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Post by Get off of TMB on May 6, 2020 12:04:32 GMT -5
All rules have exceptions. Sometimes older workers have married young women and reared or adopted babies. Some older ones have been pretty harsh on their children. The older ones meant well but would carry their harsh discipline to an extreme. There are documented cases of abuse in such situations. Child rearing is challenging and they can get on your nerves at times. When you get older, you have less energy and can get cross over something you might blow off in your younger days. Again, I am sure some old daddies can be gentle old souls. I could see where elderly men could go from one extreme to another and again there are exceptions .
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
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Post by magpies39plus on May 8, 2020 18:53:01 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on May 8, 2020 20:15:39 GMT -5
** John Mark, Tiomothy, Luke, Silas, Titus, Apollos and many other apostles were unmarried apostles, they follow Jesus as the pattern itinerant preacher of the gospel and NOT Peter as married a apostle.
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Post by iam on May 8, 2020 21:05:35 GMT -5
** John Mark, Tiomothy, Luke, Silas, Titus, Apollos and many other apostles were unmarried apostles, they follow Jesus as the pattern itinerant preacher of the gospel and NOT Peter as married a apostle. On this rock will I build my church. Didn’t seem to matter to Jesus if Peter married.
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Post by nathan on May 8, 2020 21:47:12 GMT -5
** John Mark, Tiomothy, Luke, Silas, Titus, Apollos and many other apostles were unmarried apostles, they follow Jesus as the pattern itinerant preacher of the gospel and NOT Peter as married a apostle. On this rock will I build my church. Didn’t seem to matter to Jesus if Peter married. The gospels don't tell us if Peter's wife was alive when Jesus called him in the ministry, all we read about his mother's in law laid sick at home. So, we don't really KNOW if he was a married man when Jesus called him in the work. Married apostles/workers have their useful place in the ministry, most 2x2 workers follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher of the gospel this way they are NOT tie down, caring for cares of life.
Maybe some day, the married workers without children will continue again due to shortage of workers today! There are some great challenges for married workers, if they had children in the work.... Something for them to THINK about down the road.
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Post by iam on May 8, 2020 21:54:26 GMT -5
On this rock will I build my church. Didn’t seem to matter to Jesus if Peter married. The gospels don't tell us if Peter's wife was alive when Jesus called him in the ministry, all we read about his mother's in law laid sick at home. So, we don't really KNOW if he was a married man when Jesus called him in the work. Married apostles/workers have their useful place in the ministry, most 2x2 workers follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher of the gospel this way they are NOT tie down, caring for cares of life.
Maybe some day, the married workers without children will continue again due to shortage of workers today! There are some great challenges for married workers, if they had children in the work.... Something for them to THINK about down the road.
Jesus would have known Peter’s future. It didn’t matter.
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Post by nathan on May 8, 2020 22:07:23 GMT -5
The gospels don't tell us if Peter's wife was alive when Jesus called him in the ministry, all we read about his mother's in law laid sick at home. So, we don't really KNOW if he was a married man when Jesus called him in the work. Married apostles/workers have their useful place in the ministry, most 2x2 workers follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher of the gospel this way they are NOT tie down, caring for cares of life.
Maybe some day, the married workers without children will continue again due to shortage of workers today! There are some great challenges for married workers, if they had children in the work.... Something for them to THINK about down the road.
Jesus would have known Peter’s future. It didn’t matter. It does matter a great deal.... We know of married workers with children in the work, and it made their lives very difficult to care for their children and their children up bringing to depend on the friends for all their needs... Read Bill Carroll and his wife Marg. daughter's May testimony in the work. They could NOT take care of her, because she was ill constantly so, one of the friends raised her for them.
I talked to the son of the married workers in Hawaii the Christies life were easy for them either. I don't believe God wants to put more stress for those whom he called the work. You and I KNOW the unmarried workers have ENOUGH challenges in the work already! Why, would God put give worker MORE stress in their lives as married workers and with children.
From my own experience in the work, leave the work if workers wanted to get married. Married life would be MUCH easier, less stressful than being married workers in the work. Follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher/worker of the gospel is MUCH better, still plenty of stress to deal with. No privacy, their lives are being watched, observed by the friends constantly... fish bowl life.
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Post by iam on May 8, 2020 22:38:42 GMT -5
Jesus would have known Peter’s future. It didn’t matter. It does matter a great deal.... We know of married workers with children in the work, and it made their lives very difficult to care for their children and their children up bringing to depend on the friends for all their needs... Read Bill Carroll and his wife Marg. daughter's May testimony in the work. They could NOT take care of her, because she was ill constantly so, one of the friends raised her for them.
I talked to the son of the married workers in Hawaii the Christies life were easy for them either. I don't believe God wants to put more stress for those whom he called the work. You and I KNOW the unmarried workers have ENOUGH challenges in the work already! Why, would God put give worker MORE stress in their lives as married workers and with children.
From my own experience in the work, leave the work if workers wanted to get married. Married life would be MUCH easier, less stressful than being married workers in the work. Follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher/worker of the gospel is MUCH better, still plenty of stress to deal with. No privacy, their lives are being watched, observed by the friends constantly... fish bowl life.
Pretty sure the work is a different system than it was in those days.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 8, 2020 23:14:33 GMT -5
On this rock will I build my church. Didn’t seem to matter to Jesus if Peter married. The gospels don't tell us if Peter's wife was alive when Jesus called him in the ministry, all we read about his mother's in law laid sick at home. So, we don't really KNOW if he was a married man when Jesus called him in the work. Married apostles/workers have their useful place in the ministry, most 2x2 workers follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher of the gospel this way they are NOT tie down, caring for cares of life.
Maybe some day, the married workers without children will continue again due to shortage of workers today! There are some great challenges for married workers, if they had children in the work.... Something for them to THINK about down the road.
Paul tells us very clearly in 1 Cor 9:5 that all the apostles took their wives with them. It’s important for people to be truthful and not promote a myth when the facts are written in black and white. Jesus clearly saw it as a positive that the men he chose were married - otherwise he would have only chosen unmarried men and said quite a bit about this necessity. But he didn’t because He didn’t require it. It’s best for people to just be honest and state that the requirement for a worker to not marry is just a 2x2 doctrine - it’s not Scriptural at all. Even the Catholic Church admits openly that its requirement for its priests to remain unmarried is not Scriptural.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 0:30:42 GMT -5
The gospels don't tell us if Peter's wife was alive when Jesus called him in the ministry, all we read about his mother's in law laid sick at home. So, we don't really KNOW if he was a married man when Jesus called him in the work. Married apostles/workers have their useful place in the ministry, most 2x2 workers follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher of the gospel this way they are NOT tie down, caring for cares of life.
Maybe some day, the married workers without children will continue again due to shortage of workers today! There are some great challenges for married workers, if they had children in the work.... Something for them to THINK about down the road.
Paul tells us very clearly in 1 Cor 9:5 that all the apostles took their wives with them. It’s important for people to be truthful and not promote a myth when the facts are written in black and white. Jesus clearly saw it as a positive that the men he chose were married - otherwise he would have only chosen unmarried men and said quite a bit about this necessity. But he didn’t because He didn’t require it. It’s best for people to just be honest and state that the requirement for a worker to not marry is just a 2x2 doctrine - it’s not Scriptural at all. Even the Catholic Church admits openly that its requirement for its priests to remain unmarried is not Scriptural. that verse doesn't say ALL the apostles it says OTHER apostles which could be 1-2 for all we know.... Paul himself spoke about being single and unmarried even as HE WAS.... 1 cor 7: 7,8
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Post by nathan on May 9, 2020 0:51:21 GMT -5
It does matter a great deal.... We know of married workers with children in the work, and it made their lives very difficult to care for their children and their children up bringing to depend on the friends for all their needs... Read Bill Carroll and his wife Marg. daughter's May testimony in the work. They could NOT take care of her, because she was ill constantly so, one of the friends raised her for them.
I talked to the son of the married workers in Hawaii the Christies life were easy for them either. I don't believe God wants to put more stress for those whom he called the work. You and I KNOW the unmarried workers have ENOUGH challenges in the work already! Why, would God put give worker MORE stress in their lives as married workers and with children.
From my own experience in the work, leave the work if workers wanted to get married. Married life would be MUCH easier, less stressful than being married workers in the work. Follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher/worker of the gospel is MUCH better, still plenty of stress to deal with. No privacy, their lives are being watched, observed by the friends constantly... fish bowl life.
Pretty sure the work is a different system than it was in those days. Different system in which way? Can you give me three examples.
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Post by nathan on May 9, 2020 1:13:35 GMT -5
Paul tells us very clearly in 1 Cor 9:5 that all the apostles took their wives with them. It’s important for people to be truthful and not promote a myth when the facts are written in black and white. Jesus clearly saw it as a positive that the men he chose were married - otherwise he would have only chosen unmarried men and said quite a bit about this necessity. But he didn’t because He didn’t require it. It’s best for people to just be honest and state that the requirement for a worker to not marry is just a 2x2 doctrine - it’s not Scriptural at all. Even the Catholic Church admits openly that its requirement for its priests to remain unmarried is not Scriptural. that verse doesn't say ALL the apostles it says OTHER apostles which could be 1-2 for all we know.... Paul himself spoke about being single and unmarried even as HE WAS.... 1 cor 7: 7,8 Amen, Wally..... Why, aren't they wanting to follow Jesus as the pattern instead of Peter and a few of the other apostles. Why, would God or Jesus wants to make the married apostles life and with children in the ministry a LIVING nightmares! Those of us who had been in the work KNOWS the life of a worker is ALREADY very difficult as it is.... Can you image, take care of the wife and children in the work! WOW...
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 1:42:45 GMT -5
There is no reason why husband and wife workers could not have their own home / rent a home ...and hold their gospel mtgs & pastoral care. It appears there is plenty of donations by their church so this could be supported. Who was it that said ‘stop living in the cave’ in many a post !
It would be good to see the relinquishing of trying to live in a way they did in the Middle East over 2,000 years ago and start to think in practical terms in regards to one’s own country and culture. .At the end of the day, it is about ‘spirituality’ , not how you travel, how many companions you have, where you hold your meeting, your hair up in a bun etc etc etc. All superficial stuff really.
IMO.
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Post by iam on May 9, 2020 4:27:48 GMT -5
Pretty sure the work is a different system than it was in those days. Different system in which way? Can you give me three examples.
Jesus did not force his will on his disciples. He rebuked but he didn’t control. Today there is so much control over what the workers are ALLOWED to do or to say, which quenches the spirit and limits individual gifts. Most overseers are enforcers of traditions and social expectations and many such things that Jesus did not live or teach. Ye swallow a camel and strain at a gnat. The workers live and travel like the wealthy. Jesus lived and travelled humbly. Everywhere Jesus went he lived and taught truth. Not confined to gospel meeting. Today the workers are afraid of being labeled so heavenly minded they’re no earthly good...that brings persecution. No one wants persecution. So there’s very little teaching in our homes about Jesus. Our homes are just becoming free room and board in exchange for one wishy-washy gospel meeting per week. Jesus never disposed of anyone that was following him. Workers do that and have labeled some that disagreed with or questioned their thinking, an “enemy of the truth” while their own thinking was an enemy to the truth. I notice what you often defend is your own experiences from the past which were good times but you fail to see the suffering or the burdens of the people at the expense of caring for workers who aren’t living as much like Jesus as they think they are. Many workers are unapproachable. Jesus was approachable. Many workers want nothing to do with “problems”....like the hireling, they flee when trouble comes. Or worse, just eliminate the person asking for help like in my situation. Jesus did not brake the bruised reed or quenched the smoking flax. Workers are not paying attention to scriptures. And then there’s you gathering information on the internet from some quack. We have enough in the bible to go on without adding any of that to it. Really it fits into the truth we have today just as much as anything. Anyone’s thinking but Jesus. More and more people are disgusted with religion or truth because it’s so badly represented.
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Post by Grant on May 9, 2020 4:44:47 GMT -5
The workers ministry is nothing like that of the apostles. The apostles went from place to place preaching the Gospel. The workers on the other hand spend a life time sitting in the homes and visiting their converts. They are not out there seeking the lost sheep, so to speak as the apostles were. There's no comparison at all. Completely different lifestyles.
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Post by Grant on May 9, 2020 4:52:40 GMT -5
that verse doesn't say ALL the apostles it says OTHER apostles which could be 1-2 for all we know.... Paul himself spoke about being single and unmarried even as HE WAS.... 1 cor 7: 7,8 Amen, Wally..... Why, aren't they wanting to follow Jesus as the pattern instead of Peter and a few of the other apostles. Why, would God or Jesus wants to make the married apostles life and with children in the ministry a LIVING nightmares! Those of us who had been in the work KNOWS the life of a worker is ALREADY very difficult as it is.... Can you image, take care of the wife and children in the work! WOW...
Plenty of people have and take children on the mission field. Pastors also have children. No reason it shouldn't work. As I've said before, the problem with the workers is that they mostly all have the same role of ministry. The Bible talks of different ministries. The workers are mostly pastors and no where does it say pastors should live like the apostles. The apostles were more like evangelists who travelled around, the majority of workers do not. Moving them every year is not wandering evangelists. So many things have changed within the workers ministry with perhaps the biggest change being that of not going where the spirit led but being man led. The rule of not being allowed to get married was also a big change. The workers ministry has changed in many ways from when they first started.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 9, 2020 5:03:59 GMT -5
I would have no issue with married workers, opposite genders of course! It was not uncommon last century, but the present day system, like the celibate unmarried Catholic clergy, it has perpetuated the myth that it was always that way. People seem to be quite comfortable in re-inventing history to suit today's customs.
To respond to what Gill wrote. I used to have opinions about older men marrying much younger women. Used to joke that it gave new meaning to "feeling old age creeping on!"
However, I also recall Fred Phillips, an older ex-worker marrying Anna who was much younger. I used to like visiting Fred and Anna, and they had two daughters, and both are in the work today. I have completely changed my opinions about "age gaps" in marriages, and simply see that if it is love, it works. Maybe there is a greater chance of a longer widowhood, but c'est la vie.
My dentist is 25 years older than his second wife, and they have three great kids, and are very happy. We socialise from time to time, and enjoy their company.
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Post by Get off of TMB on May 9, 2020 7:30:44 GMT -5
The age difference increases the chances of children seeing their old daddy in a casket. Some people don't want to think about that.
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Post by Get off of TMB on May 9, 2020 7:33:07 GMT -5
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 9, 2020 9:50:34 GMT -5
Paul tells us very clearly in 1 Cor 9:5 that all the apostles took their wives with them. It’s important for people to be truthful and not promote a myth when the facts are written in black and white. Jesus clearly saw it as a positive that the men he chose were married - otherwise he would have only chosen unmarried men and said quite a bit about this necessity. But he didn’t because He didn’t require it. It’s best for people to just be honest and state that the requirement for a worker to not marry is just a 2x2 doctrine - it’s not Scriptural at all. Even the Catholic Church admits openly that its requirement for its priests to remain unmarried is not Scriptural. that verse doesn't say ALL the apostles it says OTHER apostles which could be 1-2 for all we know.... Paul himself spoke about being single and unmarried even as HE WAS.... 1 cor 7: 7,8 The verse says "Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?". That doesn't sound like too many exclusions to me. Agree that Paul was single when he wrote to the church in Corinth. He may have been a widower and chosen not to remarry - we don't know. Some believe by the language he used, that this was the case churchleaders.com/outreach-missions/outreach-missions-articles/321152-was-the-apostle-paul-married-yes-he-was-heres-how-we-know-denny-burke.html
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 9, 2020 9:57:59 GMT -5
that verse doesn't say ALL the apostles it says OTHER apostles which could be 1-2 for all we know.... Paul himself spoke about being single and unmarried even as HE WAS.... 1 cor 7: 7,8 Amen, Wally..... Why, aren't they wanting to follow Jesus as the pattern instead of Peter and a few of the other apostles. Why, would God or Jesus wants to make the married apostles life and with children in the ministry a LIVING nightmares! Those of us who had been in the work KNOWS the life of a worker is ALREADY very difficult as it is.... Can you image, take care of the wife and children in the work! WOW...
Hmmm - I think it is pretty clear why Jesus didn't get married. He was/is the eternal Son - He didn't need a wife who he knew would be widowed fairly early on. If workers followed Jesus as the so-called "pattern preacher" they would all only be in the work for 3 and half years before they headed for Jerusalem to be crucified. This whole "pattern preacher" thing is not Scriptural but invented by William and Eddie. Jesus was the Messiah - specific role and work to do in leaving heaven, entering humanity, dying and rising again. He IS the gospel.
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Post by snow on May 9, 2020 13:44:06 GMT -5
The age difference increases the chances of children seeing their old daddy in a casket. Some people don't want to think about that. There are plenty of things that could have children see a parent in a coffin. Life is not without risks. Is that a reason to not be happy, not love? I don't think so. Also, happily married men seem to live longer.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 14:37:02 GMT -5
The age difference increases the chances of children seeing their old daddy in a casket. Some people don't want to think about that. well that generally happens to kids anyways unless of course they die before their parent....
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Post by iam on May 9, 2020 15:11:06 GMT -5
Where is our faith? WHAT faith!? Suppose God wanted a woman to marry someone younger and have a child or children. Suppose God wanted a young man to marry an older woman and have a child or children? And suppose God wanted them to be workers. That would be something God would do just to confound men’s thinking which is so unwilling to think anything but what what we’ve been TOLD to think. Or better yet, suppose God told a man to marry a w h o r e because he wanted to teach his people that they were no better than others that they looked down upon... Hosea 1:2 The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of ladydoms and children of ladydoms: for the land hath committed great ladydom, departing from the Lord.
There is so much control of man that God is NOT in control because he allows us to take the control away from him! So yes, he IS in control ultimately but he also lets us be our own boss so to speak and go about establishing our own righteousness which is EXACTLY what’s going on in the truth today.
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Post by nathan on May 9, 2020 16:51:05 GMT -5
Amen, Wally..... Why, aren't they wanting to follow Jesus as the pattern instead of Peter and a few of the other apostles. Why, would God or Jesus wants to make the married apostles life and with children in the ministry a LIVING nightmares! Those of us who had been in the work KNOWS the life of a worker is ALREADY very difficult as it is.... Can you image, take care of the wife and children in the work! WOW...
Hmmm - I think it is pretty clear why Jesus didn't get married. He was/is the eternal Son - He didn't need a wife who he knew would be widowed fairly early on. If workers followed Jesus as the so-called "pattern preacher" they would all only be in the work for 3 and half years before they headed for Jerusalem to be crucified. This whole "pattern preacher" thing is not Scriptural but invented by William and Eddie. Jesus was the Messiah - specific role and work to do in leaving heaven, entering humanity, dying and rising again. He IS the gospel. ** If Jesus wanted all his apostles to be married he could have set the example as a married apostle easily. He could have married one of his women converts and set the example for His apostles to follow but he DID NOT. In Matthew 19 Jesus said some eunuchs or unmarried men did this way for the kingdom of God... He set the example for His apostles to follow. Jesus/God knew the gospel will continue for more than the next 2000 yrs and many men and women will need to send forth to preach the gospel Jesus SAVES until he comes again. Jesus gospel work/preaching on earth was over 3 years but the apostles through the centuries will be much, much longer than Jesus. We/believers are at the end of the Gentiles era to enter the kingdom of God. William Irvine and 2x2 workers did NOT start the Matthew 10 2x2 pattern ministry they copied from the Faith Mission. They added baptism for their converts and Sunday morning worship gathering meetings in the homes of 2x2. The Vaudois/Waldenses practiced Matthew 10 2x2 apostles going by Faith AND to trust God for their needs for 1800 yrs prior to the Faith Mission and the 2x2 workers. Matthew 10 pattern is NOT NEW pattern and the 2x2 workers were NOT the first ones either to do it.
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Post by Grant on May 9, 2020 17:02:04 GMT -5
Seems as if you use Jesus as the example when you want and when that doesn't fit you use the apostles but when Ross quotes either you twist it to the opposite.
Again the Faith Mission was not a church, it was seeking converts for Jesus not for themselves.
The workers were likely the first to just go and live and preach to converts only. The Waldensians and Faith Mission ministry, as was Jesus and the apostles, to the unconverted. The workers do not trust God for their needs, they trust the head worker and converts for their needs.
Matthew 19 does not say that all those in ministry are to be unmarried. It says some might choose to be but marriage is fine.
If we have to follow Jesus example because he was not married it also means we have to follow the example that only men should be in ministry because Jesus was a man and he also only chose men.
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Post by nathan on May 9, 2020 17:44:29 GMT -5
Seems as if you use Jesus as the example when you want and when that doesn't fit you use the apostles but when Ross quotes either you twist it to the opposite. Again the Faith Mission was not a church, it was seeking converts for Jesus not for themselves. The workers were likely the first to just go and live and preach to converts only. The Waldensians and Faith Mission ministry, as was Jesus and the apostles, to the unconverted. The workers do not trust God for their needs, they trust the head worker and converts for their needs. Matthew 19 does not say that all those in ministry are to be unmarried. It says some might choose to be but marriage is fine. If we have to follow Jesus example because he was not married it also means we have to follow the example that only men should be in ministry because Jesus was a man and he also only chose men. ** I have read history documents of the Vaudois apostles they use Jesus Matthew 19 as their reason to live celibate lives for the kingdom of God. Most of the Vaudois apostles/preachers were NOT married only very small numbers of married couples in the ministry. They followed this tradition for 1800 yrs. These Vaudois were the apostle Paul's own converts in Rome. They followed Paul's examples as an unmarried preacher and Paul followed Jesus example. Most 2x2 workers today follow Jesus example as an unmarried preacher of the gospel. The workers today are reaping the early days workers HARD laborers, when they slept in the fields, schools, barns, or in the open sky. They didn't have enough foods to eat. Through their sowing the gospel seeds, many came to Christ so the workers today are enjoying the fruits of the early days workers ground breaking.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 17:53:48 GMT -5
“The past is already gone, the future is not yet here. There’s only one moment for you to live, and that is the present moment” – the famous quote by the venerable Lord Buddha.
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