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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 19, 2020 2:07:45 GMT -5
Yes, it's anti what I consider to be authentic Christianity. Before Christianity was religionised, authentic Christians were considered Atheists because they rejected the authorised religions of the society in which they lived. When I hear terms like "core Christian doctrine" and "Christians believe" its a big old red flag for me. I think of the quote by Mahatma Gandhi, “If it weren’t for Christians, I’d be a Christian.” Not quite. If it is the one you are referring to, it is some thing like: I like your Christ but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Fixit's version was the original.
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Post by fixit on Sept 19, 2020 2:23:14 GMT -5
Yes, it's anti what I consider to be authentic Christianity. Before Christianity was religionised, authentic Christians were considered Atheists because they rejected the authorised religions of the society in which they lived. When I hear terms like "core Christian doctrine" and "Christians believe" its a big old red flag for me. I think of the quote by Mahatma Gandhi, “If it weren’t for Christians, I’d be a Christian.” Not quite. If it is the one you are referring to, it is some thing like: I like your Christ but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Ghandi was a sermon-on-the-mount Christian. Gandhi plainly told to Christians that, "Become worthy of the message that is imbedded in the Sermon on the Mount."59 However, he observed that to live their lives in strict accordance with the Sermon on the Mount, there is much to give up and much to remodel immediately.60 Thus, in order to drink deep of the fountains in the Sermon on the Mount, they have to take sack-cloth and ashes.61 Nevertheless, if the Christians of Europe could translate their lives to the simplicity of the message of Jesus, it would give Gandhi such a greater pleasure, as he was looking forward for such an ideal life from Christians, which is encoded in the Sermon.62 Gandhi therefore very much emphasized Jesus' teaching in Matt. 7:21.63 It is not he who says 'Lord, Lord' that is a Christian, but 'He that doeth the will of the Lord' that is a true Christian.64 Hence, for Gandhi, the Christians should not be much worried about organizations, forms of ministry, doctrines, etc., but simply cling to the message of the Sermon on the Mount and live the life as described therein, than merely speaking it or preaching it.65 Because the real imperceptible life meant greater for Gandhi, than the overemphasis given to the visible pulpit and public preaching. So Gandhi very particularly used the analogy of rose in relation to the life enjoined in the Sermon on the Mount. He says: "A rose does not need to preach. It simply spreads its fragrance. The fragrance is its own sermon.”66 But the gospel that Jesus preached is more subtle and fragrant than the gospel of the rose. If the rose needs no agent, much less does the gospel of Christ need any agent.67 Thus, the aroma of Christianity is subtler even than that of the rose and should, therefore, be imparted in an even quieter and more imperceptible manner, if possible.68 So the aroma of the life in accordance with the message of Sermon is subtler and greater than the fragrance of a rose. In fact, Gandhi expected such a greatly transformed mature life from Christians. Mahatma Gandhi and the Sermon on the Mount
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Post by maryhig on Sept 19, 2020 2:46:37 GMT -5
In my experience, those who profess in the 2x2 church don’t differentiate between the God of the OT and the God of the NT. They view the God(s) of the bible as one God. There may be those who take a different view but I have not come across them. In the unlikely event that anyone here did differentiate between the two while professing, then for the purposes of this poll belief in the God of the bible or any biblical based God will do. Matt10 I was somewhat facetious...my experience with the 2x2 church was much the same as yours. However, when you transgress against me, I call on a punishing God; when I transgress against you, I call on a forgiving God. Well that's not the way of Jesus, when they transgressed against him, he asked God to forgive them. When they scourged, mocked and killed him, he said. "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" And he is our example to follow. Jesus was asked by Peter, "Lord how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him seven times?" And Jesus said "no, but I say to you, seventy seven times seven" And I believe that when I've realised that I've sinned against someone, I am to repent and go to God and yes, i pray for forgiveness but then I believe I have to try and put it right with the other person, if I can.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 19, 2020 2:59:37 GMT -5
I neither judge, nor denounce, and nor do I denounce those in non-Christian religions. I have too much experience in dealing with Catholic Priests and Buddhists in Nepal, Salvation Army here helping the Alcoholics etc, and simply feel that the key factor is what is in the heart. God is a label, and not everyone uses the same label, to describe the feeling of a greater presence than Man himself. Yes, there is good and bad everywhere. God doesn't look at the religion, he looks at the heart. There is only one way, and that's the way of Jesus. His way is the way to follow, he preached it and lived it perfectly and he is our example to follow. It's not religion, it's not any certain denomination, it's a way.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 19, 2020 3:02:50 GMT -5
Thanks to those who have voted thus far. The votes to date are interesting in that they show what a diverse bunch we are when it comes to beliefs. However we need more people to vote to get a fuller picture and I would therefore encourage anyone who hasn’t yet voted to do so. So if you haven’t voted please do .... it’s very easy, all you have to do is click on the statement above that most closely reflects your own position as regards belief in God. If you read here only as a guest I would ask that you create an account for the purposes of voting and then vote. The poll is anonymous and you can always delete your account afterwards. And the benefit of voting is that you get to see the results. Whether you’re a believer or a non believer or professing or not professing or exclusive or non exclusive your vote is important. Vote now while you have the chance. Matt10 Sorry I can't vote, as I'm on TMB through Tapatalk and it doesn't show me the poll.
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Post by mountain on Sept 19, 2020 3:24:31 GMT -5
Gandhi has often been misquoted. At the time he was shot (and died) he is said to have reached out towards his assailant and uttered his last words which were reported as...'I forgive you!'
This is false, very false, unless 'Aaarrrgh!' is Urdu for 'I forgive you?'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 5:22:44 GMT -5
Thanks to those who have voted thus far. The votes to date are interesting in that they show what a diverse bunch we are when it comes to beliefs. However we need more people to vote to get a fuller picture and I would therefore encourage anyone who hasn’t yet voted to do so. So if you haven’t voted please do .... it’s very easy, all you have to do is click on the statement above that most closely reflects your own position as regards belief in God. If you read here only as a guest I would ask that you create an account for the purposes of voting and then vote. The poll is anonymous and you can always delete your account afterwards. And the benefit of voting is that you get to see the results. Whether you’re a believer or a non believer or professing or not professing or exclusive or non exclusive your vote is important. Vote now while you have the chance. Matt10 Sorry I can't vote, as I'm on TMB through Tapatalk and it doesn't show me the poll. That’s unfortunate but thanks anyway for considering. Perhaps you should consider engaging through a different route that would allow you to partake in future polling. As I pointed out to Mountain recently during his brief dabble in the world of polling, polls can be good fun. They’re also a great leveller as it doesn’t matter how smart you are or how much faith you have or how good you are at writing, polls treat everyone equally. Matt10
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Post by maryhig on Sept 19, 2020 5:37:42 GMT -5
Sorry I can't vote, as I'm on TMB through Tapatalk and it doesn't show me the poll. That’s unfortunate but thanks anyway for considering. Perhaps you should consider engaging through a different route that would allow you to partake in future polling. As I pointed out to Mountain recently during his brief dabble in the world of polling, polls can be good fun. They’re also a great leveller as it doesn’t matter how smart you are or how much faith you have or how good you are at writing, polls treat everyone equally. Matt10 Can you paste it on here and I'll give you my answer to put on the poll Please?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 9:49:08 GMT -5
That’s unfortunate but thanks anyway for considering. Perhaps you should consider engaging through a different route that would allow you to partake in future polling. As I pointed out to Mountain recently during his brief dabble in the world of polling, polls can be good fun. They’re also a great leveller as it doesn’t matter how smart you are or how much faith you have or how good you are at writing, polls treat everyone equally. Matt10 Can you paste it on here and I'll give you my answer to put on the poll Please? A I never had any belief in God OR I never professed B I’m still professing and my belief in God is as strong as it ever was C I’m still professing but my belief in God is weaker than it once was D I’m still professing but I’m no longer sure if I still really believe in God E My belief in God disappeared before I quit professing F My belief in God disappeared shortly after I quit professing G My belief in God disappeared after I quit professing but it took some time H I no longer profess but my belief in God is much stronger than when I did I I no longer profess and my belief in God is not as strong as when I did J I no longer profess and my belief in God is much the same as when I did K I no longer profess and am no longer sure if I still really believe in God L I’d rather not vote in this poll
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Post by maryhig on Sept 19, 2020 10:46:36 GMT -5
Can you paste it on here and I'll give you my answer to put on the poll Please? A I never had any belief in God OR I never professed B I’m still professing and my belief in God is as strong as it ever was C I’m still professing but my belief in God is weaker than it once was D I’m still professing but I’m no longer sure if I still really believe in God E My belief in God disappeared before I quit professing F My belief in God disappeared shortly after I quit professing G My belief in God disappeared after I quit professing but it took some time H I no longer profess but my belief in God is much stronger than when I did I I no longer profess and my belief in God is not as strong as when I did J I no longer profess and my belief in God is much the same as when I did K I no longer profess and am no longer sure if I still really believe in God L I’d rather not vote in this poll Thank you, but I'm none of those. I'm I've never professed (as I've never been a 2x2) but I strongly believe in God.
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Post by joanna on Sept 19, 2020 23:15:57 GMT -5
@matt10 Matthew 5:17 Jesus “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them' Jews for Jesus tell of the many times Jesus validated the OT. The non-trinitarian would acknowledge that Jesus supported the mass-murdering, violent, bumbling monster god of the OT. The trinitarian believes that Jesus and this violent god are one and the same.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 19, 2020 23:37:16 GMT -5
If you never believed in the God of the bible you should vote for the first option “ I never had any belief in God OR I never professed“. If you had a belief in the God of the bible at one point but no longer have that belief then you should choose the appropriate option further down the list. This poll only relates to the God of the bible. Matt10 Ok thanks Matt. I Was professing, I came on this board with a fragile belief in the God of the bible. But I have to consider, that this board has in recent months turned me into an atheist. Not by persuasion of atheists but by certain Christians. Christians make the best car salesmen.
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 20, 2020 1:03:34 GMT -5
Ok thanks Matt. I Was professing, I came on this board with a fragile belief in the God of the bible. But I have to consider, that this board has in recent months turned me into an atheist. Not by persuasion of atheists but by certain Christians. Christians make the best car salesmen. Or the worst! We have some here that deliberately put their Andre Crouch CDs in every car on the yard, and they’re a right bunch of crooks. My masseuse used to work for them, and she confirmed to me how bad they were. When she left, they even tried to diddle her out of her legal right to Holiday Pay. I also recall sitting opposite a rather self righteous farmer at a Convention table once, who was bragging to the guy next to him about how he put one over his insurance company, and then his tex evasion trick. I couldn’t help myself when I said, “Render unto Caesar...and then the Good and Honest ground....call yourself a Christian? You should be shamed.” You’d think that Lydia, the seller of purple had sold him his face!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 20, 2020 1:23:57 GMT -5
Christians make the best car salesmen. Or the worst! We have some here that deliberately put their Andre Crouch CDs in every car on the yard, and they’re a right bunch of crooks. My masseuse used to work for them, and she confirmed to me how bad they were. When she left, they even tried to diddle her out of her legal right to Holiday Pay. I also recall sitting opposite a rather self righteous farmer at a Convention table once, who was bragging to the guy next to him about how he put one over his insurance company, and then his tex evasion trick. I couldn’t help myself when I said, “Render unto Caesar...and then the Good and Honest ground....call yourself a Christian? You should be shamed.” You’d think that Lydia, the seller of purple had sole him his face! I wonder if the professing farmer was the same one who had a heap of concrete blocks in the bottom of his milk vat? Fine upstanding christians who would rail against the sins of the world every sunday. Or was he the one that, used to go to those wife swapping parties some of the friendly farmers had around our province? I'm glad I grew up in town. At least I know who my dad is.(was)
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 20, 2020 2:35:53 GMT -5
Or the worst! We have some here that deliberately put their Andre Crouch CDs in every car on the yard, and they’re a right bunch of crooks. My masseuse used to work for them, and she confirmed to me how bad they were. When she left, they even tried to diddle her out of her legal right to Holiday Pay. I also recall sitting opposite a rather self righteous farmer at a Convention table once, who was bragging to the guy next to him about how he put one over his insurance company, and then his tex evasion trick. I couldn’t help myself when I said, “Render unto Caesar...and then the Good and Honest ground....call yourself a Christian? You should be shamed.” You’d think that Lydia, the seller of purple had sole him his face! I wonder if the professing farmer was the same one who had a heap of concrete blocks in the bottom of his milk vat? Fine upstanding christians who would rail against the sins of the world every sunday. Or was he the one that, used to go to those wife swapping parties some of the friendly farmers had around our province? I'm glad I grew up in town. At least I know who my dad is.(was) Nah, he was from Potato growing country up north. I have no idea as to his status, or whereabouts now. I had heard the rumours on Wife Swapping Parties, but I never bothered to find out. Similarly for a worker who knew when to visit the wives when their husbands were at work! Hopefully the forces of nature have quelled those urges now!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 20, 2020 3:08:26 GMT -5
Christians make the best car salesmen. Or the worst! We have some here that deliberately put their Andre Crouch CDs in every car on the yard, and they’re a right bunch of crooks. My masseuse used to work for them, and she confirmed to me how bad they were. When she left, they even tried to diddle her out of her legal right to Holiday Pay. I also recall sitting opposite a rather self righteous farmer at a Convention table once, who was bragging to the guy next to him about how he put one over his insurance company, and then his tex evasion trick. I couldn’t help myself when I said, “Render unto Caesar...and then the Good and Honest ground....call yourself a Christian? You should be shamed.” You’d think that Lydia, the seller of purple had sole him his face! I've gotten myself in trouble a number of times for blurting such admonishing remarks. It's hard to apologize, though, when the reaction is so obviously such a dead hit.
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Post by blacksheep on Sept 20, 2020 12:11:21 GMT -5
A couple of my professing relatives were the occasional used firearm sellers. What they would do, is one brother was the owner of said firearm, and the other brother was a supposed interested shopper. When a perspective buyer arrived to inspect the offered firearm, the decoy brother would arrive directly after, and proclaim "If that gentleman doesn't want that deal, I will surely take it." This was done to not only encourage the transaction, but to prevent any quibbling over the price. After the patsy left with his purchase, there would be the congratulatory back slapping and laughs. Dishonest? Maybe not, but getting close...
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Post by fixit on Sept 20, 2020 16:25:01 GMT -5
A couple of my professing relatives were the occasional used firearm sellers. What they would do, is one brother was the owner of said firearm, and the other brother was a supposed interested shopper. When a perspective buyer arrived to inspect the offered firearm, the decoy brother would arrive directly after, and proclaim "If that gentleman doesn't want that deal, I will surely take it." This was done to not only encourage the transaction, but to prevent any quibbling over the price. After the patsy left with his purchase, there would be the congratulatory back slapping and laughs. Dishonest? Maybe not, but getting close... Absolutely dishonest. If not illegal, it should be.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 20, 2020 17:06:55 GMT -5
A couple of my professing relatives were the occasional used firearm sellers. What they would do, is one brother was the owner of said firearm, and the other brother was a supposed interested shopper. When a perspective buyer arrived to inspect the offered firearm, the decoy brother would arrive directly after, and proclaim "If that gentleman doesn't want that deal, I will surely take it." This was done to not only encourage the transaction, but to prevent any quibbling over the price. After the patsy left with his purchase, there would be the congratulatory back slapping and laughs. Dishonest? Maybe not, but getting close... No wonder used car salesmen are called cheats.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 20, 2020 17:07:35 GMT -5
A couple of my professing relatives were the occasional used firearm sellers. What they would do, is one brother was the owner of said firearm, and the other brother was a supposed interested shopper. When a perspective buyer arrived to inspect the offered firearm, the decoy brother would arrive directly after, and proclaim "If that gentleman doesn't want that deal, I will surely take it." This was done to not only encourage the transaction, but to prevent any quibbling over the price. After the patsy left with his purchase, there would be the congratulatory back slapping and laughs. Dishonest? Maybe not, but getting close... Absolutely dishonest. If not illegal, it should be. Dishonest, and happy to brag about it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2020 17:47:27 GMT -5
A I never had any belief in God OR I never professed B I’m still professing and my belief in God is as strong as it ever was C I’m still professing but my belief in God is weaker than it once was D I’m still professing but I’m no longer sure if I still really believe in God E My belief in God disappeared before I quit professing F My belief in God disappeared shortly after I quit professing G My belief in God disappeared after I quit professing but it took some time H I no longer profess but my belief in God is much stronger than when I did I I no longer profess and my belief in God is not as strong as when I did J I no longer profess and my belief in God is much the same as when I did K I no longer profess and am no longer sure if I still really believe in God L I’d rather not vote in this poll Thank you, but I'm none of those. I'm I've never professed (as I've never been a 2x2) but I strongly believe in God. If you never professed then I think you would fall into Option A. I rather crudely lumped lifetime non believers and non professors in together as the purpose of the poll was to look at changes in the beliefs of those who had professed at some point in their life and therefore people who never had any beliefs or who never professed would be outside the scope of this. I think it’s fair to say that the 2x2 church would traditionally have viewed non believers and non professors as being headed for the same eternal destination so it’s probably not completely illogical to lump them both together here. Mind you, I think it’s also fair to say that under traditional 2x2 doctrine, people voting for any option other than Option B (and possibly Option L) would also be joining them on the road. Matt10
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Post by Dan on Sept 21, 2020 0:33:03 GMT -5
Thank you, but I'm none of those. I'm I've never professed (as I've never been a 2x2) but I strongly believe in God. If you never professed then I think you would fall into Option A. I rather crudely lumped lifetime non believers and non professors in together as the purpose of the poll was to look at changes in the beliefs of those who had professed at some point in their life and therefore people who never had any beliefs or who never professed would be outside the scope of this. I think it’s fair to say that the 2x2 church would traditionally have viewed non believers and non professors as being headed for the same eternal destination so it’s probably not completely illogical to lump them both together here. Mind you, I think it’s also fair to say that under traditional 2x2 doctrine, people voting for any option other than Option B (and possibly Option L) would also be joining them on the road. Matt10
I went with option B but considered option H... To me though, the word 'profess' just means that a person professes Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior, so it is not exclusive to the 2x2's. Most churches have alter calls and ask people to come forward who've decided to make their decision for Christ (test the mtg). So option H didn't seem to be applicable since I've never stopped professing/confessing my belief. Professing is just affirming one's faith, and I never stopped doing that because I left the meetings.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 21, 2020 1:32:44 GMT -5
If you never professed then I think you would fall into Option A. I rather crudely lumped lifetime non believers and non professors in together as the purpose of the poll was to look at changes in the beliefs of those who had professed at some point in their life and therefore people who never had any beliefs or who never professed would be outside the scope of this. I think it’s fair to say that the 2x2 church would traditionally have viewed non believers and non professors as being headed for the same eternal destination so it’s probably not completely illogical to lump them both together here. Mind you, I think it’s also fair to say that under traditional 2x2 doctrine, people voting for any option other than Option B (and possibly Option L) would also be joining them on the road. Matt10
I went with option B but considered option H... To me though, the word 'profess' just means that a person professes Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior, so it is not exclusive to the 2x2's. Most churches have alter calls and ask people to come forward who've decided to make their decision for Christ (test the mtg). So option H didn't seem to be applicable since I've never stopped professing/confessing my belief. Professing is just affirming one's faith, and I never stopped doing that because I left the meetings.
Right choice.
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Post by Grant on Sept 21, 2020 2:13:41 GMT -5
If you never professed then I think you would fall into Option A. I rather crudely lumped lifetime non believers and non professors in together as the purpose of the poll was to look at changes in the beliefs of those who had professed at some point in their life and therefore people who never had any beliefs or who never professed would be outside the scope of this. I think it’s fair to say that the 2x2 church would traditionally have viewed non believers and non professors as being headed for the same eternal destination so it’s probably not completely illogical to lump them both together here. Mind you, I think it’s also fair to say that under traditional 2x2 doctrine, people voting for any option other than Option B (and possibly Option L) would also be joining them on the road. Matt10
I went with option B but considered option H... To me though, the word 'profess' just means that a person professes Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior, so it is not exclusive to the 2x2's. Most churches have alter calls and ask people to come forward who've decided to make their decision for Christ (test the mtg). So option H didn't seem to be applicable since I've never stopped professing/confessing my belief. Professing is just affirming one's faith, and I never stopped doing that because I left the meetings.
It says 2x2 profession not professing in other churches. So B refers to someone having professed in meetings, not another church. If you're still attending meeting then B it is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 12:11:26 GMT -5
If you never professed then I think you would fall into Option A. I rather crudely lumped lifetime non believers and non professors in together as the purpose of the poll was to look at changes in the beliefs of those who had professed at some point in their life and therefore people who never had any beliefs or who never professed would be outside the scope of this. I think it’s fair to say that the 2x2 church would traditionally have viewed non believers and non professors as being headed for the same eternal destination so it’s probably not completely illogical to lump them both together here. Mind you, I think it’s also fair to say that under traditional 2x2 doctrine, people voting for any option other than Option B (and possibly Option L) would also be joining them on the road. Matt10
I went with option B but considered option H... To me though, the word 'profess' just means that a person professes Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior, so it is not exclusive to the 2x2's. Most churches have alter calls and ask people to come forward who've decided to make their decision for Christ (test the mtg). So option H didn't seem to be applicable since I've never stopped professing/confessing my belief. Professing is just affirming one's faith, and I never stopped doing that because I left the meetings.
I have to confess that I don’t know whether you still go to meetings or not but if you have left the meetings then obviously you shouldn’t be choosing a statement which begins with the phrase ‘I’m still professing” as the most appropriate option. It is clear from the thread title that for the purposes of this poll ‘professing’ means professing in the context of the 2x2 church (irrespective of how you choose to interpret it) and anyone with a link to the 2x2 church knows what “professing“ means in that context. If you are no longer going to meetings (as you seem to be indicating) then I’m afraid it is Option H for you rather than Option B. Matt10
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on Sept 21, 2020 20:12:51 GMT -5
You do mean the followers of the Irvine doctrine as those professing,don't you? But the term is used by so many,profession of faith you will the most used. Was exciting in Moscow people would say we profess our faith. Or we profess to our christianity, Like friends the Quakers lay claim to that since well before Irvine.For my 34 years I was knowingly knew I was lying every time I said we were a nameless church,wern't we conned,Friends =Quakers====Professing=christians worldwide... PS that includes the near 100000 martyred because they profess their christianity Mazgpie
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Post by chuck on Sept 23, 2020 7:49:49 GMT -5
All references to God are to the God of the bible. I’d encourage everyone to vote including those who read but do not normally post. Few problems with this poll, what on earth does a profession have to do with a belief, you act out a belief so you can tick whatever box you think fit you but does not necessarily mean it's true. And if you aksed a hundred people what there image of the God of the bible is how many different answers would you get?. Just the same as if you ask people do they believe in God. Only a fool would boldy say they do. What is your image of the God in the bible?. And how does it differ from the Hebrew image?.
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Post by chuck on Sept 23, 2020 8:11:53 GMT -5
I neither judge, nor denounce, and nor do I denounce those in non-Christian religions. I have too much experience in dealing with Catholic Priests and Buddhists in Nepal, Salvation Army here helping the Alcoholics etc, and simply feel that the key factor is what is in the heart. God is a label, and not everyone uses the same label, to describe the feeling of a greater presence than Man himself. Great to see your comments and a view that doesn't push God as some existent thing that interjects randomly from heaven up there somewhere. Every tribe tongue and race, Im unsure who that excludes but apparently to the religious zealots that means self proclaimed Christians, and to the absolute religious nutjobs that means a small exclusive sect of the self proclaimed Christians. Some rabbi's say that Yod-Heh-Vav-Heh is the sound of breathing, everyone breathing is saying the name of God, again who does that exclude?.
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