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Post by Grant on Apr 2, 2020 0:24:38 GMT -5
Only in your warped imagination. It's NOT ONLY my warped imagination... Whathat ex-2x2 wrote: "Interestingly, there is a picture of ALL the Faith Mission pilgrims/preachers as of 1892, standing in our rows like the 2x2 workers picture, and at their feet is a banner "The Holiness" movement is simply the idea that you are redeemed when you are born again in Christ, but you are NOT sanctified at that point; you are NOT holy. William Irvine was steeped in it, because he attended Keswick Convention which is seen as the center of the Holiness movement. Diagram of the Holiness movement (John Wesley founder).... www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/holiness/Holiness%20Movement.gifAnyway, the pedigree is actually from the Moravian Church which dates back to 1457. John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist, but who was actually an Anglican Holiness doctrine widely in his sermons and later in his book titled "Christians perfection" is the same idea as Holiness. So, this is from Wiki---- It was on the voyage to the colonies that the Wesleys first came into contact with Moravian settlers was influenced by their deep faith and spirituality. During the voyage a storm came up and broke the mast of the ship. While the English panicked, the Moravians calmly sang hymns and prayed. This experienced led Wesley possessed inner strength which he lacked. The deeply personal religion that the Moravian pietists practiced heavily influence Wesley's theology of Methodist. And then the Moravian church was an offshoot of Catholicism, but almost a pre-Reformation one. However, some people believe the Moravians church, I will quote the Apostolic Succession through the Waldensians (1170 A.D.) Church. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiness_movement Anyway, potentially the lineage is: Jesus Christ the Founder of the New Testament 2x2 apostolic ministry and Church (33 A.D) >>> Paul the Apostle (68 A.D.) ...... the Vaudois (400 A.D.) ...... the Waldensians ( 1170 A.D.) ...... Albigeneses ( 1300 A.D.) ...... Moravians (1400 A.D.) ...... John Wesley (1700 A.D) ...... Holiness movement (1800 A.D.) ..... the Faith Mission ( 1886 A.D.) ...... 2x2 Workers and Friends ...... (1898/1900------>> Jesus 2nd coming!) I would have voted for 1897 William Irvine Founder date UNTIL a) I read John Long's Journal b) learned more on the socio-historical background that information and other preachers. That background included information on the Faith Mission, the Awakening in Scotland, various independent preaching movement and before that I could NOT see the forest before the trees. Now, I see William Irvine, John Long and the other first 2x2 workers as having separated from a much larger preaching movement in Scotland in the late 19th Century, one which culminated in schism because the main denomination would NOT accept the Holiness doctrine. As a "late date" fan at the present time, that would certainly make William Irvine the FIRST leader/overseer/head worker of the 2x2 movement. Founder? I have just NEVER liked calling William Irvine the Founder of the 2x2 movement. Nathan's selection of Edward Cooney quotes to Impartial Reporter in 1909 in the early days, and shed quite a bit of light on the early days of the movement, in my opinion. John Wesley's the Methodist worked and preaching on Christians perfection and his ideas in that area were strongly influenced in that area of Moravian Church, which is the Vaudois, and the Waldensians. ~~ Edward Cooney (1867-1960) 2x2 early days worker in (1901) wrote To Impartial Reporter 10/7/1909
1) Edward Cooney wrote, " We (2x2 workers) did NOT start this Jesus Way. It was started and planned by God before we were thought of, and we are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the tradition of men. There was in the day, William Irvine, upon whose heart God's Spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the TRUTH as it is in Jesus." ( By Patricia Roberts book page 43-45) Edward Cooney wrote, "Undoubtedly God has called us and separated us to be His people in the beginning, and most prominent and most used in this calling out a people, William Irvine who at the time of being sent forth to be a prophet, saw more clearly than any of us that the revelation of the Father to each individual child of His is Christ would build His Church, and that the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." (By Patricia Roberts Page 43-45) Potential lineage is: Catholic, Church of England, Methodist, Faith Mission, the workers. You keep quoting whathats false lineage.
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Post by nathan on Apr 2, 2020 0:26:28 GMT -5
~~ August, 1954: Testimony of an ex-2x2 Ida West from North Ireland
An interested person has asked me to tell my story with regard to my faith and the fellowship I have kept. My parents were John and Sarah West brought up in the Church of Ireland (Anglican). My father, for a time previous to his marriage, moved and worked among the Methodists. Soon after his marriage in 1901, he, Edward Cooney, Tom Betty and others, all of whom used to evangelize together, moved out of the sects to which they belonged, Church of Ireland, Methodist, Presbyterian and so on, into fellowship with William Irvine, a Scottish Presbyterian evangelist in the Faith Mission, who was with others moving out of Faith Mission toward clearer light on New Testament teaching and practices. They took the view that Christendom was confusion of which God was not the author. So they decided to go to Christendom and the world the way Jesus sent his apostles to Israel (Matthew 10) and to the world (Matthew 28). This is what the preachers did. My father, who did not go to preach, opened his heart and home to these preachers who sold their possessions, scattered their money to the poor and went out to preach by faith. Their message was repent, believe the gospel, follow the teaching and example of New Testament founders--Christ and the apostles. This move raised the opposition of clergy and leaders among the denominations, e.g. Church of Ireland, Methodists, Presbyterians, Salvation Army, Plymouth Brethren and others. The young movement held the course to take was 'Come out of Babylon' which is confusion. By this they meant to refuse fellowship with the world, false teachers and systems because they contradicted the teaching and example of Christ and his apostles. Their opponents held that it was better to stay in and clean up inside; but they ignored the fact that principalities and powers need exposure and triumphing over (Col. 2:15). This could only be done by a fuller manifestation of Christ through willing witnesses which this people proved by bearing their cross representing Christ as He in bearing his cross represented or declared the Father. The movement grew and spread rapidly. 1) enuff wrote: Potential lineage is: Catholic, Church of England, Methodist, Faith Mission, the workers. You keep quoting whathats false lineage. ~~ I don't think so, I believe it's You who has the half-truth lineage, whathat is correct and quite good with his potential lineage outline. 1) 6/17/19 Mountain/RAM wrote: Anyway, I have to say that you are a very hard man to fool, Nathan. You meticulously research anything before you will believe it as fact. Such screening makes it very difficult to convince you of anything. I'm sure many on this board will share my views regarding your proneness to detail and doubting. Therefore I would strongly advise anyone who doubts anything that you post, that they likewise venture on the quest of meticulous research before doing so. You've set the standard. Let others follow. Just as the gondolier seldom encounters rabbits in his pathway, so too let your detractors encounter discrepancy with what you present as genuine. Consider Nathan, an extremely intelligent character, who carries out meticulous research before presenting his views on here. Basically he is second to none. Have you noticed that there are several atheists on this board and every time Nathan engages them he wipes the floor with their arguments. Have you ever considered that these atheists are mere concoctions of Nathan, whom he shoots down time and again with his views, leaving himself the master of the debate. Generally there is no contest. Nathan wins hands down every time. They have no answer to him. Have you ever wondered why that is? 2) jetmech said:
From what I've read, Roselyn, Jesus will come back like a thief in the night … no one knows when a thief in the night will be coming nor from what direction, nor to what location, etc. So, I can't say one way or the other. I can't outright say my friend is wrong about the Venus; but, I can say that from what I've read in the Bible it's highly unlikely. With that said, I believe too many times different ones on this board are tergiversatious in their thinking and communicating. Ever tried to hold a conversation with a tergiversate? You're wasting your time, because the tergiversate will NEVER agree with you on anything, and that's the very basis of being a tergiversate … never to agree, always to debate … it's a 'condition.' I admire Nathan, especially since he's an Asian, because he understands the English language as well as he does, and I admire the detail at which he understands biblical ideas and concepts after having grown up in Vietnam and moved to the USA and obviously self-taught himself so many things about our culture, adopting our ideas, and taking these things on himself. I don't agree with every little thing Nathan says; but, I can say honestly, I've learned more from Nathan about the Bible than I learned in gospel meeting during my entire childhood and adult life - before I met him on the board. I believe if the tergiversates who constantly feign disagreement with Nate as a reason to constantly reply negative, would step back, take a breath, pause and contemplate, and "listen to understand" rather than "listen to reply" … they'd see many things to admire Nathan about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 1:02:16 GMT -5
Its BS. They impose on themselves their own petty hardships, impose their preferences on everyone else, suppose they are deserving of the highest place now and evermore, depose of anyone who doesn't see likewise, and superimpose their cult over the gospel. The words of Jesus come to mind... "they have their reward". You had NEVR been a worker? right... So, how would you know? are you speaking from a worker's experience? You are speaking from an outsider/NOT a worker, an outsider looking in maybe, it is you who is talking nonsense, here. Jesus said his servants will receive 100 folds here and now, and a lot more to come after death.
I have many family members in the work. Family owning convention grounds. 4th generation "professing". Do you still think I'm clueless and Jesus lives in Venus?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 2, 2020 1:03:52 GMT -5
You had NEVR been a worker? right... So, how would you know? are you speaking from a worker's experience? You are speaking from an outsider/NOT a worker, an outsider looking in maybe, it is you who is talking nonsense, here. Jesus said his servants will receive 100 folds here and now, and a lot more to come after death.
I have many family members in the work. Family owning convention grounds. 4th generation "professing". Do you still think I'm clueless and Jesus lives in Venus? Nathan seems to think he is the fount of all knowledge and everyone else knows diddly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 1:39:12 GMT -5
i am reminded of the fact that i've been told on tmb that even though i have black friends and minority friends i am still a racist so the fact someone has worker relatives, convention grounds and is this or that generation doesn't mean they are a worker or understand what it is to be a worker....i am not saying anyone is clueless however. i myself am 5th gen on one side and 4th gen on the other, we've had at least 5 workers in our family if not more and my one GG uncle had either the first convention or special meeting or gospel meeting in iowa 1906ish? on his property, and as a boy of 15 i went on several weekend long rounds with the brother workers and last but not least was called to the work but rejected...and i still don't have any real clue as to what makes a worker tick or live...
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Post by nathan on Apr 2, 2020 1:54:15 GMT -5
You had NEVR been a worker? right... So, how would you know? are you speaking from a worker's experience? You are speaking from an outsider/NOT a worker, an outsider looking in maybe, it is you who is talking nonsense, here. Jesus said his servants will receive 100 folds here and now, and a lot more to come after death.
I have many family members in the work. Family owning convention grounds. 4th generation "professing". Do you still think I'm clueless and Jesus lives in Venus? You are still an outsider looking in, you are NOT a worker and it doesn't matter how many brothers and sisters or cousins you had in the work you have in your clan. You don't know what it like to live as a worker until you walk in their shoes. People often jumped to wrong conclusion or say half-truth things because what they read this or that on the Internet websites or their brothers and sisters were in the work so they know it all.
You know ONE of the Admin. Rules is NOT to mention about the forbidden subject on the main page. Why, are you NOT honoring his request? Why, are you NOT showing him the respect and break the rules you know he asked people NOT to do it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 2, 2020 8:28:29 GMT -5
Just be careful because people are going crazy from isolation. Actually I've just been talking about this with the microwave and toaster and all of us agreed that things are getting bad. I didn't mention anything to the washing machine because she puts a different spin on everything. Certainly not to the fridge because he is acting cold and distant. In the end the iron calmed me down because she said everything is fine, nothing is too pressing. The vacuum was very unsympathetic...told me to just suck it up, but the fan was more optimistic and hoped that it would all soon blow over. The toilet looked a bit flushed when I asked it's opinion and didn't say anything but the doorknob told me to get a grip. The front door told me was I was unhinged so the curtains told me... you guessed it...to pull myself together! This made my day! I love it! And I shared it with some others who are liking it also! Thanks for sharing!
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2020 8:38:43 GMT -5
I certainly don't want anybody to know how much I gave and to whom it went and what they used it for, none of anyone else business. Booze, motel rooms, and prostitutes may be worth knowing about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 9:08:18 GMT -5
I have many family members in the work. Family owning convention grounds. 4th generation "professing". Do you still think I'm clueless and Jesus lives in Venus? You are still an outsider looking in, you are NOT a worker and it doesn't matter how many brothers and sisters or cousins you had in the work you have in your clan. You don't know what it like to live as a worker until you walk in their shoes. People often jumped to wrong conclusion or say half-truth things because what they read this or that on the Internet websites or their brothers and sisters were in the work so they know it all.
You know ONE of the Admin. Rules is NOT to mention about the forbidden subject on the main page. Why, are you NOT honoring his request? Why, are you NOT showing him the respect and break the rules you know he asked people NOT to do it.
The fact that you use the term "outsider" like a good little truther just reminds me what you're all about. Done with you, Nathan. I've humored your delusions and idiocracy far too long. I never claimed to know it all, you liar. The accusation that, because someone claims something that doesn't agree with one of several delusions in your head, they must think they "know it all"... what a load of BS. (In fact, it's why you'll never understand science.) I really don't expect anything better from you at this point though. I DO claim to have LOTS of experience dealing directly in this issue. I have talked to several ex-workers. I know it's difficult. My claim is that it's self-imposed, and serves no real purpose. They don't seek lost souls. They could serve the same purpose (essentially pastors) living normal lives. And, because they are generally set on a pedestal (though many don't want it), they (as a group) manufacture many ridiculous ideas. And, though they (and you) are more than willing to condemn others to hell (a dumb delusion itself, but still the greatest and most lofty criticism - " God and me think you'll be in hell!" - how stupid.) any criticism of them is met with "oh...it's so hard.... your perspective isn't informed.... just humans...." Why aren't YOU still in the work, Nathan?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 9:13:12 GMT -5
This has shadows of Mark Twain 😂😂😂
1) 6/17/19 Mountain/RAM wrote: Anyway, I have to say that you are a very hard man to fool, Nathan. You meticulously research anything before you will believe it as fact. Such screening makes it very difficult to convince you of anything. I'm sure many on this board will share my views regarding your proneness to detail and doubting. Therefore I would strongly advise anyone who doubts anything that you post, that they likewise venture on the quest of meticulous research before doing so. You've set the standard. Let others follow. Just as the gondolier seldom encounters rabbits in his pathway, so too let your detractors encounter discrepancy with what you present as genuine.
Consider Nathan, an extremely intelligent character, who carries out meticulous research before presenting his views on here. Basically he is second to none. Have you noticed that there are several atheists on this board and every time Nathan engages them he wipes the floor with their arguments. Have you ever considered that these atheists are mere concoctions of Nathan, whom he shoots down time and again with his views, leaving himself the master of the debate. Generally there is no contest. Nathan wins hands down every time. They have no answer to him. Have you ever wondered why that is?
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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2020 10:01:58 GMT -5
Have you seen been to conventions or special meeting workers tours ever? They work those workers to death, travelling here and there everywhere by the time you are done with them! most of them are half-dead and take weeks to recuperate. They go into danger area, no good drinking water, malaria to see the friends and some of them get really sick when they get back to their countries. Billions have a much harder life. 21,000 people die every day from hunger or malnutrition.
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Post by Annan on Apr 2, 2020 10:28:35 GMT -5
...I have talked to several ex-workers. I know it's difficult. My claim is that it's self-imposed, and serves no real purpose. They don't seek lost souls. They could serve the same purpose (essentially pastors) living normal lives. And, because they are generally set on a pedestal (though many don't want it), they (as a group) manufacture many ridiculous ideas. THIS! Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 10:59:15 GMT -5
...I have talked to several ex-workers. I know it's difficult. My claim is that it's self-imposed, and serves no real purpose. They don't seek lost souls. They could serve the same purpose (essentially pastors) living normal lives. And, because they are generally set on a pedestal (though many don't want it), they (as a group) manufacture many ridiculous ideas. THIS! Thank you. When they started out in late 1800s, they were truly poor. They also placed a heavy emphasis on actually spreading (their) gospel. I don't agree on principle with their message, but I respect them insomuch as they were accurately living out what they claimed. I know some workers enter the work under the impression they'll be doing just that. As irritated as I am with Nathan, I respect the fact that he is true to his beliefs. I think his beliefs are crazy, but I can respect his integrity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 11:17:14 GMT -5
Have you seen been to conventions or special meeting workers tours ever? They work those workers to death, travelling here and there everywhere by the time you are done with them! most of them are half-dead and take weeks to recuperate. They go into danger area, no good drinking water, malaria to see the friends and some of them get really sick when they get back to their countries. Billions have a much harder life. 21,000 people die every day from hunger or malnutrition. but they're just "worldlings" and "outsiders". Probably deserved it. No doubt they all rejected the workers' gospel. But we're just thankful we can't judge.
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Post by nathan on Apr 2, 2020 11:24:29 GMT -5
You are still an outsider looking in, you are NOT a worker and it doesn't matter how many brothers and sisters or cousins you had in the work you have in your clan. You don't know what it like to live as a worker until you walk in their shoes. People often jumped to wrong conclusion or say half-truth things because what they read this or that on the Internet websites or their brothers and sisters were in the work so they know it all.
You know ONE of the Admin. Rules is NOT to mention about the forbidden subject on the main page. Why, are you NOT honoring his request? Why, are you NOT showing him the respect and break the rules you know he asked people NOT to do it.
The fact that you use the term "outsider" like a good little truther just reminds me what you're all about. Done with you, Nathan. I've humored your delusions and idiocracy far too long. I never claimed to know it all, you liar. The accusation that, because someone claims something that doesn't agree with one of several delusions in your head, they must think they "know it all"... what a load of BS. (In fact, it's why you'll never understand science.) I really don't expect anything better from you at this point though. I DO claim to have LOTS of experience dealing directly in this issue. I have talked to several ex-workers. I know it's difficult. My claim is that it's self-imposed, and serves no real purpose. They don't seek lost souls. They could serve the same purpose (essentially pastors) living normal lives. And, because they are generally set on a pedestal (though many don't want it), they (as a group) manufacture many ridiculous ideas. And, though they (and you) are more than willing to condemn others to hell (a dumb delusion itself, but still the greatest and most lofty criticism - " God and me think you'll be in hell!" - how stupid.) any criticism of them is met with "oh...it's so hard.... your perspective isn't informed.... just humans...." Why aren't YOU still in the work, Nathan? I am NOT active as 2x2 worker but I am still God's chosen servant serving Him where He has planted me for over 25 years.
I didn't say you know it all, and I am NOT a liar either because I am telling the truth as I know it. It might not agree with your own experiences. I have never claim I KNOW it all, I just share with you my experiences and understanding, and that is NOT a lie.
Can you post without insults and attacking me that is TMB rule #1. You share your there is no God belief and I will share God is everywhere and He is for real and let the readers decide for themselves who they want to believe is telling the TRUTH, ok.
Let me clarify.... Outsiders mean not 2x2 professing in this case it means you were NOT a worker so you wouldn't know what a worker's life, even if you had brothers, sisters in the work.
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Post by nathan on Apr 2, 2020 11:29:50 GMT -5
When they started out in late 1800s, they were truly poor. They also placed a heavy emphasis on actually spreading (their) gospel. I don't agree on principle with their message, but I respect them insomuch as they were accurately living out what they claimed. I know some workers enter the work under the impression they'll be doing just that. As irritated as I am with Nathan, I respect the fact that he is true to his beliefs. I think his beliefs are crazy, but I can respect his integrity. Thanks, I appreciate that and I respect for your belief... Let us share our experiences and hopefully, we can learn and understand each other beliefs in mature ways. Life is too short, we are NOT going to be around in this world for long with the current Corona Virus is spreading fast. Here today and gone tomorrow.
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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2020 11:29:58 GMT -5
but they're just "worldlings" and "outsiders". Probably deserved it. No doubt they all rejected the workers' gospel. But we're just thankful we can't judge. Most workers problems are 1st world problems.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 2, 2020 12:18:53 GMT -5
When they started out in late 1800s, they were truly poor. They also placed a heavy emphasis on actually spreading (their) gospel. I don't agree on principle with their message, but I respect them insomuch as they were accurately living out what they claimed. I know some workers enter the work under the impression they'll be doing just that. As irritated as I am with Nathan, I respect the fact that he is true to his beliefs. I think his beliefs are crazy, but I can respect his integrity. I disagree with the comment about integrity. One cannot have both beliefs that are crazy and in fact may be harmful if followed through with and integrity. In such cases they simply have a resolve that they alone are correct.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 14:55:50 GMT -5
When they started out in late 1800s, they were truly poor. They also placed a heavy emphasis on actually spreading (their) gospel. I don't agree on principle with their message, but I respect them insomuch as they were accurately living out what they claimed. I know some workers enter the work under the impression they'll be doing just that. As irritated as I am with Nathan, I respect the fact that he is true to his beliefs. I think his beliefs are crazy, but I can respect his integrity. I disagree with the comment about integrity. One cannot have both beliefs that are crazy and in fact may be harmful if followed through with and integrity. In such cases they simply have a resolve that they alone are correct. I guess by integrity, I meant acting in a way consistent with beliefs. I examined my beliefs and discovered that I couldn't believe in the "one true way", nor could I financially or morally support people who claim to represent the "one true way" and yet generally don't actively seek lost souls. So, I changed the beliefs that had been reinforced since I was a child. That's not easy, as many here know, but the benefits are well well worth it.
If I believed/claimed/accepted that I was a "true sent minister", integrity would be spending a life desperately contacting everyone I could, and trying to persuade them to be saved. It would not be traveling from home to home of the friends (the people who supposedly need it least), and not even bothering to get to know their neighbors. What that passively says is that they are fine with the vast vast majority of people burning in hell forever.
And I'm not an atheist (actively asserting there's no God). I have faith and hope, of a sort which wouldn't seem at all legitimate to someone holding a traditional professing worldview.
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Post by Annan on Apr 2, 2020 15:03:57 GMT -5
My view growing up in the 2x2 way is that both workers and friends have a martyr complex. When I was embarrassed to go to school with dress hems below my knee when everyone else wore mini skirts, I was told I was suffering for God and would be rewarded in heaven. I used to think that if I ever got to heaven that I would push Jesus off his throne and sit there myself. I did. I thought that. I was a kid. Don't go ballistic.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 15:10:08 GMT -5
The fact that you use the term "outsider" like a good little truther just reminds me what you're all about. Done with you, Nathan. I've humored your delusions and idiocracy far too long. I never claimed to know it all, you liar. The accusation that, because someone claims something that doesn't agree with one of several delusions in your head, they must think they "know it all"... what a load of BS. (In fact, it's why you'll never understand science.) I really don't expect anything better from you at this point though. I DO claim to have LOTS of experience dealing directly in this issue. I have talked to several ex-workers. I know it's difficult. My claim is that it's self-imposed, and serves no real purpose. They don't seek lost souls. They could serve the same purpose (essentially pastors) living normal lives. And, because they are generally set on a pedestal (though many don't want it), they (as a group) manufacture many ridiculous ideas. And, though they (and you) are more than willing to condemn others to hell (a dumb delusion itself, but still the greatest and most lofty criticism - " God and me think you'll be in hell!" - how stupid.) any criticism of them is met with "oh...it's so hard.... your perspective isn't informed.... just humans...." Why aren't YOU still in the work, Nathan? I am NOT active as 2x2 worker but I am still God's chosen servant serving Him where He has planted me for over 25 years.
I didn't say you know it all, and I am NOT a liar either because I am telling the truth as I know it. It might not agree with your own experiences. I have never claim I KNOW it all, I just share with you my experiences and understanding, and that is NOT a lie.
Can you post without insults and attacking me that is TMB rule #1. You share your there is no God belief and I will share God is everywhere and He is for real and let the readers decide for themselves who they want to believe is telling the TRUTH, ok.
Let me clarify.... Outsiders mean not 2x2 professing in this case it means you were NOT a worker so you wouldn't know what a worker's life, even if you had brothers, sisters in the work.
"People often jumped to wrong conclusion or say half-truth things because what they read this or that on the Internet websites or their brothers and sisters were in the work so they know it all."
^ this is what I was referring to. However, just because your response was aimed at me, you didn't specifically say that I think I "know it all". I guess. However, I let my frustration color my response too strongly, and for that I apologize.
I do think it would be nice to have one of those 5% warnings though... Surely I've earned it by now? Nathan and Wally can't be the only ones! If I called you a Seahawks fan, would that be insulting enough for Admin?
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2020 15:10:39 GMT -5
And tell me why shouldn' t their financial situation be good?Of course nobody expects them to be paupers. But acknowledge it don't trot out the line we are poor and homeless. All Ministers don't own homes, the Church provides one for them and their family. Same situation, they just don't go on about it, as if it is a badge of honour. You will find that Ministers are much more active in pastoral duties, they do earn their stipend. Their stipend is a set amount and all monies are accounted for and reported to the congregation. I think you will find that most Churches don't have the hefty air travel bill that 2x2's have. That would be reduced at the moment, the Workers would have had their wings clipped. I've never understood why there is so much travel, but I guess the locals become bored if they have to be listen to the same ones all the time. Sort of bit like TMB, we only have one Worker and we could do with a new one. I agree redback. It's the dishonesty, the illusion that is what I find wrong. Just like their saying that they go back to the shores of Galilee. There is nothing wrong with them starting the group in 1897, just be honest. I bet everyone would have been accepting of it instead of finding out years later and feeling betrayed. Same with the homeless, broke illusion. Nothing wrong with them being taken care of and having money. Just don't come across as if they don't have anything. They have more than some of the friends do and don't have to worry about bills.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 15:17:26 GMT -5
Of course nobody expects them to be paupers. But acknowledge it don't trot out the line we are poor and homeless. All Ministers don't own homes, the Church provides one for them and their family. Same situation, they just don't go on about it, as if it is a badge of honour. You will find that Ministers are much more active in pastoral duties, they do earn their stipend. Their stipend is a set amount and all monies are accounted for and reported to the congregation. I think you will find that most Churches don't have the hefty air travel bill that 2x2's have. That would be reduced at the moment, the Workers would have had their wings clipped. I've never understood why there is so much travel, but I guess the locals become bored if they have to be listen to the same ones all the time. Sort of bit like TMB, we only have one Worker and we could do with a new one. I agree redback. It's the dishonesty, the illusion that is what I find wrong. Just like their saying that they go back to the shores of Galilee. There is nothing wrong with them starting the group in 1897, just be honest. I bet everyone would have been accepting of it instead of finding out years later and feeling betrayed. Same with the homeless, broke illusion. Nothing wrong with them being taken care of and having money. Just don't come across as if they don't have anything. They have more than some of the friends do and don't have to worry about bills. Time and time again, the thing us "bitter exes" find bothersome is not what other people are doing (taken at face value). The distasteful thing is claiming one thing, while doing another. It's hypocrisy.
On a more positive note, it was hypocrisy that infuriated Jesus as well.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 15:19:27 GMT -5
I disagree with the comment about integrity. One cannot have both beliefs that are crazy and in fact may be harmful if followed through with and integrity. In such cases they simply have a resolve that they alone are correct. I guess by integrity, I meant acting in a way consistent with beliefs. I examined my beliefs and discovered that I couldn't believe in the "one true way", nor could I financially or morally support people who claim to represent the "one true way" and yet generally don't actively seek lost souls. So, I changed the beliefs that had been reinforced since I was a child. That's not easy, as many here know, but the benefits are well well worth it. And I'm not an atheist (actively asserting there's no God). I have faith and hope, of a sort which wouldn't seem at all legitimate to someone holding a traditional professing worldview. So I’m not so sure where using nasty slander quite regularly against someone who may confront what one writes in a post, fits into all this Ipsedixit? ( I regret having to raise this again but) does that mean slander is part of the belief system? I personally can’t respect that. I’ve always enjoyed reading your perspective. Cheers.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 15:40:43 GMT -5
I guess by integrity, I meant acting in a way consistent with beliefs. I examined my beliefs and discovered that I couldn't believe in the "one true way", nor could I financially or morally support people who claim to represent the "one true way" and yet generally don't actively seek lost souls. So, I changed the beliefs that had been reinforced since I was a child. That's not easy, as many here know, but the benefits are well well worth it. And I'm not an atheist (actively asserting there's no God). I have faith and hope, of a sort which wouldn't seem at all legitimate to someone holding a traditional professing worldview. So I’m not so sure where using nasty slander quite regularly against someone who may confront what one writes in a post, fits into all this Ipsedixit? ( I regret having to raise this again but) does that mean slander is part of the belief system? I personally can’t respect that. I’ve always enjoyed reading your perspective. Cheers. Well, it might not be personal virtue or temperance, but I'm just looking at "integrity" as it's own quality. I don't know if slander can be part of a belief system...or if it's just a manifestation of a personality...that's a question I haven't considered. I wouldn't respect that as well, though I've done it too. (and I lose self-respect when I do).
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2020 15:43:30 GMT -5
My view growing up in the 2x2 way is that both workers and friends have a martyr complex. When I was embarrassed to go to school with dress hems below my knee when everyone else wore mini skirts, I was told I was suffering for God and would be rewarded in heaven. I used to think that if I ever got to heaven that I would push Jesus off his throne and sit there myself. I did. I thought that. I was a kid. Don't go ballistic. I used my babysitting money to buy cool clothes and left them at my friends house or at school in my locker. Changed into them when I got there and changed out of them when I had to go home. Of course there was the walking 2 miles to school and back everyday looking like an idiot, but I tried whenever possible to not look like my parents wanted me to look. When I was professing I conformed to the 'dress code'. When I quit professing I saw there was no longer a reason to pretend to be like them. I wasn't. A hard row to hoe and it felt like I was living a lie all the time, but I had to be who I was. Being an only child with elderly parents that were very fanatic even by the other professing families standards, I had to take care of myself. I grew up fast, I was shunned by a few, and I was considered a spoiled selfish person because I was adopted and 'how could I be so selfish and do this to your parents who gave you everything'. Had one of the friends tell me that I was the reason my mother got cancer later in life, 'because I had been so selfish she had to take medication to help deal with me that gave her cancer'. She took hormones to help with hot flashes etc. and the doctor admitted he gave her the wrong ones, but this wonderful Christlike lady had to try and guilt me and make it my fault. There were a few of the friends that came to me and apologized after I'd been out of home for awhile. They admitted that my father was fanatic even by their standards and that they knew it was a hard life for me. Even my aunt who was always telling me how selfish I was, apologized to me over and over for how she treated me. I think they finally realized that I was still a good person and that maybe just maybe it wasn't all my fault.
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Post by fixit on Apr 2, 2020 15:46:49 GMT -5
When they started out in late 1800s, they were truly poor. They also placed a heavy emphasis on actually spreading (their) gospel. I don't agree on principle with their message, but I respect them insomuch as they were accurately living out what they claimed. I know some workers enter the work under the impression they'll be doing just that. As irritated as I am with Nathan, I respect the fact that he is true to his beliefs. I think his beliefs are crazy, but I can respect his integrity. Your post reminds me of Alfred Magowan's testimony. He had parted ways with the ministry many years before he wrote the following... Tramp preachers did everything but sweat blood in the days of their going forth in strange lands, and without visible means of support. They knew what it was to live on raw turnips in Scotland, and on oranges in California. They also knew what it was to go for days without anything to eat; and I can speak with authority about it, seeing that I was one of them. We slept under the stars, in schools and churches and halls and empty store buildings -- with neither bed nor bed covering. We tramped through snow from morning to night in more than 40 degrees of frost. And, speaking for myself, I know what it is to have my tramp-preaching companion rub the frost out of a frost-bitten ear with snow. We were tramps by tramping, but we never begged. We were preachers by calling, but we never took up a collection. We worked in the daytime, when people were responsive enough to our preaching at night, to, asked (sic) us into their houses to eat and to sleep, We looked about to see if anything needed to be done on their premises or in their fields: so as not to be burdensome to them. I told Doug about Wm. Irvine saying to me in Jerusalem that it was A GREAT EXPERIMENT; and, as he says, he was amazed! I also told him that it was A GREAT EXPERIENCE; but he leaves that out. He said my life had been wrecked by the experiment; but he ought to have let me say so; and I never have, and never will. I would have considered that my life was wrecked if, when I was Doug’s present age in Detroit in the year 1907, I had done like one of our neighbours here. He went to Detroit a year or two before I did, and putting a few hundred dollars into Henry Ford's great experiment on wheels, drew something like a million out of it. And as there is not a man on the earth I would desire to change places with: it could hardly be said that I am dissatisfied with the course my life has taken. So instead of saying that it has been wrecked, I consider that it has been redeemed. Returning again to THE GREAT EXPERIMENT, which gave many hundreds of us opportunity to have a GREAT AND ABUNDANT EXPERIENCE OF LIFE, this was how it was: An experiment in faith that in forsaking the world and everything that was in it, and launching out on an unknown sea, we would neither founder by storms nor by losing our bearings to run on uncharted rocks. An experiment in following Jesus, free from all encumbrances whatsoever. Having nothing that we might learn how to possess all things. Turning away from all forms of religious and ecclesiastical climbing: scared into it perhaps by the dreadful things Jesus said in the 23rd of Matthew. So, come what might, we would never be guilty of taking any kind of title or honour -- considering that the world has not changed from what it was when He said it hated Him and dishonoured Him. We were determined to stand FOR all He had stood for, and AGAINST all that He was against. And considering His terrible indictment of the religious rulers of His time, which He ended in these very dreadful words "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" we would have been afraid to be like them in any outward or inward particular. So we dressed in workmen's clothes. and thus ensured that we would never get salutations for what is called "the cloth." And having seen how one of the strongest powers ever known in this world gained that power by going directly against what our Lord said in the simple matter of the use (or abuse) of the name "Father," we steered well clear of that shocking pitfall: having noticed that it meant going down and down to ever deeper depths of spiritual degradation, while (strange as it was!) rising to ever greater heights of ecclesiastical power and glory and monopolistic rule. www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/defence.php
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2020 15:56:15 GMT -5
So I’m not so sure where using nasty slander quite regularly against someone who may confront what one writes in a post, fits into all this Ipsedixit? ( I regret having to raise this again but) does that mean slander is part of the belief system? I personally can’t respect that. I’ve always enjoyed reading your perspective. Cheers. Well, it might not be personal virtue or temperance, but I'm just looking at "integrity" as it's own quality. I don't know if slander can be part of a belief system...or if it's just a manifestation of a personality...that's a question I haven't considered. I wouldn't respect that as well, though I've done it too. (and I lose self-respect when I do). Thanks Ipsedixit. A subject within itself. Self-respect & self reflection.
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