Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 10:43:07 GMT -5
Like in Trump's Covid fiasco, for example. Trumps fiasco? I can hear him shaming you, "You are fake news". I'm not laying the blame at Trump's feet, but I can't help but wonder whether Obama would've listened to his advisors' expert opinion sooner. We'll never know, but when a reporter asks what metrics Trump is using to reopen the economy and he points to his head and says "these metrics", it does give a person pause.
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Post by Lee on May 17, 2020 11:05:53 GMT -5
From miscounting the actual causes of death to the level of attention given it, 90 percent of the pandemic is fake news. I think Trump believes this too but he was elected to a hostile press and a hostile prior president. If three people died of corona hed have been hung. So why fight the press and the washington swamp when you can put the ball back in their court? And so he did, and he hired experts to interpret the viral threat and determine the course.
A few facts to be reminded of with respect to the pandemic:
Wuhan is an overcrowded city favorable to viral infections.
China punished its scientific communities attempt to understand and remediate the virus.
China hosted a news years celebration to bless the pandemic.
China blessed the world with the pandemic by exporting it. Many fled to Italy because Italy hosts large numbers of chinese workers. After Italy blew up with deaths the rest of the world reacted.
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Here's the reality of this pandemic. Never in history have we quarantined the healthy. By this criteria we know like never before we are plumbing the depths of stupidity and we are being victimized, perhaps even exterminated... by someone, something that hates us.
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Post by Lee on May 17, 2020 11:23:45 GMT -5
It tends to be our position that God should wait on us. Perhaps its more appropriate he should present to us as a brat? After Jonah begrudgingly "saved" Ninevah, God chopped the shade plant down just to illustrate Jonah's indifference and self centeredness. Not to mention the evil of destroying something which is being useful without hurting anyone. The same cannot be so easily said for the 2x2 church. Registered as a charity (supposedly an organization to help the poor), yet helping nobody. One has only to skim through Wings of Truth to realize that the "not hurting anyone" claim doesn't stand. And that's just in the case of the most obvious and greatest evil. Does this mean the 2x2 is intrinsically evil or does it mean that evil saddles up to good wherever good goes in this world? I take the latter position, not withstanding the lies of the 2x2 respecting their origin and the faults within their pulpit christology.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 14:27:43 GMT -5
Not to mention the evil of destroying something which is being useful without hurting anyone. The same cannot be so easily said for the 2x2 church. Registered as a charity (supposedly an organization to help the poor), yet helping nobody. One has only to skim through Wings of Truth to realize that the "not hurting anyone" claim doesn't stand. And that's just in the case of the most obvious and greatest evil. Does this mean the 2x2 is intrinsically evil or does it mean that evil saddles up to good wherever good goes in this world? I take the latter position, not withstanding the lies of the 2x2 respecting their origin and the faults within their pulpit christology. I see any group as a collection of shared ideas. I see evil, at it's core, as a state of imbalance in which the harm bestowed in someone is greater than any possible benefit (which I would call "needless"). People join groups for security (since "strength" in numbers implies individual weakness). This poses a huge problem, namely - it is impossible for an individual's ideas and values to perfectly align with those of the group. - the strength/cohesiveness of the group is greatest when the % values shared are the greatest. Therefore, a person must sacrifice themselves to be part of a group. The extent to which they wish for a strong group (which really is saying the extent to which they are individually weak and insecure) is the extent to which they will sacrifice their values for the cohesiveness of the group. Now, say a very common human value is that children, being innocent, are to not be victimized by an oppressor. To follow this is to do no harm, to violate this is to harm. (To build a society with adults which cooperate and have basic trust, this must needs be). Basic universal human values have a "weakness" (if you can call it that): they don't help in keeping groups strong. Unique values do - they give the rationale for the groups in the first place. Say a unique value is that certain people in the group are ordained by God to have the world's most important position - comprising the ministry without a home. Say another value is a high emphasis on where worship gatherings take place - inside the home. If a group adopted these with enthusiasm, it would make a strong group! So, within the group, an act which produces evil occurs: a child is molested by either a meeting elder, or worker. Two different values conflict - the universal value of child protection, and the value of honoring and respecting someone who God himself has elevated. What to do? Acting on the unique value keeps the group intact. So then, covering abuse and marginalizing the victims increases evil, while protecting the group. If the individuals in the group were stronger (aka group weaker), the decision would be no decision at all, based on relative amounts of harm in each route. So, long way of saying that the strength of the group and the bad ideas allows evil to persist. Individuals will always do evil acts. The collective has to choose how to respond.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 15:10:55 GMT -5
Why do people turn their back on God?
That is what the 2x2 saying when you stop going to meeting.
You are turning your back on God not on the 2x2 believes.
This thinking allows them to disregard any spiritual or biblical insight you might bring to a conversation.
It is evident on this board also.
I believe the 2x2's of my parents generation were much more willing to help those in need. The 2x2 has become much more self righteous in the last 20 years the same as most republicans. They all think they have gotten to where they are by their own "HARD work".
The generations in the past were much more reliant on one another rich or poor. They all realized the value of each person for their individual skills. Most "workers" today want "friends" who can provide them with houses, cars and vacations of the wealthy. They would not be caught dead driving a car 13 years old, like the worker did driving my car for a weekend 34 years ago when I was in college.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 16:52:14 GMT -5
Not sure if you are American and if so respect that is your experience over there & empathize. I understand certain cliches used to abound. But here in N.Z. I’ve never really been put down with cliches, could be due to I don’t usually engage in conversations about spirituality except with one or two ‘sometimes’.
In regards to this board, I am aware there are a few professing who don’t put ex’s down whatever their present position. It is appreciated and refreshing to say the least.
You don’t endear people to yourself or your church by putting them down.
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magpies39plus
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WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on May 17, 2020 17:33:09 GMT -5
Walter Pickering a sad old Christian assemblies Preacher(now of course is Reg'd Christian Conventions of Victoria),the poor are not our responsability that is why you pay your taxes!! Yes I have often Quoted this from a senior Preacthe that would excommunicate anyone who questioned the 2x2 theology. mmmm? . I thought one should follow Biblical teachings here not a grumpy old Irvinite!! .. www.openbible.info/topics/helping_the_poor .. www.openbible.info/topics/poor . What have you/me done to meets God's commands and teachings,wow yes we do pay tax to a secular Government,but that was used by Pickering as a cop/out? We cannot turn a blind eye can we? Magpie And we are also told to not point finger at another, but I see we should follow Biblical teachings not a grumpy old finger pointer instead. Let us start again,please. Study the 100 verses in God's Word. Either of the sites will give them too.Deviating from God's command with political,2x2isms,nit-picking,etc,cause none of those are feeding the poor needy etc does it. But if you use if to opt out of your biblical obligations,so be it,in the long term you will sadly be the looser.
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Post by Lee on May 19, 2020 10:28:24 GMT -5
Does this mean the 2x2 is intrinsically evil or does it mean that evil saddles up to good wherever good goes in this world? I take the latter position, not withstanding the lies of the 2x2 respecting their origin and the faults within their pulpit christology. I see any group as a collection of shared ideas. I see evil, at it's core, as a state of imbalance in which the harm bestowed in someone is greater than any possible benefit (which I would call "needless"). People join groups for security (since "strength" in numbers implies individual weakness). This poses a huge problem, namely - it is impossible for an individual's ideas and values to perfectly align with those of the group. - the strength/cohesiveness of the group is greatest when the % values shared are the greatest. Therefore, a person must sacrifice themselves to be part of a group. The extent to which they wish for a strong group (which really is saying the extent to which they are individually weak and insecure) is the extent to which they will sacrifice their values for the cohesiveness of the group. Now, say a very common human value is that children, being innocent, are to not be victimized by an oppressor. To follow this is to do no harm, to violate this is to harm. (To build a society with adults which cooperate and have basic trust, this must needs be). Basic universal human values have a "weakness" (if you can call it that): they don't help in keeping groups strong. Unique values do - they give the rationale for the groups in the first place. Say a unique value is that certain people in the group are ordained by God to have the world's most important position - comprising the ministry without a home. Say another value is a high emphasis on where worship gatherings take place - inside the home. If a group adopted these with enthusiasm, it would make a strong group! So, within the group, an act which produces evil occurs: a child is molested by either a meeting elder, or worker. Two different values conflict - the universal value of child protection, and the value of honoring and respecting someone who God himself has elevated. What to do? Acting on the unique value keeps the group intact. So then, covering abuse and marginalizing the victims increases evil, while protecting the group. If the individuals in the group were stronger (aka group weaker), the decision would be no decision at all, based on relative amounts of harm in each route. So, long way of saying that the strength of the group and the bad ideas allows evil to persist. Individuals will always do evil acts. The collective has to choose how to respond. That's a good analysis! One reason I like Jesus is he was a hyper-individualist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 16:55:14 GMT -5
I see any group as a collection of shared ideas. I see evil, at it's core, as a state of imbalance in which the harm bestowed in someone is greater than any possible benefit (which I would call "needless"). People join groups for security (since "strength" in numbers implies individual weakness). This poses a huge problem, namely - it is impossible for an individual's ideas and values to perfectly align with those of the group. - the strength/cohesiveness of the group is greatest when the % values shared are the greatest. Therefore, a person must sacrifice themselves to be part of a group. The extent to which they wish for a strong group (which really is saying the extent to which they are individually weak and insecure) is the extent to which they will sacrifice their values for the cohesiveness of the group. Now, say a very common human value is that children, being innocent, are to not be victimized by an oppressor. To follow this is to do no harm, to violate this is to harm. (To build a society with adults which cooperate and have basic trust, this must needs be). Basic universal human values have a "weakness" (if you can call it that): they don't help in keeping groups strong. Unique values do - they give the rationale for the groups in the first place. Say a unique value is that certain people in the group are ordained by God to have the world's most important position - comprising the ministry without a home. Say another value is a high emphasis on where worship gatherings take place - inside the home. If a group adopted these with enthusiasm, it would make a strong group! So, within the group, an act which produces evil occurs: a child is molested by either a meeting elder, or worker. Two different values conflict - the universal value of child protection, and the value of honoring and respecting someone who God himself has elevated. What to do? Acting on the unique value keeps the group intact. So then, covering abuse and marginalizing the victims increases evil, while protecting the group. If the individuals in the group were stronger (aka group weaker), the decision would be no decision at all, based on relative amounts of harm in each route. So, long way of saying that the strength of the group and the bad ideas allows evil to persist. Individuals will always do evil acts. The collective has to choose how to respond. That's a good analysis! One reason I like Jesus is he was a hyper-individualist. Indeed - "I can make these rocks into children of Abraham "
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Post by Lee on May 19, 2020 17:21:38 GMT -5
Lol
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shushy
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Post by shushy on May 19, 2020 23:21:33 GMT -5
where is God? Hes still on the throne. He warned us about what was ahead and he said ignore this at your peril. Biblical prophecy. Im sure if you read Math 24 you will recognize where we are and have been. where is God? Hes still on the throne. He warned us about what was ahead and he said ignore this at your peril. Biblical prophecy. Im sure if you read Math 24 you will recognize where we are and have been. Matt:24 states many things that are suppose to happen.
Yet, those same kinds of events have happened over & over, time and time again and actually were much worse than we see right now.
Yet, there has been no end of the world or return of Jesus.
Still, some people keep on following that carrot on a stick and believing that this time it will happen.
Why? I believe it is because they desperately want to believe that there is something or someone who is charge of what is happening.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on May 19, 2020 23:30:29 GMT -5
Math 24 is part of a trail or path of revelation in the word directing us to learn and understand and accept what is happening. Knowledge is power. In this case it brings me comfort.
I know for me with the events of the last months the subject fascinates me. Completely understand your thinking and lack of interest.
I don't appreciate your snide comment of the word being a carrot when it is actually more powerful than dividing soul and spirit and bone and marrow.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 20, 2020 0:59:14 GMT -5
Math 24 is part of a trail or path of revelation in the word directing us to learn and understand and accept what is happening. Knowledge is power. In this case it brings me comfort. I know for me with the events of the last months the subject fascinates me. Completely understand your thinking and lack of interest. I don't appreciate your snide comment of the word being a carrot when it is actually more powerful than dividing soul and spirit and bone and marrow. I reckon carrot is quite a polite term for the "word" which I would say is the worst and most dangerous bunch of lies ever foisted upon a gullible people.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2020 2:24:56 GMT -5
Math 24 is part of a trail or path of revelation in the word directing us to learn and understand and accept what is happening. Knowledge is power. In this case it brings me comfort. I know for me with the events of the last months the subject fascinates me. Completely understand your thinking and lack of interest. I don't appreciate your snide comment of the word being a carrot when it is actually more powerful than dividing soul and spirit and bone and marrow. I'm sorry that you didn't like my remark.
But that is the conclusion that I finally had to come to because it is true that "Knowledge is power."
Therefore after seeking all of the knowledge that I could find on the whole subject, I finally understood just why I had believed in such an impossible narrative.
I understood why believing such a narrative did, -as you said, -bring me comfort.
But finally knowing what I did, -I simply could no longer trade comfort for reality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 6:03:38 GMT -5
I don’t think that too many people in the UK nowadays would describe their country as one full of fervent believers. But some interesting things have happened here over the last 8 weeks.
A few snapshots. A quarter of adults in the UK have watched or listened to a religious service since the coronavirus lockdown began. The churches have had unexpectedly high numbers of people tuning into online or broadcast services. A third of young adults aged between 18 and 34 had watched or listened to an online or broadcast religious service, compared with one in five adults over the age of 55 (hope the older folk aren’t ‘slipping away’!) One in five of those who have tuned into services in the past few weeks say they have never gone to church.
So it’s interesting times.
If the coronavirus has had the effect of causing people to open their minds to consider the big questions of life then that will be one positive outcome arising from a disease that has brought hard times to many.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 20, 2020 12:54:22 GMT -5
I don’t think that too many people in the UK nowadays would describe their country as one full of fervent believers. But some interesting things have happened here over the last 8 weeks. A few snapshots. A quarter of adults in the UK have watched or listened to a religious service since the coronavirus lockdown began. The churches have had unexpectedly high numbers of people tuning into online or broadcast services. A third of young adults aged between 18 and 34 had watched or listened to an online or broadcast religious service, compared with one in five adults over the age of 55 (hope the older folk aren’t ‘slipping away’!) One in five of those who have tuned into services in the past few weeks say they have never gone to church. So it’s interesting times. If the coronavirus has had the effect of causing people to open their minds to consider the big questions of life then that will be one positive outcome arising from a disease that has brought hard times to many. The three quarters that did not watch a religious service have already considered the big questions of life. That is why they did not tune into a religious service.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 13:26:41 GMT -5
LOL
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shushy
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Post by shushy on May 20, 2020 17:17:35 GMT -5
Math 24 is part of a trail or path of revelation in the word directing us to learn and understand and accept what is happening. Knowledge is power. In this case it brings me comfort. I know for me with the events of the last months the subject fascinates me. Completely understand your thinking and lack of interest. I don't appreciate your snide comment of the word being a carrot when it is actually more powerful than dividing soul and spirit and bone and marrow. I'm sorry that you didn't like my remark.
But that is the conclusion that I finally had to come to because it is true that "Knowledge is power."
Therefore after seeking all of the knowledge that I could find on the whole subject, I finally understood just why I had believed in such an impossible narrative.
I understood why believing such a narrative did, -as you said, -bring me comfort.
But finally knowing what I did, -I simply could no longer trade comfort for reality.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on May 20, 2020 17:19:50 GMT -5
Lets just accept that my reality is different to yours.
I'm not here to fight and I don't particularly want to argue. I prefer to walk and follow peace.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2020 19:01:04 GMT -5
Lets just accept that my reality is different to yours. I'm not here to fight and I don't particularly want to argue. I prefer to walk and follow peace. Neither am not here to fight but you did complain about my remark calling it "snide" so should I not have the be able to explain why I had arrived at my conclusion?
I keep seeing people on here using the term "my reality" as if they can replace "their belief" with that term.
There is no such thing as your or my "reality."
definition of the term reality
reality
the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
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Post by xna on May 20, 2020 20:22:09 GMT -5
Q1. Why do people turn their back on God? A1. He started it Exodus 33:23
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 20, 2020 21:54:25 GMT -5
I don’t think that too many people in the UK nowadays would describe their country as one full of fervent believers. But some interesting things have happened here over the last 8 weeks. A few snapshots. A quarter of adults in the UK have watched or listened to a religious service since the coronavirus lockdown began. The churches have had unexpectedly high numbers of people tuning into online or broadcast services. A third of young adults aged between 18 and 34 had watched or listened to an online or broadcast religious service, compared with one in five adults over the age of 55 (hope the older folk aren’t ‘slipping away’!) One in five of those who have tuned into services in the past few weeks say they have never gone to church. So it’s interesting times. If the coronavirus has had the effect of causing people to open their minds to consider the big questions of life then that will be one positive outcome arising from a disease that has brought hard times to many. Actually those statistics aren't that surprising.
In fact it is usually the case that when something particularly frightening comes along people do tend to look for answers that will give them a reason for what is happening as well as giving them solace & hope.
If there is no reason forthcoming which is easy for them to grasp, -they will grasp at any explanation. In fact that is the reason humankind created so many religions & multiple gods.
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Post by xna on May 20, 2020 22:08:32 GMT -5
I don’t think that too many people in the UK nowadays would describe their country as one full of fervent believers. But some interesting things have happened here over the last 8 weeks. A few snapshots. A quarter of adults in the UK have watched or listened to a religious service since the coronavirus lockdown began. The churches have had unexpectedly high numbers of people tuning into online or broadcast services. A third of young adults aged between 18 and 34 had watched or listened to an online or broadcast religious service, compared with one in five adults over the age of 55 (hope the older folk aren’t ‘slipping away’!) One in five of those who have tuned into services in the past few weeks say they have never gone to church. So it’s interesting times. If the coronavirus has had the effect of causing people to open their minds to consider the big questions of life then that will be one positive outcome arising from a disease that has brought hard times to many. 2% of respondents saying that they believe in God today, but did not before the pandemic
Less than 1% reporting it caused them to abandon their beliefs.
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Post by ForeverFree on May 20, 2020 23:07:14 GMT -5
A drowning man will clutch at ANYTHING in hope of saving his own life.
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Post by speak on May 21, 2020 0:47:29 GMT -5
It tends to be our position that God should wait on us. Perhaps its more appropriate he should present to us as a brat? After Jonah begrudgingly "saved" Ninevah, God chopped the shade plant down just to illustrate Jonah's indifference and self centeredness. Not to mention the evil of destroying something which is being useful without hurting anyone. The same cannot be so easily said for the 2x2 church. Registered as a charity (supposedly an organization to help the poor), yet helping nobody. One has only to skim through Wings of Truth to realize that the "not hurting anyone" claim doesn't stand. And that's just in the case of the most obvious and greatest evil. Why have you posted a lie?
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shushy
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Post by shushy on May 21, 2020 1:57:54 GMT -5
Lets just accept that my reality is different to yours. I'm not here to fight and I don't particularly want to argue. I prefer to walk and follow peace. Neither am not here to fight but you did complain about my remark calling it "snide" so should I not have the be able to explain why I had arrived at my conclusion?
I keep seeing people on here using the term "my reality" as if they can replace "their belief" with that term.
There is no such thing as your or my "reality."
definition of the term reality
reality
the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
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shushy
Royal Member
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Post by shushy on May 21, 2020 1:58:13 GMT -5
Neither am not here to fight but you did complain about my remark calling it "snide" so should I not have the be able to explain why I had arrived at my conclusion?
I keep seeing people on here using the term "my reality" as if they can replace "their belief" with that term.
There is no such thing as your or my "reality."
definition of the term reality
reality
the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
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shushy
Royal Member
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Post by shushy on May 21, 2020 2:00:05 GMT -5
dmmichgood You used the word reality I responded to that. I assure you I do exist.
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