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Post by speak on May 25, 2020 20:57:11 GMT -5
There is a particularly unsavoury character in the South Island who is also a member of your church and makes his living from lying and selling snake oil. That kind of behaviour should be called out. So those who know about this the question should be asked why hasn't he been called out?
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Post by speak on May 25, 2020 21:00:11 GMT -5
In answer to Bill Gates and his wife Melinda house that you posted; -granted it is a mansion but for a billionaire where would you expect them to live?
This is also what they have done:
Bill Gates has donated over $28 Billion to charity and has stated he wishes to donate a further 95% of his wealth to charity.
The couple co-founded the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, "the largest private charitable foundation" in the world "with a $40 billion trust endowment," according to Forbes.
A mansion for $43 million seems small in comparison.
I have a lot of respect for people like Bill and Melinda Gates, there must be also many who just give without recognition.
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Post by speak on May 25, 2020 21:04:31 GMT -5
That kind of behaviour should be called out. I have and I get a very similar response to what I get when I call out the local TMB con-artist. Must go with the territory Would the initials be R.C.
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Post by fixit on May 25, 2020 22:46:09 GMT -5
Please don't be fooled into thinking bill gates doesn't write off all his donations etc on his tax, as well as using his organizations as tax relief any good business person would do that... As for vaccinations yes the world population needs 70-80% herd immunity or to be vaccinated for any vaccine to work. It's interesting that for people 'so educated' you can't accept others have an opinion different to yours.... they must be wrong.... Do your research, look to see if quantitative and qualitative studies have been done repeatedly into vaccines and make your own decision... everyone is entitled to free choice..... Its good to know a spanner really does get you all turning.... O can accept others opinions as long as they are 'opinions and not the facts. Do your research, everyone is entitled to free choice..... Not really. There are responsibilities placed on members of society e.g. if I earn money (or spend money) I have to pay taxes.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2020 0:16:50 GMT -5
Please don't be fooled into thinking bill gates doesn't write off all his donations etc on his tax, as well as using his organizations as tax relief any good business person would do that... As for vaccinations yes the world population needs 70-80% herd immunity or to be vaccinated for any vaccine to work. It's interesting that for people 'so educated' you can't accept others have an opinion different to yours.... they must be wrong.... Do your research, look to see if quantitative and qualitative studies have been done repeatedly into vaccines and make your own decision... everyone is entitled to free choice..... Its good to know a spanner really does get you all turning.... I have no problem accepting others opinions that are different to mine as long as it is just their opinion but when it comes to facts vs opinions; I will stick to the facts.
Don't be so cavalier as to tell me "Do your research,.." I do my own research not only of the substance of the subject but what the qualifications of the source as to whether it can be trusted. I look at the qualification the person has as to whether it is I their field of study. Many go outside their field to make statements they are unqualified for. I look to see if their colleagues are in agreement. I also realize that even in their own field there are some mavericks
I also rely on my own experience as a nurse.
Polio was still running riot in my day. Do you know what an 'iron lung' consists of ? It is a long full body length iron tube with only one's head on the outside.
An iron lung, is a type of negative pressure ventilator, a mechanical respirator which encloses most of a person's body, and varies the air pressure in the enclosed space, to stimulate breathing. It assists breathing when muscle control is lost, or the work of breathing exceeds the person's ability.
By using negative pressure it actually lifted a person's chest so they inhaled (breathed in) then relaxed the negative pressure and they exhaled (breathed out)
In a demonstration for our class it went into an 'iron lung.' It really was the first time that I realized we can only speak when we exhale, (breathe out.) When the machine caused me to, inhale (breathe in) my words just quit mid sentence, -as if they were being sucked back into my body.
That was the results of polio in my day. Now we have defeated polio due to a vaccine.
I also rely on my own experience as a person. As a child I had measles and whooping cough and chicken pox; -once two at the same time.
It was the only time I ever fainted. When I came to my mother was crying but I really felt much better. Why I felt so much better, -I don't know, but it kind of gave me an insight as to why we may faint.
I also depend on my experience as a mother.
I have a son who is in the autism spectrum. We spent a lot of time, money and energy and trips around the country trying to find answers. Although we found possible causes we never found a definitive cause.
Yes, -he had all of the childhood vaccinations but so did his sister & brother and they do not have any problems.
And yes, -I would love to find the answer but I am not about to grasp at a straw just to satisfy that wish! That is the reason so many people make false assumptions and seem to think all the rest of us should follow them.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2020 0:27:28 GMT -5
O can accept others opinions as long as they are 'opinions and not the facts. Do your research, everyone is entitled to free choice..... Not really. There are responsibilities placed on members of society e.g. if I earn money (or spend money) I have to pay taxes. I am sorry, fixit, -that was a post of mine that somehow went astray! I Think I must have started a skeleton of post and didn't get it filled in! Maybe I am beginning to lose my marbles. I told you guys to let me know when I do.
I sincerely agree with you.
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Post by fixit on May 26, 2020 1:54:43 GMT -5
Not really. There are responsibilities placed on members of society e.g. if I earn money (or spend money) I have to pay taxes. I am sorry, fixit, -that was a post of mine that somehow went astray! I Think I must have started a skeleton of post and didn't get it filled in! Maybe I am beginning to lose my marbles. I told you guys to let me know when I do.
I sincerely agree with you.It's an important point though. It's not possible for everyone to have free choice, because free choice impacts the rights of others. By making polio and measles vaccines compulsory, you can free billions from the risk of contracting polio and measles PLUS the freedom of never needing a polio or measles vaccine.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2020 2:16:05 GMT -5
It's an important point though. It's not possible for everyone to have free choice, because free choice impacts the rights of others. By making polio and measles vaccines compulsory, you can free billions from the risk of contracting polio and measles PLUS the freedom of never needing a polio or measles vaccine. Is Polio bug carried by horses? just wondering as I remember hearing something about this last century.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2020 2:20:34 GMT -5
It's an important point though. It's not possible for everyone to have free choice, because free choice impacts the rights of others. By making polio and measles vaccines compulsory, you can free billions from the risk of contracting polio and measles PLUS the freedom of never needing a polio or measles vaccine. You are absolutely right, fixit.
It certainly is an important point.
I absolutely do agree with you.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2020 2:28:24 GMT -5
It's an important point though. It's not possible for everyone to have free choice, because free choice impacts the rights of others. By making polio and measles vaccines compulsory, you can free billions from the risk of contracting polio and measles PLUS the freedom of never needing a polio or measles vaccine. Is Polio bug carried by horses? just wondering as I remember hearing something about this last century. I have never heard of polio being a transmission from horse to human problem.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2020 2:49:49 GMT -5
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shushy
Royal Member
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Post by shushy on May 26, 2020 5:43:08 GMT -5
Please don't be fooled into thinking bill gates doesn't write off all his donations etc on his tax, as well as using his organizations as tax relief any good business person would do that... As for vaccinations yes the world population needs 70-80% herd immunity or to be vaccinated for any vaccine to work. It's interesting that for people 'so educated' you can't accept others have an opinion different to yours.... they must be wrong.... Do your research, look to see if quantitative and qualitative studies have been done repeatedly into vaccines and make your own decision... everyone is entitled to free choice..... Its good to know a spanner really does get you all turning.... I have no problem accepting others opinions that are different to mine as long as it is just their opinion but when it comes to facts vs opinions; I will stick to the facts.
Don't be so cavalier as to tell me "Do your research,.." I do my own research not only of the substance of the subject but what the qualifications of the source as to whether it can be trusted. I look at the qualification the person has as to whether it is I their field of study. Many go outside their field to make statements they are unqualified for. I look to see if their colleagues are in agreement. I also realize that even in their own field there are some mavericks
I also rely on my own experience as a nurse.
Polio was still running riot in my day. Do you know what an 'iron lung' consists of ? It is a long full body length iron tube with only one's head on the outside.
An iron lung, is a type of negative pressure ventilator, a mechanical respirator which encloses most of a person's body, and varies the air pressure in the enclosed space, to stimulate breathing. It assists breathing when muscle control is lost, or the work of breathing exceeds the person's ability.
By using negative pressure it actually lifted a person's chest so they inhaled (breathed in) then relaxed the negative pressure and they exhaled (breathed out)
In a demonstration for our class it went into an 'iron lung.' It really was the first time that I realized we can only speak when we exhale, (breathe out.) When the machine caused me to, inhale (breathe in) my words just quit mid sentence, -as if they were being sucked back into my body.
That was the results of polio in my day. Now we have defeated polio due to a vaccine.
I also rely on my own experience as a person. As a child I had measles and whooping cough and chicken pox; -once two at the same time.
It was the only time I ever fainted. When I came to my mother was crying but I really felt much better. Why I felt so much better, -I don't know, but it kind of gave me an insight as to why we may faint.
I also depend on my experience as a mother.
I have a son who is in the autism spectrum. We spent a lot of time, money and energy and trips around the country trying to find answers. Although we found possible causes we never found a definitive cause.
Yes, -he had all of the childhood vaccinations but so did his sister & brother and they do not have any problems.
And yes, -I would love to find the answer but I am not about to grasp at a straw just to satisfy that wish! That is the reason so many people make false assumptions and seem to think all the rest of us should follow them.
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shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
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Post by shushy on May 26, 2020 5:47:19 GMT -5
I too want the facts and truth. alarm bells go off in me when I see more and more people stating what was once called a conspiracy a relative genuine concern by the masses and when people get removed from Facebook, youtube and other platforms then I take even more notice. I received this today vaxxter.com/unmasking-the-many-truths-about-the-covid19-plandemic/
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Post by BobWilliston on May 26, 2020 8:27:09 GMT -5
It's an important point though. It's not possible for everyone to have free choice, because free choice impacts the rights of others. By making polio and measles vaccines compulsory, you can free billions from the risk of contracting polio and measles PLUS the freedom of never needing a polio or measles vaccine. Is Polio bug carried by horses? just wondering as I remember hearing something about this last century. I was quite young when polio was going around, but I remember that all the swimming pools in the city were closed and we were told to stay away from water fountains -- but don't remember what else we were to stay away from. I remember being quite relieved when people got over their fear of it.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2020 13:06:52 GMT -5
I too want the facts and truth. alarm bells go off in me when I see more and more people stating what was once called a conspiracy a relative genuine concern by the masses and when people get removed from Facebook, youtube and other platforms then I take even more notice. I received this today vaxxter.com/unmasking-the-many-truths-about-the-covid19-plandemic/There's quite a few lies in that link Shushy. A responsible person would cross check and verify before posting filth like this.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 26, 2020 14:42:24 GMT -5
There are plenty of double-blind placebo controlled studies if you go looking for them! I can find some for flu shots, HPV and chicken pox vaccines readily. Obviously for vaccines already in existence it would be unethical to assign people to a non-vaccinated control group which might put them at risk of disease. Yeah, there may be some individual double-blind placebo controlled studies. I think the real concern is that there are so many vaccines, given all together, in such a short time-period, and there is zero concern/studies for possible interactions. I am not really arguing anything here. I honestly do not know. The stories of people who feel that they/their children have been harmed by vaccines are compelling. (And there are a LOT of them.) Probably even more compelling to me are the efforts to shut them down - it seems almost out of proportion to me. Why would we, as a society, not examine all of this openly? The "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" trope still gets my attention, no matter how many google searches might "disprove" this. An analogy, (though fully acknowledging the limitations of analogies) but seeing as this is a 2X2 related board: I lived in Edmonton, Canada from 1992 - 1996, during (arguably) some of the most cringe-worthy history of the 2X2s. During this time period, I had someone sitting at my dinner table relating how some of the "Enemies of the Truth" disseminated leaflets on the windshields of cars during Special Meetings that year, but that they stymied them by picking them all up before the people got out of the meetings. I was naive enough to think "Why did you do that? Why would you not have simply held a meeting where you refuted all the points in the distributed leaflets?" Yeah. But I still choose to believe that there is something so basic as "Truth", that is solid and sure, no matter how it is spun or obfusticated. (Whether by media silos, "science" (that is really not Science) or 2X2ism.) To me, this is expressed best by questions. Lots and lots of questions.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 26, 2020 14:45:52 GMT -5
I don't know that mortality is the metric here? (Guessing it is not.)
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Post by fixit on May 26, 2020 16:03:18 GMT -5
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2020 16:34:01 GMT -5
There are plenty of double-blind placebo controlled studies if you go looking for them! I can find some for flu shots, HPV and chicken pox vaccines readily. Obviously for vaccines already in existence it would be unethical to assign people to a non-vaccinated control group which might put them at risk of disease. Yeah, there may be some individual double-blind placebo controlled studies. I think the real concern is that there are so many vaccines, given all together, in such a short time-period, and there is zero concern/studies for possible interactions. I am not really arguing anything here. I honestly do not know. The stories of people who feel that they/their children have been harmed by vaccines are compelling. (And there are a LOT of them.) Probably even more compelling to me are the efforts to shut them down - it seems almost out of proportion to me. Why would we, as a society, not examine all of this openly? The "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" trope still gets my attention, no matter how many google searches might "disprove" this. An analogy, (though fully acknowledging the limitations of analogies) but seeing as this is a 2X2 related board: I lived in Edmonton, Canada from 1992 - 1996, during (arguably) some of the most cringe-worthy history of the 2X2s. During this time period, I had someone sitting at my dinner table relating how some of the "Enemies of the Truth" disseminated leaflets on the windshields of cars during Special Meetings that year, but that they stymied them by picking them all up before the people got out of the meetings. I was naive enough to think "Why did you do that? Why would you not have simply held a meeting where you refuted all the points in the distributed leaflets?" Yeah. But I still choose to believe that there is something so basic as "Truth", that is solid and sure, no matter how it is spun or obfusticated. (Whether by media silos, "science" (that is really not Science) or 2X2ism.) To me, this is expressed best by questions. Lots and lots of questions. Your first paragraph contains a falsehood. Drugs and vaccinnes are checked for bad interactions during the course of their development. The reason why anti vaxxers get push back is that many people, myself included like to see truth told. Almost everything I have read that anti vaxxers publish contains falsehoods. Retelling these falsehoods costs lives.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2020 16:56:59 GMT -5
I too want the facts and truth. alarm bells go off in me when I see more and more people stating what was once called a conspiracy a relative genuine concern by the masses and when people get removed from Facebook, youtube and other platforms then I take even more notice. I received this today vaxxter.com/unmasking-the-many-truths-about-the-covid19-plandemic/I can only tell you how I do about trying to trace down any information to determine how well I can trust the veracity of that information.
I went to your link: vaxxter.com/unmasking-the-many-truths-about-the-covid19-plandemic/ and found this: TOPICS:COVID19Plandemictest kits
Posted By: James Grundvig, 05/22/2020
By James Grundvig, Investigative Reporter for Vaxxter
I check out other reports by James Grundvig,
Then I check Vaxxter to see what is about and find:
Vaxxter is a site that promotes alternative health news. Then I check the publisher of Vaxxter which is Epoch TimesSo I check the Epoch Times
I find this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times The Epoch Times is a U.S. based international multi-language newspaper and media extension of the Falun Gong new religious movement. The newspaper is part of the Epoch Media Group, which also operates New Tang Dynasty Television (NTD).
For its articles, the publication draws from a network within China, as well as staff living in the West. The Epoch Times has been publishing in Chinese since May 2000.
It is either sold or distributed free-of-charge in 35 countries, including various international regional editions. The Epoch Times websites are blocked in mainland China. The media outlet is primarily known for promoting far-right politicians across Europe and the United States, and in particular for its promotion of U.S. President Donald Trump; a 2019 report showed it to be the second-largest funder of pro-Trump Facebook advertising after the Trump campaign The group's news sites and YouTube channels have spread conspiracy theories such as QAnon and anti-vaccination propaganda.
The organization frequently promotes other Falun Gong extensions, such as the performing arts wing of the new religious movement, Shen Yun.
Then after doing that kind of search, I feel fairly able to determine whether I can trust the information that is published.
As for this particular article from this source it raises a lot of red flags for me as to whether it can trusted.
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Post by fixit on May 26, 2020 17:12:19 GMT -5
The stories of people who feel that they/their children have been harmed by vaccines are compelling. (And there are a LOT of them.) Some questions to ask: 1. Over what time period and which countries do these stories come from? 2. How many vaccines were administered during that time? 3. How many lives were saved by vaccines, and how much injury, stress, money was saved? It could be argued that the compulsory wearing of seat belts costs lives. Here's a pro-choice argument: theconversation.com/join-the-campaign-for-unrestrained-travel-and-avoid-the-tyranny-of-big-seatbelt-6537Most people could go through life without wearing seat belts and suffer no loss, so why bother wearing them? Isn't it ridiculous making everybody wear seat belts when it's almost always unneccessary? Here's the big question... Would it be in society's interest to have anti-seatbelt campaigners spreading misinformation about the perils of wearing seat belts?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 26, 2020 17:14:17 GMT -5
Is Polio bug carried by horses? just wondering as I remember hearing something about this last century. I was quite young when polio was going around, but I remember that all the swimming pools in the city were closed and we were told to stay away from water fountains -- but don't remember what else we were to stay away from. I remember being quite relieved when people got over their fear of it. It was the only summer that conventions were not held ..
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Post by fixit on May 26, 2020 17:34:51 GMT -5
I too want the facts and truth. alarm bells go off in me when I see more and more people stating what was once called a conspiracy a relative genuine concern by the masses and when people get removed from Facebook, youtube and other platforms then I take even more notice. I received this today vaxxter.com/unmasking-the-many-truths-about-the-covid19-plandemic/There's quite a few lies in that link Shushy. A responsible person would cross check and verify before posting filth like this. Reading those lies only makes me thankful that New Zealand is taking a science-led approach to COVID-19. Yes, there was a price to pay including tempory loss of our freedoms and economic pain. But we avoided having people gasping their last in hospital car parks and mass graves in city parks. Apart from covering their eyes and pretending this is "just a 'flu" what alternatives are the anti-vaxers offering? Oh yeah... Hydroxychloroquine. I hope there will be a class action lawsuit against the anti-vax alternative health movement to compensate for all the health damage this drug causes. The following graph for New Zealand looks good to me:
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Post by SharonArnold on May 26, 2020 18:27:02 GMT -5
Yeah, there may be some individual double-blind placebo controlled studies. I think the real concern is that there are so many vaccines, given all together, in such a short time-period, and there is zero concern/studies for possible interactions. I am not really arguing anything here. I honestly do not know. The stories of people who feel that they/their children have been harmed by vaccines are compelling. (And there are a LOT of them.) Probably even more compelling to me are the efforts to shut them down - it seems almost out of proportion to me. Why would we, as a society, not examine all of this openly? The "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" trope still gets my attention, no matter how many google searches might "disprove" this. An analogy, (though fully acknowledging the limitations of analogies) but seeing as this is a 2X2 related board: I lived in Edmonton, Canada from 1992 - 1996, during (arguably) some of the most cringe-worthy history of the 2X2s. During this time period, I had someone sitting at my dinner table relating how some of the "Enemies of the Truth" disseminated leaflets on the windshields of cars during Special Meetings that year, but that they stymied them by picking them all up before the people got out of the meetings. I was naive enough to think "Why did you do that? Why would you not have simply held a meeting where you refuted all the points in the distributed leaflets?" Yeah. But I still choose to believe that there is something so basic as "Truth", that is solid and sure, no matter how it is spun or obfusticated. (Whether by media silos, "science" (that is really not Science) or 2X2ism.) To me, this is expressed best by questions. Lots and lots of questions. Your first paragraph contains a falsehood. Drugs and vaccinnes are checked for bad interactions during the course of their development. The reason why anti vaxxers get push back is that many people, myself included like to see truth told. Almost everything I have read that anti vaxxers publish contains falsehoods. Retelling these falsehoods costs lives. From my perspective, you are remarkably under-informed. There are few (if any) double-blind placebo controlled studies for interactions between the multitude of vaccines administered to the youngest and most vulnerable in our society.
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Post by fixit on May 26, 2020 18:41:30 GMT -5
We know that vaccination eliminated smallpox from the planet entirely. We know that vaccination has reduced polio to three countries (where anti-vax lies are hindering the work there). We know that vaccination for measles saves lives, and anti-vax propaganda kills kids. Measles is a virus that is completely preventable. The anti-vax movement has blood on their hands. news.un.org/en/story/2019/12/1053131
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Post by SharonArnold on May 26, 2020 18:44:59 GMT -5
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 26, 2020 18:46:39 GMT -5
Your first paragraph contains a falsehood. Drugs and vaccinnes are checked for bad interactions during the course of their development. The reason why anti vaxxers get push back is that many people, myself included like to see truth told. Almost everything I have read that anti vaxxers publish contains falsehoods. Retelling these falsehoods costs lives. From my perspective, you are remarkably under-informed. There are few (if any) double-blind placebo controlled studies for interactions between the multitude of vaccines administered to the youngest and most vulnerable in our society. Can you provide your source for the statement about lack of double blind tests.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 26, 2020 18:49:08 GMT -5
There are few (if any) double-blind placebo controlled studies for interactions between the multitude of vaccines administered to the youngest and most vulnerable in our society. With the exception of the presently being worked on Covid-19 vaccines, you are wrong of on virtually every other vaccine available. Such studies are mandatory routine for vaccine approval. The uproar over the fast production of a vaccine this time is because they are considering bypassing such a study before they begin using it.
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