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Post by iam on Jul 18, 2020 13:22:38 GMT -5
You should show them to your lying mate Phil. He may learn something. ** Do you have any above Top Secret clearance or ANY clearance? Or you just like talking both sides of your mouth and calling those in the KNOW liars. Where is YOUR top secret clearance or any clearance, Nathan? Put your money where your mouth is.
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Post by Lee on Jul 18, 2020 13:45:38 GMT -5
All humanity has to judge and make decisions based on the outward appearance of things and the inner or actual reality of things. That the duality exists in the first place says we exist in respect to something greater than us. 2x2isms history is one of emphasizing external symbol over inward stasis.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 14:56:02 GMT -5
Was Openingact34 speaking of you, as a 2x2 elder here?
And in their golden years, as they strive to finish true, the one tiny shred of comfort that they ask, is to know that it was all worth it. That this was the One Way. That the suffering was worth it. That there was no choice. For all the multitudes who chose a path other than the straitest and narrowest will be burning endlessly in the hellfire of God's unquenchable wrath. But the suffering here has laid up treasure in Heaven. And along comes the modern, "open-minded", non-exclusive professing people. Tares among the wheat to be sure, but they slither in. And oh how masterful these false ones can play peek-a-boo with the worldliness in their lives. Now it's chic styled short hair, now it looks like long hair in a bun. "Are the workers coming?...quick" It's like a Vegas magic show with the forbidden things disappearing in a puff of smoke. So cunning that some even find the office of elder.
No Nathan. People like you crept in. Exclusive to all outside of your church. Jesus was inclusive to anyone wanting to be his friend. You exclude. Exclusive. And now that has spread throughout the whole church worldwide. The early pioneer workers I knew warned against that. *** I believe you get inclusive and exclusive all mix up because of your non-exclusive belief. Jesus was very EXCLUSIVE no man come to God the Father but through me! My WAY and TRUTH and no one else that is very EXCLUSIVE not Inclusive.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 15:10:17 GMT -5
** Do you have any above Top Secret clearance or ANY clearance? Or you just like talking both sides of your mouth and calling those in the KNOW liars. Where is YOUR top secret clearance or any clearance, Nathan? Put your money where your mouth is. *** MY ABOVE top clearance knowledge comes from listening to the whistle blowers like Edward Snowden. There are many whistle blowers with above top secret out there sharing these secrets. You must know where these people are sharing these information and listen what they have to say...believe them or NOT is up to you.
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Post by Annan on Jul 18, 2020 15:12:59 GMT -5
Where is YOUR top secret clearance or any clearance, Nathan? Put your money where your mouth is. *** MY ABOVE top clearance knowledge comes from listening to the whistle blowers like Edward Snowden. There are many whistle blowers with above top secret out there sharing these secrets. You must know where these people are sharing these information and listen what they have to say...believe them or NOT is up to you. Does Edward Snowden know about Jesus living in Venus?
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Post by fixit on Jul 18, 2020 15:25:58 GMT -5
Was Openingact34 speaking of you, as a 2x2 elder here?
And in their golden years, as they strive to finish true, the one tiny shred of comfort that they ask, is to know that it was all worth it. That this was the One Way. That the suffering was worth it. That there was no choice. For all the multitudes who chose a path other than the straitest and narrowest will be burning endlessly in the hellfire of God's unquenchable wrath. But the suffering here has laid up treasure in Heaven. And along comes the modern, "open-minded", non-exclusive professing people. Tares among the wheat to be sure, but they slither in. And oh how masterful these false ones can play peek-a-boo with the worldliness in their lives. Now it's chic styled short hair, now it looks like long hair in a bun. "Are the workers coming?...quick" It's like a Vegas magic show with the forbidden things disappearing in a puff of smoke. So cunning that some even find the office of elder.
You discredit people for being closed minded and now you're discrediting them for being open minded. How about some consistency. Nathan is both: 1. Open-minded to conspiracy theories and science fiction and the lies of charlatans. 2. Closed-minded to common sense and evidence-based science.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 15:32:51 GMT -5
*** MY ABOVE top clearance knowledge comes from listening to the whistle blowers like Edward Snowden. There are many whistle blowers with above top secret out there sharing these secrets. You must know where these people are sharing these information and listen what they have to say...believe them or NOT is up to you. Does Edward Snowden know about Jesus living in Venus?*** He might have, he KNOWS a lot of ABOVE top secret and he shared some of it on the NSA and CIA. The U.S. intelligence KNOW Jesus and the Venusians are from interior planet of Venus since 1940s. Surely, the Russians, Chinese, English, Israel, France gov't KNOW it too! They have spies inside the U.S. the intelligence.
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Post by fixit on Jul 18, 2020 15:37:44 GMT -5
Jesus was very EXCLUSIVE no man come to God the Father but through me! Are you saying that still applies today? No man comes to God the Father but through Jesus?
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 15:39:37 GMT -5
You discredit people for being closed minded and now you're discrediting them for being open minded. How about some consistency. Nathan is both: 1. Open-minded to conspiracy theories and science fiction and the lies of charlatans. 2. Closed-minded to common sense and evidence-based science. ** Did you know MANY of Science fiction in STAR TREK series in 1960s have become reality of today! Flip phone, 75 inches TV screen, teleportation/beam me up Scotty! Star Trek enterprise space ship. Warp speed! Laser weapons and more. Don't make fun of Science fiction! They are trying to prepare us for what to come in the future.
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Post by Annan on Jul 18, 2020 15:46:53 GMT -5
Nathan is both: 1. Open-minded to conspiracy theories and science fiction and the lies of charlatans. 2. Closed-minded to common sense and evidence-based science. ** Did you know MANY of Science fiction in STAR TREK series in 1960s have become reality of today! Flip phone, 75 inches TV screen, teleportation/beam me up Scotty! Star Trek enterprise space ship. Warp speed! Laser weapons and more. Don't make fun of Science fiction! They are trying to prepare for what to come in the future. Teleportation? Seriously? I must have missed that one.
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Post by Annan on Jul 18, 2020 15:55:45 GMT -5
Where is YOUR top secret clearance or any clearance, Nathan? Put your money where your mouth is. *** MY ABOVE top clearance knowledge comes from listening to the whistle blowers like Edward Snowden. There are many whistle blowers with above top secret out there sharing these secrets. You must know where these people are sharing these information and listen what they have to say...believe them or NOT is up to you. Simply because you chose to believe what you cannot prove doesn't make it true. And by the same token, my choosing not to believe doesn't make it false. The difference is that I have have science on my side. You have nothing but hearsay from dubious sources. And how does citing Edward Snowden as a whistle blower prove anything? We all know what he did. Some of us support him and some do not. He has nothing to do with your ridiculous claims of Venus and Jesus, Frank Stanger-than-strange, and Val Thorazine.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 18, 2020 16:17:16 GMT -5
Was Openingact34 speaking of you, as a 2x2 elder here?
And in their golden years, as they strive to finish true, the one tiny shred of comfort that they ask, is to know that it was all worth it. That this was the One Way. That the suffering was worth it. That there was no choice. For all the multitudes who chose a path other than the straitest and narrowest will be burning endlessly in the hellfire of God's unquenchable wrath. But the suffering here has laid up treasure in Heaven. And along comes the modern, "open-minded", non-exclusive professing people. Tares among the wheat to be sure, but they slither in. And oh how masterful these false ones can play peek-a-boo with the worldliness in their lives. Now it's chic styled short hair, now it looks like long hair in a bun. "Are the workers coming?...quick" It's like a Vegas magic show with the forbidden things disappearing in a puff of smoke. So cunning that some even find the office of elder.
No Nathan. People like you crept in. Exclusive to all outside of your church. Jesus was inclusive to anyone wanting to be his friend. You exclude. Exclusive. And now that has spread throughout the whole church worldwide. The early pioneer workers I knew warned against that. You are quite right on this point.
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Post by Grant on Jul 18, 2020 16:35:15 GMT -5
No Nathan. People like you crept in. Exclusive to all outside of your church. Jesus was inclusive to anyone wanting to be his friend. You exclude. Exclusive. And now that has spread throughout the whole church worldwide. The early pioneer workers I knew warned against that. *** I believe you get inclusive and exclusive all mix up because of your non-exclusive belief. Jesus was very EXCLUSIVE no man come to God the Father but through me! My WAT and TRUTH and no one else that is very EXCLUSIVE not Inclusive. Jesus accepted those who come through him. You don't, you only accept those who come through the workers. Jesus was inclusive, you are exclusive to the workers not Jesus who was inclusive.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 16:56:58 GMT -5
Jesus was very EXCLUSIVE no man come to God the Father but through me! Are you saying that still applies today? No man comes to God the Father but through Jesus? ** Yes. It's still TRUE today! Jesus SAVES. When Jesus was here he said that but he KNEW His time was very short on earth and billions of souls to SAVE for the next 2000 years... Therefore, Jesus took 82 of his disciples and trained them as apostles, preachers and teachers of the gospel and pastors of churches of God. The apostles to teach their converts to become teachers of the gospel and as Living Witnesses for Christ to all nations= The great Commission in Matt. 28 to the time of Jesus returns to establish His ETERNAL kingdom on earth as KING of kings on earth and the Universe.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 17:38:35 GMT -5
** Did you know MANY of Science fiction in STAR TREK series in 1960s have become reality of today! Flip phone, 75 inches TV screen, teleportation/beam me up Scotty! Star Trek enterprise space ship. Warp speed! Laser weapons and more. Don't make fun of Science fiction! They are trying to prepare for what to come in the future. Teleportation? Seriously? I must have missed that one. *** Yep! They had the teleportation technology in 1970s and that how the Secret Space program start colonized the Mars planet. See I told you folks THEY start to prepare the humans minds ready for the future back in 1960s. Science fiction now has become science FACT. THEY knew about these things back in 1940's the Nazi Germany were way ahead of the ALLIED in many Technologies The U.S. Secret Space program has the technologies that is 1000 PLUS years in advance than the current technology of what we have today.
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Post by Annan on Jul 18, 2020 17:54:05 GMT -5
Teleportation? Seriously? I must have missed that one. *** Yep! They had the teleportation technology in 1970s and that how the Secret Space program start colonized the Mars planet. See I told you folks THEY start to prepare the humans minds ready for the future back in 1960S. Science fiction now has become science FACT. THEY knew about these things back in 1940's the Nazi Germany were way ahead of the ALLIED in many Technologies The U.S. Secret Space program has the technologies that is 1000 PLUS years in advance than the current technology of what we have today. I have a headache.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 17:58:33 GMT -5
*** I believe you get inclusive and exclusive all mix up because of your non-exclusive belief. Jesus was very EXCLUSIVE no man come to God the Father but through me! My WAT and TRUTH and no one else that is very EXCLUSIVE not Inclusive. Jesus accepted those who come through him. You don't, you only accept those who come through the workers. Jesus was inclusive, you are exclusive to the workers not Jesus who was inclusive. ** you didn't get it correctly either. Jesus was and is very exclusive! Come to the Father through me and my apostles whom I sent and the Holy Spirit sent after my departure back to heaven/Venus planet. All nations, races, religions are to come to Christ as their Savior and abide under His appointed apostles New Test. Ministry and fellowship/Eucharists in remembersce of Jesus Christ, God the Father and Holy Spirit.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 18:02:39 GMT -5
*** Yep! They had the teleportation technology in 1970s and that how the Secret Space program start colonized the Mars planet. See I told you folks THEY start to prepare the humans minds ready for the future back in 1960S. Science fiction now has become science FACT. THEY knew about these things back in 1940's the Nazi Germany were way ahead of the ALLIED in many Technologies The U.S. Secret Space program has the technologies that is 1000 PLUS years in advance than the current technology of what we have today. I have a headache. *** You are way behind the time, you have so much to learn and catching up to do.
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Post by Grant on Jul 18, 2020 18:29:15 GMT -5
Jesus accepted those who come through him. You don't, you only accept those who come through the workers. Jesus was inclusive, you are exclusive to the workers not Jesus who was inclusive. ** you didn't get it correctly either. Jesus was and is very exclusive! Come to the Father through me and my apostles whom I sent and the Holy Spirit sent after my departure back to heaven/Venus planet. All nations, races, religions are to come to Christ as their Savior and abide under His appointed apostles New Test. Ministry and fellowship/Eucharists in remembersce of Jesus Christ, God the Father and Holy Spirit. You're way off Nathan. Jesus said come to the Father through him. He was the one who gave his life for us. Jesus alone is the way the truth and life. Read John 3 v 16. There is also nothing about heaven being inside venus either but Uranus was used plenty of times tho. But then God dwells in the 3rd heaven and venus ain't no 3rd heaven but is within our galaxy.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 19:08:10 GMT -5
** you didn't get it correctly either. Jesus was and is very exclusive! Come to the Father through me and my apostles whom I sent and the Holy Spirit sent after my departure back to heaven/Venus planet. All nations, races, religions are to come to Christ as their Savior and abide under His appointed apostles New Test. Ministry and fellowship/Eucharists in remembersce of Jesus Christ, God the Father and Holy Spirit. You're way off Nathan. Jesus said come to the Father through him. He was the one who gave his life for us. Jesus alone is the way the truth and life. Read John 3 v 16. There is also nothing about heaven being inside venus either but Uranus was used plenty of times tho. But then God dwells in the 3rd heaven and venus ain't no 3rd heaven but is within our galaxy. *** Jesus has NOT been here for 2000 yrs, HOW are they/people going to COME to Him while he is inside of Venus/heaven?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 19:16:53 GMT -5
You're way off Nathan. Jesus said come to the Father through him. He was the one who gave his life for us. Jesus alone is the way the truth and life. Read John 3 v 16. There is also nothing about heaven being inside venus either but Uranus was used plenty of times tho. But then God dwells in the 3rd heaven and venus ain't no 3rd heaven but is within our galaxy. *** Jesus has NOT been here for 2000 yrs, HOW are they/people going to COME to Him while he is inside of Venus/heaven? What an extremely dumb thing to say based on what professing in your church/ what preachers preach, means.I don’t have any memory of your preachers preaching Jesus was inside or on any planet. My understanding was Christianity was a spiritual thing. Having A spiritual dimension to one’s life. And people either believe in that spiritual dimension or don’t ...as is clear on this board.
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Post by Grant on Jul 18, 2020 19:31:46 GMT -5
Have you not heard of the Holy Spirit, Nathan?
The exclusivity you are preaching is that the workers replace Jesus. You are exclusive to the workers, not exclusive to Jesus. It's belief in Jesus that saves not belief in the workers.
Your beliefs are sounding more Catholic every day. Seems as if you don't believe much that's in the Bible either.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 20:40:47 GMT -5
Nathan pushes himself into his own corner continually. Has it not been said, people who continually speak untruths get tangled in their own web because they can’t remember what they said.... and hence statements contradict themselves. An honest and simple testimony is authentic and flows from the heart IMO.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 22:21:34 GMT -5
Have you not heard of the Holy Spirit, Nathan? The exclusivity you are preaching is that the workers replace Jesus. You are exclusive to the workers, not exclusive to Jesus. It's belief in Jesus that saves not belief in the workers. Your beliefs are sounding more Catholic every day. Seems as if you don't believe much that's in the Bible either. Yes, the Holy Spirit is pointing people to the apostles/workers of Christ in EVERY generation, whom the Holy Spirit appointed and chosen them and they teach the people about Jesus Christ. It is you who don't know or understand your Bible.
Read Acts 2... The Holy Spirit demonstrate His might power in Acts 2 with believers speaking/preaching in languages that they have NEVER learned before to the great Multitude and 3000 and 5000 make their choice to serve God and Christ and the new converts learn the teachings of Christ from the apostles.
Acts 2:41-42 1 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer... Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 22:24:55 GMT -5
Have you not heard of the Holy Spirit, Nathan? The exclusivity you are preaching is that the workers replace Jesus. You are exclusive to the workers, not exclusive to Jesus. It's belief in Jesus that saves not belief in the workers. Your beliefs are sounding more Catholic every day. Seems as if you don't believe much that's in the Bible either. Did you KNOW the RCC/the early church fathers and the Vaudois were ONE TRUE Church for 3 centuries but by the 4th century they split apart and went two separate ways. Therefore, they had many similar belief in doctrine such as the Godhead, The Trinity, Jesus is God...
A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.
A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120 A.D. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30]
The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120)
1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.
2. We believe that there is One Godhead, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible.
4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.
6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us.
7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification.
8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment.
9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the Damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.
10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses.
11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind.
12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them.
13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.
14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12] Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal damnation. The invoking and worshiping of dead saints is idolatry.
The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 22:36:00 GMT -5
Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)
1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto.
2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH.
3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation.
4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity.
5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power.
6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life.
7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.
~~ The 2x2 early days workers have very similar to the Vaudois/Waldenses belief on the Godhead and the early church fathers....
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Post by nathan on Jul 18, 2020 22:53:38 GMT -5
Most of the apostles in the second century had a clear understanding of the Godhead/Triune God. The 1st century early church fathers coined the word TRINITY to describe the Godhead.
Clement of Alexandrea (Died about A.D. 215) taught the Triune God saying, "The Word itself, that is, the Son of God, being by equality of substance, one with the Father, is and Uncreated. And I understand else nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third, is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made."
Tertullian (Died about A.D. 230) Also taught Triune God saying, "I ask you how it is possible that a Being who is merely and absolutely One in singular, to speak in plural phrase, saying, "Let US make man in OUR own image, and after Our likeness" ... it was because He already had His Son close at His side, as a Second Person, His own Word, and a third Person also, the Spirit in the Word, that He purposely adopted the plural phrase.
Origin (A.D. 185-254) The most learned man of the ancient church. A great traveler; and a voluminous writer, employing at times as many as twenty copyists. He died in Palestine, where he died as a result of imprisonment and torture under Deices Emperor. Also taught Triune God saying, "For who else was He which is to come than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; So also, since the Father is called Omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called Omnipotent. From all, which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all by the naming of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "
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Post by fixit on Jul 19, 2020 1:36:11 GMT -5
*** Jesus has NOT been here for 2000 yrs, HOW are they/people going to COME to Him while he is inside of Venus/heaven? What an extremely dumb thing to say based on what professing in your church/ what preachers preach, means.I don’t have any memory of your preachers preaching Jesus was inside or on any planet. My understanding was Christianity was a spiritual thing. Having A spiritual dimension to one’s life. And people either believe in that spiritual dimension or don’t ...as is clear on this board. Well said Olea. When you understand it this way there is no clash with science, no apologetics needed, no theology to defend and no trail of destruction.
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