and the codex (our modern sewn book) achieved its final victory over the roll, a victory only now challenged by the glued book. Pity about the 300 pages that are missing. Not a problem fill it in with your own ideas. there are more documents than just that one to figure out what the OT and NT bible said....
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