|
Post by Elaine on Nov 28, 2005 17:27:56 GMT -5
How much more plain can God's Word make this point, that "salvation is of the LORD" and not of man?
Thank you stranger for your words of wisdom.
If we believe otherwise then our "salvation" is void. No one is saved by believing a false Gospel and what God does for us through the Gospel is what must be believed.
God’s Sovereign will is not subject to any man’s ‘will’. God does not appoint eternal life to those who first choose him but the Scriptures say, "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48); "...And THE LORD added to the Church daily such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47). "It was the Lord Who did this. There was no power in man to do it; and the Christian loves to trace all increase of the Church to the grace of God. (God) caused, or inclined them to be joined to the Church....The word ‘church’ properly means those who are called out, and is applied to Christians as being called out, or separated from the world." God’s people are identified by the Scriptures as the ones who have been called out by God, not the ones who have called out to God.
|
|
|
Post by y we did it on Nov 30, 2005 1:20:39 GMT -5
Thanks for this graceworks thread.
I might dig out a thread posted awhile back, dealing with this, it was along the line of our actions [works] cannot be judged as ''right'' or ''wrong''.... What is paramount to what we do, IS ''WHY'' we did it.
In other words, if our motive/reason was pure/sincere, and right/godly......Then our action was virtuous.
I'll try to paraphrase ''Whatsoever is kind, true, pure if there be any virtue, think on these things.''
|
|
|
Post by Pinocchios Helper on Nov 30, 2005 11:34:30 GMT -5
Thanks for this graceworks thread. I might dig out a thread posted awhile back, dealing with this, it was along the line of our actions [works] cannot be judged as ''right'' or ''wrong''.... What is paramount to what we do, IS ''WHY'' we did it. In other words, if our motive/reason was pure/sincere, and right/godly......Then our action was virtuous. I'll try to paraphrase ''Whatsoever is kind, true, pure if there be any virtue, think on these things.'' This helps to explain about what all these 'works' are that we have been discussing; I was going to get back to that piece of it, and I see you already have. It's all about motive, isn't it? That is what I have been trying to convey...............'God's working manifested in us' will lead to 'godly works', I think. If we are motivated/driven by God and prompting of the Holy Spirit, the action is right and good. Our thoughts are such an important part of this, also.
Philippiansl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Are these some the same things that God loves?
|
|
|
Post by Mutual Love on Nov 30, 2005 13:34:00 GMT -5
The question is is (LOL) who does the keeping? Man or God? Have you thought that, perhaps, tis God who keeps man and causes him to keep and abide and not vice versa? "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. " "....according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power." "Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us" "Now to Him who is able to establish you..." "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy..." "He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach" The POWER is of God, not of man. :-) I think God wants to have a MUTUAL love relationship with His children.......this [to me] means that He won't force us to keep and abide with Him; but He is there to keep and abide with us.............He just wants to spend time with us.........but we are not always wanting to spend time with Him.........
|
|
|
Post by to Blue on Dec 1, 2005 0:18:14 GMT -5
it was along the line of our actions [works] cannot be judged as ''right'' or ''wrong''.... What is paramount to what we do, IS ''WHY'' we did it. In other words, if our motive/reason was pure/sincere, and right/godly......Then our action was virtuous. I'll try to paraphrase ''Whatsoever is kind, true, pure if there be any virtue, think on these things.'' This helps to explain about what all these 'works' are that we have been discussing; I was going to get back to that piece of it, and I see you already have. It's all about motive, isn't it? That is what I have been trying to convey...............'God's working manifested in us' will lead to 'godly works', I think. If we are motivated/driven by God and prompting of the Holy Spirit, the action is right and good. Our thoughts are such an important part of this, also.
Philippiansl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Are these some the same things that God loves? I think so. Thanks for printing them.
|
|
A Heart in the Right Place
Guest
|
Post by A Heart in the Right Place on Dec 6, 2005 12:25:20 GMT -5
"Where your treasure is, there your heart will be."
Somehow, I think this relates to MOTIVES. And we agreed that motives are related to works. What comes from the heart? There is no greater love than the love that comes from God.
I think of that saying "His/her heart is in the right place." And I think that this relates to his/her heart havng pure motives. A motive that springs from true love. This is hard, very hard, sometimes, as we are faced with the challenge AT HAND.
There is COMFORT in knowing that God has a plan for each of us and when we fit into His plan we will have peace and happiness now as well as later.........
Sometimes, the only thing we can do in the moment is patiently wait, yet continue on.
|
|
|
Post by Obtaining on Dec 6, 2005 14:53:49 GMT -5
quote: "Obtaining salvation is an oxymoron because it can't be obtained. It is given, by the grace of God."To obtain means to get, acquire, to gain possession of, to be established and/or prevail; exist, to hold; to keep [latin]. You can obtain something in different ways. By your own efforts or something can be given to you. Or a combination of both. A lot of people think that to obtain means ONLY through your own efforts. Do you think that we humans are not required to do anything special out of what God has given us?
What would be the point, then? What is our purpose for being here; for being given this life [by God's grace] in the first place? If it were simple and easy would it be as valuable? These are differing views on salvation....If we don't feel behooved to do anything with what God has given us, to me that's like throwing it right back into His face.
|
|
|
Post by good topic on Jan 18, 2006 17:22:57 GMT -5
And, as Alan pointed out, it's amazing how those who are not 2x2s seem to have such an acute knowledge about what 2x2s do or do not believe Hi there, graceworks I was "a 2x2" for many years and understood the teaching to be that it was FALSE to believe in salvation by the grace of God. I kinda wondered if there might be some change in thought amongst the f&w , and I think there maybe is some change happening all right, and that is good. However, as to where I got the "notion" that they do not fully embrace this yet, was at a fellowship meeting we were graciously invited to by some friends we were visiting. My wife and myself participated fully in meeting, but the head worker with "the last word" ~~~~ in the meeting , went to great effort to TOTALLY speak against and ridicule anyone who thought "salvation by grace", which, of course was us. (he knew us quite well~~~~) He went on to say that it is ONLY" through the servants of God" that one can get salvation and read verse after verse, (some completely out of context) to "prove" his point. (e.g.- Abraham got a bride for Issac through a servant ) guess, that would be one of the reasons I struggle with accepting , as fact, that the f&w group have now embraced salvation by grace teachings, since the leaders I know, do NOT believe that. Not so truly amazing, then, that MANY people VERY familiar with the group , can't quite believe that it is so, yet. However, it is great that some DO believe that, and we can all have hope that it will indeed, be the teaching , someday. However, it would COMPLETELY change MANY other teachings in the group also, since so much of what has been called "bedrock doctrine" won't mesh with salvation by grace. I can understand some of the resistance to this, especially by some who have "sacrificed" MANY things to "earn" salvation and then to consider it all,as Paul did, as filthy rags is NOT easy to do. Requires repentance- " to change one's mind concerning past action......to reform... a turning... " Seems like I also need repentance on a regular basis, and it is easier to just hang on to the "old" and"keep on keeping on", instead of allowing the Spirit to teach and guide us. Thanks for your posts, Alvin Thanks, "Al"
|
|
|
Post by ott to be good on Jan 18, 2006 21:21:50 GMT -5
quote: "
What would be the point, then? What is our purpose for being here; for being given this life [by God's grace] in the first place? If it were simple and easy would it be as valuable? These are differing views on salvation....If we don't feel behooved to do anything with what God has given us, to me that's like throwing it right back into His face. [/color][/b][/quote] There is a common saying that goes: there is NO such thing as a FREE lunch..... All through mankind history there has been a stigma attached to giftgiving as a 'bribery' tool, to control the behavior of the recipient.
Even the mythological story of sataclaus has the very strong conotation....that you NEED to deserve any gift that he gives. [IN other words, YOU BETTER BE GOOD].....well maybe that explains why he didn't bring me [or you ] anything this year, or last year, etc....
|
|
|
Post by to be good on Jan 18, 2006 21:23:51 GMT -5
quote: "
What would be the point, then? What is our purpose for being here; for being given this life [by God's grace] in the first place? If it were simple and easy would it be as valuable? These are differing views on salvation....If we don't feel behooved to do anything with what God has given us, to me that's like throwing it right back into His face. [/color][/b][/quote] There is a common saying that goes: there is NO such thing as a FREE lunch..... All through mankind history there has been a stigma attached to giftgiving as a 'bribery' tool, to control the behavior of the recipient.
Even the mythological story of santa claus has the very strong conotation....that you NEED to deserve any gift that he gives. [IN other words, YOU BETTER BE GOOD].....well maybe that explains why he didn't bring me [or you ?] anything this year, or last year, etc....
|
|
|
Post by got peace on Jan 19, 2006 1:20:49 GMT -5
quote: "
What would be the point, then? What is our purpose for being here; for being given this life [by God's grace] in the first place? If it were simple and easy would it be as valuable? These are differing views on salvation....If we don't feel behooved to do anything with what God has given us, to me that's like throwing it right back into His face. [/color][/b][/quote] There is a common saying that goes: there is NO such thing as a FREE lunch..... All through mankind history there has been a stigma attached to giftgiving as a 'bribery' tool, to control the behavior of the recipient.
Even the mythological story of santa claus has the very strong conotation....that you NEED to deserve any gift that he gives. [IN other words, YOU BETTER BE GOOD].....well maybe that explains why he didn't bring me [or you ?] anything this year, or last year, etc.... [/quote] All I asked for was peace and God delivered.
|
|
|
Post by thanks got peace on Jan 19, 2006 11:00:57 GMT -5
There is a common saying that goes: there is NO such thing as a FREE lunch..... All through mankind history there has been a stigma attached to giftgiving as a 'bribery' tool, to control the behavior of the recipient.
Even the mythological story of santa claus has the very strong conotation....that you NEED to deserve any gift that he gives. [IN other words, YOU BETTER BE GOOD].....well maybe that explains why he didn't bring me [or you ?] anything this year, or last year, etc.... All I asked for was peace and God delivered. hey, i'm not here to argue anymore....... does not PEACE have a 'price tag' ? for me it is TOTAL submission to HIS will......
|
|
|
Post by selah on Jan 19, 2006 11:41:49 GMT -5
Alan C. wrote:
Hi Alan,
I haven't read this whole thread, so maybe someone else has stated what I'm about to say. I think the confusion in this discussion is found in the tense of our references to "saved".
When I say I'm saved by the grace of God, I mean right now, in the present tense. I AM saved already. Of course He saved me even though I was not doing His will. He saved me the moment I asked Him to, even before I had a chance to start living for Him.
Now, because of His grace, I am overwhelmingly compelled by love and gratitude to do His will, and I'm enabled by the indwelling Holy Spirit that regenerated me at the new birth.
Sometimes people refer to "saved by the grace of God" as being what will happen in the future, after living a life according to His will. These ones believe that just because you live a good life does not require God to save (future tense) you, so if He does save you, it is still God's grace.
Does this make sense? I'm trying to understand the various perceptions.
Blessings, Linda
|
|
|
Post by I want to on Jan 19, 2006 13:33:23 GMT -5
All I asked for was peace and God delivered. hey, i'm not here to argue anymore....... does not PEACE have a 'price tag' ? for me it is TOTAL submission to HIS will...... Work out your[my] salvation.....with fear and trembling....
|
|
|
Post by sobering on Jan 19, 2006 13:35:47 GMT -5
If the righteous scarcely are saved, where will the ungodly be??
|
|
|
Post by mrtindrucvionging on Jan 19, 2006 23:41:36 GMT -5
To me there is a significant difference between Christian evidence being observed and admired .. and the 2x2 system of life style demands being made on folks as a 'membership fee'! (or as conditions to be met for 'full fellowship') Edgar Edgar, would you care to demonstrate those 'life-style demands' that need to be met in order to receive 'full membership'. ooops I mean 'full fellowship". thanx in advance;, edgar...::::
|
|
|
Post by mrtindrucvionging on Jan 19, 2006 23:47:04 GMT -5
Good works are a result of faith. Not in addition to faith. A dog doesn’t bark to become a dog. A dog barks because he is a dog. We do not do good works in order to be saved. We do good works because we are saved. They are a result of being saved. Good works is the child of faith. Not the companion of faith. Christ paid the FULL price. Not just a high one. The doctrine of works is deadly. Must we turn every post into some type of fullnes?
|
|
|
Post by changing socks on Mar 26, 2006 12:12:22 GMT -5
hmmm, is this an unchanging world we live in? Does the weather change? In context of the ''doctrine'', following scripture, I am always looking for the truth...... as we all are... God says He is an unchanging God.....so are you following some form of unchanging behavior that could entail others pointing out that changing socks would also be a sin..? ;D No, I do not believeit is a sin to change socks, never have thought so, as cleanliness is NEXT to Godliness imho.
|
|
Mr Tindrucvionging Unplugged
Guest
|
Post by Mr Tindrucvionging Unplugged on Mar 26, 2006 14:43:37 GMT -5
Replies #71 & 72 were not posted by myself. Just in case there is any confusion !
|
|
|
Post by bowhunter on Mar 26, 2006 16:12:27 GMT -5
The friends don't understand Grace for the most part.Here in the Midwest, the true message of grace has only been taught by Lyle Schober and a worker in south dakota.(as far as I know)I sat in meetings for 30 years and in several states and never heard it.Lyle came to visit us before our exodus and explained it while in my home.I heard that he preached about it at Antioch conv that summer.Then he was shipped to Minn.I assume he's teaching it there.He seemed to want people to understand the real thing.so I support him in that and hope others follow his lead.
|
|
|
Post by LaContessa on Mar 26, 2006 17:54:49 GMT -5
(Bowhunter) Would that South Dakota worker happen to be Richard Harbur? Thank you for mentioning the message being delivered to us by Lyle. Some other wonderful topics he has graciously tackled are...The Essentials for Salvation and Husbands and Wives and the marriage union. The fellowship I have enjoyed over the years here in Minnesota has helped me appreciate some wonderful teachers of message of Jesus who have been amongst us. Because of their leadership, I feel we enjoy a healthy attitude of the love that Jesus desired us to have toward souls of one another. Might I mention a few other's? Paul Lyons, William Lewis.
|
|
|
Post by HRL on Mar 27, 2006 10:30:14 GMT -5
The friends don't understand Grace for the most part.Here in the Midwest, the true message of grace has only been taught by Lyle Schober and a worker in south dakota.(as far as I know)I sat in meetings for 30 years and in several states and never heard it.Lyle came to visit us before our exodus and explained it while in my home.I heard that he preached about it at Antioch conv that summer.Then he was shipped to Minn.I assume he's teaching it there.He seemed to want people to understand the real thing.so I support him in that and hope others follow his lead. I would someday like to get into a serious discussion with you about GRACE. But, I need to do some more soul searching and meditation on it before I feel I am anywhere near able to approach it with you, MR. elitist bowhunter...?//
|
|
|
Post by post on Mar 27, 2006 15:10:21 GMT -5
The friends don't understand Grace for the most part.Here in the Midwest, the true message of grace has only been taught by Lyle Schober and a worker in south dakota.(as far as I know)I sat in meetings for 30 years and in several states and never heard it.Lyle came to visit us before our exodus and explained it while in my home.I heard that he preached about it at Antioch conv that summer.Then he was shipped to Minn.I assume he's teaching it there.He seemed to want people to understand the real thing.so I support him in that and hope others follow his lead. I would someday like to get into a serious discussion with you about GRACE. But, I need to do some more soul searching and meditation on it before I feel I am anywhere near able to approach it with you, MR. elitist bowhunter...?//
|
|
|
Post by Gracie on Mar 27, 2006 22:42:27 GMT -5
Me too!
|
|
|
Post by mmmmm on Mar 28, 2006 6:46:01 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by bump on Mar 29, 2006 11:36:08 GMT -5
The friends don't understand Grace for the most part.Here in the Midwest, the true message of grace has only been taught by Lyle Schober and a worker in south dakota.(as far as I know)I sat in meetings for 30 years and in several states and never heard it.Lyle came to visit us before our exodus and explained it while in my home.I heard that he preached about it at Antioch conv that summer.Then he was shipped to Minn.I assume he's teaching it there.He seemed to want people to understand the real thing.so I support him in that and hope others follow his lead. I would someday like to get into a serious discussion with you about GRACE. But, I need to do some more soul searching and meditation on it before I feel I am anywhere near able to approach it with you, MR. elitist bowhunter...?//
|
|
|
Post by mrtindrucvionging on Apr 14, 2006 21:12:25 GMT -5
The friends don't understand Grace for the most part.Here in the Midwest, the true message of grace has only been taught by Lyle Schober and a worker in south dakota.(as far as I know)I sat in meetings for 30 years and in several states and never heard it.Lyle came to visit us before our exodus and explained it while in my home.I heard that he preached about it at Antioch conv that summer.Then he was shipped to Minn.I assume he's teaching it there.He seemed to want people to understand the real thing.so I support him in that and hope others follow his lead. I would someday like to get into a serious discussion with you about GRACE. But, I need to do some more soul searching and meditation on it before I feel I am anywhere near able to approach it with you, MR. elitist bowhunter...?// Good graciousness! How many ways can we identify God's saving and giving grace? Let us count the ways. Can anyone identify something that happened to them recently that was NO DOUBT an act of sheer grace?
|
|
|
Post by quest on Apr 15, 2006 1:28:32 GMT -5
I would someday like to get into a serious discussion with you about GRACE. But, I need to do some more soul searching and meditation on it before I feel I am anywhere near able to approach it with you, MR. elitist bowhunter...?// Good graciousness! How many ways can we identify God's saving and giving grace? Let us count the ways. Can anyone identify something that happened to them recently that was NO DOUBT an act of sheer grace? , A much more difficult question, would be to identify something that was NOT an act of sheer grace. On the other question, I can count: health, life, sanity[?], food, air, homes, friends, enemies [ ], corrections, hmmmmm....... , thanx for reminding us of our 'blessings in disguise' , Mr. T.
|
|